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Are high prices as good as a Pigouvian Tax?

20 Sep 2007 04:28 pm

Free Exchange takes Felix Salmon to task for writing this:

Greg Mankiw must be happy: Oil just hit a new high of $81.24 a barrel this morning. This is a Pigovian tax with the proceeds going to Saudi Arabia rather than the US Treasury, but if Mankiw is right that a carbon tax would reduce carbon emissions, then these high oil prices should be instrumental in reducing oil consumption, carbon emissions, and, ultimately, the pace of global warming.

On the other hand, if demand for energy does not fall appreciably as a result of these stratospheric prices, then the whole basis of a carbon tax is disproved, and Mankiw will have to throw his weight behind a cap-and-trade system (with auctioned rather than allocated emissions rights).

As Free Exchange writes, this is not quite correct for several reasons. First, Mankiw advocates a carbon tax, which would cut down the use of things like coal that are much worse for the environment than oil. Second, a Pigouvian tax is meant to price into the product the negative externalities of its use. It doesn't matter how high the price of oil is; a carbon tax would make it even higher, and thus have more effect. Moreover, these prices may not be high enough to produce an efficient reduction. And finally, oil demand is fairly inelastic over the short term, but much less so over the long run, as people invest in conserving technologies and rearrange their commutes and other energy-intensive activities. The long reactive lag is what lulled OPEC into a false sense of security in the early eighties, with disastrous results for their governments when the price finally plummeted. It will be some time before we can assess the full effect of these prices on consumption, if indeed they last.

But there are other reasons that I think this doesn't quite work, even though I toyed with this notion a few days ago. First of all, if the price increase is reflecting the fact that oil production has basically peaked, as some observers have argued, then in essence we have a cap and trade system on oil. Assuming, as I think is reasonable, that India and China will not accede to any sort of global regime, there will be no carbon-reducing benefits to implementing the kind of regime that Mr Salmon favors. Rather the reverse, in fact; India and China use oil much less carbon-efficiently than industrialized countries do.

But a Pigouvian tax could still be useful. As an energy correspondent of my acquaintance was fond of saying, carbon taxes make sense not just environmentally, but because they redirect money from some of the worst regimes in the world. A tax takes money not just from American consumers, but also from Hugo Chavez and assorted nasty Middle Eastern regimes.

I know what you're thinking--a chart! Why doesn't she give us a chart?

Oh, all right, my little chickadees, but it's the last time . . .

OilTax.jpg

It's a simple chart, with the price on one side, and the quantity on the other. Like always, demand slopes down, with people wanting to consume less as the price rises, while suppliers want to sell more.

At time zero, the market clears at P0, which purchases S0 units. Then we impose a tax, which raises the price to PTax, and reduces the quantity consumed to STax. The oil producer, however, which used to earn [P0 X S0] now gets the same price for a smaller quantity sold, earning only [P0 X STax]. If the taxes collected are rebated as reductions in other taxes (admittedly a big if), American consumers are not much worse off--not at all worse off, in a larger sense, as long as the tax has correctly priced the negative externality (admittedly, another big if). But Iran suddenly has a lot less money to spend on nuclear weapons.

Comments (41)

Re: "Assuming, as I think is reasonable, that India and China will not accede to any sort of global regime, there will be no carbon-reducing benefits to implementing the kind of regime that Mr Salmon favors. Rather the reverse, in fact; India and China use oil much less carbon-efficiently than industrialized countries do."

That also applies to a carbon tax. India and China probably will not implement such a tax. At the margin when Europe and perhaps the US implement such taxes you tend to shift production of energy intensive goods from developed countries to places like India and China, where producing the same goods may require more energy, or require energy that produces more CO2 from using sources like low quality coal.

Question: if the tax is rebated so that each person's total tax burden doesn't change, why would the oil tax reduce demand? I have the same amount of relative dollars to spend on gasoline, so why do I care that the price is increased?

I actually read the bit at the end of Felix Salmon's post as being a bit tongue-in-cheek, but that may just be me.

It's also worth noting that cap-and-trade and a c-tax work more or less the same at a high level. In both cases, you try to calculate an ideal level where the price of the reduction equals the avoided public harm. In the c-tax scenario, you use this number determine how much to push the supply curve out by adding a tax, in a cap-and-trade, you make the supply curve vertical at this point (if quantity is on x). In either case, you're trying to generate the same equilibrium price and quantity and the extra money collected per unit of carbon emissions should be the same.

