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I wouldn't do that if I were you

10 Sep 2007 09:12 am

Jonathan Chait has apparently gotten the notion somewhere that Martin Feldstein is about half a step above George Gilder and Jude Wanniski in intellectual heft:

I see that, in their efforts to show that Republican budget policy is actually driven by sensible people rather than raving loons, conservatives are now citing the work of Martin Feldstein (see here and here.)

I will concede that Feldstein is more credible than, say, George Gilder or Jude Wanniski. That, however, is not saying much.

I've only been a journalist for a few years. But I've developed a small list of phrases that should never come out of one's mouth:

"Peter Singer--what a 'tard!"

"I just don't think Stephen Hawking is all that bright"

"Well, fine, Crick and Watson may be smarter than your average creationist, but not much."

Since I mostly write about economics, that means I mostly try to avoid saying, or implying, that highly respected economists are not very good at their job1. Even when you think their research is mistaken, you want to tread carefully with the accusations of stupidity or bad faith. Especially when that economist is a holder of the John Bates Clark medal, which is harder to get than the Nobel Prize in economics. Extra especially when he is a chaired professor at Harvard, and the head of the National Bureau of Economic research. For one thing, when you do write things like that, anyone who knows anything about the subject is not reading it and thinking, "that McArdle chick sure must be smart, if she knows more about trade theory than Paul Krugman!"

Moreover, you run the risk of having to prove that you are smarter than said professor, when trust me, you aren't. There is no way an argument between you and Martin Feldstein, or any other economist of his stature, about their subject is going to end except with you backing away slowly, eyes fixed on your shoes, mumbling "I'm sorry, I just didn't quite understand . . . I'm sorry, yes, listen, I really ought to go . . . I think I left something on the stove . . . no, no more equations, PLEASE MAKE IT STOP!"

And of course, sometimes my old employer notices what you've said, and then things like this tend to happen:


JONATHAN CHAIT apparently is unimpressed by citations to the work of personages such as Martin Feldstein, the president of the prestigious National Bureau of Economic Research and the George F. Baker Professor of Economics at Harvard University. Indeed, Mr Chait has a knack for drawing the bounds of intellectual respectability so tightly around himself that by late afternoon even his shadow falls outside the charmed circle. Even so, one must admit that Mr Feldstein's Clark medal and his endorsement by the New York Times for the job of Chairman of the Federal Reserve does leave one with a residue of suspicion. The Bank of Sweden has not bestowed upon him its coveted prize—though it's true he has been mentioned, specifically for his work on the theory of taxation. So let's not be too hasty to take him seriously. 

Because Mr Chait is a self-avowed empiricist, perhaps he will favour this new NBER paper (free version here) by Christina and David Romer of the Univesity of California, Berkeley (despite somewhat embarrassing credentials, even slightly more lackluster than Mr Feldstein's). It is a dazzling empirical investigation of the effects of tax cuts and increases on economic output in the United States since the end of the second World War—one that significantly improves on the methodology of earlier attempts to estimate the effects of tax changes. They find that

tax increases appear to have a very large, sustained, and highly significant negative impact on output. Since most of our exogenous tax changes are in fact reductions, the more intuitive way to express this result is that tax cuts have very large and persistent positive output effects.

The economists Romer looked at every tax change legislated at the national level since WWII. Impressively, they scoured "presidential speeches, executive-branch documents, and Congressional reports ... to identify the size, timing, and principal motivation for all major postwar tax policy actions." They then categorized each tax change based on whether or not it was intended as a forward-looking correction to the direction of the economy (they call these "endogenous" changes), or intended for other reasons, such as to reduce an inherited deficit or to boost long-run growth (the "exogenous" changes.) This allows them to tease out the output effects of tax cuts and tax increases set in place for different reasons.

Those interested in raising taxes, but unwilling to take seriously Martin Feldstein's estimate of the deadweight loss of tax increases, will need to grapple with Mr and Ms Romers' new findings. For example:

Our baseline specification suggests that an exogenous tax increase of one percent of GDP lowers real GDP by roughly three percent.

This is bad news for those with aspirations to higher levels of tax-financed spending. However, they find that not all tax hikes hurt the same. Tax increases specifically intended to offset budget deficits largely avoid the negative effects of other kinds of increases, in part by improving the climate of investor confidence.

The deadweight loss of taxation is still a matter of hot debate, and other economists would push forward other numbers. But Mr Chait's recent writings seem to imply that he hasn't really understood the terms of the debate, or learned how to separate the cranks from the titans, which may be why his article lumps all of their claims together. Unfortunately, I haven't a copy of the book, so I can't tell if it's any better than the article in The New Republic.

"It's true because Martin Feldstein said it" is a stupid argument--but no stupider than "Tax cuts are bad because Art Laffer likes them".

1 But what about Paul Krugman, I hear you cry. I don't care for Paul Krugman the columnist, which is a job I know something about. You won't see me airily dismissing his work on trade, however, nor other respected economists whose work I disagree with, like Card and Krueger.

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Comments (139)

This is precisely what I mean when I say that, however intelligent you are, you make many intellectually frivolous arguments. Appeals to credentials are fallacious. However well credentialed these people are, that does not ipso facto make them correct and Chait incorrect. There are plenty of people who sit in endowed chairs at major universities, have won multiple prizes, and are universally respected who are still wrong on the merits on certain issues.

Also, on the "they're smarter than Chait" issue-- you've made no argument at all. Once again, you've simply assumed that your perspective is so blindingly obvious that it can't be disputed. But it can. Simply because something seems obvious to you does not make it correct. I mean, taking it as a layman, who doesn't know Feldstein at all-- why should I accept that contention that he's smarter than Jon Chait? You haven't provided any evidence to that point at all. And really, why is this debate about who's smarter, exactly? You've slid from an argument about credentialism into an argument about intelligence without, I think, a logically meaningful reason to do so.

