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The morality of health care finance

21 Aug 2007 06:39 pm

I think this post wins the prize for boringest title ever. Also, it seems to be roughly one squintillion words long. But stay with me. This is important.

A post from my old blog on the morality of healthcare transfers has attracted an amazing amount of ire from the liberal bloggers and commenters flocking to complain about how evil I am. Most of them, in the course of criticising it, display what seems to me like an Olympic-caliber ability to miss the point. However, given how many of them did not understand what I was saying, it seems likely that I was more in error. Let me see if I can clarify.

There are some arguments that the market for health insurance is different and special, and therefore can be best provided by the government; I find those arguments unconvincing, for reasons I will explain another time. But that is not really an argument about the moral merits of the system; it is a claim about efficiency.

In discussing the morality of a single-payer system, those efficiency considerations are irrelevant. In discussing the morality, one thing matters1: who is made better off, and who worse off, by the system?

Most advocates of single payer, I think, care most about this justice claim. They may also think that they can make the system more efficient, but if one could somehow prove scientifically that a private system would be cheaper and better, they would still favor a public system as long as a substantial population remained uninsured.

But wholesale transfers to large classes, from large classes, are not good moral philosophy unless those classes are very well specified to the moral effect you are trying to achieve.

For example, we could take money from taxi drivers and give it to surfers. Some of the taxi drivers would be bad people who don't deserve their money; some of the surfers would be sterling chaps whom society has failed to justly reward. But still, we all2 recognize that this would be moronic, because virtue and vice are fairly randomly distributed within and between the two populations. There is no reason to think that on net, we would have enhanced social justice.

Now, Ezra's original post criticized Giuliani's health care plan on the grounds that it will transfer less money from young, healthy people to old sick people:


If you're healthy, a world in which Giuliani's plan was law would be a world in which it was economically foolish of you to purchase high quality, comprehensive coverage. And that would be fine -- for the healthy individual. But insurance works based on risk pooling. If our hypothetical 23-year-old only uses $10 of health care a year, but is now paying $80 rather than $100 for his plan, that's less money that can subsidize someone with a chronic illness.

This post makes what I think is a very common assumption among single-payer advocates.

A gigantic single-payer system is a pretty blunt instrument; it transfers money from one group, the young and healthy, to another group, the old and sick. It does not distinguish much more finely than that between the deserving and undeserving within that class. This is why discussions of particularly deserving or undeserving people within the larger class, such as your fine old Uncle Bob who served his country in two wars before becoming a minister, are irrelevant; as with the surfers and taxi drivers, almost any class we can specify will contain some very worthy members who deserve more from society than they have gotten. What we need to know is whether the class of old and sick people as a whole are much more deserving than the class of young and healthy people; whether our transfers do more good than harm.

Single payer advocates seem to invariably assume that the answer is yes. This is a natural reaction; the old and sick inspire our sympathy. But I am not sure that, as a group, they should also summon our sense of social injustice.

How do we decide which class is more "deserving"? Our intuitions offer dozens of ways, but I think these are the major metrics:

1. They are needy. The class we propose to benefit has greater need for the money than the class from whom we propose to take.

2. It's not fair. The class we propose to benefit has been unluckier than the class from whom we propose to take.

3. They are responsible. The class from whom we propose to take has in some way contributed to the problems we are trying to rectify.

How well do any of these describe the old and sick en masse?

Start with a stylised fact: most people who use a lot of healthcare do so because they are above the median age of the population. There are people with horrible congenital diseases, but there are not that many of them. Most people use healthcare because their body has been around long enough that something has broken down, or the law of large numbers has had enough time to deliver an unpleasant accident. As a class . . . let me say it again, as a class, they are sick because they have already lived a long life. Individuals within the class may have a different story, but if you are only interested in discussing a particularly unlucky, and small, subgroup, such as young people with cancer, then what we should be looking for is a transfer which benefits that subgroup.

As a class, are the old and sick needier than the young and healthy? No they are not. They have more assets and less poverty than any other group.

As a class, are the old and sick unluckier than the young and healthy? Considering people as beings with duration in both time and space, no they are not. The overwhelming majority of old and sick people were once young and healthy. They got to be young and healthy, and old and sick.

But consider the young and healthy as four dimensional beings. Some of them will not get to be old and sick; they will die young instead, which is worse than being old and sick. Weighing the bad luck of those with congenital diseases who never got to be young and healthy, against that of the members of the "young and healthy" group who will die young after paying a lot of money for someone else's healthcare, it seems likely to be, at best, a wash on the luck front.

Getting old is not, as many of my interlocutors seemed to believe, unlucky. It is, rather, inevitable--unless you're really unlucky, unlucky enough to die. The elderly have no fairness claim on the young.

As a class, are the young and healthy more responsible for the bad health of the old and sick? Quite the reverse. Many people in the old and sick category did nothing at all to deserve their fate; they just aged or were victims of fate. But some members of the "old and sick" class contributed to their fate. Contra many of my interlocutors, there are a lot of very expensive diseases that have a substantial lifestyle component: high blood pressure, coronary artery disease, diabetes, lung cancer, emphysema/COPD, congestive heart failure . . . many of our nation's biggest killers, and consumers of health care dollars. So as a class, the old and sick are somewhat responsible for their poor healthcare outcomes, although I will leave it up to the doctors to argue exactly how much responsibility they bear.

But even a small amount of responsibility for their condition obviates a justice argument for transfers, since the young and healthy bear no responsibility at all. A few members of the young and healthy may have contributed to the conditions of a few of the sick and elderly, perhaps by failing to get a flu shot, or driving dangerously. But it would be ludicrous to go after the entire class just to settle the liability of those few, like taxing the entire state of Oklahoma to pay for a car accident caused by one drunken Okie.

By none of these three standards, therefore, can I make a compelling case for taking money from one huge group of young healthy people, and handing it over to another huge group of old and sick people. Even if I leave aside things like property rights, coercion, deadweight loss--things I realise my liberal interlocutors aren't particularly concerned with, but my libertarian inquisitors will be--I don't see how the massive transfer implicit in single payer is justice-enhancing.

But I think many of those who read the post attributed to me a much broader claim that no government transfer would be moral. That is not so. I was questioning the moral justice of the enormous, blunt transfer between huge classes that is necessarily embodied in a single payer system, or at least one such as the versions of mandatory pooling envisioned by wonks like Ezra. Many people took that to mean that I believed there was therefore no moral argument in favor of caring for the sick. I confess that I'm surprised that someone like Scott Lemieux would make such an error, but as I say, perhaps I was unclear.

There is indeed a very compelling moral argument to be made in favor of some sort of government sponsored health care finance, which is simply this: no one should die, or suffer unduly, because they don't have the money to pay for treatment. Some of my libertarian readers will say that this still doesn't give the government the right to take the fruits of our labor by force, but in fact, I find this argument fairly convincing.

