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Patience, children

23 Oct 2007 06:38 pm

Ezra and Brian are complaining that it's hard to get anything done these days:

I think it's almost certainly wrong that we're not overwhelmed by the volume of tragedy in the world -- there'd have to be something genuinely wrong with you to be able to absorb the current moment in some coherent way. So what many of us do is pick and choose. But once an issue is selected, there's no real step two. Marching doesn't work. Exhortations to write a letter or shoot an e-mail seem increasingly hoary, particularly as the process is taken over by organized pressure groups able to flood legislators with millions of e-mails. Volunteers are generally misused, and even when a campaign tries to construct a movement out of them, it can backfire, discrediting the whole enterprise (see Dean, Howard, and those $%*^*# orange beanies). The utter inadequacy of contemporary methods of protest and social action has been well established -- it's even been recast as narcisstic. As Martin writes:

. . .

At the end of the day, there's really one good option: Donating money. Possibly even raising it. And so political activism becomes indistinguishable from consumerism, and relies on funding other people's ability to make a difference. Some groups, like Moveon, have done brilliant work at involving their small-time funders in the process, closing some of that gap. But the average campaign or cause is not nearly so innovative. And so most who want to be involved, who want to make a difference, are left writing a check, and never, themselves, feeling impactful.

First of all, the notion that this is some sort of uniquely horrible moment in world history is absurd. I grew up with the very real fear that one day, without much warning, I would simply vanish in a radioactive cloud. The fear of nuclear annihilation was the ever-present undercurrent to the lives of children living in major urban areas, or near military installations, in a way that you simply cannot comprehend unless you've lived it. Compared to the threat of global thermonuclear war, any of the world's current problems, including climate change, are trivial.

With the exception of climate change--and even then, remember, it was already happening twenty years ago; we just didn't see it--pretty much everything one can think of is better than ever. Wars are fewer, and kill fewer people. Everyone's richer. Racism and xenophobia are bad, but not as bad as they used to be. Women have more freedom and opportunity than at any other moment in world history. Health care is better. Our teeth are cleaner, straighter, and less cavity-filled. We know more, do more, and enjoy more than human beings ever have before. I mean, things may look pretty grim compared to the three years at the end of the last millenium, but that's life: you have good years, then you have less good years, then you have better years again.

But of course, people now in their early twenties don't really remember anything before the late Clinton administration; no wonder everything seems like it's going to hell in a handbasket. Their baseline is an unsustainable economic bubble in an unprecedented peacetime lull following the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Not only did things used to be worse; very few people managed to do anything about it. Think of the communists languishing for decades, their only substantial achievement stealing nuclear secrets for Stalin. Or the student movement of the 1960's which contributed to the end of the war, but lost on everything else they wanted, and moreover only fought against the war because half of them thought Ho Chi Minh was the good guy. Or the decades it took for the NAACP et. al. to get America to the point where we could even have a civil rights movement. The narrative where you pour out of the classroom, tell everyone how wrong they are, and sit back and wait for magic social change is a fantasy cooked up by the Baby Boomers. Who, by the way, destroyed the effectiveness of protest by creating a protest culture which emphasized alienation from, rather than solidarity with, the larger culture.

Update Brian says his argument is not that the world is worse, but that the avenues of action are fewer. Fair enough, but I don't think that's really true. I'll re-emphasize two points above. First, most grassroots action never achieves anything, because most grassroots action is at odds with what the majority wants. You can wave your polls about the environment until you're blue in the face, but I maintain that the public gets a lot angrier about rising gas prices than about climate change, which tells me where their actual priorities lie. People look at the civil rights movement and think "Yeah! That's the way to do it!" but it was preceeded by decades of slow, painful work preparing for it. Likewise, it took decades to get women the vote. Most major political change occurs at a glacial pace.

In passing, I wonder if the left isn't having a hard time getting it together precisely because sixties nostalgia is making it hard to, as conservatives did in the sixties, develop a thirty-year plan.

The other thing I would emphasize is that protesting minorities generally succeed when their letters, marches, etc. emphasize their role as part of a larger culture. This is why the breast cancer lobby is overwhelmingly more successful than, say, the antiwar movement.

But on a lot of issues, the grassroots culture really emphasizes alienation rather than connection. Antiwar protests might not have stopped the war no matter what, but it's a safe bet they'd have garnered more sympathy and respect for their views had more of the protesters shown up dressed for the Elks Lodge Annual Dinner Dance rather than Sunday afternoon in the Village. Undoubtedly, in an ideal world conformity to restrictive social norms would not be a prerequisite for activist success, but you're stuck with the primate tribe you got born into, where it largely is. The boomers got away with it because they were the largest generation in American history, and had recently been given the vote. No one else will get to repeat that feat.

Comments (138)

"very real fear ... of nuclear annihilation"

eh, not so much. more like the very hyped fear of nuclear annihilation.

"The fear of nuclear annihilation was the ever-present undercurrent to the lives of children living in major urban areas, or near military installations, in a way that you simply cannot comprehend unless you've lived it."

ooooooh, scary monsters!!!!

And didn't you just write a post entitled "The personal isn't political (always)"? Please try to cut down on the 180 degree shifts; you're giving your readers whiplash.


cmon Megan, Russia still has a vast collection of ICBMs. Why not so scared now?

Francis, you have no clue. When I was 6 I knew that, with almost no warning, I could be dead. It wasn't some made up boogieman made to scare me, it was the reality everyone knew about. You live in NYC, you're the first ones to go. I remember watching "The Day After" when I was 10 and thinking how glad I was that, if it happened, I would be dead.

Interestingly my husband, who is 7 years older and grew up in the middle-of-nowhere felt the opposite in that he was horrified at the thought that he wouldn't die.

What I find really odd about Meg's post is that my spouse and I had this conversation yesterday. CNN had something about the wildfires in California being attributable to climate change and I made a comment about how depressing it was and he said something about how, compared to what we grew up with, it was really not all that scary. And he was right.