Finally, the quote you posted is mostly an appeal to a research paper, which can be evaluated on empirical and analytic grounds on its own. Perhaps that paper will refute Chait on this individual issue. That remains to be seen. But you seem to be under the misapprehension that your quote somehow really "socks it" to Chait, that it leaves him looking foolish. It doesn't, at all. And even if the paper in question does count against him, his views on one subject can't answer the question, raised by you, about Chait's general intelligence.

Finally, I don't think people are impressed by The Economist as much as you are. You seem to think people are going to say "Eek! The Economist is coming after Chait! It's over for him!" Again, that's an appeal to authority that doesn't really move me.

Freddie, Chait is claiming that Martin Feldstein is an intellectual lightweight or a crank. This is simply a ludicrous claim. He may be wrong, he may be biased, but he is highly respected economist whose views need to be rebutted, not dismissed with references to Jude Wanniski and George Gilder.

Freddie, Chait is claiming that Martin Feldstein is an intellectual lightweight or a crank. This is simply a ludicrous claim.

If so, then I spoke too soon. My apologies, sorry to be hasty.

Megan,

Can you point us toward something you've written (or something you've read that you find useful) disagreeing with Card and Krueger? (I assume you're referring to their work on the minimum wage.)

That's a cute rhetorical trick Chait pulls there -- make the mildest concession you can, then repeat what a mild concession it is to imply that no greater concession can be made. Let me try it,

I will concede that the Boston Red Sox are a better baseball team than the Kansas City Royals, but that's not saying much.

I will concede that Peyton Manning, at this point in his career, is a better quarterback than Joey Harrington, but that's not saying much.

I will concede that George W. Bush is not as good a wartime president as Abraham Lincoln, but that's not saying much.

I will concede Nome is usually colder than Phoenix, but that's not saying much.

Hey, this is fun!

But let me point out-- saying that Chait is wrong to question the intellectual bona fides of Feldstein is a far different thing from saying that Chait is not intellectually in the class of the people he criticizes. You can arrive at the position "Chait is not intellectually in the class of Feldstein", while at the same time rejecting Megan's justifications for that claim, "Feldstein is better credentialed than Chait, and anyway it is obvious that Chait is not in the same league as Feldstein, and he would embarrass himself in an argument with Feldstein."

I'm beginning to like Freddie.

The Romer and Romer paper is a good find. In a long paper there is plenty to pick out. So the interest of Keynesian cherry-picking, note their finding that the bulk of the effect on GDP is coming from the demand side and not the supply side i.e. slow adjustment to the equilibrium level of output rather than changes in the equilibrium. Coupled with their famous findings on the monetary policy side, the tools of policymakers look quite traditional in their framework. They work because nominal prices are inflexible, not because there are huge labor supply responses to tax changes.

Is it okay to call O'Hanlon and Pollack an intellectual lightweight or a crank? What about Charles Krauthammer? George Will? Little Tommy Friedman?

I'm familiar with the work of Martin Feldstein and Jon Chait, and I am very, very comfortable saying that Jon Chait is not in Martin Feldstein's intellectual class. That's no insult, mind you; neither am I.

You're entitled to dismiss someone as a crank, or strongly imply same, if the odds are that in an argument with the crank, a panel of impartial observers would vote you the winner. There is absolutely no question in my mind that Jon Chait would get knocked out in the first round if he tried an intellectual throwdown with Martin Feldstein on the subject of taxes. Hence, Chait is not entitled to suggest that he's not really credible.

Again, that doesn't make him right; just serious.

Which is more fallacious, Megan: an appeal to authority, or disagreeing with someone who has authority?

I have no idea what the merits of Chait's or Feldstein's body of work are, but it's not clear that you do either, because you didn't bother to mention them. It's simply self-evident that Feldstein is a Very Serious Person. The rest of us are required to take him seriously no matter what we think of him.

Chait is entitled to suggest Feldstein isn't credible if that's what he believes, just as you are entitled to suggest otherwise. But if you're going to argue with him, it might be a good idea to argue with him.

Marty Feldstein is an extremely smart guy. Also, if you ever need someone to steal a truckload of shit, he's your guy.

Megan,

You are correct that it was wrong of Chait to suggest that Feldstein is an intellectual lighweight. But that is completely independent of whether Chait is smarter than Feldstein or not and so appears as a gratuitous snide against Chait on your part.

If somebody smarter than Feldstein were to suggest that Feldstein was a lightweight he would be equally wrong. Chait's intelligence (or anyone else's) is irrelevant to the question of assessing Feldstein's capabilities.

I agree with Meg that Jonathan was wrong to single out Fieldstein as unimpressive. But it was also wrong for Meg to single out Feldstein's findings when they contradict most of the impirical work in the field by a factor of 2. Less wrong, but also important in rebuttal, are the number of factors, as Yew-Kang Ng illustrates:

http://fol.math.sdu.edu.cn/tyx/content/content.php?id=97&tb=wlg

Megan,
You have to be careful though. Even intellectual giants can go off the rails. For example, William Maurice Ewing was very prominent American marine geographer in the 1930s, but he never accepted the theory of plate techtonics and continued to adhere to this idyosincratic views even when by the 1970s they were manifestly wrong.

Big intellectuals can become invested in Big ideas that they are reluctant to modify even with new facts on the ground. Perhaps Martin Feldstein has simply invested too much in a negative view of taxation and can not let it go, even in light of new reaserach.

No doubt Feldstein is a very smart guy, so why didn't the Reagan Administration take him seriously (as in, paraphrasing, "that's not my Economic Report of the President")?

And I am most definitely with whoever it was above who said that having The Economist come after you is hardly the last word or even a major hit. Their economics columnists aren't exactly Feldstein level either; I think the old James Fallows' article "The Colonial Cringe" from about 1992 established that fairly definitively.

