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Back to morality

30 Oct 2007 05:01 pm

I know, I'm flogging a dead horse. Fly, Flicka! Fly, damn you!

It boils down the fact that I think either exit is the proper moral response to a failing system, or it isn't. It can't be good for some people, but not for others.

Many people trying to convince me that suburban liberal parents against vouchers are not gigantic, honking hypocrites, are groping towards an economic concept. Conceding that they think the school environment does make a difference (otherwise they wouldn't have moved to a good district), they say that it's okay to pull your kid out of a system that's failing, because unless other parents stay, yours won't do any good. But its still okay to bar those who cannot afford to escape on their own means from using government means to do so, because the system will collapse.

Let me give you a word for the concept you're expressing: economists (and other sorts of social scientists) call it a collective action problem. It's a problem that arises when we can all be made better off by doing something, but only if we all do it at once. If only some people participate, the system breaks down.

One classic example is casual Fridays. Say you work at a competitive workplace where everyone tries to dress up as much as possible in order to impress their superiors. Everyone would be better off if the uniform were converted downwards into something cheaper and more comfortable. But without some means of enforcement, some brown-noser will show up in a suit to get an edge, and pretty soon we'll all be back in suits and ties. (Or in my case--eek!--panty hose).

There are a variety of ways that have been explored to overcome these problems; the general solution is management fiat, combined with shunning those who violate the code. Fiat is generally the easiest (which is not to say the best) solution to the problem.

Voucher opponents are essentially saying, "It's a collective action problem. I bow to the inevitable, even though I don't like it."

And actually, I agree: it is a collective action problem, and moreover, one that is not reasonably amenable to fiat. I see no way, unless education radically changes, to keep schools from being fairly geographically concentrated. Nor any way to force yuppies to stay put when they spawn. After the other parents have left, you are entitled to leave to.

Here's the thing, though: collective action problems rarely have partial solutions. If exit is the correct solution for players 1-55, it is also the correct solution for players 56-200. Once you have committed to exit, you are committing to the fact that other players will either follow, or suffer terribly. Having conceded that exit is the best thing for your child, you imply that it is also the best action for every other player. Moreover, as the person near the head of the queue, your exit is much more damaging to the system than the exit of the 100th player. You exited because you could, not because you had a moral right to; the 100th player has a much greater moral right to exit than you do.

Saying that it is moral for you to exit the system, while denying exit to the 100th player, is the economic equivalent of "might makes right". You have no greater moral right to exit than that 100th player; in fact, considerably less of one. You merely have the economic means.

And that's something that liberals are supposed to fight.

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Comments (22)

Megan,

I don't believe I said that the problem wasn't unfixable, I think I said I don't like your fix and that, if it fails, we'll be in lots worse shape than before.

I have constantly talked about school choice. I've talked about financial aid for students wanting to go to private schools. I've talked about a merit based system.

And you keep making the same arguments which boil down to, "this is the way I want to fix the problem and all y'all who disagree with me hate children and are hypocrites."

Well Meg, I'm insulted, and making the same argument 7 different ways and calling me names 7 different ways isn't really changing my opinions of that argument.

What limits do we place? How do we prevent abuses? What if all the schools suck? How do we make sure that more expensive to educate children get more funds? How do we prevent middle class and wealthy abuses of the system? What if the whole thing turns into some privatized abused nightmare? How do you get yourself out of the mess you've made? (look, an exit strategy!)

Maybe if you answered some of these questions and put together a cohesive, comprehensive plan I'd be more in favor of vouchers (which, again, I'm not against per se). But right at the moment it looks like it's a way for libertarians to union bust and for conservatives to be able to point to successful public education, which could easily be destroyed and say, "hey look public education doesn't work." I mostly hear "Vouchers are good because the current system SUCKS and anything would be better" and I say no to that. The current system is deeply flawed and it could be so much worse.

You impugned my morals and values and call me a hypocrite but you don't seem to see that what you’re really doing is putting out a straw man argument which lays to question your values. Just stop it already. If you're not willing to have an intelligent, thoughtful, debate than just don't keep posting. Repeating what you've been saying a lot does not make it true.

Saying that it is moral for you to exit the system, while denying exit to the 100th player, is the economic equivalent of "might makes right".

But this begs the question. Although it was dismissed in your earlier post, one of the great concerns about vouchers is that they will not adequately provide exit for everyone.

If you think vouchers won't actually help, a decision to not support them any more hypocritical than supporting any other policy that you think will fail. You've built a pretty big assumption -- that vouchers will work -- right into your claim of hypocrisy.

If you want to make this claim more convincing, you need to do more of the work convincing people that vouchers are the solution rather than just railing on their character for having a fairly understandable disagreement.