Yes, there are lots of ICBMs in the world, and yes, probably some of them are floating around, but it is unlikely that all of them will be launched at the same time destroying everything. It's much more likely that it will be isolated and most of us will be able to survive (admittedly with some very negative effects). I don't worry about the world ending due to global thermonuclear war anymore.

Francis... "hyped" though it may be, that doesn't make it false. The USSR assumed the US was making a first strike during training exercises and the world almost got blown to smithereens accordingly.


"cmon Megan, Russia still has a vast collection of ICBMs. Why not so scared now?"

Maybe because Russia is not a) the primary ideological opponent of the US b) posturing itself for nuclear war on the same level as the USSR? For all Putin's aspirations and irritated diplomatic exchanges, preparing to go to war with the other is no longer either the US or Russia's primary security concern.

This reminds me of when my dad used to talk about the "good old days." He grew up during the Great Depression (born in 1920). He said "Son, when people say they wish they lived in the good old days, they don't know what they're talking about. I lived back then and life was HARD. We had to work before the sun came up till after it set. We didn't have TV or telephones or refrigerators. We didn't even have indoor plumbing. These days we're living in now are the real "good old days.""

No, no, no, Megan. The party line is that Bushitler is the most uniquely evil and awful that the country has ever had. "Worst president ever." There's some question (check out Jim Henley's blog) if he'll leave office peacefully when his term is over.

Given these premises, Ezra et al. do face a disturbing conundrum: why aren't their youthful peers doing more about the most horrible government America has ever had? The answer must be some historically unique set of circumstances promoting quiescence. It can't be anything else.

"moreover only fought against the war because half of them thought Ho Chi Minh was the good guy. "

As one who was draft eligible in 1969-70, allow me to say that the main reason 98% of the males of my generation even cared about Vietnam was the draft. Now there were certainly those who truly believed that Ho was the George Washington of Vietnam. But without the draft and the massive call-up, the rallies would have been mighty lonely.

If you want to instill a sense of activism in today's 19-23 yr olds, institute a draft. They'll be in the streets in droves.

And another thing--Woodstock sucked if you were actually there. The movie is cool; the actual event--not so much.

Ezra's point was a substantive one: he feels that the avenues available to him to advocate for social change are either ineffective or unsatisfying by virtue of being equivalent to consumerism.

Ezra's point is completely asinine, of course. If he feels strongly about something, there remain open to him the same avenues that have historically been effective for advocates of social change: depending on how strongly one feels, tactics range from polite political agitation to violent insurrection. It's just that Ezra really doesn't care enough about anything in particular to consider getting arrested in order to effect change. He feels as though he ought to be willing to do something effective, but since he isn't willing to live with the consequences that that action would entail he whines that there's nothing he can do. Asinine.

Ezra's whining, however silly, is still significantly less obnoxious than the Pollyanna response you came up with. Sure, absolutely, it is getting better all the time. It's not even worth arguing: is it "better" now than during the Roman empire? By what standard? Within what timeframe? For who? For what purposes? It's comforting that things in general are better now for someone than they were at some unspecified point in the past, but it's also obviously and disturbingly true that things are much much worse than things were for someone else at some other unspecified point in time. Vapid.

Besides, whether things are better of worse isn't even tangential to the issue Ezra was whining about. His whining takes as stipulated that things are bad, not that they're worse than at some other time. He's complaining about what to do, not whether to do something.

I was born in '63 in NYC and didn't leave until '89 when I moved to California, and I always thought the fear of nuclear war was overdone. Maybe having a parent who lived through WWII in France cut down on the scary stories.

So yes Kate, I have a clue. Several, in fact. (I was THERE, man!) Spare me all of your childhood terrors. Every kid has them.

And I still think that this post of Megan, with its oh-so-pretentious title and its oh-so-exclusive understanding of the fear of nuclear war was pretty damn awful, especially when juxtaposed against her earlier post about the personal not being the political.

"The fear of nuclear annihilation was the ever-present undercurrent to the lives of children living in major urban areas, or near military installations, in a way that you simply cannot comprehend unless you've lived it."

Fear of instantaneous annihiliation, the end of the world etc, is nothing new, and it is certainly not unique to the baby boomer generation. People have been believing for millenia that the end of the world is upon them, that the world as we know it could cease to exist tommorrow, or in two minutes. It is irrelevant whether the object of fear is the nuclear boogyman or god or the devil or whatever. The most interesting thing, imo, is how many people actually seem to desire the end of the world and want to be here when it happens. They can't wait, it'll all be over soon.

But, according to Mike Huckabee and David Horowitz et al, Islamofacism is the greatest danger America has ever confronted (their words, I'm not making this up). By posting this nessage on Islamofacism awareness week no less, you're clearly showing you're for the terrorists.

Megan, why do you hate America?

Thank you Megan! For everywhere in the world except parts of the Middle East and much of sub-Saharan Africa, this is a friggin' Golden Age. Which isn't saying a whole hell of a lot, but no less true for it. Can you imagine what it felt like in 1939? 1914? Jeez, how about December 1950 (the worst week in Korea was far worse than the worst week in Iraq, for US casualties) or April 1968?

The world isn't going to hell, and neither is the US. Yes, despite eight years of incomparably stupid governance on our end of things. As to what to do, how about we elect a candidate who's extremely smart, knows how to get things done in the political system we have rather than some idealized one that won't ever exist, and has general principles that (translated into policy) will address the most pressing needs at home and win back admiration for our country abroad. I'll give you a hint: a lot of people have a reflexive, irrational hatred of her. That's two hints.

The fear of nuclear annihilation was the ever-present undercurrent to the lives of children living in major urban areas, or near military installations, in a way that you simply cannot comprehend unless you've lived it.

This Army brat seconds that. I remember being in the first grade when I figured this one out. Freaked me out for a while.

Fear of instantaneous annihiliation, the end of the world etc, is nothing new, and it is certainly not unique to the baby boomer generation.

Yes, but during the cold war, such fear was legitimate. That's the unique thing, imho.