And citing one (1!) journal article (actually, not even a journal article, but an NBER working paper) as definite refutation or proof of anything is bogus. Economics is a fairly imprecise discipline (I don't think that it is a science), lab studies are almost impossible so there are invariably a host of conflating and confounding factors, error terms generally remain large, and results almost always should be interpreted cautiously. Which I suspect is what the Romers did.

So piss on Chait as much as you want (it really was pretty obnoxious being snide about Feldstein that way, George Gilder is the author of "Naked Nomads: Unmarried Men in America" for pity's sake) but for the pisser to be The Economist is rather rich.

There is absolutely no question in my mind that Jon Chait would get knocked out in the first round if he tried an intellectual throwdown with Martin Feldstein on the subject of taxes.

Okay. Here's the thing. You may have very good reason to believe that this is the case. Unfortunately, we don't have access to the information that leads you to believe this. And as much as you may be correct, and you may have good reason for believing that you are correct (and I hate to sound like a broken record here), we (your readers) have no reason to believe that what you are saying is true beyond your assertion that it's the case. I don't mean to suggest that you are always obligated to demonstrate sound logical basis for your claims. In this instance, though, I think it really behooves you to demonstrate evidence beyond your own assertion. And surely you understand that the fact that you really think something isn't really a compelling reason for anyone else to think that way.

Hence, Chait is not entitled to suggest that he's not really credible.

Also, even if the previous is correct, I don't believe that this logically follows. You don't have to be on the intellectual level of someone to assert that they are not intellectually credible. I think you're assuming Chait's point to amount to, "I am more intellectually credible than Feldstein, so I have the ability to denounce Feldstein's credibility." But I don't think that's necessarily the idea. I think the idea is simply "I don't find Feldstein to be intellectually credible," which I suggest can be asserted regardless of the relative credibility of the person making the claim. (Got all that?)

Also, what Gabriel said.

In this one, I've got Freddie and I can't see it going past the third round.

Any takers?

Chait's wrong to imply that Feldstein is only "slightly more credible" than "raving loons." He's obviously a highly respected professional in his field. His arguments deserve a serious rebuttal, not a casual dismissal.

That said, winning a prestigious award does not automatically entail that the honoree will not subsequently grow intellectually lazy and become something of a crank who clings to his cherished pet theories long after everyone else has abandoned them.

Not all tax cuts are equal. Feldstein won the Clark Medal in 1977, during an era when much of the Western world was laboring under a higher tax burden than it is currently. It could be credibly argued then that high taxes contributed to a shortage of investment capital. I don't think it could be seriously argued that the same conditions apply today. Expecting that a tax cut or a tax hike in 2007 would have effects that can be predicted by using a simple historical model from the 1960s through the 1980s, without considering the relationship to the money supply... this is straying perilously close to crank territory, even when the argument comes from a respected elder.

Romer and Romer don't actually do this. They concede that "controlling for all other non-policy factors that affect revenues and that could directly affect output is essentially impossible..." and then attempt to categorize their data based on the legislative intent of the tax code changes. Which is fine as far as it goes, and I'm not qualified to judge the quality of their model. But what they aren't taking into account is that since 1980 or so, the actual legislative intent of every tax cut has been "helping us beat the Democrats." It's become less of a principled economic strategy and more of a political cudgel.

I don't see any of these economists seriously addressing the possibility that tax cuts, regardless of whether they are countercyclical, provide diminishing returns as an economic stimulus. At some point, one would think that additional monies to be invested unwisely in overpriced condos or converted into consumer debt at 29%APR, in the absence of rising wages, will not continue to stimulate the economy. It will simply rack up unproductive debt and necessitate a larger tax hike in the future.

Which is more fallacious, Megan: an appeal to authority, or disagreeing with someone who has authority?-Mike M.

Noone is arguing "Fedlstein says it so it must be right." Not Meagan, nor anyone else. What I believe Megan is arguing is something like: "Martin Feldstein is a very serious and respected economist, so when he has an opinion about an economic question backed by research, it would be foolish to dismiss that opinion without careful consideration." It's hard to believe a sensible person could deny this.

Also, I think it's worth noting that, far from being a rabid supply-sider, Martin Feldstein angered the supply-siders in the Reagan administration by pushing for a tax increase to reduce the deficit (which I believe Gene was alluding to above). That's because he's a mainstream economist and, like other mainstream economists, he worries about the effect of large deficits on real interest rates.

Well, Freddie, you don't really have to ask me. You can look at the positions he holds, and the awards he's received which indicate that his fellow economists also find him pretty impressive. I don't even know what you're suggesting when you say "point to a body of work". Do you want a list of his publications? There's one available on his website, I'm sure. What would that tell you?

You don't have to rely on my assessment, of course; you'll have to decide whether I'm credible or not. But other than pointing out that this guy's fellow economists have repeatedly annointed him as one of their best guys, I can't "prove" that he's intellectually credible to you--what sort of proof would you accept?

Gabriel, my point is that perhaps a genius could dismiss Martin Feldstein as a quasi-crank, but Jon Chait is not that genius. Think of it in another field. Chait took on Martin Feldstein, not by disagreeing with him, but by implying that he is not worth rebutting. If a physicist said that about, I don't know, Freeman Dyson . . . well, then he'd better be so damn smart that it's obvious he is entitled to think of a rebuttal to Dyson as a trivially boring excercise. Otherwise, the suspicion is that you are a) arrogant and b) too stupid to rebut Freeman Dyson. If a journalist said the same thing, physicists would laugh their ass off, because the heavy odds are that the journalist didn't understand all but the broadest outlines of the work, much less formulate a reasoned rebuttal to it.

Chait is entitled to engage with Martin Feldstein's work, and explain why he thinks it is incorrect. He is not entitled to sneeringly imply that Martin Feldstein is a charlatan, and thereby duck the responsibility of engaging with his critiques--any more than I am entitled to imply that Paul Krugman is an intellectual half-step above Robert Kuttner.