However, that doesn't mean that I should therefore be in favor of a single payer system. The fact that some people cannot afford some good, even a really important and valuable good like food or healthcare, is not a good reason to nationalise the production of that good. We do not collectivise the farms in order to ensure that everyone will have food; we give those who cannot afford food the money (or food stamps) with which to buy it. Section Eight vouchers are generally regarded as a much more successful system than housing projects (though arguably they could be better funded and structured.) If we are worried that some people cannot afford healthcare, there is a much simpler solution than constructing a giant government-run system; we could just give them the money to buy it.

Now, there are arguments against this: means testing benefits raises transaction costs, for example. But there is fairly compelling evidence that government purchases of goods and services do a better job of serving the poor than government provision of same3; and those targeted transfers really would be obviously justice enhancing (to all but hard-core libertarians). So the drawbacks to such a smaller-scale system would have to be pretty massive for me to endorse a single-payer approach.

1 To people who are advancing a social justice claim

2 Except maybe surfers

3 And no, that doesn't mean I think we should privatise the welfare offices; I am talking about buying things for which there are already robust private markets

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Comments (170)

Very well done. It is about time that someone made a clear and succinct argument concerning the morality and fairness involved in a single payer system. Sadly, Republicans have elected to argue against such a system only by reference efficiency/quality issues that are hard to quantify and generally involve suspect or anecdotal evidence. By arguing on these grounds, they have essentially ceded the fairness/morality/justice issue to the Democrats.

Reagan would have argued the issue on your grounds, and he would have won.

It seems that we've already made the decision for a large scale transfer to the old and the sick: we have Medicare. The old already have universal health care in the United States. They're all covered.

The question is how to deal with the uninsured, and most importantly the sick uninsured. These are the young and the sick (sometimes very young). Universal health care clearly has winners and losers, but we've already made the choice to transfer from the young to the old. Now we're talking about the cheapest way to go from the lucky (the healthy) to the unlucky (the sick), and when you look at other countries, it appears that universal health care is cheaper than our current system and covers all of the unlucky.

You're insisting on viewing the issue through a lens that isn't appropriate to the situation -- one that's designed to reach the libertarian conclusion you want to espouse. I might as well complain about the wealth transfer from consumers to producers, as the latter supply goods at a higher cost than their expenses.

It doesn't make any sense to talk about the old and young as classes that can participate in wealth transfers. Most people will be members of each at different times in their lives. Given the escalating cost of health care and the fact that currently-taxed young people will some day be old people receiving taxpayer-supplied healthcare, this is less of a wealth transfer than a mandatory investment — one that looks like it will have an excellent rate of return.

. Those people view single-payer primarily as a vehicle for providing health care to people they think are deserving, at the expense of other people whom they deem need the money (or in some cases, perhaps, the health care) less.

What is so incredibly difficult for you to understand about a moral responsibility for universal health care coverage? What is so hard to understand about the basic notion of morality that those who are sick should have the ability to receive appropriate care? I don't agree with the people calling you stupid. But if you think this

If we are worried that some people cannot afford healthcare, there is a much simpler solution than constructing a giant government-run system; we could just give them the money to buy it.

is a rational response to the moral imperative to use our available means to heal the sick, then I'm afraid they may be right. Saying we can "just give them the money" is an incredibly dull thing to say. Just give them the money? You think Section 8 amounts to the government simply cutting checks? That is a delusional vision of government, and, yes, as your critics have pointed out, it demonstrates either an inability to consider these issues with the necessary intellectual seriousness or a refusal to do so.

What's worse, I'm not convinced that you honestly do understand the moral imperatives at work here. You made it very clear in a Bloggingheads episode that you weren't particularly sympathetic when you dismissed 47 million uninsured as some sort of insignificant minority. And, on a personal note, someone who traffics in assigning moral blame to sick individuals for their illness is beyond deviant. Ugly, ugly, ugly.

And, by the way, your whole taxonomy of the old and the young and the sick and the healthy is just about the most confused, rhetorically bankrupt thing I've ever read, and I have to grad freshman papers. I mean really. That would get you flunked in a high school philosophy class. It's a tautological mess.

This post deleted for conflating liberals with socialists

How do we decide which class is more "deserving"? Our intuitions offer dozens of ways, but I think--

Oh, blow it out your ass, Howard.

"Someone who traffics in assigning moral blame to sick individuals for their illness is beyond deviant."


But... some people *are* to blame for their illnesses. If I end up with cancer in 20 years because I smoked all through my 20s, I suppose it would be unkind to make a big deal of reminding me that the condition is my own fault, but it would still be, you know, true.

"A gigantic single-payer system is a pretty blunt instrument; it transfers money from one group, the young and healthy, to another group, the old and sick."

But the young and the healthy will become the old and the sick (you may be too young and naive to realize this, and I pray cancer does not ever come to you). As such, it can not only be viewed as the young paying the old, but rather, the young paying their future older selves.

The young go in debt (school loans) with the knowledge that doing so will increase future earning potential. This is in an attempt to increase and optimize lifetime utility.

Healthcare can be viewed in a similar fashion. You pay more when your health costs are low, and receive more when your health care costs are high. think of it like consumption smoothing, only its healhcare cost smoothing.

If you dispute the optimization mechanisms of smoothing, then you'd have to throw out practically all the theories of neo-classical economics.

You can also make an anology for families, where the parents care for their young in infancy in exchange for the young looking after the parents in their later years (or will you just ship your parents far off in a home somewhere, ignoring them save sending a card on mothers day?).

You also conveniently dismiss to "explain another time," that single payer systems will decrease per capita costs through the tremendous reduction in bureaucracy. It doesn't say much for the efficiency of the market that 25% of the healthcare industry is dedicated to paperwork, not healthcare.

The healthcare discussion is an important and a complicated one, but your theories on how the poor young people (such as yourself), are being asked to unfairly pay the wretched old (which, if you're lucky and don't die young, you will become) is more an expression of the naivety and arrogance of youth than anything else.

Freddie said: "someone who traffics in assigning moral blame to sick individuals for their illness is beyond deviant. Ugly, ugly, ugly."

Well Freddie, all I see here is your refusal to address a claim of fact and a resort, instead, to namecalling. Now that's what I call ugly.

Megan made a claim of fact, namely that some sick people could bear some responsibility for their healthcare outcomes. In her words: "there are a lot of very expensive diseases that have a substantial lifestyle component: high blood pressure, coronary artery disease, diabetes, lung cancer, emphysema/COPD, congestive heart failure . . . many of our nation's biggest killers, and consumers of health care dollars. So as a class, the old and sick are somewhat responsible for their poor healthcare outcomes, although I will leave it up to the doctors to argue exactly how much responsibility they bear."

Either it is true that smoking contributes to lung cancer, and an unhealthy diet contributes to coronary artery disease, or it isn't. If it is true, then Megan's claim of fact is correct. She isn't ruling out other factors that bear on a person's responsibility for being sick, like genetics, but she is saying that there is some level of personal choice that can affect one's likelihood of being sick.