When you get into the detail, they pose different set of problems in terms of how the process can be derailed, what happens when you estimate wrong, etc, but they're pretty equivalent theoretically. Both methods have their own problems, so I don't really have a strong preference for either.

Megan McArdle wrote: First, Mankiw advocates a carbon tax, which would cut down the use of things like coal that are much worse for the environment than oil.

That ain't right. Most of our coal consumption is going into electricity production, because nuclear still isn't popular here and the US is well endowed with coal deposits. Most of our baseload is coal-fired and any artificial price increase in the cost of electricity will lower your standard of living across the board, and as Tim Folwer already commented, in the long term it will simply force even more industry to go overseas to places like China, which don't give two figs what they have to burn or how cleanly and efficiently they do it in order to make another buck filling up a Wal-Mart shipping container.

So: Reduced standard of living, no net change in carbon emissions...color me unimpressed with the logic at work here. It would be nice to see nuclear regain footing in the US, but any sea change in our generation profile is a minimum of about 30 years out -- assuming the siting, engineering, and permit-seeking for the next generation of nuclear plants begins tomorrow morning. If that is to be fast-tracked and we don't care about hurting people, then let's try subsidies and a federal overriding of the most agrressive NIMBYs, rather than a poorly thought-out carbon tax that will hurt everybody.


Steven - IRe: "if the tax is rebated so that each person's total tax burden doesn't change, why would the oil tax reduce demand? I have the same amount of relative dollars to spend on gasoline, so why do I care that the price is increased?"

Even if all the tax is rebated it probably would not be rebated to each individual in the exact amount that he or she spends. It would be a flat amount per person, or some percentage of their incomes tax, or maybe some amount adjusted by their income, but it wouldn't be the same exact amount they spent.

Steven,

It will only be neutral on taxes at an aggregate level, not for each individual person, as the only way to make it neutral at the individual level is to cut the gas tax.

Of two people in the same scenario except one of them has a more elastic demand for what is being taxed, the tax burden for the guy with a more elastic demand will decrease relative to the guy with the less elastic demand as the guy with more elastic demand cuts back more.

What is being recommended is that it is revenue neutral with regard to ex-ante or equilibrium positions. In the first case, you tax burden is the same after the tax if you continue to consume the same amount of gas, but it goes down if you consume less. In the second, the new tax is calculated based on estimates of how you will react to it so that your tax burden after you've cut will be equal to your burden before but if you don't cut, it will be higher.

Tim Fowler makes a good point in this comment. What do you do if a country refuses to implement these taxes you think are such a great idea?

I'm hardly an expert on economics, but I am an expert on law enforcement and the use of force. Talking about forcing other countries to conform to your idea of what is right is problematic at best. What are our options if they don't want to get with the program? Invasion?

Those readers who do view the world through an economic model are probably rolling their eyes right about now. What about economic sanctions? Military force is unnecessary if the bad guys get hurt on the bottom line, which is the point of advocating the tax in the first place.

The only problem is that sanctions have a spotty record, even if viewed in the most favorable light possible. Castro still controls Cuba, for example, and it took an invasion to topple Saddam. Heck, Saddam even managed to bribe the very people who were supposed to enforce the sanctions!

The only way that any of these pie-in-the-sky schemes that say "Let's impose restrictions on a global scale!" would ever work is if we first created a world wide armed force. It would have to have not only a law enforcement branch with jurisdiction stretching over every single inch of the planet, but it would also have to have the military might to defeat the armed forces of every country if they decline to cooperate.

I dunno, Megan. I always thought the Man From U.N.C.L.E. television show was fantasy.

James


I won't debate the essence of the chart.

However, I am not at all thrilled with the idea of a P-Tax, unless the mandate for such a tax is directed OUT of the government's hands and control, and directly used to pay Income Tax rebates (or other taxes that the Poor Folk would pay). My hunch bumps tells me that under any scenario, the Big Government folks will make out at the expense of us, The Public.

The bureaucracy to do this would eat up more money, which gets us back into the (I Want to) DO Loop that starts with raising a 'good' (Carbon, in this case) tax, the coerced money goes into the government coffers (General Fund, to some), then it is either used to fund the favorite new entitlement program of the politicians with power (not energy, but it could still be Pork), and driving The Public into using less gasoline > depresses businesses relying on gas use, or it gives a healthy shot of inflation into the system because they'll have to raise prices to cover costs which > increases to tax receipts because you're now getting the same or worse service at a higher cost > another shot of inflation...