In Chait's case, I don't know what his degree was in, but given his profession, the odds are that he doesn't have the statistical and econometric tools to even have an opinion on Martin Feldstein's work--other than the one that I hold, which is that, wisdom of crowds being what it is, it's likely that the value is closer to the median estimate than to Feldstein's.

At some point, you have to accept things like this on authority. I can't become enough of an expert in enough fields to assess the quality of the research; I have to take the word of experts. That's why I accept the consensus of climatologists that the earth's atmosphere is warming, and the consensus of economists that Martin Feldstein is an extremely smart man whose work should be taken seriously.

Megan is trained in economics at the University of Chicago; she's familiar with the literature and thus with whats agreed upon and whats in dispute (presumably including the merits of republican budget policy); and she knows something about the standing of the principal economists making arguments on that topic. Her warrant for saying what she did is simply that of an economics insider who can make competent judgments about work in that field--which I presume Chait cannot similarly do. And its a perfectly good warrant.

She's credible because of her record posting and writing on economics on this blog and elsewhere. It seems to me that either you see this or you don't...

I don't think there is anything snide or insulting about suggesting that Chait isn't on Feldstein's intellectual level. Megan freely admits that she isn't there either. Chait hasn't spent a lifetime studying taxation unlike Feldstein and it is pretty bold to casually dismiss the views of someone with his pedigree.

Additionally, commenters repeatedly and conveniently forget that Megan isn't arguing that Feldstein is correct about the effects of lowering taxes, she is just arguing that not all tax cut proponents are complete hacks or totally nuts. The reaction to Megan's claim about people's beliefs about cutting taxes seem similar to reactions to claims about global warming or some other hot button issue. I'm imagine that Megan believes that global warming exists and is a serious concern, but I'm also pretty sure that she believes that some respected individuals sincerely and credibly believe that its dangers are overstated.

Megan,

I agree with what you say. Feldstein has certainly earned the right to be taken seriously on issues of taxation and economics. That, of course, doesn't mean he is always right (and I realize that is not what you are claiming).

But I don't think the intelligence of Chait is the issue and I think that bringing it up obscures your core point. I don't think any genius can, or should be allowed to, dismiss Feldstein as a crank.

If Feldstein is wrong, then we should debate that on the merits (your point) since he has earned that right given his record (your point) but we can ignore the intelligence or lack thereof of anyone who thinks or implies that Feldstein is a crank (my point). That's all.

Andrew Golis describing this week's Book Club at TPM Cafe:


In the Book Club, we've assembled a pretty incredible group of folks to debate Jon Chait new book The Big Con: The True Story of How Washington Got Hoodwinked and Hijacked by Crackpot Economics. Joining Chait will be Paul Krugman of Princeton and the NYTs, Stephen Moore of the WSJ and formerly of the Club for Growth, Ezra Klein of the American Prospect, Will Wilkinson of the Cato Institute, and Megan McArdle and Ross Douthat both of the Atlantic Monthly. It's a brilliant and intellectually diverse group from which we expect some entertaining fireworks.


Megan McArdle writes this morning:


Unfortunately, I haven't a copy of the book, so I can't tell if it's any better than the article in The New Republic.

She continues "I don't care for Paul Krugman the columnist, which is a job I know something about." Presumably she knows enough about punditry to be paid to discuss a book she doesn't yet have a copy of.

Did anyone link through? In Chait's quote, the words "not saying much" are a link to one of his own columns.

Chait mocks Feldstein for two bad revenue predicitions in 1993 and 2001. If you follow the trail, what Chait is doing is implying that Feldstein's poor predictive powers mean you can discount his analytical powers.

Chait is generous enough to assign Feldstein an excuse, but only to fire another shot:

"Feldstein's defenders would claim he just got unlucky twice in a row: Clinton's tax hike happened to precede a huge boom, and Bush's tax cut happened to coincide with a major slowdown. But revenue grew under Clinton and shrank under Bush, far more than could be accounted for by growth alone."

But here's the kicker. Chait wrote his attack on Feldstein in 2004. In 2007, he still links to it. But wait, tax revenue rose significantly in 2005 -- much more than in 2004. Jon, what have you done for us recently?

Freddie, you've really talked yourself into a frenzy here - and you've still missed the point.

Chait's original point was that Republicans are only listening to a handful of wingnut economists (or not even economists) to get their economic advice. To prove the point, Chait needs to show that all the economists to whom Republicans are listening are wingnuts. They are clearly listening to Feldstein, and so Chait must then defend his position by showing that Feldstein is indeed a crank.

The problem is that he didn't attempt to show that. He essentially tried to prove that Feldstein was a crank by simply saying "he's a crank". Megan's point seems to be that, perhaps if Chait had been talking about someone with no authority on tax policy, simply pointing out that he's a crank is probably good enough because their lack of authority makes the point self-evident. But Feldstein - as with most published academics - is above being presumed a crank. If he's crank, demonstrate it with references to his now-discredited papers. If not STHU.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, Feldstein egregiously blew his analysis of Clinton's tax hikes and Bush's tax cuts.

It's possible to be wildly wrong twice and not be a dumbo, but the twice-wrong-headed-on-a-global-scale schmuck shouldn't be deferred to, though. Particularly when he keeps singing the same song.

Freddie, I think you owe everyone an explanation of why you are too lazy to go to the public library or subscribe to one of the various on-line services for academic publications and read Feldstein's most recent 100 publications. (Unless you have at least a master's degree in economics, you won't understand many of them.) Then read Chait's most recent 100 publications. (That will go a lot quicker.) Then you will see that when it comes to economics, Feldstein has vastly superior knowledge to Chait. Why is Megan supposed to do this job for you?

Alternatively, you could simply look at their professional positions (Harvard professor versus newspaper columnist) and make a guess as to which is likely to be more knowledgeable, which is what most people would do.