Instead of arguing with her about the factual basis of her claim, you just call her names. That's ugly.

Even with way too many words and the boringest title ever, you still miss the point. National healthcare is much more than just a big transfer from young and healthy to old and sick. For example...

I am old and healthy, making the best money I've ever made in my life. I'll be working full-time at least until I'm 75 or 80 to pay off my debts.

But two months ago I was old and sick. I had prostate cancer. Without health insurance, I'd be bankrupt, and maybe dead. With health insurance I'm back working again and paying my way. So by your calculus, I'd now be a victim of the single-payer system, just like you and the rest of the "young and healthy."

Ten months ago my wife -- who is 10 years younger than I -- had uterine cancer. Without health insurance we'd be bankrupt and she'd definitely be dead, given the circumstances of the illness. With it, she has been given the privilege of working and paying her way for another 25 years or so.

Sixteen years ago, my daughter developed a brain tumor. Without health insurance, she'd be dead and we'd be bankrupt. With health insurance, she's alive, and when she finally graduates from Harvard she'll be a statistician, making more than I make.

Not only does your line of reasoning lack moral value, it lacks logic and consistency.

Either it is true that smoking contributes to lung cancer, and an unhealthy diet contributes to coronary artery disease, or it isn't.

It is true, and I guess the logic is that younger people shouldn't be forced to pay for the medical care of older people, especially those who caused their own distress. By the same logic, those who are older should not be forced to pay for the education of children of younger people.

Millions of older Americans, without children, transfer billions of dollars annually to younger Americans with children to build schools, buy books and all the rest. Perhaps if they weren't forced to pay $8,000 a year for schools they could better afford their own health care. School taxes should only be assessed against those younger people with children. We can play this game all day.

Here is another fact. Even if you don't smoke, aren't overweight, exercise regularly, don't engage in risky behavior and avoid stress, you will become sick and die. And your medical expenses are likely to be astronomical.

But... some people *are* to blame for their illnesses. If I end up with cancer in 20 years because I smoked all through my 20s, I suppose it would be unkind to make a big deal of reminding me that the condition is my own fault, but it would still be, you know, true.

You are all taking an incredibly complicated subject-- the degree to which someone's illness is the product of their own behavior-- and talking as though there are clear lines to be drawn. There most certainly is not. To begin with, the idea that exposure to an individual carcinogen is directly responsible for cancer is flat wrong. There are many people who never smoked who contract lung cancer. There are many people who smoke for 50 years who never get lung cancer. Does one or the other deserve to get sick? It's a disgusting question.

The truth is, it is often impossible to pinpoint the "causes" of illness. Cancer, we are reasonably sure, has a genetic component. Many diseases have both genetic and environmental factors. And it is impossible to separate which environmental factors are responsible for individual illness. Lung cancer, for example, could be contributed to by airborne pollution. (Honestly, you could hardly have chosen a worse example than lung cancer.) The best oncologist in the world couldn't tell you precisely how a cancer came to develop in someone's system. When you widen your perspective to simple questions of general health and life span, you're making the distinctions even more difficult to understand. Some people who never drink or smoke and eat right die at 60. Some who do the opposite die at 85. What process, exactly, do you propose to sort out how responsible any individual is for his personal health?

Here's the answer: you don't make moral judgments about individual culpability for illness. I know that libertarians like to engage in self-promotion by demonstrating how "contrarian" they are, and in doing so lead themselves down truly reprehensible ideological paths. But we don't all have to follow you. I don't know, I think "don't blame people for being sick" is a pretty basic moral proposition. And I'm willing to bet the vast majority of humankind would support me in that. But then, we can't all be philosopher kings....

Among the things that's really bizarre about this post is that it assumes that single payer = single rate.

That may end up being the case, given the power of the AARP lobby. But it is entirely possible to structure a single payer system in which health care taxes vary by age.

(in fact, i could swear that the federal government collects another tax that has brackets in it. the ingo tax? outcome tax? oh yeah, income tax!)

while we're playing the morality game, it's worthwhile noting that as a society we have already made some very expensive commitments for moral reasons. 1) Everyone has access to emergency room care. 2) The very poor have access to Medicaid. 3) The elderly have access to Medicare.

Now, it would appear that Megan wants to revisit those commitments because of the responsibility of the elderly as a class for their current health crises and their access as a class to more assets and less poverty (*cough* social security *cough*).

But those of us who have basic logic skills at our command might recognize that the key way in which the elderly differ from the rest of us is that they are at the end of their ability to have the INCOME necessary to pay their medical debts.

Let's be blunt. The elderly have as a class some capital (often not all that liquid) and little income. For the elderly not to be seen as needy (compared to those of us who can borrow against future earnings), McArdle is arguing that it is appropriate for elderly to first impoverish themselves before getting the benefit of taxes paid by those younger.

I'd like to see if one of you brave, wise people (who have the courage to speak the truth to the ignorant masses!) is really such an abhorrent creature that they explain to an individual that they are to blame for their terminal illness. See it's easy when it's the non-specific-- someone with lung cancer. It's harder when you actually have to confront an individual who has a family and a life who is dying, yes, maybe because they smoke. That's worse than impolite.

And spare me the bogus distinctions between what people are responsible for and what they deserve. If you're going to make this kind of argument, and pat yourself on the back for your "honesty", then I insist you actually confront the consequences of your position.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

The problem with the entire thesis is: classes don't get sick. People do.

Classes don't break their necks falling off horses, get compound fractures skiing, develop cancer at 22, go blind from an unexpected case of meningitis at 24, or contract a freak tropical illness while traveling and end up spending a month in the hospital.

Sure, "As a class" 23-year-olds are healthier than 70-year-olds. But that's not a relevant way of evaluating the issue.

We live in a society. All of us. We make decisions about healthcare as a society, because we have to do it that way.

The 20-somethings don't get to opt for a different version (other than by moving to Canada). They either pay for health insurance - or they pray they don't have an accident or get sick, just like the 30-somethings and 70-somethings do. Because being part of a class that, on average, is much healthier than they are won't get them healthy again.

pobody wrote: It doesn't make any sense to talk about the old and young as classes that can participate in wealth transfers. Most people will be members of each at different times in their lives. Given the escalating cost of health care and the fact that currently-taxed young people will some day be old people receiving taxpayer-supplied healthcare, this is less of a wealth transfer than a mandatory investment — one that looks like it will have an excellent rate of return.

pobody...you can't deny that a wealth transfer is occurring and then go on to describe a garden-variety wealth transfer, while calling it something else.

An actual investment would involve the persons' own money, made available to the markets as productive capital, and then returned later with earned interest. A wealth transfer simply means money is taken from one person and given to another, which is exactly what Social Security does; is exactly what Meidcaid/Medicare does; and is exactly what the envisioned universal healthcare would do.

