I am Irish American, as I think I may have mentioned (and if I didn't, I imagine the name gave it away). I have spent a decent amount of time in the Irish-American community (think Irish dance lessons and traditional music performances), and my family has certainly spent much more.
As you may know, Irish people have a certain disdain for Irish Americans and their romantic conception of a largely imaginary Emerald Isle. Irish Americans who talk about Ireland are frequently derided as ignoramuses who know little about the actual Ireland, and operate under the delusion that their heritage, or perhaps their gene, qualify them to opine on it. Fair 'nough; I love me some cable knit sweaters, but frankly even I'm a little sick of all the "Celtic and Irish Handicraft" outlets springing up like shamrocks after an Irish rain in the malls of America.
I was, however, a little taken aback to experience the reverse phenomenon when discussing, with an Irishman in a bar, the fact that some Irish Americans still supported the IRA even after 9/11, a fact that I find more than a little shameful. Of course, I come from perhaps the only Irish American family in the world that gives money to the SDLP. But I digress.
But that's so 1990's, he said. Everything's different now. You don't know what you're talking about. This roughly echoes something Kieran Healy said when I posted on the subject several months ago.
Indeed, much has changed in Ireland. But we weren't discussing Ireland. We were discussing America. And I know a lot more about being a third-or-more generation Irish person in American than he, or Mr Healy does. Nonetheless, I went back and checked with other sources in the Irish American community.
Yup, indeed, donation to the IRA continued long after 9/11, with an explicitly martial tone to the solicitations.
Now I'm trying to figure out who's got the mote, and who's got the beam. God bless the Irish . . . no one else will.
don't feel bad, it's not just the Irish. My Italian relatives simultaneously think that I (despite being born there) know nothing about Italy anymore, and also somehow (despite not knowing a word of english) that they know more about American politics than I do based on their two trips here in the last 20 years and their knowledge of the NBA and celebrity court procedings. Actually, I have one cousin, who's 21, who does speak english and briefly studied in the US, but he's the only one who stops yelling long enough to listen to what I have to say (admittedly slowly and with poor grammar, as my Italian is lousy these days) at gatherings. whether its West of the Shannon or south of the Tiber, maybe there's something about being dumped on that makes you think that you know everything.
Maybe I missed the Memo, but what does the IRA have to do with 9/11?
It happens all over. I was in England, and several of the pub regulars in town in the North I was in claimed to know all about American politics, yet were confused about whether Labour had a majority in Parliament or not, eventually coming down on the side of a minority government. (Dead wrong, of course.) They also claimed that there was more separation of powers in the UK system, with Parliament able to override the Prime Minister more than Congress does the President.
Maybe I missed the Memo, but what does the IRA have to do with 9/11?
There was a (false, sadly) hope that the experience of actual terrorism in NYC might make some of the Hibernian fools realize that it's not so romantic when it hits home, however nice it sounds to struggle against perfidious Albion across the Atlantic.
The Irish joined forces with the Jews to carry out 9/11. Haven't you heard of the dread Roth IRA?
The Irish joined forces with the Jews to carry out 9/11. Haven't you heard of the dread Roth IRA?
Pardon me while I go freshen up my coffee cup and my keyboard.
Paul wins the thread.
I'm not Irish, but I think Megan's point was that the IRA, perhaps not the best organization in the world to begin with, being prone, on occasion, to murder people, seems even less worthy of American support when we see that murder can be used as a political tool, not just against the Brits, but against Americans.
I might note that the IRA drew very open support from Americans for decades and that Ronald Reagan did not lift a finger to halt flow of money and arms to the IRA even after the IRA came close to assassinating Margaret Thatcher. And I doubt if Rudy gave them a hard time either.
How wide spread is Irish-American financial support for the IRA? Anybody know?
I really have no idea, but, I grew up in an Irish-Catholic family in Boston -- lots of cousins, aunts, uncles, etc (and not to mention hundreds of ethnically similar friends and acquaintances over the years) -- maternal grandmother born in the old country around 1900 -- and I don't think I've ever heard a single positive reference to the modern (as opposed to the circa 1916 variety) IRA, much less heard mention or even rumor of someone who had actually given them money. I don't think American financial contributions to this particular terrorist outfit prove anything more than the fact that every ethnic community has a few whackjobs amongst its ranks. Then again maybe I've just lived a sheltered life. But this is Boston. So I doubt it.
Has the IRA killed many people since the Good Friday agreements? The murder of Robert McCartney in January 2005 (which was more like a common bar fight and distinctive only because the IRA members involved successfully threatened all witnesses into silence) worked very much against them and Sinn Fein; even Sen. Kennedy treated Gerry Adams coldly when Adams visited the U.S. afterwards.
I'm not saying that a group that only murders a few people is a worthy charity, only that some of those post 9/11 donations by Irish-Americans may have been made under the impression that the IRA was not going around killing civilians anymore.