Since the oil producers (include those rascally Big Oil types) have been working on raising 'acceptable' gas prices on us for the last 5 years (look at the raise and fall of prices over time), human nature will tend to get used to that price and then their usage will creep back up. Of course the extremists will advocate more taxes to make it hurt The Public even more, yadda yadda...

Quite depressing, Megan.

I am being blocked from posting on the pigouvian tax discussion for the usually reason so I am trying my luck here (I hate the ghost in the machine).

The reason why an emission tax works is the following:

Retail energy prices are composed of 3 things:

1. Production
2. Transport
3. Last mile

Take coal - which is next to nuclear currently the cheapest base load with 3-6c / kWh production cost. Let's introduce a tax of 50% on it for the environmental externalities:

Before
3c production + 4 cent transport + 4 cent grid (last mile) = 11c / kWh retail price

After tax:
3c production + 1.5c tax + 4 cent transport + 4 cent grid (last mile) = 12.5c / kWh

In other words - a 50% environmental tax will increase consumer prices by only 13%. Not a good reason to run to China for production (and IF - then it is NOT a good industry to be in for an intellectual capital economy to begin with and should have moved to China a LONG time ago?) This is why I am in favour for an emission tax..

BTW- there is only ONE known energy source that can be deployed local and that does not require long-distance transportation and the last mile - but that energy source has no emissions and does not need to be taxed.. that is why it also carries the cheapest retail price during peak hours that we know of.. can you guess which one it is? PS: I used to be in favour of nuclear energy until the 90s due to its emission free qualities. But then a technology which is only 10 years younger than nuclear has reached an economic tipping point and since then nuclear does not make any economic business sense anymore in comparison..

But as I have stated many times before… I do not think it is a good idea to introduce CO2 taxes unless one has also discussed the fact that we are currently subsidizing CO2 substantially. Livestock agriculture (the WORST CO2 emitter on the planet) gets almost $20 billion in tax dollars per year. This is insane. We are not going to pour $20 billion per year into needless CO2 production only to tax some commuters for a total of $5 billion? Their driving is far less dangerous than their burgers, milk-chocolates and café late.. They need their car much more than they need their chocolate milk cookies. Look at Paul Newman and Clint Eastwood (vegans) – Newman’s Own cookies are made of palm fruit oil and not butter. Even their Butter Popcorn are NOT with butter.. Clint Eastwood, Paul Newman, Marlon Brando, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Ronald Regan for president!!!

We need to tax meat (it consumes 1/3 of all petrol for fertilizer) and milk products or we need to stop burning our tax dollars on saturated fats and CO2? I have NOT seen this discussion ONCE and it is driving me mad..

The cough that one gets from smoking is NOT the real danger.. make the market transparent and THEN play around with taxes? (without some vague but honest CO2 accounting in place – taxation will be.. funny?)

I forgot to mention the most important point.

The emission tax should motivate utilities to invest in green, distributed, local production and away from coal.. not to disturb the consumer (aka demand)!!!

If done in a smart way - the energy consumer (industry, commercial, residential) does not feel any changes at all... only the producers do.

As I mentioned before - there are plenty of economic and business reason to be excited about the future. For the first time in decades we HAVE technologies that are cheaper than coal and as emission-free as nuclear (only without the dangers)! The future is bright?

"... The oil producer, however, which used to earn [P0 X S0] now gets the same price for a smaller quantity sold, earning only [P0 X STax]. ..."

Actually the oil producers will get a lesser price as the reduction in demand will cause the pretax price to drop. The pretax price is determined by where the Stax and S curves intersect.

Here is my question:

Demand along the demand curve drifts from Q-0 to Q-Tax. From a supplier perspective however, they are still producing initially at S-0.

Since taxes are applied to all sorts of products, I guess my uneducated question is this:

Initially there would be over-supply of gas, since demand would drop while suppliers would continue to produce at Q-0 until excess gas became known within the gas producer industry. Wouldn't this surplus result in a decline in the base price of gas, reducing the impact of the tax?

But at that point, the surplus would decline until some form of equilibrium is met, no? So could someone explain to me how demand/supply curves work when Supplier gets X and Consumer Pays X+1. It seems to me, that in these cases, curves cannot work, since you technically can never come to an equilibrium price, since the price for supplier and consumer are always different.

James,

There wouldn't be any change in demand with a carbon-tax. There would be a change in the quantity demanded. But, the demand curve wouldn't shift. Unless of course I'm totally wrong.