Banking one's hopes on being on the receiving end someday is foolish at best, because it relies on long-term population dynamics that are not only out of your control, but also trending in the wrong direction. For example, Social Security originally transferred wealth from about 30 contributing workers to one recipient. Due to improved healthcare and a number of other factors, people are living longer while fewer babies are being born; and the number of contributing workers per recipient is now down to about 5. Within my lifetime, it is expected to decline even further (provided the impending solvency issues do not result in fundamental changes such as means testing, which they most likely will).

If that's an investment strategy, it's a remarkably poor one -- or put more correctly, it's not an investment strategy, and nobody sensible would really call it one unless, say, they were trying to hide the details of a wealth transfer behind a screen of palatable language.

If that's an investment strategy, it's a remarkably poor one -- or put more correctly, it's not an investment strategy, and nobody sensible would really call it one unless, say, they were trying to hide the details of a wealth transfer behind a screen of palatable language.

Fine, you're right: it's not an investment. I was simply responding to Megan's dishonest framing of the issue -- when individuals will inevitably move between "classes", speaking in terms of a wealth transfer from one class to another is remarkably misleading.

If you must call it a wealth transfer, then it's a wealth transfer with the promise of a reciprocal, interest-added (so to speak) wealth transfer in the future. It's too bad we have to make this imposition on your liberty, but I think it's a hell of a lot better than leaving folks without medical care.

If you don't believe that our society will be able to make good on this promise -- ie, you don't think it'll be able to take care of its older citizens in the future -- then that has larger implications. I suppose we may as well just call the whole thing off, stock up on ammunition and hunker down in our respective compounds.

pobody wrote: If you don't believe that our society will be able to make good on this promise -- ie, you don't think it'll be able to take care of its older citizens in the future -- then that has larger implications. I suppose we may as well just call the whole thing off, stock up on ammunition and hunker down in our respective compounds.

You and that shark must be on a first-name basis by now.

There is no grounds for assuming that this debate must be a matter of 'all' or 'nothing', nor can you move forward by simply imagining that 'all' is possible and will be magically provided for somehow. That approach neither advances the debate, nor does is offer any usable policy directions.

Maybe it is society's responsibility to provide for specific needs, but society certainly cannot provide everyone with a turkey in every pot and a flying pony in every stable. So, the proper question is: What is a plausible middle ground solution, is it politically feasible to implement it, and do we actually have resources to meet it while mitigating the law of unintended conseuqences?

A couple of questions:

Isn't part of the point of single-payer that it pools the young and healthy with the old and ill in the same risk pool, so that the cost of health care services is reduced? Put another way, isn't one of the moral virtues of single-payer that it will reduce the health care costs for everyone? Isn't the moral virtue of single payer that it is the best kind of government action: that which uses market mechanisms to offer better services to more people at lower prices than would exist without government intervention?

Put yet another way: isn't the moral virtue of single payer that we each pay in more when we're young and healthy so that services are cheaper when we consume them when we're old and sick?

It seems to me that Megan is defining the moral case for single payer too narrowly.

We are not going to see a single payer system in the US because the insurance industry will buy off enough members of Congress to defeat it, just as it did with the Clinton health plan. What we will see, I think, is a universal coverage plan resembling the one in Singapore. In this plan employers who do not provide medical benefits will be assessed a fee based on the number of their employees, and the money from these fees and from tax revenues will be used to subsidize privately purchased insurance for those who do not receive insurance benefits from an employer. A plan of this type forms part of Senator Edwards' platform, Governor Romney helped enact a similar plan in Massachusetts and would probably try to enact it nationally if he wins in 2008, and even Mayor Guiliani has endorsed a version. I imagine Jane and people with her social views will oppose this type of plan also, but I'm convinced they'll lose.

"A gigantic single-payer system is a pretty blunt instrument; it transfers money from one group, the young and healthy, to another group, the old and sick. It does not distinguish much more finely than that between the deserving and undeserving within that class."

We already have this in the Medicare program, and that is not a sustainable program without major changes in either payroll tax rates, means testing or an increase in age for eligibility.

Though I agree with you on single-payer efficiency, I don't think your moral calculus holds up. Compare health care with the Fire Department: if your house is on fire, it's likely you share some guilt in the matter (as a member of the class of people with houses on fire -- some are just unlucky, to be sure, but not really unlucky, as they have a house to begin with), but we invest public resources to save you from this circumstance because your house is on fire.

Walter Scott gave a good response to this twaddle from Megan McArdle when he wrote "Oh, what a tangled web we weave, When first we practise to deceive!"

There's a very poor understanding among many commenters here about how insurance works. "Actuarially fair insurance" means that I pay the certainty equivalent of all risks to Guy X (an insurance company or government). Because I'm risk-averse, I get more utility from this certain payment than from a risky future with the same expected payments. Because Guy X "pools" thousands of people like me, he almost certainly will only pay out the certainty equivalent and therefore also bears no risk.

Imagine 1 million people who all have the same risks:
Risk Cost Chance
Cancer 100000 .01
Broken Arm 10000 .1
Flu 500 .5

The total expected health payments are .01*100000+.1*10000+.5*500=2250. Without insurance, someone might have all three ailments occur and have to pay out 110500. Probability tells us that the average person will pay out only 2250, and therefore insurers can offer insurance at that price despite the chance of paying out 110500. The pooling does not decrease average cost but merely spreads risk.

Insurance in health is often thought of quite differently. Here, we have two sets of 1 million people. The first has the same health risks as above. The second group has double the probability of each ailment. They therefore average 4500 in health spending per year. Everyone knows who is in each group.

National health insurance, without differentiated payments, would make both groups pay 4500+2250/2=3375. This is, in effect, a huge transfer of wealth from Group 1 to Group 2.

It gets even worse when we talk about moral hazard, which Freddie thinks we oughtn't do. If some people engage in risky activities (say, drink heavily, play rugby, don't get vaccinations, etc.), their expected health costs are higher than those who don't do these things. Making the payments equal for both groups encourages unhealthy behavior. Sure, we never know whether smoking gave someone lung cancer, but likewise a drunk driver may have crashed his car had he been sober. We don't typically think of this as an excuse.

As for the fact that the young will one day become the old, Megan points out that
a) this is not true, as some will die young
b) the old are part of history's richest generation, and are far richer per capita than the young
and
c) were quite aware that one day they would be old and they could have saved rather than consumed

If everyone wanted 70th birthday parties, it would be much more sensible to save while young to pay for that party than to force the young to pay for every party on the expectation that, some day, the future young will pay for the current young's birthday parties. That's a Ponzi Scheme, not an effective way of organizing society.

Megan McArdle writes:


By none of these three standards, therefore, can I make a compelling case for taking money from one huge group of young healthy people, and handing it over to another huge group of old and sick people. Even if I leave aside things like property rights, coercion, deadweight loss--things I realise my liberal interlocutors aren't particularly concerned with, but my libertarian inquisitors will be--I don't see how the massive transfer implicit in single payer is justice-enhancing.

