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Realgroenpolitik

24 Sep 2007 05:27 pm

In response to my argument that what Bush did didn't particularly matter, Matt rejoinders:

This is silly (about as silly as the view, sometimes expressed in comments, that I should avoid criticizing Megan when she writes things that are wrong on the theory that conservative views would somehow vanish if I ignored them) -- Clinton signed the treaty, knowing he couldn't get it ratified, and Bush un-signed it, knowing that there was no threat of ratification. Neither administration did what they did for no reason. Rather, they did it because of the impact on the political momentum, precisely the factor UN officials have cited to me as the relevant mechanism.

Meanwhile, let me also just say that I find there to be something incredibly wearing about this worldly-wise pose where one combines fatalism with nitpicking attacks on straw environmentalists instead of just forthrightly taking the view that the United States government ought to be indifferent to the problem of climate change. Maybe we'll do the right thing, and maybe we won't -- the future isn't written yet. One factor determining whether or not we do the right thing is whether or not right-of-center elites -- yes, including political bloggers at the Atlantic -- put emphasis on the idea that it's important for us to do the right thing.

One interpretation is that Clinton was robustly and forthrightly moving America down the road to doing something serious about climate change, and Bush shoved us off the track precisely because he doesn't want us to do anything about climate change. Another, which I find more convincing, is that Clinton signed Kyoto even knowing that it would go nowhere because he thought that this would win him cost-free points with environmentalist voters, while Bush loudly proclaimed that he wouldn't sign it in order to win cost-free points with a different set of voters.

The accusation that I am nitpicking and attacking my own side ties into a broader criticism I get from environmentalists, which is that any indication that I think the environmental movement has a less than perfect plan for combatting climate change is closely akin to class treachery.

Let's review the subjects of today's posts:

  1. Defending carbon taxes as preferable to cap and trade in the current political environment

  2. Advocating a modest unilateral approach as more fruitful than a more ambitious multilateral approach that seems politically certain to fail

  3. Debating whether we should enter into a global emissions control regime that does not include the developing world
I mean, these hardly seem like side points. They sort of seem like they're central to the policy debate. They may not produce the answer that Matt believes is true, and would certainly like to be true, which is that ambitious multilateral emissions trading regimes are well within reach. But that's not a good reason for me to suspend my beliefs about what is within the possible solution set.

I could be wrong about that; perhaps it's true that if I just keep telling everyone they've got this huge moral obligation that I believe in, they'll all wake up and decide I'm right. On the other hand, if I swing for the bleachers and miss, when I could have advanced a runner one base with a sac bunt, I'm not really doing the best thing for the team.

Perhaps Matt, and the other people thus criticizing me, are right, and I would do more good for the environmental movement by advocating Big Plans that have a high likelihood of failure, than advocating smaller projects with a decent chance of success. Perhaps we need extreme rhetoric and grand plans in order to secure an ultimate compromise on more modest measures. But if that's so, why not try to convince me, rather than angrily declaring that I'm out of bounds?

A lot of these attacks start to make me feel as if climate change policy ideas are supposed to be some sort of consumption good, where what really matters is how we all feel about our ideas.

Comments (24)

Clinton was a master of politics: He generally knew what to say, when to say it, and who to say it to -- with a mellow voice and a half-cocked smile. So yeah, it seems painfully obvious that he signed Kyoto for the voter brownie points (and maybe a bit of cheap Euro cred), not because there was any basis for believing it would put the US on the path to Environmental Salvation.

Meanwhile, the environmentalist of the Big Plans persuasion needs to accept that this world has practical limitations, trade-offs, differing points of view, entrenched opponents, and other real and inconvenient hindrances to sudden and drastic policy changes. The issuance of medieval papal bulls calling for full repentance at swordpoint are only going to increase the volume of hot air in circulation, and drive the reasonable middle (who might otherwise accept some limited terms of change in exchange for limited trade-offs and risks) into the wait-and-see camp.

Clinton signed the Kyoto treaty after the Senate voted 95-0 to not ratify it. He never submitted it for ratification. Without ratification, he might as well have not signed it.

How, exactly, did Bush "unsign" it? We never were going to comply with it and it's not the law of the land. What's wrong with acknowledging the fact that the US Congress rejected the treaty?

Having read through the Kyoto protocols, I think we did the right thing. The whole thing is a foolish exercise in diplomacy that had no real chance of accomplishing anything useful.

EI

I certainly would not criticize you, or anyone else for that matter, for taking whatever voluntary actions you believe would reduce carbon emissions. If it makes you "feel good", go for it!

However, if AGW is a problem, it is a global problem; and, it requires a global solution. Anything short of that is doomed to failure.