Demand curves shift for reasons other than the price of the item.

The following are the reasons for a demand curve shift (in general)

(1) Wealth Increase in Consumer within the market

(2) Change in price of replacement/subsitute goods.

(3) Increase in income (related to wealth)

(4) Consumer Tastes - if consumers go green, and try to use alternative fuels, the demand curve for fuel will shift left.

(5) Consumer Expectations of price changes (i.e. - if consumers expect an increase in prices, they will demand more of the goods in the current period ~ mostly applicable to non-consumable goods)

(6)Change in the Number of Buyers ~ an increase shifts the curve right, decrease shifts curve left.

Brad hit the nail on the head. What if oil is going up now because demand curve shifted to right. Then prices going up wouldn't mean consumption goes down. In fact it would mean more consumption than before at higher prices. Felix didn't understand this and Megan forgot to mention it.

Brad asks: Since taxes are applied to all sorts of products, I guess my uneducated question is this: Initially there would be over-supply of gas, since demand would drop while suppliers would continue to produce at Q-0 until excess gas became known within the gas producer industry. Wouldn't this surplus result in a decline in the base price of gas, reducing the impact of the tax?

It is not clear yet on what "all sorts of products" the tax would apply. This is why I am asking about livestock agriculture and oil, etc. To me it makes the most sense with coal..

and yes - one might experience a short-term oversupply. But that does not mean that the price for coal can drop below the cost of getting coal out of the earth and converting it to electricity. Most coal miners face very low margins already - in contrast to oil - most coal reserves remain in the ground. In other words - despite a "possible" oversupply in the short run - prices for coal will not drop drastically and NEVER as much as they increase due to the emission tax!

Oil is another issue completely. Who cares if the oil price might drop for one hour when it will continue to raise for the rest of the day.

There is NOT MUCH oil left... over-supply or not - the prices are going ONLY UP. Unless of course we switch to greener alternatives before we have destroyed Alaska?

Hope that answers your question Brad? At the end of the day - one has to look at the specific characteristics of "product being taxed" and ALL market distortions (like the subsidies that I have mentioned)..

PS: Say you were in the oil business in the US and KNOW that the future is stormy. What is the BEST thing that could happen to you? A war that sends prices up over night WITHOUT society being able to adjust to other energy sources! The LAST thing that you would want is socio-economic stability as this would not make you much profit? Either way - NOBODY benefited as much from the Iraq war as did Russia and other oil producing nations with smallish and expensive reserves? If you are in the oil business - you are praying for wars and no time to change suppliers?

But what makes you even MORE money than a war which sends oil prices up? I tell you what - having a farm in the US!! $20 billion per year shared among a handful.. now THAT is a GOOD business to be in - one that even oil cannot match. We pay out more money to a handful of rich US farmers every year than Gasprom has turnover... and these farmers produce MORE CO2 than gasprom, much more!

Since the oil producers (include those rascally Big Oil types) have been working on raising 'acceptable' gas prices on us for the last 5 years (look at the raise and fall of prices over time), human nature will tend to get used to that price and then their usage will creep back up.

falkoyn, could you please just take a second to check these ideas against available real-world data? BTUs consumed per dollar of GNP fell enormously in the US starting in 1974, after the first sharp rise in gas prices. It nearly flatlined in the late 80s and early 90s due to low oil prices, and began dropping again in the late '90s as prices climbed. All told, the US economy is about twice as energy efficient now as it was in 1970.

Similarly, the fact that the British and the Japanese are the world's most efficient energy users per dollar of GNP is related to high gasoline taxes in those countries. Europe, with a PPP GNP roughly the same as the US's and much higher gas taxes, emits half the CO2 the US does.

Just as the laws of economics dictate, higher prices really do result in less demand.

I take issue with the diagram, because it's based on a competitive market where the supply curve is equal to the marginal cost of production. Thus, with a negative externality the market price is "too low" (i.e., below the marginal social cost) and hence the pigouvian tax brings the price up to the socially efficient level.

However, the market for oil is far from competitive. It makes more sense to think about OPEC as a monopolist. As is well-known, the monopolist restricts output beneath the competitive level and sets price above marginal cost. Thus, it is not self-evident that the price of oil is too low, and a Pigouvian tax equal to the external cost of oil would result in inefficiency, with too little oil being produced at too high a price.