I think this comment by Ezra says it all about the left -- whether in the 1960s or the present:

And so most who want to be involved, who want to make a difference, are left writing a check, and never, themselves, feeling impactful.
There were legitimate claims of injustice; there still are, though many fewer and less significant. But for the left, it's not really about those injustices, but about how they feel. (Notice that he doesn't complain that writing a check is ineffective -- just that it doesn't "feel" like he's doing enough.)

Ezra's comment is just sheer narcissism on all sides. He thinks things are horrible now because he's experiencing them. And he's upset because he personally doesn't feel effective.

But at the same time, it's clear that it's narcissism combined with laziness; it's clear that what he really wants is to do more than just write a check -- but without having to put in much effort. A protest is easy. You show up one morning with your sign and march around for a while. Letter writing is trivial. What he wants is to be able to do these things and for them to work. That way, he can "feel" like he's making an impact without having to do much.

Stephen Colbert pointed out that when the student got tasered at the Kerry speech in Florida, all the other students sat there and did nothing. Other than going home and posting the incident on YouTube. Nobody interfered, or even verbally challenged the cops. They just sat there passively.

Ezra's whining, however silly, is still significantly less obnoxious than the Pollyanna response you came up with. Sure, absolutely, it is getting better all the time. It's not even worth arguing: is it "better" now than during the Roman empire?
Yes.
By what standard?
Any standard.Within what timeframe?Don't understand the question
For who?
Everyone.
For what purposes?
Don't understand the question.
It's comforting that things in general are better now for someone than they were at some unspecified point in the past, but it's also obviously and disturbingly true that things are much much worse than things were for someone else at some other unspecified point in time.
No, it isn't. In fact, it's pretty obviously false. Technology is a wonderful thing.

This is hilarious and sad, from ezra's post:

"I think it's almost certainly wrong that we're not overwhelmed by the volume of tragedy in the world -- there'd have to be something genuinely wrong with you to be able to absorb the current moment in some coherent way."

I find left leaning activist to be egotistical and self-centered. To be authentic, one has to be drowned in angst and sorrow. its sad. and its not healthy.

bottom line: one can be deeply engaged with world events and still be happy and hopeful.

In fact, I would bet that the activists who are changing the world the most aren't "overwhelmed" by the problems in the world.

Back in the 19th century, when civil service reform was a major issue, there were people who considered their life work a success if they managed to protect a third assistant postmaster from political re-appointment (paraphrased from Edmund Morris, Theodore Rex).

The real root of Ezra's discontent is that he wants to change the whole world, or nothing. If he just concentrated on changing his local public school, he might be just as frustrated, but he could at least be certain of being heard.

David Hacket Fischer describes the world of Paul Revere as one of the "voluntary association." There's a mechanism for making a difference without the taint of commerce. Of course Paul Revere was just trying to change King George's policy in Boston, a city of 16,000 people. And he was willing to work through the network of tradesmen of whom he was a part. Ezra Revere would be trying to change King George's policy in India, with predictable results.

Now is a value free state of affairs.

Whether you judge things to be better or worse depends not on the state of affairs we call "now" but rather on what you consider "better."

Whether I agree with your assessment of now as Better or Worse depends on the extent to which I agree with the standards you use to arrive at that judgment. And whether I find the judgment useful for my purposes, as opposed to yours.

There aren't any standards of value which I am compelled to view as absolute. I can always disagree, and in disagreeing I will always be right.

Cope.

henry,
Ezra says "But once an issue is selected, there's no real step two." And then he goes on to talk about why that's a problem.

"What I find really odd about Meg's post is that my spouse and I had this conversation yesterday. CNN had something about the wildfires in California being attributable to climate change and I made a comment about how depressing it was and he said something about how, compared to what we grew up with, it was really not all that scary. And he was right."

Oh, yes. The reality of 2000+ homes destroyed so far in the worst fire in known history in California, with 500,000 people evacuated from their homes, is not at all scary next to something we grew up with that never even happened. And next to the werewolf that scared the bejeezus out of me on "Dark Shadows", hurricane Katrina was really not all that bad. Because, you know, stuff that happened to me, even when it didn't really happen, is way worse than stuff that is really happening to someone else right now.

Don‘t cry because it is over, smile because it happened.

How many of you remember watching The Day After on TV, and how scared and depressed it made you feel? I remember my sister starting crying when we watched it.

We were right to be scared. We'd be smart to stay a little scared today, since accidents can happen (and almost did).

What's changed with the Muslim nutters today is that the odds of total annihilation (i.e., every major city in America nuked at the same time) have gone down, but the odds of one nuke going off in America have gone up. I find it odd that those who remain nonchalant about this possibility tend to be the ones who whine the most about the Patriot Act. What sort of legislation do you imagine would get passed into law in the days following a terrorist nuclear attack in this country? I'm right-winger, and I even worry when I think about that. Our open society would be history.

Although the reason to be fearful was real during the Cold War, that doesn't mean that the fear wasn't used as a means of manipulation to some extent. Michael Crichton makes a great point about this in his book State of Fear, where a character points out that it wasn't coincidental that fears of Global Warming became promulgated right after the end of the Cold War. We went from fears of Nuclear Winter to fears of Global Warming in no time flat.

Yes, global thermonuclear war did almost happen, most notably on two occasions, in 1962 and 1983. In fact, if the Soviet early warning satellite malfunction which occurred in September 1983 had occurred a few weeks later, during the Able Archer NATO war games, and Robert McFarlane had not scaled back the scope of the war games at the last moment, civilization may have disappeared over purely trivial misunderstandings. The chance of such an outcome is so much more remote today that it cannot even be credibly compared.

The historical ignorance that ostensibly well educated people regularly display is often surprising, and anyone who believes that this is a particularly terrible or especially challenging moment in the history of civilization, even modern civilization, doesn't really know anything at all.

Sarah, a couple thousand insured homes burning up in the richest society in all of human existence is not very scary at all, and yes, it's happened to me. Yawn.