This transfer is, of course, precisely the effect of Proposition 13 in California. It causes an enormous transfer of money from young healthy people buying houses today to old and sick people who bought their houses decades ago. Warren Buffet had the decency to point this out during the Gray Davis recall a few years back. I eagerly await a blog from McArdle suggesting, on justice-enhancing grounds, that California abandons Proposition 13.

Nice 10th grade essay.

Anyway, once you get to the people who didn't make poor lifestyle choices and still got sick you might find that the line you draw is pretty freaking arbitrary.

Also, Megan is very afraid of this logical conclusion to her argument: If we adopt her system, we must let people who purchase too little insurance for the level of care they need to live get sick and die. Any other response would be immoral, in her eyes.

She couldn't bring herself to say it after what, 1881 words?

So, instead she says this:

"There is indeed a very compelling moral argument to be made in favor of some sort of government sponsored health care finance, which is simply this: no one should die, or suffer unduly, because they don't have the money to pay for treatment. Some of my libertarian readers will say that this still doesn't give the government the right to take the fruits of our labor by force, but in fact, I find this argument fairly convincing."

Pretty much a refutation of the entire preceding argument - because the only way to get this to work is to have young people invest in health care for the old. But she can't seem to find any reason except it bad for people to die when we can afford to pay for it as a society - but somehow this is just too freaking wimpy or liberal or something, or maybe it just isn't mean enough of an opinion to hold. To me, its a perfectly good reason. Try saying it aloud: "I don't want people to die, if we can afford it."

And beyond that, there is another way to see this issue: It's an investment in your potential health care. Catastrophe insurance, if you will. Here is something - it is properly priced black swan health insurance. For the first time, you will be truly paying what you should be for insurance. Read the private policy - I have, and let me tell you, for very bad cases, you are screwed.

Thats right, if you see this as an investment in your own, potential future health care, you might freaking understand that yes, Megan, the only way to fund this entire system of decent health care is to have people who aren't sick pay for people who are sick. It must be this way. This involves the transfer you seem to argue against until this critical paragraph.

Damn the "moral hazard" of having people receive a "free put" on health care, just give it to them.

So many excellent comments here in response to the idiocy being peddled by McArdle and by the (usually more intelligent) Julian Sanchez that I'm not sure how much added value another one can bring. Freddie in particular at 7:59 was spot on. Another point Sanchez might want to consider: presumably the point of considering people's responsibility for their own health behavior would be to encourage better health behavior and thus increase overall population health and reduce the cost of the medical system. And yet it is transparently clear from any comparison of health care systems which rely on individual responsibility (like the US) against those which have universal coverage (like Europe) that the universal coverage systems are better, not worse, at encouraging better health seeking behavior and promoting overall population health, and at keeping the medical system's costs down. People in France, Germany, the UK, Canada, the Netherlands and Japan eat and drink better, exercise more, and go to the doctor earlier to treat routine problems before they become severe and expensive. Why? In large measure it's because governments are much better and more responsible about promoting national health and saving money on health care than individuals are.

One might try a traffic analogy: one would think that countries which treated safe driving as an individual responsibility, rather than a public one, would have more careful drivers. And yet places that have few traffic lights, lane markers, or police issuing tickets and revoking licenses (like India and Nigeria) have much more aggressive and risky drivers than do places like the US that treat traffic safety as a matter for government to handle. Libertarians find this a mystery, but nobody else does.

Well, props for the self-awareness that the earlier post was unclear. When you write that "the old and sick are already luckier than the young and healthy", people might think you are saying that the sick are lucky. Or when you say the sick are culpable for being sick because they didn't go to the doctor enough, without acknowledging that maybe they didn't go to the doctor because they couldn't afford it, people might think you are stupid. So let's call it a Learning Day.

I mentioned this on your old blog, and tgb1000 touched upon it, but I think you're forgetting that diseases are communicable. Under a single payer system, you're going to have the insured dropping dead of diseases that were allowed to propagate by the uninsured (TB immediately springs to mind). Also, the uninsured are going to exacerbate the rise of drug resistant diseases as, if they've scraped the cash together to see a doctor, they're less likely to be able to afford a second round of antibiotics if the first have failed. You're also going to find (as I did as an undergraduate when I visited the student health center) more doctors taking pity on them and prescribing precautionary antibiotics, instead of doing the costly blood work up. In short, single payer systems will increase the cost of health insurance (as we're going to need newer and newer and fancier and fancier drugs to deal with this situation) while decreasing the care.

How cure at 9:53 is wrong, a few samples:

The pooling does not decrease average cost but merely spreads risk.

In a fantasy word-problem world, perhaps. In the real world, pooling decreases average costs because:

a. health care providers are certain of being paid, and hence have no need to charge huge prices to some consumers to hedge against the risk of non-payment by others. The risk premium drives up total average prices, not to mention saddling those who can pay with staggering costs.
b. negotiators for immense pools of patients can and do bargain down prices with health care providers, whereas individual patients have essentially no bargaining power in health care transactions (unlikely to negotiate prices while bone still protrudes from arm, etc.).
c. Large pooled insurance systems raise the number of people who have access to any given form of care, resulting in economies of scale. As a limit case, in a 19th-century world where health insurance did not exist, only the rich ever got treated. Reintroducing that system would probably cut chemotherapy numbers by 50% or more, destroying economies of scale and making chemo that much more expensive.
d. In systems where insurers of small pools compete against each other, they naturally spend much of their time and money trying to figure out who to exclude from their pool. The costs of their efforts to exclude the sick from their pools are passed on to customers as rate increases. As a more general way to think about this, you have excluded from your word problem the cost of item number 4: all the activities of the insurer itself. (Not to mention item number 5: the activities of the health care provider required to deal with the insurer.) In the US these amount to about 25% of the entire cost of the health care system.

Empirically speaking, the prices of any given treatment fall dramatically when large insurers begin covering it. As an example, prices of IVF on the US's East Coast, where insurers rarely cover it, are nearly double those on the West Coast, where insurers often cover it.

If some people engage in risky activities (say, drink heavily, play rugby, don't get vaccinations, etc.), their expected health costs are higher than those who don't do these things. Making the payments equal for both groups encourages unhealthy behavior.

In the real world, countries with universal health insurance have better health-seeking behavior -- higher rates of vaccination, higher rates of prenatal care, better cavity prevention, lower rates of obesity, etc. -- than those that don't. Individual responsibility is an extremely poor vehicle for encouraging long-term healthy behavior. Think Russia (no public health care system left to speak of) versus France (universal public health care). Universal health insurance is part of a healthy societies; societies which have it take responsibility for their national health, while those that don't...get fat and sick. Like the US.

For example, we could take money from taxi drivers and give it to surfers.

Is this one of those "thought experiments" I keep hearing about? Ah, don't bother answering that. I'm just going to stop reading there, because it looks like a bunch of wanking to me.