It may not provide exit for everyone. But once you've exited, you've conceded the moral right of those behind you to do so; if they can't exit, then we should fix that, not lock the firedoors to keep the other ones trapped.

Conceding that they think the school environment does make a difference (otherwise they wouldn't have moved to a good district), they say that it's okay to pull your kid out of a system that's failing, because unless other parents stay, yours won't do any good.

Again. Again. Who are these people? How many of them are there? What percentage of voucher opponents at large do they represent? How does their behavior change the fundamental conflicts of the question at hand? You have nothing to say to those questions.

You keep harping on this, and I keep pointing out that there's no possible way to know what percentage of voucher opponents these people represent; that there are many, many people of whom this is not true; and even if it were true that every or most voucher opponents were like this (which you've shown no evidence for), however appalling makes no logical difference to the issue at hand. Again, you've created your vision of what a voucher opponent is like, you assign to them all kinds of moral and ethical failings, and then you attack them from that basis. But even if it were true that voucher opponents are all this way, which it most certainly is not, that wouldn't change the basic issues at hand one iota. This whole thing is ad hominem, and ad hominem against strawmen as well.

This is from Wikipedia:

The genetic fallacy is a fallacy of irrelevance where a conclusion is suggested based solely on something or someone's origin rather than its current meaning or context. This overlooks any difference to be found in the present situation, typically transferring the positive or negative esteem from the earlier context.

The fallacy therefore fails to assess the claim on its merit. The first criterion of a good argument is that the premises must have bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim in question. [1] Genetic accounts of an issue may be true, and they may help illuminate the reasons why the issue has assumed its present form, but they are irrelevant to its merits.

And yet over the past several days, you've made this the centerpiece of your opinions on vouchers, this unsupportable, logically fallacious creation.

And you keep making the same arguments which boil down to, "this is the way I want to fix the problem and all y'all who disagree with me hate children and are hypocrites."

That truly is all there is to it.

Although I just wrote it in a different thread, I'll say again: Why do you want to plunk down all your chips on this hypocrite charge? I agree to some extent, but think school choice idea has its merits independent of the moral standing of its opponents.

Besides, are you so sure that so many suburban parents, with children aged 6-18, who send those kids to private schools or "good" suburban public schools, are actually diehard against vouchers? I would suspect that many are coming around.

I know I got turned around pretty quickly when my first child hit kindergarten age. Our options in the rural area where we lived were appalling. Not everyone thought so, however - most were essentially indifferent.

As for others who don't fit the either/or characterization - other folks I know are liberal but not strongly against vouchers, or don't have kids, or send their kids to public schools acknowledging the educational shortcomings, but truly believe in the other benefits of the system.

These different folks (especially the last group) can be passionate about the issue, but they are rational beings. The PS proponents are not taking their position out callousness for the poor, urban, rural, or otherwise. They are middle class and take a few lumps themselves in sticking with a problematic system, and mostly they know it.

As for the suburbanites, I don't believe they are motivated by the desire to further calcify the economic status of the poor. They just have misplaced ideals. Welcome to liberalism.

In gunning for suburban elites, you may be focusing on a smaller group of people than you think, considering the breadth of the issue overall. I could be wrong, but that's my view from flyover country.

Imagine a different crumbling inner city government venture: public housing.

Most people wit the means to do so would not want to live in a housing project. One group of people who don't live in public housing think that the government should give out vouchers to help people move into better housing. Another think that the government should spend way more money on cleaner hallways, maintenance, nice architecture, landscaping, security, whatever.

Either would cost the government more money, and neither is a priori obviously a better solution to the problem of bad housing. I would not say that people who live on cul de sacs who support greater investment in public housing over vouchers are hypocrites. Only those who support the status quo over vouchers are hypocrites.

Megan that fly swatter is the size of a 747... what fly are we swatting? Seems like this is an individual to group issue. Pulling you own child in the face of a geologically unchanging system, is the choice of figuring something out for your own kid, where any reform you are for, is going to take time. Likely the amount of time it take for your kid to get through school. I don't think it makes them hypocrites exactly, because even vouchers wouldn't happen within 5 years, or more. There are simply too many players involved.

Having a voucher isn't going to fix anything for people in Cabrini Green [I'm picking on it as a frame of reference you may remember, for everyone else, it is a housing project in downtown Chicago, and infamous] because the choice of school is just the beginning. Even if their kids could go to other schools, how would they get there? The logistics wouldn't help the students. Simply bussing them to another district wouldn't help, they would flood that district as well.

I'm of the position that this is a long term problem not helped by voucher because they would take away the critical mass needed for change in place. Charter MIGHT help, I have seen some of those go deeply wrong. I think the religious question is a red herring because many of those have gone by the wayside. They certainly don't have the numbers to absorb an innercity school district.