Well, Freddie, you don't really have to ask me. You can look at the positions he holds, and the awards he's received which indicate that his fellow economists also find him pretty impressive. I don't even know what you're suggesting when you say "point to a body of work". Do you want a list of his publications? There's one available on his website, I'm sure. What would that tell you?

That you were too busy to look it up?

Teh list of publications.

It's not about you, Meg. We have 1860s issues of the Atlantic that are, you know, crying bitter tears with this not-look-it-up, 'Hi! I'm me!" ethos.

There don't seem to be too many people here defending Chait, which is good, because Chait is very foolish to call Feldstein "crazy" and dismiss him as a crank. But many still seem to think that Feldstein is in a tiny minority in thinking that the incentive effects of taxation can be significant--that only a small coterie of right-wing economists agrees with him. But that isn't so.

The center of the economics profession has moved significantly in Feldstein's direction over the last three decades. In the following quote from The Commanding Heights, Democrat (and esteemed economist) Larry Summers explains just how much economic thought has changed:

"Things have happened to change people's thinking in recent years... they have seen how badly the public sector can mess things up. With competition things seem to go better. innovation happens... markets are able to do things that people used to think required government coordiantion...There is now skepticism about the view that you have to have the public sector to get things done... A gradual refinement in economics has led to an upward revision in elasticities, in how systems respond. There is a greater response to tax rates than people used to think." (italics mine)

Extra especially when he is a chaired professor at Harvard...

What's next, assertions that Marty Peretz is an international relations genius?

It's not clear to me why appealing to credentials is fallacious. If two people are arguing about physics and one of them teaches physics at a prestigious university and has won all sorts of physics awards, and the other is just some guy, I'm probably going to side with the credentialed guy. It's not a conclusive argument, of course, but it can be pretty compelling.

An earlier commenter had suggested that Feldstein may have credentials, but he could be so ideologically committed to his thesis of lower taxes that he isn't credible. Couldn't the same point be made about Chait? Chait is suggesting that all Republican economic advisers are bonkers and so he has to characterize anyone associated with Republicans as nuts or else his theory is no longer valid.

Now that Sadly, No has given us a list of Feldstein's publications, I presume Freddie is off reading them to confirm for himself whether the guy knows anything about economics.

Marty Feldstein is an extremely smart guy. Also, if you ever need someone to steal a truckload of shit, he's your guy.

Kieran,
You are confusing Marty Feldstein with Martin L. Weitzman. It is the latter who stole manure from a farm.

Unbelievable.

If your real complaint is that economics discussions are not being left to the economists, then say that (I think that's your real objection to Chait). Don't get all huffy about who the heck this Chait character thinks he is to opine about that which he is not qualified. EVERYONE does that.

Anyway, who the heck is Jonathan Chait, really? Never mind Feldstein, who I never heard of before this; why get all worked up over what some pundit says on a blog? Unless you enjoy that sort of thing...

Chait's original point was that Republicans are only listening to a handful of wingnut economists (or not even economists) to get their economic advice. To prove the point, Chait needs to show that all the economists to whom Republicans are listening are wingnuts.

Actually, I think proving that most or all wingnuts are citing the same economists would suffice to prove the wingnuttery of said economists. Otherwise, why would all the wingnuts cite them?

Whose ox and all that ...

Swap economists w/ climate scientists. ("Listen to the vvvvolves. Children of the de naaaaahhht.")

Always, the important thing is the science and how well the science matches reality. Feldstein has had two very public, very broadscale failures in applying his economics.

Megan McArdle and Blackadder have both introduced physicists to justify their arguments as if physics and economics are somehow comparable.

Physics is a hard quantitative science with a thin veneer of religion. Economics is a soft qualitative religion with a thin veneer of science.

Freddie, you've really talked yourself into a frenzy here - and you've still missed the point.

I really have a hard time seeing anything I've written here as "a frenzy". If someone could show me a quote of what I've written and demonstrated

Look, Megan et al.-- I am sorry that it bothers you, but it is simply an established fact of logical discourse that appeals to authority (or credentials) and argument by assertion are fallacious. As I have been careful in saying, the fact that Megan has committed these fallacies doesn't make Chait right and Feldstein wrong. But the fact is that what we are left with for evidence to support the claim that Feldstein is a superior intellect to Jon Chait is

A) Martin Feldstein is a impeccably credentialed, respected economist who works for Harvard, so he must be smarter/more credible/more correct than Jon Chait; and

B) it is simply obvious that Martin Feldstein is smarter/more credible/more correct than Jon Chait.

Neither of these is what I would call a serious argument. Sorry. I don't know many who would. And as it is Megan who is making the claim that Chait is not in Feldstein's league (and, indeed, that Chait would be utterly embarrassed by Feldstein in an argument) it is Megan who carries the burden of proof.

I find this important, by the way, because Megan makes arguments like B) above all the time, and I think it hurts her credibility.

"In Chait's case, I don't know what his degree was in, but given his profession, the odds are that he doesn't have the statistical and econometric tools to even have an opinion on Martin Feldstein's work--other than the one that I hold"
--Megan

Dude. Awesome.

Tell me, what am I allowed to have an opinion on? Where is it okay to only have your opinion?

Now that Sadly, No has given us a list of Feldstein's publications, I presume Freddie is off reading them to confirm for himself whether the guy knows anything about economics.

If you would bother to read what I've actually said (and read it carefully), I think you'll find that I've never made a claim either way about Feldstein's quality as an economist-- good, bad, or indifferent. Megan has said that not only is Chait incorrect, he should be disqualified from the discourse ("he is not entitled...") because he does not have the necessary economics bona fides to challenge Feldstein. This is a deeply undemocratic claim. If only those acknowledged as experts are allowed to weigh in on policy, then we might as well anoint philosopher kinds now.

What's more, as I have said repeatedly, Megan hasn't even really passed her own test, because she's failed to provide evidence for why Feldstein is worthy of being taken seriously, and Chait is not, beyond repeated arguments through assertion ("...it's ludicrous...").