Obviously, if the goal is to reduce the profits of oil producing nations then any reduction in the price they receive would help. But you could just as well argue that the use of oil should be banned in the US, so as to shift the demand curve to the left. Such a policy may be welfare-reducing, but so would a pigouvian tax.

Can you edit your post and graph so that they're correct? As James B. Shearer said above, the price received by the producer under the tax is not P_0 but rather some P_1(

Can you edit your post and graph so that they're correct? As James B. Shearer said above, the price received by the producer under the tax is not P_0 but rather some P_1 that's less than P_0, where the S_tax vertical line intersects the old, underlying, supply curve. Similarly, the producer's revenue under the tax is P_1 times S_tax, not P_0 times S_tax, as you write. The point is the same, of course, but details matter...

What about the incentive to produce technologies that aren't oil burning. My, admittedly cursory, review of the state of technology for cars seems to indicate we're just a couple years from mass-producible plug-in hybrids. Would an increase in the price of my electricity bill (with added p-tax for the coal burning plant) not just incentivize me to look closer at those solar panels? I once thought that the price of gas would have to approach $5/gal to get a change in behavior out of most Americans. Now I think that figure is closer to $7/gal (which, BTW, is about where it's at in the UK and many other countries at current exchange rates). Tax away....it will hurt, but only in the short-run as innovation creates much more efficient ways to live our lives the way we wish.

Michael

What about the incentive to produce technologies that aren't oil burning...

finally a good question... taxes would do that but only implicitly. There are better ways but nobody here dares to discuss spending? Like US politicians - so are the citizens?

I liked the New Republic article on this matter?

I think instances where the real world differs from the ideal diffuses the value of this tax strategy somewhat.

It's assumed that all oil is bought and sold in the same market with perfect flexibiity. It is not quite so. The biggest oil suppliers to the US are the US itself, Canada and Mexico. While Iran will see some lost profits, they will not be hit as hard as US producers. The most convenient customers for Iran's oil are India and China - the least likely to implement a carbon tax.

I think there would be a point of diminishing returns on consumption reduction. Once you get below domestic refining capacity(~80% of current consumption), refiners are faced with the choice of finding cost effective export markets, letting refining capacity sit idle or dropping price to maintain sales. Still, that's about a 20-25% reduction of domestic consumption before that happens.

Are you still talking about "oil"?? Why? Are you sitting on one of the few remaining reserves? Do you own Gasprom stock? What is it with you and "oil"???

The question is - how can we keep people from using "coal"? Oil will be gone tomorrow - coal has enough reserves for covering 100% of energy demand for almost 60 years or until the atmosphere has vanished? Or - the question might be - how can avoid building expensive nuclear plants? How can we avoid the needed grid improvements? But "oil"?? What about it?

My vision is that once "oil" is gone (tomorrow) -less people will use it and prices will stabilize? But it might be just a hunch...

BTW - Njorl - do you know this?

'Are you still talking about "oil"?? Why? Are you sitting on one of the few remaining reserves? Do you own Gasprom stock? What is it with you and "oil"???'

Well, I usually talk about the topic posted.

There are advantages to moving from oil to coal. There are the geopolitical ones mentioned by Megan, but also environmental ones.

Oil is burned in decentralized locations - cars and houses. It is not readily amenable to carbon sequestration techniques. It is not rapidly replaceable by other sources. New coal plants are designed to be replaceabl by other energy sources.

Let's be realistic. Little is going to be done about global warming until serious repercussions are readily aparent. The way we use oil - in homes and cars - can not be eliminated quickly. The way we use coal - to generate electricity - can be eliminated quickly. There is a real chance that a crisis could hit before oil is priced out of the energy market by scarcity.

Hugo,

What's your problem with coal? Why not, instead of replacing an item which you clearly agree we have plenty of and its relatively easy to get for cheap, we develop cleaner ways to use it?

Yes, it would be nice if we could all have a flying car and teleportation devices.

But the main thurst of our research should be to lean how to better use what we currently have, rather than making people think "Giving up coal" would be a wonderful choice without the being responsible for a variety of terrible terrible consequences.


Hugo - Even a small tax will at the margin push some production to untaxed areas. Its not as if there is no shift with small increases than at some level everyone shifts. Increasing someone's cost by 13% might reasonable cause them to shift.

Also if the effect really is to small to cause a shift to other countries than it may be too small to cause a reduction in CO2 use with production remaining in the US.

At any likely level for a carbon tax, some companies will change very little, others will continue production here while reducing CO2 emissions by changing their processes, others will just produce less, others will go to places where there is no tax or where the tax is lower, and others will go out of business and have their production taken over by places with lower or no taxes on CO2.