Pragmatically this ISN'T a hypocritical question. Now the variances in school funding from rich in porperty tax districts to poor in tax ones, THAT might be a moral issue... possibly deeper than anyone wants to talk on.

Last question is this. Where are all these yuppies fleeing from inner cities to the 'burbs? They already live there. they chose that a long time ago, and it probalby had much to do with not living in the city, more than the kids education. They prolly didn't have kids then...

I didn't say this was all voucher opponents. But if you want to know who these people are, Freddie, go read the original 11D thread I linked, featuring self-satisfied suburban parents saying exactly what I have described.

It is possible to oppose vouchers on other grounds, as I've tried to respond. That doesn't make me crazy. The suburban parents who have exited, though, and have knee-jerk opposition to vouchers do make me crazy, and believe me, I meet a fair number of 'em.

But once you've exited, you've conceded the moral right of those behind you to do so; if they can't exit, then we should fix that, not lock the firedoors to keep the other ones trapped.

I doubt this describes what people are actually doing by not supporting vouchers, though. They aren't locking any doors. If you can exit, great, follow me (hypothetically) out.

But if you suspect, as I do, that vouchers would help few people actually leave, and hurt those that remain, then vouchers aren't much of a solution.

Are you saying that one's exit change a calculus of who is hurt and who is helped? Or that someone who has left is now no longer qualified to make that calculus?

[To torture your analogy, if you think that because I left a burning building, I have no right to question the proper use of money for the best egress of all that remain, you are wrong. I still get to argue about whether we should use a firetruck or hire an architect to design windows that might eventually allow a few more out.]

Some threads ago, Liberalrob declared that the only possible explanation for opposition to social programs was selfishness. I reacted a bit like some of the folks above.

Here, Megan is arguing there is no basis on which a suburban parent can oppose vouchers without being a hypocrite. While much narrower than LR, I think she may be painting with too broad a brush. Furthermore, , FAE is usually more about motives (selfishness) than end-results (hypocrisy).

Anyway,such is the nature of blogging and commenting. We abhor the other guy's charges of character failings, but we usually fail to live up to our own standards.

I don't care whether people are hypocritical*, I would just like an outcome that changes the picture in places like Camden NJ, where taxpayers are paying one of the highest per-student costs in the country for one of the worst outcomes. Families there should have more options and taxpayers should demand that state bureaucrats try something different.

* Although it's nice to think as much of my snooty neighbors who disapprove of us for sending our kid to a charter school.

I see no way, unless education radically changes, to keep schools from being fairly geographically concentrated.

Isn't this exactly as big a problem for schools with vouchers as without? If what makes public schools in poor areas bad schools is the concentration of poverty, why wouldn't it be the same for private schools in the same area?

(If the argument is that public schools will inevitably require more geographical concentration than private schools, I'd say that it's not inevitable. I'd like to see much more freedom of movement for students between public schools.)

Lizardbreath wrote: If what makes public schools in poor areas bad schools is the concentration of poverty, why wouldn't it be the same for private schools in the same area?

Well, private schools do generally have more lattitude to grade on the basis of actual standards, and to isolate, discipline, and ultimately expel the hardcore troublemakers. That can't compensate for an individual upbringing that was utterly lacking in standards, but it can keep the wobbly middle-roaders from playing follow-the-leader when they realize that, unlike what they found before at all too many of the public schools, there really is an uncrossable line.

I'm not sure that's true, Mindles. I'm not investigating their motives, which may be good or not. I'm just observing that their actions do not match their stated moral or empirical beliefs about the effect of exit on the system or the individual child.

Ok, all this talk about morality and so forth has made me think about the moral basis for my voucher skepticism, and it's this:

Access to education is a moral good.

Any system, whether it be vouchers or public schools or whatever, has to meet this goal. My skepticism with vouchers is that I don't believe it will meet that goal. I think you'll have a collapse of the public schools, and a failure of sufficient private schools to pick up the slack, and so we'll get a large population of children who have access to zero education.

I'd be willing to support vouchers under the condition that no money would be taken away from the public schools. If vouchers turn out to be as wonderful as proponents say, great, maybe then we can talk about dismantling the public system. But I'm not willing to dismantle a system that does provide access to everyone, albeit inconsistently, to gamble on a system that has a good chance of leaving lots of people shut out (yes, more shut out than they already are).

The problem, of course, is that vouchers plus public schools equals higher taxes. Now, being a liberal, I don't have a visceral hatred of the word "tax," so I'd support this experiment, but I suspect a combination of conservatives and general voucher opponents would vote down the necessary tax increase.

Megan McArdle:

"It boils down the fact that I think either exit is the proper moral response to a failing system, or it isn't. It can't be good for some people, but not for others."

Sure it can. You are ignoring the main reason these schools are "failing" which is the majority of the students are poor and stupid and these students drag down the others. Allowing the "good" kids out is fine, allowing the "bad" kids out just spreads the problem.