I have about 10 years on Megan and while as a kid the idea of mutual assured destruction was known to me and my generation, I don't recall thinking about it much. The generation before mine, what with duck-and-cover movies likely was a little more anxious about it.

In college everyone had lots and lots of time to consider the state of the world generally, obsess, pontificate or become overly earnest about such things. Nena and her 99 red balloons might have caused some additional chatter but really it struck me as what I'd now call proto-Euro agi-prop, though she was hot and the song, danceable.

I guess as we approached the fall of the USSR the generation just after mine felt the threat more acutely, or perhaps we should just blame Nena.

All that said, I think Megan is right-on -- people can naturally lose perspective and may be subject to hyperbole. The more strongly held a belief or hatred, the more prone to this they are. So when I hear people hyperventilate about how bad things are, I never doubt their sincerity, but I do doubt their ability to put things in perspective. I hope I do this equally well with both liberals and conservatives, but I'm sure I fail depending on the specific topic.

The real root of Ezra's discontent is that he wants to change the whole world, or nothing. If he just concentrated on changing his local public school, he might be just as frustrated, but he could at least be certain of being heard.
An excellent point. I've heard many liberals oppose the notion of donating to private charity because it doesn't do "enough." (And if it doesn't, better not to try at all.) Rather than helping the person in front of them, they want to "change the system." Amnesty International -- an organization most liberals support, I assume -- famously uses as a slogan the old saying, "Better to light one candle than curse the darkness," but liberals don't seem to believe that generally.

Man, maybe it's just because my parents were hippies, but I remember the constant belief that we could be nuked any given year. The Nuclear Doomsday Clock wasn't crankery, nor were the two or three close calls we had.

Francis, you might be right that the threat of nuclear annihilation was overblown at the time, but that logic probably applies equally to today's threats. Most threats turn out to be overblown, except for the one that gets you.

That said, the idea of Mutually Assured Distruction as a stable long-term strategy for survival still strikes me as crazy, and I am constantly amazed when I hear today's 20-something liberals announce that no matter how many countries get nukes, it will be ok because the leaders of all those countries know that we would nuke them in retaliation. That is a lot of faith in a doctrine that the liberals of my youth (justly, IMHO) rejected, and the conservatives grudgingly accepted as the best of a bad set of choices.

Megan's in her late forties, early fifties?

cs, I'm pretty sympathetic to Ezra's discontent. My issues are not his, but it is frustrating to be separated from making a difference by a green ceiling.

But there's still something comical about a pundit complaining how hard it is to End War and Remake Global Capitalism. It's a Fabian conceit: I have the solution to the world's troubles but nobody will listen to me.

I bring up local schools and the Boston colonial population of 16,000 to provide an alternate context for Ezra's lamentation. When localities have power (i.e. as described in Christopher Alexander's communitarian A Pattern Language, or alternatively in Robert Nozick's libertarian Anarchy, State, and Utopia), then individuals and the voluntary association can make a difference.

The irony of the modern advocacy movements whose ineffectiveness Ezra bemoans is that they seek big solutions -- if not local, then federal; if not federal, then transnational.

By aggrandizing the exercise of top down power (the problem is not the power, but the fact they don't have it), the marchers buttress the institutional view that marginalizes themselves as individuals.

Or the student movement of the 1960's which contributed to the end of the war, but lost on everything else they wanted, and moreover only fought against the war because half of them thought Ho Chi Minh was the good guy.

You just can't resist throwing in hyperbole about those dirty hippies, can you? With the implication, of course, that today's anti-war movement (such as it is) is just a bunch of dirty, Ahmadinejad- and Saddam-loving hippies, too.

If you're wondering why so many liberals hate you, Megan, it's not your substantive positions, it's your rhetoric.

Henry's posing a false choice: try to improve your local schools or try to end the war. Most liberals I know do both. And what if the local school is failing because of a lack of resources, and the lack of resources is connected to the billions we're squandering on the war? The fact that we spend more on the military than the rest of the world combined just might, it seems to me, be connected to the fact that we receive fewer social services, from education to health care, than the citizens of every other developed country.

And when I read the pieces that Megan linked to, I don't see a general lament that "things are bad today", I see a specific lament that the people of this country want this war ended, and yet the war doesn't end. Congress continues, by wide margins, to vote money for the war, and the top three Democratic contenders for President have said that they cannot commit to a complete withdrawal of U.S. troops, even by 2013.

We've all been raised on the belief that we live in a democracy, so the realization that we don't would tend to be a downer.

I'm sorry that you don't like to remember that the antiwar movement's motivations weren't always particularly laudatory, but that's not ad hominem; it's a fact. The student movement of the 1960s had a lot of wacked out ideas that I'm very glad they *couldn't* get passed. If this makes you hate me, so be it.

I don't know what specific tragedy prompts Ezra Klein's sense of powerlessness. Tops on my personal list: I find it disgusting to the point of intolerability that soldiers from my country are killing innocent people every day for no good reason whatsoever. The intolerableness is compounded by the fact that the killing they're doing, and the mission of occupying an Arab country in general, is constantly, day by day, increasing the odds that an American city will suffer a catastrophic terrorist attack within the next decade. The attack could be nuclear, and most likely, the city will be New York again, which is where my parents live. It's a stupid policy, created by stupid men, which is likely to get a lot of innocent Americans killed, just as it's already gotten a lot of innocent Iraqis killed. Most of the country wants it to stop, and has for years. And yet there doesn't seem to be anything one can do about it. So if the mood in the country sometimes seems to be approaching the fever pitch of 1968, that's the main reason why.

MAD has a decent chance to be a workable doctrine over a long period of time when the number of actors reamins fairly low. It almost inevitably suffers catastrophic failure once the number of actors grows large enough. How large is large enough? Hard to be precise, but I fear we might eventually find out some day.

SteveB, I'm not trying to present a choice. I'm pointing out that the idea of being heard and having a direct personal impact on an issue -- the theme of Ezra's essay -- will necessarily correlate to the level at which your activism is directed. If you direct your activism at a global problem, your individual impact will be different than if you direct your activism at a local problem.