The exact balance between all these different alternatives is somewhere between hard and impossible to figure out beforehand, but it seems clear that some production will shift overseas, whether by companies moving, or by companies producing less of tings that result in a lot of CO2 emission,(either cutting back and staying in business or going out of business, or changing their business to produce something else). Whether there is a relatively small shift, with the CO2 reduction in the US more than making up for the increases elsewhere, or a large shift with the opposite occurs is something we can only speculate about.

Even if there was no shift caused by the CO2 taxes, rapid industrialization in places like China and India, could easily swamp any CO2 reduction in the US.

Sabetoto:

great point. The price received by oil producers would be where S-tax intersect with the supply curve.

This answers my question. You now have equilibrium in quantity, and you can quantify the difference between what consumers pay and producers receive.

Hugo: Wherever do you get the idea that 1/3 of petrochemicals are used to produce meat?

The EIA has copious data about end-use of energy, and I see no reason to believe that anything approaching a third of petrochemicals are used in food production.

The only vaguely similar looking number I've found is on some peak-oiler sites (which in turn are based on other similar sites and the same few "researchers", leading me to laugh heartily), claiming that 31% of an estimated 400 barrels per person per year is used for fertilizer.

But notice the huge difference - 31% of the expenditure of oil on foods vs. 31% of the total petrochemical stock.

If you have some serious numbers on this, I think we'd all be interested in them, since the idea that meat (or even food) production uses 1/3 of all petrochemicals is novel in the extreme.

(Oil won't be gone "tomorrow". Or in a few decades.

And nuclear power is good; I don't know what your magical alternative is, since you said "guess" rather than "it's this", and your attempted link was broken later on. But nuclear power is clean, safe, and abundant, if we bother to use it.

Nor will oil "destroy Alaska", and sadly I can conclude only massive ignorance or intent to deceive as a reason for stating that it would. I'll assume the former, as it's more common.

I suggest a map of Alaska compared with a map of the proposed sites of oil production in ANWR. Even if ANWR exploration was a disaster, environmentally, which seems unlikely from previous Alaskan experience, it couldn't seriously harm the whole state.)

Michael W wrote: What about the incentive to produce technologies that aren't oil burning. My, admittedly cursory, review of the state of technology for cars seems to indicate we're just a couple years from mass-producible plug-in hybrids. Would an increase in the price of my electricity bill (with added p-tax for the coal burning plant) not just incentivize me to look closer at those solar panels?

And now we get back to the doctrine of trade-offs. Do you have any idea what kind of environmental impact goes into the manufacture of a typical whole-house solar generation system? An extensive amount of mining, followed by semiconductors, glass, metalurgy, plastics, sometimes ceramics, and lots of nasty chemicals are involved. And the bulk of the manufacturing will take place in areas of the world which do not care about your pretensions to carbon footprints, in exchange for a system with a net conversion efficiency well under 50% during the first ten years of its service life (and declining further thereafter as the panels and batteries wear down), so guess what...same net environmental outcome, and your solar panels are essentially a fashion accessory.

There's a reason systems of this sort are generally in use only by environmental aesthetes and persons who are a long distance from the lines: economies of scale dominate everything else on a modern power grid.

"Question: if the tax is rebated so that each person's total tax burden doesn't change, why would the oil tax reduce demand? I have the same amount of relative dollars to spend on gasoline, so why do I care that the price is increased?"

Steven: Why would you spend all of your extra money on overpriced gasoline, instead of cutting back on fuel and spending some of it on things that haven't gone so high? You might even use it for a more fuel-efficient car, better insulation on your house, or a video conferencing system that replaces travel.

If China and India don't comply with a carbon tax, we could compensate for that with a tax on imports from them. Properly applied, this tax would approximately equal the carbon tax they weren't paying on items made there for sale here, so there's no net advantage to outsourcing there as compared to before the carbon tax.

Did I just invent the Pigouvian import duty?

Did I just invent the Pigouvian import duty?

If so, permit me to uninvent it: the biggest emerging market for Chinese production is...China. If present trends continue, China is well on its way to producing a consuming middle class that will sustain demand for its own output. The tariffs for entering the American market won't change the carbon output of China, and when China finds some creative excuse for engaging reciprocity, Americans will be hurt further.