The problem here is that both Chait and Megan are making the same bad move, making a genetic argument: these positions are wrong, because they come from a bad source-- in Megan's case, Chait, in Chait's case, Feldstein. A much better tactic would be to actually demonstrate how Feldstein's arguments are superior to Chait's. I think it's funny that Megan attempts to rebut Chait with another genetic argument.

Freddie,

It actually isn't "an established fact of logical discourse that appeals to authority (or credentials) and argument by assertion are fallacious." Some appeals to authority are no doubt fallacious. Others are not. What Megan said would seem to be a pretty obvious example of a non-fallacious appeal to authority.

I believe Megan's assertion was that Chait has not spent enough time studying economics to deem Feldstein a hack. Her claim isn't that Feldstein is correct, it is just that you can't dismiss a man who has spent his life studying taxation with a link to a several years old article that Chait wrote. Megan didn't say Chait was incapable of commenting in any way about economics or Feldstein, only that he can't simply categorize him as a hack with a single link. That criticism of Chait is neither undemocratic nor incorrect.

Megan didn't say Chait was incapable of commenting in any way about economics or Feldstein, only that he can't simply categorize him as a hack with a single link.

Would that it were so.

In Chait's case, I don't know what his degree was in, but given his profession, the odds are that he doesn't have the statistical and econometric tools to even have an opinion on Martin Feldstein's work--other than the one that I hold

liberalrob wonders who this Chait guy is. Well, he was a close pal of Stephen Glass, who was fired from the New Republic for fabricating stories. Chait said of Glass:

"The paradox is that people who didn't know him -- like my wife -- would say that they thought he was making things up. I would indignantly deny that that could be true," said Chait.

I don't mean to imply that Chait was in any way a part of Glass's fraud. But his failure to notice anything at all odd about Glass's sometimes wild stories does indicate that he's not the sharpest guy around.

I must admit, I've never seen such a thoroughly detailed example of the Argument From Authority fallacy in my life. It's actually quite impressive! Especially the followups in the thread where people assert that Jonathan Chait has less "intellectual heft" because he doesn't know as much about taxes as Martin Feldstein. Well, yes, but neither does Stephen Hawking.

And to respond to a point made upthread, I would quite happily call Charles Krauthammer an "intellectual lightweight". So would anybody that's actually managed to get through "the unipolar moment" without collapsing into tears of helpless laughter.

Her statement doesn't disagree with what I said. To not cherrypick:
"Chait is entitled to engage with Martin Feldstein's work, and explain why he thinks it is incorrect. He is not entitled to sneeringly imply that Martin Feldstein is a charlatan, and thereby duck the responsibility of engaging with his critiques--any more than I am entitled to imply that Paul Krugman is an intellectual half-step above Robert Kuttner.

In Chait's case, I don't know what his degree was in, but given his profession, the odds are that he doesn't have the statistical and econometric tools to even have an opinion on Martin Feldstein's work--other than the one that I hold, which is that, wisdom of crowds being what it is, it's likely that the value is closer to the median estimate than to Feldstein's.

At some point, you have to accept things like this on authority. I can't become enough of an expert in enough fields to assess the quality of the research; I have to take the word of experts. That's why I accept the consensus of climatologists that the earth's atmosphere is warming, and the consensus of economists that Martin Feldstein is an extremely smart man whose work should be taken seriously."

Today's condensed Megan:

At some point, you have to accept things like this on authority.

Is there any topic you actually know something about? Didn't you major in something? Besides the intricacies of networking those Ivy League connections, of course.

Uh, yes, they did. You said that she isn't questioning Chait's right to an opinion. ("Megan didn't say Chait was incapable of commenting in any way about economics or Feldstein"). She did, in fact, say so explicitly and expressly. ("he doesn't have the statistical and econometric tools to even have an opinion on Martin Feldstein's work--other than the one that I hold".) What am I missing? She says he doesn't have the tools to have an opinion.

And, by the way, an argument from authority is always fallacious, whether or not the authority in question is correct. If you make an argument of the sort "Person X is more credentialed/respected/educated than Person Y, therefore Person X's opinion is correct", that is always a fallacy, regardless of whether or not Person X is in fact correct.

It is truly breathtaking to see supposed libertarians argue that only experts have the ability to meaningfully comment on a political issue.

Various commenters have repeatedly brought up the "Argument From Authority fallacy" and used it to dismiss any statements about Feldstein's background. Didn't Chait essentially make an appeal to authority in dismissing Feldstein as a hack? He said Feldstein is a hack and here is proof, an article in TNR several years old article calling him a hack. There isn't a lifetime of scholarly articles that might contradict that.

And, by the way, an argument from authority is always fallacious, whether or not the authority in question is correct. If you make an argument of the sort "Person X is more credentialed/respected/educated than Person Y, therefore Person X's opinion is correct", that is always a fallacy, regardless of whether or not Person X is in fact correct.

Megan never said that Feldstein was correct. That is the gaping hole in your argument. You keep saying that Megan claimed Feldstein was correct. She just said that he wasn't a hack. You can't keep changing her argument. I haven't seem you present any evidence that supports Chait's assertion at any point. Getting budget projections wrong twice turns you into a hack? That's not a particularly forgiving standard.

"Uh, yes, they did. You said that she isn't questioning Chait's right to an opinion. ("Megan didn't say Chait was incapable of commenting in any way about economics or Feldstein"). She did, in fact, say so explicitly and expressly. ("he doesn't have the statistical and econometric tools to even have an opinion on Martin Feldstein's work--other than the one that I hold".) What am I missing? She says he doesn't have the tools to have an opinion."

I believe Megan's point is that everyone can claim to have any opinion about anything. However, if you have no background in economics and you are caling one of its foremost practitioners a hack, you better have better evidence than a couple thousand word article.

Some appeals to authority are no doubt fallacious. Others are not.

No. An appeal to authority is a logical fallacy. Always. Relativity isn't right because Einstein proposed it.