Like a plague city, it is only moral to leave if you are not infected.

I'm not sure that's true, Mindles. I'm not investigating their motives, which may be good or not. I'm just observing that their actions do not match their stated moral or empirical beliefs about the effect of exit on the system or the individual child.
That's what I was trying to get across with my cryptic FAE/results comment. But I'm not sure. Doesn't hypocrisy (like selfishness) by definition require holding beliefs contrary to one's actions? And doesn't that call motives into question?. The definition:
1: a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion.

Now ignorance, irrationality, myopia or mania, those would explain "actions that don't match stated beliefs". Actually, my mother's a good example of that. For that matter, so was the CEO at the board meeting I attended last week. For the most part, people have complicated rationalizations for what they do. Consider Daryl Holton.

perhaps I'm counting angels on pinheads, but since I recently took such a strong stand against motive-impugning and ad hominem in the comments, I have my sensitive hat on.

I'm just observing that their actions do not match their stated moral or empirical beliefs about the effect of exit on the system or the individual child.

Megan, one does have to admit that people who put their kids in private school are still paying taxes to support their local public school.

Moving to a neighborhood where the public schools are better is a different and more complicated story.

I'm more or less with Peter Bautista on this one. I'd be for vouchers if it didn't hurt the public school system, so the educator of last resort was still around. And the vouchers have to be really, really big, big enough to realistically provide access to existing private schools. Also, I think private schools should be compelled to take some percentage of the poor kids on vouchers. Spence is not suddenly going to start accepting a lot of kids from the South Bronx of its own volition; much of the reason why parents send their kids to Spence is so they don't have to associate with kids from the South Bronx. A 10% voucher mandate on private schools would be reasonable.

Wouldn't it be easier and more sensible to move the 5-15% of the children who are the cause of 95% of the problems to a different environment so they aren't destroying school for the rest of the kids?

"Many people trying to convince me that suburban liberal parents against vouchers are not gigantic, honking hypocrites, are groping towards an economic concept. "

Every parent is a hypocrite. Get over it. We are going to be hypocrites tommorrow. We are going to be hypocrites a hundred years from now.

You know all those neat moral dilemmas you ponder as freshmen taking a philosphy course involving people in lifeboats? I got one for you. You're in a lifeboat with a man, a woman and their children. There's enough food for all but one person. As you ask for a volunteer to jump into the sea, guess who's being thrown overboard!

Congratulations. You've learned that parents are hypocrites concerning the treatment of their children. This is an unavoidable necessity. Anything else would mean that you would do anything for other children that you do for your own, which would require doing very little for your own.

Peter: I think you'll have a collapse of the public schools...

The unspoken theory here is that this collapse will be somehow different, and worse, than the collapse that exists today.

Many people trying to convince me that suburban liberal parents against vouchers are not gigantic, honking hypocrites, are groping towards an economic concept...

...Here's the thing, though: collective action problems rarely have partial solutions. If exit is the correct solution for players 1-55, it is also the correct solution for players 56-200.

Here you seem to be groping toward the proper solution, acknowledging the right of exit from all entanglements with the state.

But this is pretty bad, if I read you right:

Saying that it is moral for you to exit the system, while denying exit to the 100th player, is the economic equivalent of "might makes right". You have no greater moral right to exit than that 100th player; in fact, considerably less of one. You merely have the economic means.

You EARN your economic means. Why wouldn't that entitle you to invest your economic means in your children's education as you see fit? A family that earns it's way out a crappy school district isn't denying the right of any other family to earn it's way out.

To say that everyone is entitled to exit is great, to say that they're entitled to exit at my expense is quite another thing. Why shouldn't I be entitled to exit from the arrangement that says I have to pay for their kid's education? Because I judge that's not working out very well for me.

Hey guys,

I don't know if this will help with your situation, but it's relevant enough to put out there.

I'm the founder of a just launched Web startup called The Point(http://www.thepoint.com). The Point is a tool for people to organize collective action that only begins once enough people commit for the total action to produce a worthwhile result. In other words, it solves the collective action problem you describe in your article. You can start a campaign on The Point that says "I will do something, but only if X people agree to do it with me."

Here's a blog post that addresses Megan's point and how The Point can be used to address it: http://blog.thepoint.com/campaign-type-the-social-contract/

In theory, this model of conditional participation could be used to organize a mass exodus from a failing school. One could start a campaign on The Point of the flavor, "School XYZ must improve ABC or else we will all transfer our children to another school once 500 parents join."

Parents can even join anonymously, their identities only being revealed once the campaign hits the specified "tipping point."

The Point might need more development to credibly pull something like this off. I'm interested if you folks think this basic model could help with this problem, and if there is anything we can do with the site to make it more helpful for you.

- Andrew

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