Jeff Westcott:

"There wouldn't be any change in demand with a carbon-tax. There would be a change in the quantity demanded. But, the demand curve wouldn't shift. Unless of course I'm totally wrong."

From the supplier's point of view the demand curve for pre-tax oil shifts down. From the buyer's point of view the supply curve for after-tax oil shifts up. So producers produce less oil and buyers use less oil maintaining equilibrium.

"As an energy correspondent of my acquaintance was fond of saying, carbon taxes make sense not just environmentally, but because they redirect money from some of the worst regimes in the world."

Why should Norway and Canada (not to mention, the United States) get punished for the sins of Venezuela and Saudi Arabia? If the goal is to punish bad regimes, a carbon tax isn't a precise weapon.

and when China finds some creative excuse for engaging reciprocity, Americans will be hurt further.

Posted by anony-mouse

Reciprocity? If we were practicing reciprocity with China in the first place, most imports from there would be banned already.

Hello Sigivald (longest post ever?).. and others,

I would be the first one to admit that I have been vague on many issues (the conjunctive applies because others have already pointed that out). I think it was rather childish mischief than ignorance but I would like to make up for it. you are are all intelligent debaters. it is my own loss if I stay ambiguous and lose out on an issue that is very dear to me and which I take very seriously. Apologies!

However – you have been rather vague yourselves and I do not blame you as the scope allows so?

Some have argued that a tax would not achieve much.. that it would send manufacturing abroad? Or that it would harm the economy..
Others say that we have good energy sources such as nuclear and coal..
Others say that oil is either not running out or that consumers will not switch to alternatives quickly.. yes - good fragments... what does the puzzle look like?

Who has tried to present a real (holistic) approach (not solution at this stage)? Yes nuclear is emission free and cheap so why are we not using 100% of it? Why have we NOT built a single plant in 30 years? The topic is complex and it is difficult to find context – let alone consensus? Why has nobody discussed IF we need some form of CO2 accounting in place before applying taxes? I mean - I was tempted to be sneaky myself?

Currently – we are pulling in different directions. It is never clear if we are talking about national or global issues other than the given fact that warming is global and affects everybody.

For example – I mentioned that meat is responsible for 1/3 of oil consumption (without stating if i meant globally or in the West..) I was hoping for this statement to be provocative – because I am aware that not many people have yet thought about it.

When we talk about energy consumption in the US – the general split applied by utilities is by customer segment and NOT by application.

For example: industry, commerce and residential consumers use up roughly the same energy in the US. (In the EU, I believe that industry uses more than residential consumers. but that is a marginal difference when compared to the rest of the world where industry is the main consumer.)

However – the energy consumption of the West reaches far beyond their borders. I do not mean that the US imports of barrels of oil from Saudi Arabia or Brazil do not show up – they do. But we also import meat (or feed) from Brazil – more meat than the average Brazilian consumes. In order for that meat to be produced there - land has to be cultivated (3-10 times more land is required for 1 calorie or 1 g of full protein from meat than from vegetables/fruits). In order for the land to be cultivated – forest must go, fertilizer must be used, machines are applied, and trucks, ships and planes for transport. Refrigeration is also an issue. All this energy is used up before the burger patty crosses the border to the US. (please bear in mind that even in the civilized West we are only animals who eat, drink, breath in order to live. What do we do when we get up in the morning? We eat eggs, ham, bacon, milk, butter,.. after a digestive break we move on to lunch.. another digestive break which we fill with making money to go to a restaurant where we have dinner and eat.. what? sometimes the things that are closest to us – like our faces – are the things that we see and know the least (like where our daily food comes from)?

How should economic and ecological transparency arise like that?

THIS IS WHY one could read all over the newspapers recently that once in the US - walking to the supermarket and buying meat is worse than driving to the supermarket and buying vegetables.

But let me elaborate on only one small part of the livestock-cycle in order to avoid further vagueness (the oil needed for agricultural machines, trucks, slaughter, cooling, cooking is more easily understood). The UN (via the Food and Agricultural Organization) informs us that:

Nitrogen is essential to plant and animal life but only a limited number of processes can convert it into reactive from for direct use by plants. This shortage of fixed nitrogen has historically posed natural limits to food production and hence to human populations. However, since the third decade of the twentieth century, the Harber-Bosch process has provided a solution. Using extreme high pressure plus chemicals, it became the primary procedure responsible for the production of chemical fertilizer (which is either used IN the West or FOR the West). Every time you buy non-organic vegetables or animals – this chemical fertilizer has been applied.

