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The government and me, they are not the same

06 Sep 2007 02:11 pm

Matt has argued that Republican supply-side tax arguments are as if

. . . Hillary Clinton got up at the next presidential debate and said "I believe a policy of 'Medicare for all' could save enough money to pay for a universal preschool program and more generous Social Security benefits,"

Ezra says:

If Clinton said that, heads would nod. A very strong argument could be made that administrative and bargaining savings -- i.e, the government saying they're going to pay 20 percent less for Lipitor, and Pfizer will just have to deal -- from a Medicare-for-All system would save enormous amounts of money. Obama wouldn't dare attack it, he'd just argue that he doesn't think it politically possible, and the sort of policies required for those savings have tradeoffs Americans may not want to make. (Incidentally, I don't think Medicare-for-All would create those savings, but not because it couldn't, only because we wouldn't want to implement the necessary regulations.)

The problem with supply siders is that they are arguing that they can make the government money by lowering tax rates, not that they can make the economy money. Arguably single payer health care will save the economy money, but the government will be out a whole lot more cash. Government health programs already enjoy all the administrative cost savings that Ezra promises, and even really vigorous price controls bargaining on drug prices is not going to save enough from Medicare Part D to put the 247 million people currently not enjoying government insurance on the rolls.

Arguments like this are exactly why I have a hard time debating this topic: it's not clear what the people on the other side understand supply-sidism to be. If you want to frame a supply-side argument on the terms that Ezra has framed the health care debate--that "we" as a nation can save money by cutting taxes--then the supply-siders could be right; the tax cuts might make the economy grow by more than the size of the tax cut. Probably will, in fact.

The problem is a fiscal one: the government only takes in a little less than one-fifth of any extra growth that tax cut produces. So the extra growth has to be quite massive in order to overcome the lost revenue from the tax cut. Say you've got an economy worth $100, growing 10% a year with a tax rate of 25%. In year one, with no tax cut, the government will take in ($110 X .25=$27.50). If you cut taxes to 20%, the economy has to grow to $137.50 in order to make the same revenue, which means that a 5% tax cut has to more than triple the rate of economic growth. This is not likely. Although you should note that this means that supply-side claims are more likely to be right the farther out you go, since small changes in the rate of economic growth compound.

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Comments (12)

But the supply siders yell and scream when the evidence of respectable economists shows that the growth effects of tax cuts are tiny. Remember when "dynamic scoring" was the new "spotted owl" -- the thing guaranteed to get them foaming at the mouth. Well, serious people like Doug Holtz-Eakin did the dynamic scoring and it didn't produce the results the supply sides wanted. Doubtless Jim Nussle will make another run at it at OMB.

So with the tiny growth effects, you'd be waiting a very long time for the size of the economy to expand by more than the size of the tax cut. And remember, which is not clear from your example, the government is out the revenue of a tax cut each year that it cuts taxes. It's not enough to say that there's one end year where the economy will be bigger as a result of the tax cut, because the debt will have piled up in between -- with corresponding restrictive effects on growth that must be offset against any gains.

All the more reason to abandon arguing for ways to increase government revenue.

-then the supply-siders could be right; the tax cuts might make the economy grow by more than the size of the tax cut. Probably will, in fact.

Imagine a tax base of $100
Imagine a tax rate of 10%
This will produce $10 in tax revenue.

If you cut the tax rate by 10% down to 9%, the base would have to grow to $111.11 to produce the same $10 in tax revenue. A growth rate of 11.11%. Have you ever heard about an economy that grew like that? Maybe a $100 economy might but a 10 trillion dollar economy? Not so much.

Meanwhile, while the economy is struggling to get up to the $111.11 mark, spending always stays robust and oblivious and you've incurred deficits that have to be accounted for. The first year, you've got deficits. The second year, you've got interest on those deficits. Etc. Eventually the efficacy of the tax cuts gets lost in the welter of new demands. And you've still got the debt.

"Probably will, in fact" is trying to win an argument with airy assertion. In the real world, we've accumulated 3/4 of the the national debt under the 3 Republican administrations who have proposed that we operate in this fashion. How much evidence do you need before you realize that "Probably will, in fact" is simply blithe bilge?

"The problem with supply siders is that they are arguing that they can make the government money by lowering tax rates, not that they can make the economy money." This is a gross over-simplification of supply-side theory. The revenue raising attributes of "supply-sidism" was ancilary to the main point that tax cuts would stimulate economic growth because the tax cuts created incentives for people to produce, i.e. increase the supply, more goods and services. How can you make an argument over the understanding of "supply-sidism" when it is not clear whether you completely understand it (or at least not fully articulating it to your readers).