What I hear you say is that the sense of personal impact derives from success. This is probably true, but Ezra is trying to say something a little more profound. He is not just alienated by failure (well, probably, he is), he is alienated by a system of advocacy that mainly devolves to writing checks.

Yeah, brooksfoe, the desire of fanatical people to inflict a catastrophic terrorist attack upon New York City was markedly smaller before the Baathists were removed from power in Iraq by American military forces. If it weren't for those stupid people you decry, New York City would be much, much, safer. Yeah, that's it.

This is why the breast cancer lobby is overwhelmingly more successful than, say, the antiwar movement.

Surely it helps just a bit to be against something no one's in favor of?

Even if a statement is true, that doesn't mean it's not an ad hominem fallacy, as you should remember from Logic 101.

But I didn't claim you were committing the ad hominem fallacy. I claim that you're engaged in pointless insults that have nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of your post.

And anyway, it's not true that half of the anti-war movement in the 60s was motivated by pro-Ho Chi Minh sentiments. That's hyperbole. And hyperbole is a particularly inflammatory form of rhetoric.

It was more than a small percentage of the anti-war movement that thought Ho Chi Minh was some kind of hero. And even amongst those who were, that was mostly a self-deluding effect of their anti-war sentiments, rather than a motivating cause.

I agree with a lot of what you write, Megan, such as the substance of this post. (Yes, things really are better than they were forty years ago, by just about any measure.) I just don't understand why you punctuate your posts with gratuitous anti-liberal insults.

Well I’ll jump in here. I watched “The Day After” while sitting nuclear alert with my B-52. (Have you hugged your SRAM today?) I figured that after the day I would trying to get my aircraft and crew back to the states from where –ever we landed (assuming we lived). All of us would have taken off and delivered all the weapons that we could. So I actually lived with the reality and new where the bombs would fall.

Of course we followed that movie with the traditional “Dr. Strangelove” and laughed our butts off!

Also the scariest part of he cold war that I was around for was watching the fighting around the Kremlin.(1991?) There was a possibility of a Russian Civil war with nukes. Not a pretty site.

Also, I have a relative who celebrated when the AF base in her city closed. (Austin). She said that it made her and her friends feel much safer since they were no longer a target. When I managed to stop my laughter long enough to get back in my chair, I explained to her that Austin, as the capital of one of the largest states in the union, would be getting multiple ICBMs because of it target value as a political leadership site. She was horrified, I still laugh to this day over that. But she also thought that military people believed Dr. Strangelove was a serious movie!

SteveB – the Senate voted 92-3 in favor of the war and appropriate more funds. Sounds like widespread bi-partisan support. All the major candidates say they will not be cutting and running. Sounds like wide-spread bi-partisan support. Get a grip, the world is more prosperous and free than in anytime in human history.

Lastly,
“In fact, I would bet that the activists who are changing the world the most aren't "overwhelmed" by the problems in the world. “

And they would be the US Marine Corp and US Army. Bringing freedom to the world since 1776. While the left supports totalitarianism and the stability of the gulags – see support for Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Saddam Hussain. And you wonder why we think the loony left as lost their way?

I'll add to the chorus of people who grew up terrified of imminent nuclear war. I grew up with nightmares about nuclear tipped ICBMs destroying my city. Having read about the close calls (that we know about), I don't think the fear was overblown.

As far as the effectiveness of activism goes, I think that others have made a good point that trying to save the whole world all at once is going to be very difficult, but saving a few people in your local community is probably a lot easier. There are plenty of organizations one can join or volunteer for. Writing checks to other organizations and writing letters to politicians helps, too. Most city governments have meetings where citizens can go and speak their mind. Representives to state and local government are accessible in various ways.

All of this requires some work and time commitment, though.

I think the Internet has made it seem like it's really easy to do lots of things from one's computer. While that is true to some extent, changing the world will still require getting up, walking away from the computer, and actually doing something.

In other words, these discussions are interesting and fun but probably not going to change anything...

EI

I ducked and covered as a child, and I doubt things were more frightening for me than they are for my son with terrorist attacks and school shootings. This has little to do with the reality of the threat, and a lot to do with the over-saturation of scary news that permeates our culture. I don't think childhood fears are a really meaningful thing to measure or talk about though. We might as well be talking about the monster under the bed.

I do want to challenge what you're saying about women's rights, at least in this culture. At best it's a mixed bag. Reproductive freedom is a marker of women's rights, and that has diminished since the seventies and eighties. Moreover, the Phyllis Schlafley "women's place is in the home" schtick was pretty much a joke when I was a young, and now it is a line accepted by many mainstream conservatives. There are pushes to make divorce laws harder. There are also many more girls growing up in conservative christian homes who are being told that their future involves only subjugation to man and childrearing. As MLK once said: when one of us is chained, none of us are free.

I'm old enough to have some perspective on this. Sure, it sometimes seems that the 'great ideas' aren't moving forward fast enough, but those of us over 40 have seen quite alot of movement as Megan points out. That is no reason to counsel patience however which, to me, translates as a shrug of the shoulders and a mumbled "oh, we'll get there eventually." All great ideas had great leaders behind them. Great leaders don't resign themselves to waiting it out.

Instead of writing a check, I'd suggest volunteering for a campaign, or spending your long weekend doing volunteer trail work in a national forest or park. Don't want to 'do' anything? Fine, but then just STFU. Believing you can change the world with your checkbook is a sort of cynicism the country can do without.

I think Ezra's spending too much time hanging out in the coffee bar and too little time thinking about how he might actually change the world.

How many of you remember watching The Day After on TV, and how scared and depressed it made you feel? I remember my sister starting crying when we watched it.

Oh puh-leez! The Day After was sheer overhyped, poorly acted, cliche-ridden crap. It was as bad as Plan 9 from Outer Space. Or Gigli. Or as bad as Showgirls would've been without all the nekkid chix. I actually wasted a couple hours watching the The Day After on television, having been drawn in by all the advance publicity, and realized afterwards that I would have been much more intrigued by watching paint dry.