If China and India proceed along their current paths, it would be almost impossible for any actions by the developed world, especially modest actions, to slow, no less stop, no less reverse the accumulation of CO2 in the atmosphere.

Somehow no one but Lomborg ever points out that the climate has been changing for billions of years, the human influence is real but a small addition to other natural effects, and we would be far better off learning how to deal with the change than instituting drastic measures to fight it. The reason for this is, I presume, that the issue is not "climate change." The real issue is how the "right" people can manufacture an excuse to seize control of Western society now that the "scientific" Marxist excuse for seizing that control has turned into a discredited disaster.

On the other hand, if I swing for the bleachers and miss, when I could have advanced a runner one base with a sac bunt, I'm not really doing the best thing for the team.

Yes you are. The bunt costs your team an out. Outs are the currecy of baseball, and bunts just give them away. Except in very rare circumstances when one run wins or ties the game, swinging for the fences is the better strategy.

I understand what you're trying to say, but your baseball metaphor doesn't work.

Somehow, I think i write into empty space. Little is gained by spitting into the Environmentalist Wynde, for it matters not what argument you use, the Matt's of the world (and as the Megan's sidle ever closer to him) won't even hear you, they just think about what their next argument is going to be and, when you pause, start the next rant.

JRM

what?

on another note:

I believe that Kyoto had a positive impact on Europe. Maybe not directly on emissions as much as on "green businesses" which have created a lot of local, class-distributed jobs (especially in Germany and Spain).

In fact - Germany is investing a fair amount of money in solar project in the US due to their new-found expertise... they do not need the US to be Kyoto compliant for that now!

Kyoto has probably helped China's richest man, Shi, to pitch his idea for funding a solar plant to the government, etc.

But if that's so, why not try to convince me, rather than angrily declaring that I'm out of bounds?

Because denouncing you works for his regular readers the same way throwing raw meat to the lions works: feed them regularly and they come back often, and they tell their friends about the resulting feeding frenzy, which your friend Matt and one of your other good friends, Ezra, both encourage. Your good friends Matt and Ezra have done this to you so often, and it has been so transparent for such a long time, one marvels that you haven't figured it out for yourself by now. They are your friends after all, so you could always ask them privately why they insist on doing it. On the whole, you handle yourself quite well each time it happens, and they usually retreat to ad homs and brickbats. Toss 'em back or tell them to act like grown-ups. Or look for new friends.

I believe that Kyoto had a positive impact on Europe. Maybe not directly on emissions as much as on "green businesses" which have created a lot of local, class-distributed jobs (especially in Germany and Spain).

So basically it’s a corporate welfare program like ethanol.

Thorley Winston wrote: So basically it’s a corporate welfare program like ethanol.

I was going to jump straight to the Broken Window fallacy, but that's probably closer to the facts.

Interestingly, a couple European wind energy companies are buildling manufacturing centers in the US as we speak. A person would have to be bonging the hashish pretty hard to believe it was the Magic of Kyoto though, since the real story is that European companies have been heavily interested in the technology for a long time and therefore have a lot of expertise; and the technology is now gaining ground in the US energy market due to a combination of interest/awareness, federal tax incentives, and the fact that the technology has finally improved to the point where modern wind farms can be reasonably low-maintenance and reliable.

In fact - Germany is investing a fair amount of money in solar project in the US due to their new-found expertise... they do not need the US to be Kyoto compliant for that now!

Umm, yeah, because the 1990 baseline for the Kyoto Treaty was carefully picked. Post 1990 Germany shut down a lot of ridiculously inefficient massively polluting industry in the former East Germany which they would have shut down anyway because it was losing money hand over fist.

So basically it’s a corporate welfare program like ethanol. - Thorley

No, more like the US Defense Dept's contracts for Boeing. It spurs and helps maintain domestic expertise in an industry which is increasingly profitable in its own right.

Somehow no one but Lomborg ever points out that... - JRM

The response writes itself.

if I swing for the bleachers and miss, when I could have advanced a runner one base with a sac bunt, I'm not really doing the best thing for the team.

Megan. It's not baseball. It's tug of war.

Is Global Warming happening? Yes.
Is this a reason to panic? No.

Some things to keep in mind.

There are things happening around the globe:
China is bringing mulitple Nuclear power plants online within the next decade. Which should significantly help reduce CO2 and soot,(probably a worse troublemaker).

New technologies are being developed:

EESTOR and MIT have both claimed to have created technologies that can allow forthe creation of a capacitor that can go hundreds of miles on a single charge and can charge in under an hour.
Making the electric car a possibility.