If your $10 trillion dollar economy grows by the astonishing rate of 3%, you get back to profit in under four years.

Compounding is an amazing thing.

Frankly, isn't this all academic? The Bush administration cut taxes. And now Federal revenues are ahead of projections. Maybe the administration's stated reasons for cutting taxes are all bilge (Nyhan has a pretty good list), but the actual result hardly seems catastrophic.

I support Megan. Two points. There was a big blogstorm a couple of weeks ago about how heterodox economics was shut out of the very top journals that were publishing only neo-classical economics. One way of restating the general point in political terms was that there have been very few published papers in the top 5 journals that support policies that are associated with the left while quite a few that support policies associated with the right. Doesn't that mean that looking for disagreements between established economic wisdom and the right is bound to be less fruitful? After why complain about mainstream economics if it largely supports your favorite policies?

Second, the prevailing view on the left is that the tax cut should be allowed to expire or raised to previous rates before the tax cut. There is little talk about recouping some of the lost tax revenues due to the lower rates we've had over the last six years. This policy is not supported by an argument that the previous tax increase was unwise, because than the goal should be to try to recoup (some of) the lost revenues. It is supported by a version of "supply side" economics that argues that (some of) the tax cuts did not have a discernable effect on the public debt to GDP ratio, which is not a ridiculous argument.

Jeffrey Davis wrote: "Probably will, in fact" is trying to win an argument with airy assertion. In the real world, we've accumulated 3/4 of the the national debt under the 3 Republican administrations who have proposed that we operate in this fashion. How much evidence do you need before you realize that "Probably will, in fact" is simply blithe bilge?

Factually correct, but substantively empty. The only two reasons we didn't accumulate a substantial amount of debt under the intervening two-term Democratic administration is that (1) HilaryCare, which in the end would have made utter hay out of anything resembling real fiscal responsibility, got laughed out of town and (2) the tech bubble arrived so fast, and so tall, and right on top of Cold War disarmament, that nobody in Congress saw the real magnitude of what was coming in time to pre-spend it.

The only difference between a modern Democrat and a modern Republican is that the latter wants to cut taxes and spend like mad, and the former wants to raise taxes and spend even more. The spending priorities are different in focus, but equal in magnitude, and the deficit is a yawning chasm in either case.


Good comment anony-mouse (although really you give three reasons not two, counting the disarmament)

I might disagree with one part of your comment. I'm not sure I can agree about the deficit being a yawning chasm though. The projected deficit for 2008 is about 1.5% of GDP, compared with an average over the last 40 years of about 2.4%.


Jeffrey Davis - Re: "Eventually the efficacy of the tax cuts gets lost in the welter of new demands." That certainly can happen, but its hardly a universal or something that is obvious will happen most of the time. Unless by "welter of new demands" you mean new tax increases.

anony-mous makes the "b-b-b-Clinton" argument. An attempt to overcome the severe handicap of backing the team who gave us 3/4 of the national debt with airless assertion.

Tim Fowler rolls all negative unforeseen events into the tidy ball of dung called "tax increases". There are other balls of dung out there. Wars. Cities lost to hurricanes. Among other things. It seems everyone wants to talk about the welter, but nobody does anything about it.

TF,

With this: "I'm not sure I can agree about the deficit being a yawning chasm though. The projected deficit for 2008 is about 1.5% of GDP, compared with an average over the last 40 years of about 2.4%."

Way to see the Tree.

Try seeing the Forest, from David Walker's POV:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/23/AR2006122300653.html


Jeffrey Davis - re: "Tim Fowler rolls all negative unforeseen events into the tidy ball of dung called "tax increases"." - That doesn't even vaguely resemble anything in my comment. I wasn't talking about "all negative unforeseen events" at all. I certainly didn't, and still don't attribute all of them, or most of them, to tax increases.

Mark E Hoffer - What I'm seeing and commenting on, is not just the tree but a signficant part of the forest. Walker's comments are about another, larger, but further away part of the forest, but they aren't the whole forest either. You also have to factor in the point that the $50 tril. he talks about is over a long period of time, in a growing economy. As long as the economy is growing well its managable. Doesn't mean it isn't a problem. Doesn't mean it isn't something we have to think about.

I've long been a proponent of recognizing and dealing with the long run fiscal and other types of issues arising from expensive long term government promises, commitments, entitlement programs etc. I think entitlement reform is very important, and also I think refraining from expanding the problem with new promises and programs would be a very good idea.

But those problems don't change the fact that the deficit itself is rather manageable. The promises of future spending don't represent a current deficit now, there promises of spending which will likely cause deficits in the future. If the government was a business, they would properly be reflected in a balance sheet, but not in a cash flow statement.

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