I wonder what it is about Libertarians' brain that has failed to develop. An incredibly stupid post. Neither considerations of social justice generally (in the vaguest and most abstract terms you prefer) nor Ezra's points about single payer system have diddley squat to do with giving money to "deserving" people while taking it from "undeserving" ones. It's amazing to me that the Atlantic continues to inflict these morons on us.

I agree with the way you pose the question, but think that liberals (rightly) believe that universal healthcare does satisfy metric 1 & 2, and I would add a couple of moral considerations as well.
1 is satisfied because old and sick as a class are more needy -- or certainly would be if forced to absorb the full cost of their own health care; health care can be very expensive. So while the old (not so much the sick) are on average richer than the young, they would not be in a world without Medicare.
2 is satisfied in many to most cases, I don't know the statistics but I think liberals believe a lot of health problems are inevitable to pretty much random - fit people have heart attacks and non-smokers get cancer. Additionally, I think liberals (rightly) have the moral intuition that people should not always be made to bear the full cost of their mistakes. If some dumb kid jumps off a roof we are taking him to an emergency room (health insurance or no) even though he is completely at fault, because we don't think it is just for the kid to suffer the consequences of his dumbness when the cost to us alleviate it is less. The same goes for health insurance, yes, you shouldn't be 50 pounds overweight and you shouldn't smoke, etc., but that doesn't mean you should die rather than have us spend money.
Finally, I think that universal entitlement policies capture another important moral intuition - call it parts greater than the whole. To illustrate what I mean take Social Security. Now by the moral intuitions above Social Security is a bad idea - the old as a class are richer than the young, and bear a significant amount of responsibility for their retirement savings - as a class they are less worthy of a transfer. Nonetheless - we don't want even one person who really is too old to work to be too poor to retire - that is just cruel, whereas working class people paying between 8% and 16% of their income (depending on how much of what the employer matches would be returned as salary if SS ended) simply isn't. So even though the bulk of transfered money goes to people better off than the transferees - the transfer's universality makes a net moral improvement as the worst members of the recipient class would be qualitatively worse off than the worst and average members of the transferor class.

Now - you could say that we should transfer only to the individual "worthy" people rather than have universal programs, but then I think liberal objections would be more practical than moral. Mainly that the information gathering costs to determine the relevant "worthy" people + moral costs imposed by false negatives in that calculus + political costs in that universal programs are easier to get supported than targeted programs would outweigh any gains from having less transfers.

Like your writing though - congrats on your move to the Atlantic.

Might I quote: "...this post wins the prize for boringest..." but let's go all out: not just boringest title, but Hey! Ya! Nothing like an outkast from common sense to try and provide entertainment and fall way, way short...

Also, as an added bonus, this itty bitty bloggity wins points for stupidest: "But it would be ludicrous to go after the entire class just to settle the liability of those few, like taxing the entire state of Oklahoma to pay for a car accident caused by one drunken Okie..." when that's exactly what we do for legal infractions, as the entire state is responsible for the cost of prosecuting and incarcerating said thought-felon and yes, the taxes are incurred by the state. What about that?

Congratulations, Viriginia McBardle, you were in error in your earlier post, and you continue to keep falling down!

But wait there's more: we have a winner (whiner) for gratuitous use of buzzword gotchas: "A gigantic single-payer system", "collectivise the farms" and, hey, we'd be remiss if we didn't mention the whoring for insurance, "constructing a giant government-run system [let's just slip that in there one more time, darling Virginia -- ed.]; we could just give them the money to buy it." Whew! Giving more money to insurance companies is the good sh!t right there!!

Boring, wrong, and slutty: that's how I likes my posts!

Trying to look at the particulars of health care finance as a moral issue is tiresome in the extreme.

There's nothing more important than the consideration of moral philosophy, but something as dry and policy wonkish as health insurance should be reserved for the utilitarians.

In my view making sure everybody has robust insurance coverage via the use of taxpayer money just makes sense. It's not necessary to talk about justice.

If the US were to enact guaranteed, universal health insurance -- adapting the best practices in place throughout the rich world for use in America -- the country's wealthy would hardly be worse off, even if their taxes were to increase. If you don't believe this, ask rich folks in Australia or Denmark whether or not they enjoy high standards of living. They can afford to pay more in taxes. When you've got a lot of money you can afford things.

Middle and upper middle class people don't have much room in the family budget for higher taxes, but theirs wouldn't have to increase very much - and in some cases they'd come out ahead (I guarantee you some poor schmuck paying 1400 bucks a month for cobra coverage would be better off financially were he to pocket the premium and pay Ontario levels of taxation). And the freedom -- yes, let's call it by it's real name -- the freedom to never have to worry about losing your coverage, the freedom from job lock, the freedom to join an exciting but risky start up, the freedom from the threat of disease-induced penury, the freedom of knowing your children's health insurance can never be canceled -- the value of such freedom would be priceless to average people.

And, the poor, of course, would come out ahead with a robust system of universal health insurance -- no calculus required.

Oh, and lots of businesses would realize a net advantage, as well.

Let's keep it simple. Leave the discussions about angels and pinheads for the philosophers. The rest of us can debate and discuss costs and benefits.

Yeah, I didn't even want to touch this incredible bit of ignorance:

However, that doesn't mean that I should therefore be in favor of a single payer system....If we are worried that some people cannot afford healthcare, there is a much simpler solution than constructing a giant government-run system; we could just give them the money to buy it.

That is the definition of a single-payer system: we give them the money to buy it. McArdle is conflating the single-payer system with a national health care system. The former is like Canada; the latter is like Britain. You can pick either version, and still be in favor of guaranteed universal health care. For that matter, you can also be in favor of something else: a French-style system, which, in addition to a national-supported system, also has private health care institutions and private supplemental insurance. Or a German-style system, which puts more accent on the private elements in the mix, while also including a baseline universal insurance program to catch anyone who falls through the cracks.

It is really not a good sign for McArdle that she is still ignorant, at this late date, of all the various forms of universal health insurance systems in the world's other economically advanced democracies, all of which cost less than the US model, provide equal or better care (apart from a few narrow categories), and ensure the citizens of those countries that they will never go untreated for lack of funds. If she wants to have a blog on the Atlantic, she has to become literate in this issue. The best thing to do is just read Ezra Klein and accept his conclusions, because he knows what he's talking about and he's right.

I mean, I'm starting to wonder whether the "asymmetrical" in the title of this blog refers to the fact that the blogger has less information than the commenters.

I mean, I'm starting to wonder whether the "asymmetrical" in the title of this blog refers to the fact that the blogger has less information than the commenters.

Very funny, brooksfoe, and an apt interpretation of the foregoing discussion as well.

Megan wrote: However, that doesn't mean that I should therefore be in favor of a single payer system....If we are worried that some people cannot afford healthcare, there is a much simpler solution than constructing a giant government-run system; we could just give them the money to buy it.

brooksfoe wrote: That is the definition of a single-payer system: we give them the money to buy it. McArdle is conflating the single-payer system with a national health care system.