Megan's in her late forties, early fifties?

No, much younger than that, early to middle 30's at most.

"And you wonder why we think the loony left as lost their way?

Posted by buffpilot | October 24, 2007 10:20 AM "


Excellent post!

I think it's probably likely that there was greater fear of nuclear war in the 50's and 80's than the sandwich decades in between. In the 50's, the Cold War was new; in the 60's, the focus was on Vietnam, and it might have seemed that rather than thermonuclear war, tensions between the superpowers might be dealt with through conventional proxy wars. The Republican presidential candidate who the left had slandered as the one most likely to start a nuclear war (Goldwater) lost. In the 70's, you had detente.

In the 80's, you had Reagan, the president the left had also claimed was likely to start another nuclear war. You also had the growing movement of scientists opposing nukes, the nuclear freeze movement, Carl Sagan writing about the horrors of nuclear winter in Parade Magazine, etc.

The Senate voted 92-3 in favor of the war and appropriate more funds.

And the American people are, by a similar margin, in favor of spending billions more of their money to continue the war?

No? Then I'd say there's a problem here. Our government, it seems, is not representing the people.

I could point to other issues as well, but the Iraq war is the most dramatic example of the yawning chasm between the desires of the American people and the policies of our elites in Washington (Democrat and Republican alike).

And that, I think, is what leads to depression and confusion in people like Ezra. We've all been told that, as citizens of a democracy, there are certain tools we can use to influence our government (elections, writing our representatives, protest, etc.) and yet none of these things actually seem to work. So what do we do? It's a good question, one all of us should consider.

Stephen Colbert pointed out that when the student got tasered at the Kerry speech in Florida, all the other students sat there and did nothing. Other than going home and posting the incident on YouTube. Nobody interfered, or even verbally challenged the cops. They just sat there passively.

From what I could tell many of them were cheering and applauding the police for removing the would-be hijacker who was there only to disrupt Senator Kerry’s presentation. As well they should.

SteveB,

This might help you understand: "End of a Movement". An excerpt:

"The People. United. Can in fact be defeated. Well not exactly, but this must be what America's anti-war movement is thinking as Congress and the president iron out the funding for the war with no danger of the Democrats attaching a withdrawal date to the bill. The Dems don't have the votes.

It's enough to deflate the spirits of our nation's most hardened pacifists. Take Medea Benjamin, the leader of Code Pink, an association of mainly senior citizen women who dress up and shout slogans at Congressional war hearings. In an interview in the current issue of Mother Jones, Ms. Benjamin said that she doubted that the troops would be withdrawn even within a year's time. "Well, I think it's kind of silly to talk about it because it's just not going to happen," she said."

[...]

"The peaceniks need only blame themselves for their failures. They are asking Americans to believe not that the war was a blunder, so much that the war was a sin; that the decapitators and car bombers of innocents are a resistance; that the army seeking to prevent ethnic cleansing today is in fact responsible for it."

Fred - right on the money:

"The peaceniks need only blame themselves for their failures. They are asking Americans to believe not that the war was a blunder, so much that the war was a sin; that the decapitators and car bombers of innocents are a resistance; that the army seeking to prevent ethnic cleansing today is in fact responsible for it."

If we played all the beheadings of US troops, aid workers and journalist on TV as much as we had Abu Gharib the peace movement would be laughed at. How about the buried story were AQ slaughtered an entire village? How about who is responsible for driving car-bombs into groups of their own children??? Lets show how the terrorist handle prisoners - all by the Geneva conventions - Not. They torture to death any they capture. And the US military is to blame?
Yet Code Pink supports these guys? Why? Look who they stand with and support.

And you wonder why we think the looney left as lost its way?

Yes, Will Allen, it was. There are a thousand times as many people with a visceral hatred and a desire for vengeance against America today as there were in September of 2001. And the greatest contrast is that for many of those who desire vengeance against America today, who are moved to rage by images of, say, toddlers killed by American bombs in Iraq, the desire for vengeance is as well grounded as a desire for vengeance can be.

Look, we can't refight our argument about whether the war was/is a good idea in this thread. I mean we can, but it's pointless. The substantive point is simply that polls have very consistently shown that a majority of Americans want to pull out of Iraq and think the war was "not worth it", ever since some time in 2005. The Republicans lost both houses of congress in 2006 entirely over this issue. And yet there is no movement towards pulling out of Iraq, because for various complicated reasons the political system is locked down. That's what creates a sense of powerlessness.

It was the sense of powerlessness to stop the war, despite widespread public opposition, that destroyed the Democratic Party in 1967-72. It drove the anti-war left to a level of disgust with its own country which was ultimately politically poisonous. In fact, the country merited that disgust. Unfortunately, it's not politically wise to say so, because people don't like being told that they have slaughtered innocents for no good reason but their own vanity, particularly when it's true.

brooksfoe, there also seems to be a thousand times more hatred for bin Laden today than there was in September of 2001.

I don't think that it was the plan, but putting innocent Muslims in the crossfire has created some blowback for the Islamists as well.

SG: and this redounds to the credit of America how? People HATE us. I'm out here in Vietnam, where people turned pro-American as part of the reconciliation in the late '90s. They're still in love with Bill Clinton. They despise Bush. And Vietnam is still one of the more pro-American countries in the region; try talking to people from Indonesia or Malaysia, or China. I don't even want to think about Pakistan.

In counterinsurgency, the problem is to fight an enemy that swims among the people like a fish in water. The key is to separate the fish from the water by turning the people against the enemy. We've turned the "people" -- all the Muslims in the world -- against us. Now try finding the enemy. Any wonder Osama is still out there?

brooksfoe,

There are a thousand times as many people with a visceral hatred and a desire for vengeance against America today as there were in September of 2001.

This is what's called "The product of brooksfoe's fevered imagination presented as fact."