Changes in behavior do not have to be an inconvenience:

I am still amazed that there aren't greater incentives offered to get businesses to move to compressed work weeks and/or telecommuting. It seems to me that a great deal of people could work at least a day from home or put in a 3 or 4 day work week. Not only would you get happier workers but the air would get cleaner, the demand for oil would decrease, and the maintenance costs on the infrastructure would go down.

Many, many businesses out there are very conservative and don't like to change how they do things. This may partly be related to the ISO900X and related systems where one must have written procedures for everything one does. Changing the way you do things requires a massive redocumentation effort. In addition, there are certain expected behaviors and protocols that would have to change. For example, I know that some amount (no idea how much) of business travel is for the purpose of face to face meetings intended to placate an unhappy customer or show a certain amount of commitment or seriousness in order to get business. These meetings don't actually accomplish anything that couldn't be handled over the phone or via teleconference, but they are expected.

A lot of companies are moving to 9/80 workweeks where employees get one day off every two weeks. Working from home is a problem for many companies because they like to have people available, which means the way they handle phones will have to change. The technology all exists but getting companies to actually change their infrastructure and methods is slow.

EI

Working from home is a problem for many companies because they like to have people available, which means the way they handle phones will have to change. The technology all exists but getting companies to actually change their infrastructure and methods is slow.

Too true, too true. Companies are happy enough to outsource an entire service department to Bangalore, but setting it up so that calls can quickly be forwarded through to employees' cells when they're on a home flexi-day...much harder.

Megan, your sense that some people consume climate change policy is spot on. But it's not just climate change policy. It's just about all political opinions. People get tremendous amounts of utility from seeing themselves as on the liberal team, or the conservative team, or even the libertarian team (which is really more of a club). My God, American conservatives even derive utility from the wins of "conservatives" (with whom they have almost nothing in common) in other countries (like France). Same with American liberals. For most people who are really into politics, it's a spectator sport that they get to play in a marginal way. Kind of like golf.

On the other hand, if I swing for the bleachers and miss, when I could have advanced a runner one base with a sac bunt, I'm not really doing the best thing for the team.

Somewhere, Bill James is weeping.

On the other hand, if I swing for the bleachers and miss, when I could have advanced a runner one base with a sac bunt, I'm not really doing the best thing for the team. ...

But if that's so, why not try to convince me, rather than angrily declaring that I'm out of bounds?

Is it okay to note that you should stick to hockey metaphors so when they get mangled they look more manly? [grin]

Ed Reid has a good point. Without China and India on board Kyoto was a farce from the beginning. You might almost think it was carefully calculated to damage the US economy whilst everyone else went blissfully on their way.

Your last paragraph nails it.

Megan, you are a freak. Every other person I know that has actually reduced their energy consumption is also a freak, not fitting neatly into the usual political categories. Most people are not like that. The majority of the Right, given a choice, would rather conserve a 150+ year tradition of ever-increasing energy use than try to conserve several thousand years of unusually good weather. The majority of the Left have the same opinion of carbon use that Jefferson had of slavery: it's a terrible thing, that others should give up. John Edwards may hate others' SUVs, but he'll give his up when you pry the keys from his cold, dead fingers. If Gore can't convince himself to conserve, who is capable of convincing Streisand, or China?

I can't imagine that conservation will become popular until oil becomes truly expensive.

A lot of the proposed actions make me feel that people care only about feeling good and have no understanding as to the nature of global warming and the amount due to actual anthropogenic greenhouse gasses rather than unverified and unlikely feedbacks, natural causes, and, most of all, unknowns.

And have absolutely no grasp of the nature of risk.

Persuasion Bias
http://ideas.repec.org/a/tpr/qjecon/v118y2003i3p909-968.html


Peter M. Demarzo
Dimitri Vayanos
Jeffrey Zwiebel
Abstract

We propose a boundedly rational model of opinion formation in which individuals are subject to persuasion bias; that is, they fail to account for possible repetition in the information they receive. We show that persuasion bias implies the phenomenon of social influence, whereby one's influence on group opinions depends not only on accuracy, but also on how well-connected one is in the social network that determines communication. Persuasion bias also implies the phenomenon of unidimensional opinions; that is, individuals' opinions over a multidimensional set of issues converge to a single "left-right" spectrum. We explore the implications of our model in several natural settings, including political science and marketing, and we obtain a number of novel empirical implications. © 2001 the President and Fellows of Harvard College and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology

I actually don't accept that warming is almost entirely anthropogenic. It may be, or solar forcing may account for a lot of it, but that sort of hedging would have ruined the rhythm of my last post, so I skipped it.