Isn't a single-payer system also a "giant government-run system"? Even if single-payer is one method of giving people money to buy healthcare, it seems perfectly consistent for Megan to prefer a less broad method.

I'm sure it's lots of fun to shout "ignorance!" and poke jokes, but I think you've misread what Megan has written.

I read the comments here and I'm struck by the consistently high level of smugness and condescension.

Welcome to the Atlantic, Megan. Enjoy the opportunity for being flayed by your self-appointed moral betters.

I'm sure it's lots of fun to shout "ignorance!" and poke jokes, but I think you've misread what Megan has written.

Okay. Describe for me how Megan's idea-- "we could just give them the money to buy it"-- doesn't amount to a) a single payer system, or b) a giant government run system. Even if she's not describing a single payer system, which I think she is, what precisely do you recommend as the mechanism for this check-cutting service?

I read the comments here and I'm struck by the consistently high level of smugness and condescension.

Welcome to the Atlantic, Megan. Enjoy the opportunity for being flayed by your self-appointed moral betters.

That contains not a word, of course, that actually confronts the arguments of the people who you are insulting. But then, it's easier not to, isn't it?

In a world of infinite resources, I am sure a single-payer system, aka "socialized medicine" would work fine. Alas, resources are finite and so must be rationed. In our current system this is done by money, in other systems by time. Check the waiting lists for operations in Britain, France, and Canada.
In addition, the well known adage, "he who pays the piper calls the tune" applies especially well in this context. I am not sure that I want the government telling me what I can and can't eat, drink, smoke, or do in my spare time. But that is what is already happening in other single-payer systems.
Regarding justice & morality, where is the justice in holding a gun to one taxpayers head to extort money to pay for a stranger's illness? If this is indeed your conception of justice, why stop at healthcare? Food, shelter, cellphones, TVs, and clothes are also deemed by many to be essentials so why shouldn't the government provide those as well?
Finally, let's stop pretending that we are talking any longer about health insurance-- if you can't choose the participants and adjust for risk it is not insurance, it is a massive means-tested entitlement program. For many in this group, that is not a bug, it is a feature apparently.

Check the waiting lists for operations in Britain, France, and Canada.

The idea that countries with universal heath care have significantly higher waiting times to receive medical care than the United States is utterly unsupported by data. The idea that there are not long waiting times for medical care in the United States is flatly wrong.

Sir Charles Trevelyan, the British civil servant in charge of efforts to relieve the Irish potato famine of the 1840's, believed that 'calamity must not be too much mitigated' because relief efforts would disrupt the normal workings of the economy. Although Ireland was a net exporter of food during the famine, Trevelyan opposed using it to relieve the misery caused by the famine because doing so would cause food prices to rise in England and he felt that it was unjust to harm part of the population for the benefit of others. An additional reason for his inaction was his feeling that the Irish, a "selfish, perverse and turbulent" people, were unworthy of help.

Nice work, Megan. You're channeling one of the 19th century's worst human beings.

It's hardly worth anyone's time slogging through and correcting the willful misinterpretation and ascribing of bad motive by The Atlantic's commentariate, but I'll offer one point.

Freddy said, "Someone who traffics in assigning moral blame to sick individuals for their illness is beyond deviant."

Leaving the word "moral" aside (did I mention "willful misinterpretation"), there is a huge industry that traffics in assigning "blame" to sick individuals -- the life insurance industry. You don't even have to smoke (or scuba dive) to pay a higher rate. You just have to get older.

Maybe life insurance is evil and should be quashed. But for now it is a legal and widely utilized service.

Life insurance is not the same as health insurance, but its acceptance does suggest that assigning cost ("blame") to people for their own health issues is NOT inarguably "deviant."

Interesting argument, but only really applies to Medicare itself, not to universal care. "Old" sick people get Medicare already. The desperately poor (the unproductive 'undeserving' needy) can get care from Medicaid or our highly inefficient free clinic/emergency care system.

The uncovered group is the working poor, what maybe used to be called the middle to upper lower class. They are a) needy - they have less access to health care than the rest of us. (I'm assuming most readers here are middle class and up). They are b) unlucky - they work hard, but lack the talent and/or education the middle class has. The question of responsibility is harder, no one, strictly speaking, is at the end of the day responsible for their 'plight' of being poor. But two out of three ain't bad. Financing it without mucking up incentives is the issue.

From a pure efficiency standpoint, even if socialist medicine is inefficient, it may well be less so than the existing system. At least in that case, only the health care system is messed up. In our current system, the employer-based health care regime distorts labor markets (raising equilibrium hours worked per employee and lowering per hour wages, both for labor demand reasons(employers want fewer workers going longer hours, to minimize health insurance premia) and labor supply reasons (it is riskier to change/leave jobs, because it often leaves an uncovered 'gap' in coverage between expiration of one employer's plan and the initiation of the next), which in turn distorts every other market in the marketplace.

Think of socialized medicine as a kind of quarantine, isolating an invariably disfunctional part of the market from the rest to minimize contagion. (Think we aren't distorted, now? We have a retail market where no one either markets based on price or even posts prices, and where cash business pays considerably more than business which involves more paperwork. That is just absurd.)

It gives a pious sense of self-satisfaction to declare that there are no classes but only cases, and insist that we can warn folk against smoking but are monsters to then ascribe any portion of ensuing lung cancer to their agency. Well, unless we're governments, in which case we're perfectly willing to ban behaviors that run up our health bills, suggesting that governments have a rather more robust conception of medical cause and effect. They may perfectly well allow that your Aunt Hettie smoked cheroots until she was 114, but they recognize that in the aggregate, smoking will increase your odds of lingering, expensive sickness. And with universal health insurance, the aggregate is the only thing that matters.

It would also be nice to see a little less preening ad hominem and a little more substance to some of the critics. I know that the vast majority of posters here have skulls that bulge with the incandescent lightning of the gods, but the ones who make substantive criticisms might win a few more converts if they took the "Evil Overlord Berating Minions" filter off their keyboard.

Well, unless we're governments, in which case we're perfectly willing to ban behaviors that run up our health bills, suggesting that governments have a rather more robust conception of medical cause and effect. They may perfectly well allow that your Aunt Hettie smoked cheroots until she was 114, but they recognize that in the aggregate, smoking will increase your odds of lingering, expensive sickness. And with universal health insurance, the aggregate is the only thing that matters.

You and your side consistently use the example of lung cancer, because as we all know, smokers deserve to die horrible deaths and burn in hell. The fact is, though, that it is simply medically impossible to determine the level of responsibility that any individual has to his illness. How on earth are you going to police that? How on earth are you going to draw those kinds of delineations? (And why is the aggregate the only thing that matters? Oh, right, it helps you leverage your argument.)

It would also be nice to see a little less preening ad hominem and a little more substance to some of the critics.

What's good for the goose....