The Haber-Bosch process now produces 100 million tons of nitrogen fertilizer per year, mostly in the form of anhydrous ammonia, ammonium nitrate, and urea. 1% of the world's annual energy supply is consumed in the Haber process (but consumed by only a few). That fertilizer is responsible for sustaining 40% of the Earth's population (the West+), as well as various deleterious environmental consequences. Now – what is the fertilizer made of? Again – petrol..

When you consider how many miles cars/trucks/machines drive for producing fertilizer, land, feed, animals, processing, refrigerating, cooking, etc.. one reaches staggering numbers and a very high ecological footprint. E.g.

“It takes, on average, 28 calories of fossil fuel energy to produce 1 calorie of meat protein for human consumption, [whereas] it takes only 3.3 calories of fossil-fuel energy to produce 1 calorie of protein from
grain for human consumption.”
— David Pimentel, Cornell University

The transition of world agriculture from food grain to feed grain represents a new form of human evil, with consequences possibly far greater and longer lasting than any past wrongdoing inflicted by men against their fellow human beings. Today, more than 70 percent of the grain produced in the United States is fed to livestock, much of it to cattle. —Jeremy Rifkin, Los Angeles Times,
27 May 2002

IF we were to build a vertical / horizontal matrix by customer segment AND application – we would find that indeed about 1/3 of energy and oil is used for (AVOIDABLE) livestock agriculture (all 3 customer segments are involved: farmers, shops, households and restaurants). THEN we would have to split it up by geography! Because how will a CO2 tax on oil and coal tackle the oil and gas consumption FOR the US in Brazil for meat? The US imports FEED and BURGERS but NOT OIL!

There are two good reports on this issue (UN and WorldWatch). Given all this – I think that it makes sense to ask why we in the US are pouring $20 billion of tax into the hands of a few farmers and what it means in terms of CO2 emissions?
http://www.fao.org/newsroom/en/news/2006/1000448/index.html
http://www.worldwatch.org/node/1670

We would all have to agree on how the market forces work, who the suppliers are and who the consumers are (as well as the products and services involved) in order to paint a picture of our organic energy flows?

My claim is that once we did this – we would see that the best thing that the US could do is to share currently asymmetrical information with business men – informing them that there are cheaper sources of energy than oil/gas/coal/nuclear etc and that there is PROFIT to be made as long as people drive prices for energy high by clinching to old paradigms that are running out daily. As I have argued before – I share the sentiments of the New Republic.
http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20070924&s=nordhaus092407&c=1

I will follow up and explain how I see the different energy sources in comparison but I have to … eat! then I will try to argue that solar power is the most underrated technology today given its versatile advantages. We all think to know the disadvantages – expensive, inefficient, works only during the day.. well there is much more to it (like oil/gas - it CAN be used/stored locally). And we do not seem to know the real (economic) DISADVANTAGES of say nuclear, coal, oil.. other than CO2 is bad and we could tax it..?

For those who are really interested: Solar Revolution - presented by Microsoft Research:
http://www.researchchannel.org/prog/displayevent.aspx?rID=7757&fID=2226

Sometimes we can use technology to go forward like with solar - sometimes we have to go back in order to achieve progress (quit smoking, reduce meat and milk).

Regards,

Hugo

markm wrote: Reciprocity? If we were practicing reciprocity with China in the first place, most imports from there would be banned already.

Hey, this isn't just theory. The bad press from the recent petfood and lead incidents was already generating some credible threats of reciprocity from the Chinese elites ("how dare you say bad things about our exports! Why we might just..."). At this point it is mostly empty talk, but wait until they have the means to make it credible and the tit-for-tat could get ugly in a trade war.

And if it got to the point where they felt like they were going to lose a comparable amount of revenue either way, they could just dump a few hundred billion trade-surplus bucks into the currency markets and really deflate the dollar.

anony-mouse, my point is that China has very severe import restrictions such as local-content requirements already. From what I hear from people that have been trying to sell to China, I doubt that they could ban many more imports from us without hindering the ability to import electronics and industrial machinery needed to keep their economy growing. If we were practicing reciprocity, Walmart would have few Chinese goods to sell...


re: pigovian import duty

I think it would be one more excuse for protectionists. Protectionists in the US would claim higher levels are needed to properly price the CO2 emissions by the manufacturers of goods we import. Meanwhile exporting countries facing barriers might put in place their own, finding some other justification.

Also it could be applied against us if our CO2 limits aren't as low as some other countries.


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