I think there's enough evidence to support the view that America's prestige and popularity in the world have declined significantly over the past seven years. There isn't remotely enough evidence to supported your absurdly hyperbolic claim. Get a grip.

brooksfoe, according to soldiers now serving in Iraq, many Muslims are quite happy with our soldiers and like having them around. Iraqi and coalition soldiers live and fight together and have developed a mutual respect. Many in Iraq are turning against Al Qaeda and other terrorists and actively helping our soldiers find the terrorists.

While I would prefer that citizens of foreign countries see the US as a beacon of freedom and salvation to whom they should give thanks daily, I do not want our foreign policy to be shaped by polls of foreigners. The attitudes of foreigners towards the US should be a concern, but not the motivating factor behind our foreign policy.

EI

Brooksfoe's comparison of public feeling now about the Iraq War to public feeling in the late 1960s/early 1970s about the Vietnam War is also ludicrous. There was hardly an American family that wasn't affected in some way by Vietnam. That war killed 58,000 Americans at a time when the U.S. population was only two-thirds its present size. It was a significant burden on the national economy. It killed millions of Vietnamese and Cambodian civilians. In contrast, the Iraq War barely has any impact on the lives of most ordinary Americans. Its effect on the economy is insignificant, there's no draft, and although the deaths of American servicemen are obviously tragic, they are only a small fraction of the losses caused in Vietnam. Yes, public opinion is now against the war. But it isn't remotely like the magnitude and intensity of the opposition to Vietnam.

Brooksfoe,

Read this, it will cheer you up: "Failing Upward: Relax, America will survive George W. Bush". It's long, and I don't agree with the more gratuitous attacks on Bush (which I'm sure you'll enjoy), but Mead makes some good historical points. Among them:

U.S. foreign policy isn't successful just because our process reflects the varied interests and priorities of our diverse and dynamic society. We also succeed because our core strategic interests--liberal society, global economic growth, geopolitical stability--fit well with the interests and aspirations of other people around the world. They remain popular even when U.S. policy is widely disliked; when we fail to achieve our goals, others often do the work for us.

[...]

Even in Iraq itself, the United States has made significant alliances with Sunni Arab tribal leaders, who played an important role in both the nationalist and the jihadist resistance to coalition forces after Saddam's fall. Those alliances are the basis for the recent U.S. military successes in Iraq, and Sunni participation in the Iraqi political process is enhancing the prospects for the kind of compromise, however ugly, that could keep Iraq from falling into Iran's orbit while enhancing stability as U.S. forces gradually withdraw.

[...]

And, in support of SG's point about Al Qaeda's own blowback in the Muslim World:

There is more good news. The same polls that demonstrate the widespread unpopularity of the United States show a major shift in Muslim opinion away from terrorism and the ideas of Al Qaeda. Terrorism in Iraq--where the victims are almost always Arab Muslims, and many are women and children--may have made the horror and inhumanity of such attacks apparent to mass audiences throughout the Arab world. In seven of eight Muslim countries surveyed in one study, the proportion of the population that considers suicide bombing a legitimate tactic has fallen. In 2002, 33 percent of Pakistanis told pollsters that suicide bombing was often or sometimes justified; by 2007, only 9 percent held that point of view. Seven of seven Muslim countries surveyed showed declines in the proportion of the population that had confidence in Osama bin Laden.

EI, you and I read accounts by different soldiers. Polls consistently show that a significant majority of Iraqis support violence against American troops. I'm not surprised that some Iraqis get along with our soldiers, and I should be more specific in what I mean: there is not a Muslim country in the world anymore where a majority of the population has a positive view of the United States. In September 2001, Indonesians, Turks, and Malaysians all viewed the United States favorably. Now, by huge margins, none do. Even in Pakistan, in September 2001 the US had reasonable favorability ratings. Those days are long gone. Obviously US troops can work with their counterparts, and in some neighborhoods people may view them favorably (though I am very skeptical as to whether this is a repeat of the Vietnam-era phenomenon, in which Marines in CAP platoons rooming with Vietnamese families with whom they became close would find out after the war that their "aunties" had backed the VC all along). But in most of Iraq and in the Muslim world at large, the US is despised now. And when the next big attack comes, nobody will be asking, "why do they hate us"? We gave them a reason.

"And when the next big attack comes, nobody will be asking, "why do they hate us"? We gave them a reason."

Wasn't one of the "reasons" bandied about our support for brutal Arab dictators who oppress their people? Now you say we will be hated more for deposing one of these brutal dictators and giving his people a chance to chose their own leaders and their build a better future? Seems like a contradiction.

I'm out here in Vietnam, where people turned pro-American as part of the reconciliation in the late '90s. They're still in love with Bill Clinton. They despise Bush.

I am very skeptical as to whether this is a repeat of the Vietnam-era phenomenon, in which Marines in CAP platoons rooming with Vietnamese families with whom they became close would find out after the war that their "aunties" had backed the VC all along

So if it turns out that your "aunties" are actually Bush supporters...

By the way, I wonder how many people who voted Democratic in 1974 thought they were voting for bringing our boys home.

Fred:
"The peaceniks need only blame themselves for their failures. They are asking Americans to believe not that the war was a blunder, so much that the war was a sin; that the decapitators and car bombers of innocents are a resistance; that the army seeking to prevent ethnic cleansing today is in fact responsible for it."

I'm not asking anyone to believe anything, I'm just noting what most Americans do believe: that the war was a mistake, it's not making us safer, and that we should be implementing a timetable for withdrawing troops. Yes, there are still some disagreements among the general populace about what that timetable should be, but the "debate" we see in Congress is not whether we should leave in six months or 18 months, it's whether we should leave at all. And what percentage of Americans share the view of the three leading Democratic Presidential candidates that it would be "irresponsible" to withdraw all troops by 2013?

These are all signs of a failed, or failing democracy. You can argue all you want that the war is just and should be continued; but most Americans no longer agree with you. Who should our government listen to: you, the "enlightened minoirty" who are certain we're making progress, or the increasing (and increasingly angry) majority who want us to get out?

brooksfoe, If the only issue that matters is who they hate, then the fact that they hate bin Laden more is a good thing, no? If their hatred is the salient point, then we're doing something right.