He said Feldstein is a hack and here is proof, an article in TNR several years old article calling him a hack.

Maybe we saw different Chait articles. I saw one which pointed out a couple of wowzer Feldstein predictions that turned out badly for Our Seer of Seers. And the political pressures which Feldstein bowed to produce those.

It is truly breathtaking to see supposed libertarians argue that only experts have the ability to meaningfully comment on a political issue.

I don't know that it's so much libertarian as Randian. I think this was Megan's "Jane Galt" aspect on display here.

If Chait had come out with a post extolling how "serious" and authoritative Feldstein was, would Megan have been similarly dismissive of Chait's ability to render an opinion?

it is simply an established fact of logical discourse that appeals to authority (or credentials) and argument by assertion are fallacious

Ah, self-refuting arguments...

Several commenters here (Freddie and Jeffrey Davis, to name two) seem to believe that appeals to authority are always fallacious. If they stopped and thought about this for a minute, they'd see that this can't be right. Most of our knowledge comes by way of authority, and if all appeals to authority were fallacious, we would be hard pressed to know even basic facts about history, science, geography, etc. Any competent account of the argument from authority will take account of this fact, and will thus be qualified in some way to avoid falling into absurdity.

You are confusing Marty Feldstein with Martin L. Weitzman.

Whoops, you're right. My mistake.

To take Jeffrey Davis' example, relativity isn't true because Einstein says it's true, but the fact that Einstein says it's true is a pretty good reason for thinking that it is true, at least if you're a layman. Similarly, if I see you on videotape robbing a 7-11, that's a pretty good reason to think that you robbed the 7-11, even though you didn't rob the 7-11 *because* you were videotaped doing so.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, Feldstein egregiously blew his analysis of Clinton's tax hikes and Bush's tax cuts.

As I pointed out on one of the other threads on this, Chait was wrong. 1993 brought in only 17.5% of GDP in tax revenue, even though it was the third year of an economic expansion.

Similarly, 2001 was a recession year so tax revenue would be expected to decline.

To take Blackadder's argument a step further, if I were to assert that some branch of science based on evolution was based on junk science, and someone else were to point out that it is based on Einstein's evolution, and I responded by disimissing Einstein as a hack, well, I'd be making a fool of myself.

That's what Ms. McArdle is saying about Chait -- not that he "doesn't have the right" to opine about economics, but when he does things like dismiss respected academics like Feldstein as little better than hacks, he makes a fool of himself and hurts his credibility.

Nobody here is mounting a serious logical argument. We don't reinvent the wheel in every public debate, and use the opinions of experts as shortcuts. That is not a logical proof, but it does save us some time to focus on matter that are controversial.

Blackadder is right about the "argument from authority" point. To put it in Bayesian terms, the probability that X is true, given that Y says it and Y is an expert is greater than the probability that X is true, given that Y says it isn't and Y is an expert. That's what being an expert means.

The fallacy would only be if you said the probability that X is true, given that Y says it and Y is an expert = 1. But then there are very few empirical propositions in this world whose probability is really 1.

I see I cross-posted with JohnMCG.

As he points out, you could try denying that there is such a thing as expertise in economics or that Feldstein possess it if it exists. But then you'd be wrong.

Megan,

There is another, maybe deeper issue at play here. You say that:

"There is no way an argument between you and Martin Feldstein, or any other economist of his stature, about their subject is going to end except with you backing away slowly, eyes fixed on your shoes, mumbling "I'm sorry, I just didn't quite understand . . . I'm sorry, yes, listen, I really ought to go . . . I think I left something on the stove . . . no, no more equations, PLEASE MAKE IT STOP!"

Really? Is that true?

Yes, if Chait or most any other non-academic economist were to debate Feldstein on the intricacies of one of his papers then I think you would be right. But that's probably not something Chait has any interest in debating.

If, on the other hand, Chait and Feldstein had been debating the impact of tax policy in 1993 and 2001 it would probably be Feldstein who would be asking for it to stop.

The problem is not Feldstein but the very real limits of economics as a discipline in helping us understand and predict the real world economy, specially at the macro level. Feldstein's equations turned out to be pretty useless to help him predict what would happen to taxes. It's not clear that his intelligence or academic achievements give him too much of an advantage in debating real world tax problems.

Given that Chait's trenchant analysis of Feldstein's forecasting errors makes basic tyro errors--failing to control for the business cycle, and comparing two periods of unequal length--then yes, I think that if Chait advanced upon Feldstein with this level of economic analysis, Mr Chait would quickly find himself humiliated and dismissed. I mean, maybe he's capable of better, but he chose what to link to, not me.

The business cycle in one case consisted of two presidential terms of office. Odd how that worked.

8 years without a "Sorry. My bad."

Trenchant is as trenchant does and twice on Sunday for tyros.

I don't think Chait is making any error here. After all it was Feldstein who predicted X and not Chait. All Chait is saying is that Feldstein doesn't have a very good record and that's true.

Whether there are attenuating circumstances (business cycle) is not the point. If Feldstein's greater economic knowledge had led him to predict what he did but only if the business cycle had been different than he should have said so. he didn't. Nobody forced Feldstein to make the predictions he did. He did and was proven wrong. If Chait and Feldstein had had a debate in 1993 and Chait had said "let's talk in a few years and see who is right" it would be Feldstein who would be asking to stop.

I am quite aware of Feldstein's academic credentials. But they don't seem to be of much help when debating a real world tax issue like this one.

Feldstein's defenders would claim he just got unlucky twice in a row: Clinton's tax hike happened to precede a huge boom, and Bush's tax cut happened to coincide with a major slowdown. But revenue grew under Clinton and shrank under Bush, far more than could be accounted for by growth alone.