I'm curious about this odd "morality" that I keep reading about in the comments in which it is moral to force people to pay for the unluckiness of others. I thought the moral position was to advocate personal charity and compassion towards others who are unlucky. Not to allow individuals to get off the hook by claiming that their moral responsibility has been taken care of by huge government-run wealth transfers. I guess I missed that Bible verse in which Jesus told people to give extra taxes to Ceasar so they could ignore their fellow man and feel simultaneously smug about it.

And the freedom -- yes, let's call it by it's real name -- the freedom to never have to worry about losing your coverage, the freedom from job lock, the freedom to join an exciting but risky start up, the freedom from the threat of disease-induced penury, the freedom of knowing your children's health insurance can never be canceled -- the value of such freedom would be priceless to average people.

That's not freedom, that's security. And I'm sure everyone here knows the old proverb about freedom and security.

I'm off to call State Farm to cancel my auto insurance since it transfers money to bad drivers. For the same reason, I won't be replacing it with another policy.

Brad:

McArdle wrote: there is a much simpler solution than constructing a giant government-run system; we could just give them the money to buy it.

brooksfoe wrote: That is the definition of a single-payer system: we give them the money to buy it. McArdle is conflating the single-payer system with a national health care system.

Brad wrote: Isn't a single-payer system also a "giant government-run system"? Even if single-payer is one method of giving people money to buy healthcare, it seems perfectly consistent for Megan to prefer a less broad method.

The only daylight between "we give them the money to buy it" and "a single-payer system" would be a system like the French or German ones, where the government ensures a baseline level of insurance for all citizens. The German model is essentially Medicaid for everyone, with better-off people buying supplemental insurance. In other words, "we give them the money to buy it" means, at a minimum, Medicaid for everyone. If single-payer insurance is "a giant government-run system", then in what sense is Medicaid-for-everyone -- or, for that matter, today's Medicaid-for-some -- not "a giant government-run system"?

It's important to keep in mind that single-payer systems put less than 3 percent of the entire health care system's budget into payment and assorted management issues. Our current system puts, as I said, about 25% of the entire health budget into those issues. So this "giant government-run system" is a tenth of the size of the giant, incredibly wasteful private system it would replace.

Moreover, a government agency which sends money only to those who can't afford to buy health care themselves has to be LARGER than one which simply pays everyone's bills, because it needs to have a bureaucratic system for determining who can't afford to buy insurance. An agency that just accepts receipts and pays bills for everyone has much less overhead.

All of these issues are very familiar to anyone who has looked seriously at health insurance policy. There are reasons to prefer non-single-payer systems, like the French and German ones, but these reasons have nothing to do with what McArdle said, which was incoherent and self-negating. And to 'boldface', I'm sorry if this sounds "condescending", but people who have no idea what they're talking about deserve to be condescended to.

A moment of silence for the poor, shattered wreck of the straw man before me. He was set upon brutally and without warning, having had no part in the dispute until his sudden savaging. May he rest in peace.

That said, let me spell out slowly the premise that a government which is obligated to pay for all sickness will discourage or prohibit behaviors which they believe to increase its expenditures. I like to think that this is not a controversial premise.

Organ transplants are a case in point. Right now, there's something of a scandal in South Africa over the minister of health alledgedly receiving a liver transplant while declining to curtail her alcohol intake. Normally, if you are a heavy drinker, you simply will not receive a liver transplant, whether or not you'll die without it. The doctors not only know "how to draw those kinds of delineations", the delineation they draw is that they will let you die if you don't go off the sauce.

Therefore, there already exist cases in which a limited health resource is rationed in part by patient behavior, even to the point of countenancing death. Those who believe that this is a grave injustice are advised to think about why these doctors want heavy drinkers to "burn in Hell", and are so heartless and money-grubbing as to refuse to transplant a liver into them.

[ Posted by Walter Crockett | August 21, 2007 7:40 PM
Without health insurance, I'd be bankrupt, and maybe dead
Without health insurance we'd be bankrupt and she'd definitely be dead
Without health insurance, she'd be dead and we'd be bankrupt ]

And without a store to sell bottled water before going into the desert you would have been in a heap of trouble in your walk. But there was and you're still here.

Didn't you just describe what insurance does? Provide you money for events that would normally be economically hard?

And would you have been dead? Not that I would try it out but there are programs for healthcare for those that can't pay.

Well, unless we're governments, in which case we're perfectly willing to ban behaviors that run up our health bills, suggesting that governments have a rather more robust conception of medical cause and effect.

CardinalXimenes, that is EXACTLY THE POINT. Governments can promote healthy behavior through pre-emptive, preventive action that applies to everyone. This is fair, just, and effective: no one is allowed to smoke in public places, no matter what their genetic background is. Trying to accomplish the same aim -- healthy behavior -- by forcing those who engage in the behavior to pay for the devastating consequences, if they happen to be vulnerable, is empirically ineffective and unjust. Most people did not quit smoking because they knew what the consequences were; they quit because government action makes it increasingly difficult for them to continue.

Look: most people, for both genetic and character reasons, can get along just fine with a moderate heroin habit. The health effects are far less damaging than smoking or alcoholism -- no comparison, really. We could just legalize the drug, warn people of its risks, and let those who are vulnerable to severe heroin addiction suffer the consequences of their bad behavior. But you know what? That would be cruel and, from a public health standpoint, idiotic.

[ brooksfoe 10:30AM The health effects are far less damaging than smoking or alcoholism -- no comparison, really. We could just legalize the drug, warn people of its risks, and let those who are vulnerable to severe heroin addiction suffer the consequences of their bad behavior. But you know what? That would be cruel and, from a public health standpoint, idiotic. ]

So you're a nu-Temperancist then? What's your criteria for not making into law your beliefs of what makes for good living ?

You are all taking an incredibly complicated subject-- the degree to which someone's illness is the product of their own behavior-- and talking as though there are clear lines to be drawn. There most certainly is not.

Can't the same thing be said, Freddie, for the relative success of business decisions, or scientific research, or education and career choices, or whatever other speculative activity we may engage in?

We cannot begin to comprehend the immensity of chance shaping our lives. But even so, smoking today seems a lot like opening a buggy whip enterprise in 1950. We don't feel super obliged to bail out the latter kind of bad decision, not even because tons of people make wise business decisions and still end up bankrupt.

I thought the moral position was to advocate personal charity and compassion towards others who are unlucky. Not to allow individuals to get off the hook by claiming that their moral responsibility has been taken care of by huge government-run wealth transfers.

Christina, you are suggesting that by paying my taxes and desiring that they go towards guaranteeing my fellow Americans will never lack health care, I am trying to "get off the hook". In fact, I would like to pay MORE taxes if they would go towards ensuring that no American goes without health care. (According to polls, most Americans now agree with me.) I do not want my fellow Americans to have to rely on the unpredictable whims and moral tics of others in their hour of need; I want them to have the same sense of security and freedom as people in, say, France. You are saying this makes me an immoral person. I think that refusal to extend this solidarity to fellow citizens would make me an immoral person. Do you understand why I consider your attitude insulting?