And by your own assessment, we got 9/11 (and the first WTC bombing and the USS Cole and the Khobar Towers the African Embassy bombings) when we were popular. What good did that alleged popularity do us?

I'd rather be loved than hated, but unless you're calling for a mass conversion to Islam, I don't think that either is ours to choose. Right now we're forcing the average Mohammed to live with the fruits of jihad and it turns out he doesn't like it. Since our end goal has to be the discrediting of jihad, that has to be to our benefit.

Golly, Brooksfoe, where do you buy one of those finely calibrated visceral hatred-o-meters? Amazon?

Good gravy, the very fact that you think it is important that non-Americans have hatred for an American President who is only going to be in office for 14 more months, compared to a previous President, demonstrates that your perspective is entirely out of whack. Presidents come and Presidents go. So what?

Here is the long term reality. Until the population of the Persian Gulf governs itself, includiung it's oil reserves, and then decides to trade peacefully and profitably with the rest of the world, the U.S. is going to be embroiled in the conflicts within the Arab and wider Muslim world, and there will thus be more than enough highly motivated, well funded, people with a desire to inflict mass casualties in New York to eventually make it happen. Everything else is window dressing. Thus, nearly anything which makes the day come closer when that population, or substantial part of that population, achieves self government is likely to be preferred. True, if that population achieves self government, they may choose hostilities with the U.S.. It is better to know this sooner rather than later. In any case, there's is also a good chance that a self governing people will decide that it is a lot more pleasant to trade with the U.S. than it is to engage in hostilities with the U.S.

I grew up with the very real fear that one day, without much warning, I would simply vanish in a radioactive cloud.

I dunno. I don't think Ms. McArdle is older than I (44) and I sure don't recall this being my daily reality as a kid in the 70s and 80s. Sure, every now and then there'd be some furrowed-brow grown-up solemnly declaiming about the danger of Noooclear War!!!, usually on the nightly news, with stock footage of B-52s taking off in the background, or Pershings being elevated into launch position.

But as a kid my time horizons were pretty small. From June to Christmas was just about forever, for example. On that time scale nothing ever seemed to change on the noooclear war front. It was always maybe gonna happen any moment now who knows eek eek eek. So I concluded, rationally enough, that while the fear of nuclear war was apparently omnipresent (for adults), the actual fact of it was pretty remote. It hadn't happened in forever (on a kid's timescale), nothing ever changed to make it seem more or less likely, so it probably wouldn't happen any time soon. Psychological problem solved, time to go out and play catch, ride the bike, go swimming, whatever.

Maybe Megan was one of them pasty-faced nerdy types who sat indoors all the time and read Time cover to cover on how Ronnie Raygun was going to lead us into Armageddon? Most of us kids had more fun things to do than fret about nukes.

Yes, yes, Boomer Babies, we know the Vietnam War sucked. But it already happened, and your generation should have learned your lesson from it and kept the equally unnecessary and far more geopolitically self-destructive Iraq War from starting.

Ezra's point is valid. The mainstream majority of America, in poll after poll, is against this war and recognizes it as a mistake. Please, spare us the derisive broadbrushing of war protesters as "Village people" who scare the muggles. MILLIONS of Americans have marched against this war. We had a historic political realignment last year almost wholly about this issue, but nothing has actually changed. For the legions of politically active Americans who have done everything imaginable to stop this, yes, it's monumentally frustrating, and fair for people to start to wonder if in fact there is anything citizen activism and involvement can ever really do.

SteveB,

These are all signs of a failed, or failing democracy. You can argue all you want that the war is just and should be continued; but most Americans no longer agree with you. Who should our government listen to: you, the "enlightened minoirty" who are certain we're making progress, or the increasing (and increasingly angry) majority who want us to get out?

Majority public opinion only started to favor withdrawal around mid-2005. Prior to that, a majority of Americans opposed withdrawal. Were you saying to proponents of withdrawal prior to 2005 that the government should listen to the majority instead? Or do you make your "the government should do what the majority wants" argument only at times and for policies on which you happen to share that majority opinion?

"I'm pretty sympathetic to Ezra's discontent."

Please. Anyone with the nominal intelligence necessary to turn a Microsoft Word document into an animated .gif can change the world.

Michael Yon is making a difference. Does he do it by chanting slogans and waving a sign around? Of course not. He's better than that and so is his audience. He went to Iraq, filed reports that were compelling and credible, and brought us news we can trust. That his efforts are an overall boon to the pro-war side isn't at issue here; that he seems to have no problem making a difference is.

Ezra is the victim of nothing more than rising standards, he just lacks the intellectual integrity to see it so he rationalizes instead. To put it into the "consumerist" frame he so despises, he's 1980's GM complaining about Toyota instead of improving and adapting to modernity.

What the Internet Age has done is RAISE THE BAR. Nobody cares if you wave a sign and protest because that's not good enough anymore. I think on some level Ezra knows he doesn't measure up and is hiding his feelings of inferiority by pining for the "Good Ol' Days".

Read "An Army of Davids" and tell me people can't make a difference.

Sheesh, navigating foreign relations is not like running for Class President; being well liked is not paramount. What is important is that entities with the ability to influence events see that it is in their enlightened self interest to pursue goals which also are in your enlightened self interest. With regard to the Persian Gulf, this cannot happen as long as 1)the rest of the economically developed and developing world, with the U.S. the largest entity, has an absolute demand for the oil beneath the Persian Gulf 2)The population of the Persian Gulf does not govern those oil reserves, and thus cannot decide of it's own free will to trade with the rest of the world, for it's own benefit. Anything short of that means that the U.S. will be in conflict with the population of the Persian Gulf and wider muslim world.

Now you say we will be hated more for deposing one of these brutal dictators and giving his people a chance to chose their own leaders and their build a better future? Seems like a contradiction.