Meg - You should have been at the LA book fair a few years ago - Gerry Adams (who Bush gets along with, btw) was on a panel with Jhumpa Lahiri. All the bookish swells gathered around Adams to listen to him hold forth on Ireland. He had them in the palm of his bloody (not as bloody as Bush & Cheney - granted) hand.
You know Greeks and Greek Americans are different too. The Greeks have moved on a bit more from older history.
Yup, indeed, donation to the IRA continued long after 9/11, with an explicitly martial tone to the solicitations.
You mean the donations have since stopped? The IRA had better get around to killing somebody soon.
The point was that Adams appeal in LA was certainly not limited to Irish Americans. And a good case can be made that Adams deserves the lions share (no ironic pun intended) of credit for making that Good Friday agreement.
Anyway - that being said, there is a strange provincialism in Irish American circles compared to Irish. You would think it would be the other way around considering the multi generational prosperity that Americans enjoy. But 'tis not so
Why would the donations have an explicity "martial" tone to them? Did anyone get the memo that the Provos announced an end to their armed campaign over two years ago and that one year ago the Independent Monitoring Commission concluded they were no longer a threat? Even in the last decade or so, they've been more of a crime syndicate made up of thugs than a guerilla army with a set purpose.
Even if that weren't the case, arguing that formerly sympathetic Americans would somehow find a moment of clarity after being attacked on their own soil or that the only people that could possibly be willing to offer support the PIRA are those not in the line of fire is foolish. After all, the Provos had plenty of support right at home by people that lived with the consequences of their campaign every day of their lives.
Since I'm a first generation Harpo-American, and I've actually spent 2+ years of my life in Ireland, I'm inclined to dismiss Megan's so-called deep knowledge of the country and these issues out of hand.
I'm always disgusted when Americans write about these issues without even mentioning the issue of Protestant/British-sponsored terrorism in Ulster - as though the IRA had been acting without provocation all these years. That attitude arises from either pure ignorance or pure laziness, as my father would say.
I can look clearly at Ian Paisley and Gerry Adams and say that one is a worthless, cowardly bigot, and one has done some good work to ratchet down the violence. Of course the true change as been the recent economic success in the Republic - even the Protestants of Ulster hope to get in on that action.
Moe - no one would disagree with you - It was just the context of the post. Anyway - the war is over. Basically Tories are right that Blair surrended in '98 - They had tactical victories and propaganda victories, but the econonmy and demos were going the other way.
ML&J,
You make an excellent point about Americans who manage to write on this subject with a tone of authority who laughably don't even know that organizations such as the UVF/LVF/UDA even existed. But honestly, it's a bit of useless "whataboutery." My problem with post like Megan's is that it makes a black-and-white issue out of a situation with many, many shades of grey. There were truly horrible, inhuman acts of violence carried out by both sides. And you can compare an unflinching bigot like Ian Paisley to Gerry Adams while ignoring other Unionists who were willing to make the compromises that brought the war to an end, but that's not being fair. I'd credit guys like John Hume and David Trimble a lot quicker than someone like Gerry Adams, who really sought peace for his own self-interests, once he realized there aren't many other politicians that are willing to shake hands with a guy who leads a party with their own private army. Besides, the economic success has hardly been recent. Ireland hasn't been called "the Celtic Tiger" for over a decade now for no reason. As for Northern Ireland's Protestants wanting "in on that action," wasn't one of Sinn Fein's biggest beefs is that they already were in on ALL of the action, to the deliberate detriment of the province's Catholics?
Don't forget the execrable congressman King (R-NY), and all he's done to try to preserve Americans' rights to held fund the IRA's bombings...
My experience is similar to Jasper's. Furthermore, my experience is that the majority of Americans of all ethnicities rarely donate to political causes, so I doubt Irish-Americans and a foreign terrorist army would be an exception to that rule. Aren't we really talking about a handful of foolish rich people with money to burn?
(Also, I thought Miss McArdle had recently revealed herself to be a half-WASP Baptist. How deep do her connections in the Irish-American community really go? Of course, I'm half-Polish so maybe mine don't go very deep either.)
Ya, I'm with James and Jasper. My parents are from Ireland and I grew up in an Irish-American community in New York. I also lived for many years in several Irish neighborhoods in Boston. I don't know a single Irish-American (as in, born in America) who ever gave one cent to the IRA.
If IRA fundraising in the US had been so successful, why did they waste all that time time robbing banks, laundering diesel, and selling drugs? Surely a little stint in NY raking in the cash would have been more pleasant.
And I can't imagine what "sources" there are to be consulted, as I don't think the IRA files tax returns... Perhaps you mean Sinn Fein? which is a legitimate political party, like it or not - it's the second-biggest party in Northern Ireland, and they're currently forming the coalition government.
I'm not saying no money ever came from America, but it wasn't coming in from a large number of naive Irish-Americans. Anyone I ever knew who had anything to do with Sinn Fein, for example, was actually from the island of Ireland. And clearly the IRA would have been even harder to penetrate - even if they wanted to, Irish-Americans wouldn't know where to send the check. We are talking about a handful of people, as James says.
What does the comment, "God bless the Irish...no one else will" mean? Hmmmm....