And, anyway, even if that excuse were right, it undermines Feldstein's point. Feldstein and his conservative allies argue that upper-bracket tax-rate levels are crucial to economic health. But history shows that, at the very least, many other factors have a greater effect on economic growth. So accepting large deficits for the sake of tax cuts makes no sense. This history also suggests that it's Feldstein who has a "fundamentally incorrect view of how taxes affect individual behavior."

This is "failing to control for the business cycle"? Even if the business cycle were a totally uncontroversial and immutable influence--a position that Keynes wiped clean off the map a near-century ago--this certainly seems to at least acknowledge the business cycle as a possible factor, while at the same time dismissing it.

Chait's point isn't really that difficult or controversial: that despite the ravings of Feldstein et al, raising taxes didn't have anything remotely like serious negative consequences on the Clinton economy. Unless you're willing to adopt the (truly precious) conceit that economic growth under Clinton was due to Bush and/or Reagan, Feldstein's position on taxes seems well and truly discredited.

Oh, and yes, appeals to authority are always fallacious, because they mistake the argument for its author.

(Megan was a lit major, wasn't she? Surely she should be able to expound upon "the death of the author" at length.)

Past reputation is a nice little heuristic for how you should approach an argument, but it isn't one in-and-of itself, especially if the position is as deeply questionable as Feldstein's is. Someone with no education can make a brilliant point, whereas a Professor with a well-documented history can make a boneheaded one.

Proof of both is left as a (really, really easy) exercise for the reader.

Demosthenes, you and Chait are making the same logical fallacy -- "Misleading Vividness is a fallacy in which a very small number of particularly dramatic events are taken to outweigh a significant amount of statistical evidence." (Dr. Michael C. Labossiere).

It doesn't help that Chait manipulates the data (two different time frames) to create the "vividness."

Obviously, in my post I meant "relativity," rather than evolution, but it does raise a point.

Why is Ms. McArdle so bad for calling out Chait, but it's OK for everyone else to ridicule Brownback, Huckabee, et al for dissenting on evolution.

Note -- Those candidates didn't imply that Darwin was little more than a hack; they just said they don't beleive in him.

If an Administration official had similarly dismissed a scientific expert, I am quite sure it would be cited as a another example of the Administration's "contempt for science and facts."

I'm not here to defend the Brownback/Huckabee decision. Just to point out that we have little trouble recognizing when someone is making a fool out of himself by challenging the giants of a field without having done his homework when that person is our political opponenet.

Henry,

That's the problem here. There is no "significant amount of statistical evidence". At all. Different studies have come up with different numbers.

When Feldstein predicted what he did it was not based on widespread scientific consensus. It was his opinion, one many other economists disagreed with, and he turned out to be wrong.

Gabriel, did you read the linked piece? Feldstein didn't make a forecast. In 2001, he said

"the true cost of reducing the tax rates is likely to be substantially smaller than the costs projected in the official estimates"

Which Chait "refutes" by saying that income tax revenues fell; but since the economy went into recession, revenues would have fallen no matter what Bush had done. Similarly, in 1993, Feldstein says

"there is no possibility that the Clinton plan will produce the deficit reduction that it projects."

To which Chait rejoinders:

No possibility! Well, in case anybody has forgotten, the deficit actually dropped far more than anybody projected. Income tax revenue shot up through the ceiling. It's as if there was an actual invisible hand guiding the economy, and it grabbed Feldstein by the collar and screamed, "You're utterly, completely wrong, you fool!"

. . . except that no one thinks that the huge upside surprise Chait writes about was the product of Clinton tax magic; rather, it was a product of stock options, and the strange way they're treated by the tax code (as income, rather than capital gains), along with an increase in inequality (which raises income tax revenue, because the income tax is highly progressive), general macroeconomic growth, the stock market bubble, and a bunch of other things Clinton had no control over. Had Feldstein made a projection about the size of the deficit, you're right, he'd be wrong (though I'd point out that I'm literally not aware of anyone who foresaw the strange changes in the behaviour of income tax revenue that we saw in the 1990s and 2000s), but he didn't. He didn't (at least in the quoted bits) say the deficit wouldn't close; only that the Clinton tax increases wouldn't close it. Which they didn't. Whether they hit their numbers at all is probably a matter of hot dispute, but here's a good paper on the topic from the Fed:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.clevelandfed.org%2Fresearch%2FCommentary%2F2000%2F0401.pdf&ei=qrPlRtSsCILQeZWx7ZEK&usg=AFQjCNE3ZzgUaUP87aGiAWKp5iYsTVNyxw&sig2=OXS6yXZKTFJA7xEctDITRw

It's almost as if an invisible hand had grabbed Jon Chait and made him write nonsense.

"Unless you're willing to adopt the (truly precious) conceit that economic growth under Clinton was due to Bush and/or Reagan, Feldstein's position on taxes seems well and truly discredited."-Demosthenes

Intersetingly, the original Demosthenes had a reputation as rabble-rouser who attacked great men with spurious charges and insults. But I'm sure that description wouldn't fit this Demosthenes...

Anyway, as nearly all economists would agree, the main factor in the 1990's boom was the technological innovation that allowed for such strong productivity growth. The seeds of this innovation were sown in previous decades and could not reasonably be attributed to President Clinton's policies. Many economists would point to the tax cuts and deregulation of the 1980's as a spur to innovation and a contributor to the boom.

That said, the free trade and fiscal prudence of the Clinton era probably did help to create favorable eonomic conditions. Whether due to the influence of advisers like Robert Rubin and Larry Summers or the pressure of Newt Gingrich, Clinton pursued policies that were fairly conservative and fairly successful. As he once observed, "We're Eisenhower Republicans here. We stand for low deficits, free trade, and the bond market."

Megan,

Hmm...this is what I get for getting sidetracked from my original point, that Chait's intelligence was irrelevant to whether Feldstein is an expert or not.

I though I read Feldstein making predictions somewhere but I am too lazy to check that now so I will take your word I was wrong. Sorry.

I still think my point (above) stands as does my second point, that being an academic expert is not that much help in many of these practical policy disputes.