Quote of the week

The year, maybe:

It's striking how quick people are to assume that their political opponents (and even their allies!) are just pretending to take morality seriously. There are some cynics out there, but they normally avoid moral argument, rather than engage in it insincerely.

If you think that no one could sincerely hold the moral views they claim to hold, you should try to convince someone to abandon their religion. After a few hours, you'll probably have every right to doubt their rationality. But if you think that "it's all an act," you're just being paranoid.

Comments

There are some cynics out there, but they normally avoid moral argument, rather than engage in it insincerely.

Please don't tell me, though, that you think the heads of the big, money-making evangalist outfits aren't perfectly aware that they are playing a hoax their sheep.

If you think that no one could sincerely hold the moral views they claim to hold, you should try to convince someone to abandon their religion.

I am going to have to assume that "holding" to moral values does not mean the same thing as practicing them.

After a few hours, you'll probably have every right to doubt their rationality. But if you think that "it's all an act," you're just being paranoid.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. It usually is an act they play for and to themselves first and foremost. It seems pretty clear that most people are not able to be honest with themselves about the important things. And so they do believe what they believe, but they do not at all understand it.

Good evening Megan.

Posted by mcnamarick | September 7, 2007 9:26 PM

mcnamarick,
What kind of nonsensical wordlplay is that?

It usually is an act they play for and to themselves first and foremost.It seems pretty clear that most people are not able to be honest with themselves about the important things.

It is completely irrelevant whether you think they are being honest to themselves (whatever that is supposed to mean), what matters is what they themselves believe, irrespective of how rational or irrational others consider their beliefs to be.

That's just the point Megan (well, actually Bryan Caplan) was trying to make and I believe you have done your part to prove her right.

This idiotic habit of always assuming someones explicit goals and convictions are only means to an end - a different end than the one they are purporting to pursue - is SO arrogant.

You are free to criticize any reactionary policy and any fundamentalist evangelical crackpot and I will probably go along with that but DO TAKE THEM SERIOUSLY, for god's sake!

These people don't pretend, they really believe what they are saying.

Posted by Marc | September 8, 2007 5:41 AM

Marc,

You wrote:

It is completely irrelevant whether you think they are being honest to themselves (whatever that is supposed to mean)

I agree that what I think about what others may or may not believe is irrelevant. And I also understand that you don't seem to be able to understand what it means that most people appear to be fooling themselves about the big questions like god and moral behavior.

It seems easy to see that the collective psyche of mankind has always been challenged, and that it is increasingly so today. The average person's oulook on god and religion is one thing. The outlooks of the leadership types is quite another. Many people believe the craziest things. But the original quote says

It's striking how quick people are to assume that their political opponents (and even their allies!) are just pretending to take morality seriously.

So that is what I thought was the point, not what the common person believes, but how the leaders believe and behave. Overwhelmingly they seem to behave hypocritically, and Bush and his apocolypse anticipating cronies are at the top of the list. The Prince of Peace could never have condoned killing at all, much less on this scale.

So, again, what people believe?... you and I can't really know what is in another person's heart of hearts. But we can see what they say and do. Most of the leaders I have heard and watched to not seem genuine at all. And even if any pastor, rabbi or imam really does believe all the supernatural literature they have read, and I'm sure many do, they ceratinly also notice how everybody gets on their knees and says and does what they are told. And I feel quite sure that that has much more to do with the leaders strength of faith than their personal moral convictions.

Cynical? I suppose. Arrogant? If you think so.

Posted by mcnamarick | September 8, 2007 8:48 AM

The difference between sincerity and authenticity has been explicated long ago.

http://www.amazon.com/Sincerity-Authenticity-Charles-Norton-Lectures/dp/0674808614/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-6590374-6065240?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189282620&sr=8-1

Posted by Jeffrey Davis | September 8, 2007 4:17 PM

mcnamarick,
maybe I was a littly too harsh in my first reply.

It seems, after reading your comment again, that we may not disagreee that much anyway. You are right, I was taking a more general approach and didn't specifically refer only to the leaders.

I completely agree when you say

It seems pretty clear that most people are not able to be honest with themselves about the important things. And so they do believe what they believe, but they do not at all understand it.

The problem with statements like this is that they make me, or you, or whoever makes them seem arrogant. Be that as it may, I still think it's true.

But I want to make one last point:
I still very much believe that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld etc... are utterly convinced that what they are or have been doing is in the best interest of the country. Some might call me naive for that, but I would actually prefer if they - or some evangelicals and other preachers - didn't believe in the nonsense they are spouting and were simply cunning manipulators who are after money and power.
NO, these people are true idealists. And THAT to me is orders of magnitude more troubling.

Posted by Marc | September 8, 2007 8:25 PM

Marc,

And I agree with what you say about Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld etc.

I'm glad you responded too, because I was thinking about this today, and I realized that I don't think I see any relevance in what it might that people are thinking or "really" believing (versus pretending to believe)when they do act. Isn't it really the actions of a person that count, regardless what their beliefs may be? When it comes to peoples' beliefs we can never really know in any case, whereas with regard to peoples' actions... that is where the rubber meets the road, I think.

It has been interesting looking into this topic. Thanks for your thoughts. Good night.

And good night to you too, Megan.

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