Yglesias and I discuss the terrifying prospects of a Giuliani presidency, the unexciting prospect of a Hilary candidacy, and the weird absence of Jews in shows about rich people. It occurred to me as I was watching this that the anasemitic character of Gossip Girl has its echo in Beverly Hills 90210, where IIRC only one character, who started out minor, is Jewish . . . not exactly an accurate representation of an area dominated by the entertainment industry.
It also occurred to me that there is a relatively benign explanation: media executives are leery of portraying rich New York day schools, or the entertainment industry, as being chock full of Jewish people for fear of encouraging the stereotype that Jews control all the media and the money in this country. Though I'm not sure the opposite pretense is actually any less disturbing.
The OC (kind of the day school set of CA) featured a Jewish family pretty prominently, and it was on Fox. And Seinfeld (if that counts) never shied away from the Judaism, of course.
If it's Los Angeles entertainment industry Jews you're looking for, Ari Gold springs to mind. And then there's Curb Your Entusiasm (if that counts).
Also, wasn't Kevin's best friend on the Wonder Years Jewish?
If you're concerned about demographic accuracy on 90210, the most glaring error is that the very large Iranian minority at Beverly Hills High wasn't reflected in the slightest.
And Seinfeld (if that counts) never shied away from the Judaism, of course.
On the contrary, I was about to invoke Seinfeld to support the view that the Jews who run the entertainment industry are convinced that Americans won't watch shows about Jews. Seinfeld was conceived as a show about four Jews and the network executives made them change the characters for that reason. Changing Jerry's name was out, obviously, but IIRC there was nothing explicitly said about his being Jewish until well after the show became a powerhouse.
If I'm not mistaken, Gossip Girl is set on the Upper West Side, which is not quite as Jewish as its counterpart on the other side of Central Park.
If I'm not mistaken, Gossip Girl is set on the Upper West Side
Whoops! Upper EAST Side.
JSinger,
From "The Stakeout", the first Seinfeld episode after the pilot:
Jerry: Oh, I'm sorry. Elaine, this is my cousin Artie Levine.
% As in Liveen.
Artie: Le*vine*.
% As in Levyne. He leaves with Carol.
Jerry: Yeah, "Le*vine*". And I'm Jerry Cougar Mellencamp... Anyway, I
Both David Silver and Andrea Zuckerman were identified as Jewish characters and IIRC both were original cast members (at least Zuckerman was).
What’s an “anasemitic character”?
They could have gone with the Whit Stillman approach and set the show in the early '80's. Speaking of the WASP Woody Allen, has he retired or something?
A simpler explanation: very few Americans outside of the New York area are Jewish, so there's those characters don't have much appeal. Is any other ethnic group that comprises less that 3% of the total population better represented on TV?
At one point in this conversation you remark something to the effect that actual rich people don't act like the rich people in Gossip Girl, in that the actual rich tend to be a bit more modest about their money. Maybe, you remark, the TV type rich are in the suburbs.
I remember having similar feelings about the portrayal of the rich on TV -- I am solidly middle class, yet I've never been confronted with "look at me I'm rich and you're not" type snobbery, even though I've known plenty of people with way more money than I. I thought it didn't exist either.
Then I saw "My Sweet 16" on MTV. I found your suburbs. It's nauseating.
Good point, I’d wager that there are far more Jewish characters on television now than Asian, Indian, Persian, or Arab characters combined.
One of the oddities of the Jewish experience is that their influence far exceeds their numbers.
At one point not too long ago, something like 80% of the film studios were all under Jewish leadership: Bronfman, Levin, Weinstein, etc. And one need not mention Wall Street.
The problem, however, is not the fact of Jewish success, but that people make an issue of it. When a group of people can pick their interests, work hard at them, and then succeed, it should be applauded. Nothing to apologize for.
I think some Jewish people prefer to avoid the types of conversations that might occur when they are examined too closely.
Then again, I often wonder what makes a Jewish person Jewish. Is it the religion? Ethnic purity? Are they different from other semetic peoples? And how will Israel go forward without ultimately submitting to an ethnic diversity that cause the nation to lose its central reason for being?
I would suspect that complexity goes with the territory.
I should have added:
Josh and Toby on the West Wing were both Jewish, and frequently (from, I think, the fourth season on) talked about how it's a testament to this country that people of their faith could hold positions of such influence in the government.
So maybe there isn't a monolithic desire in the entertainment industry to not present Jews in positions of influence or affluence?
The anti-Semitism issue got thrown like a hand grenade at the political right on the pilot episode of TWW. I'd go so far as to say that "The West Wing" was very pro-Jew, whatever that means.
But don't you think that reflects the very weird politics of Aaron Sorkin more than Hollywood as a whole?
What we should be concerned about is that the Guiliani presidency will probably come about because no one I know will vote for Clinton (I guess none of us are ever polled) or Guiliani, but being that most are Democrats I think a lot of people are going to sit home and watch their country turned into something that it was never supposed to be.
And don't think we could not have another Hitler or Stalin here. Our Congress and Courts have shown a great ability to hide in tough times so with a willful president as Guiliani, we could be well on the road to a president unrestricted by others, sometimes called a dictatorship.
Guiliani is more Stalin-like. He'll surround himself with able and heartless assistants, as Stalin did during the early '30s, and silence the few feeble voices that speak out in dissent. First to go will be the internet.
Which brings me to Mukasey. Is he ever slick? He believes that torture is wrong and tells how it makes us look as bad as the Nazis. But, and a big but it is, he also tells us as President Bush tells us, that we don't torture. Everyone thinks he is against torture; the truth is only, he and the person who nominated him, believe that no matter what Americans do to a prisoner it isn't torture because Americans don't torture.
Oh, and he seems to believe the president has the power to arrest an American citizen on American soil and hold him or her forever without charges or trial.
Wow, give Guiliani those powers and see what happens.
I'm sure it does have a lot to do with Aaron Sorkin and the world he created (although IIRC he wasn't there for the fifth and sixth seasons where a lot of the same themes--and the arab-israeli issue--were explored).
But the West Wing was NBC's flagship show for a long time. If "media executives are leery of portraying rich New York day schools, or the entertainment industry, as being chock full of Jewish people for fear of encouraging the stereotype that Jews control all the media and the money in this country," you would think they would also be leery of Josh and Toby advising the President. My guess is that they're just leery of premises that aren't commercially viable, and someone came to the conclusion that Gossip Girls--not being the West Wing--works better as a WASPy show.
Southpaw, I think NBC execs would have been really uncomfortable with TWW if President Bartlett had to deal with a cabal of Jewish Wall Street CEOs or a sinister group of pro-Israeli types at DOD. I think those caricatures are a lot closer to negative Jewish stereotypes (like those Megan is thinking about) than Josh and Toby, who were the Prez's good guys.
You could even argue that scene in the pilot was the inoculation against the leeriness we're talking about. ('cause it was bad Mary Marsh who was uncomfortable with Josh and Toby)
Eh, I think we're just getting into splitting hairs territory, but I love thinking about that show (as much as I loved to yell at the TV or roll my eyes.)
The creator of "Gossip Girl", Josh Schwartz, came to fame with his series "The OC". He has stated that he made characters in "The OC" Jewish precisely to play against the stereotype of Orange County as the WASP area of Southern California.
He is, of course, also limited by the source material of the original "Gossip Girl" novels.
Based on this, I don't think the current lack of Jewish characters on "Gossip Girl" should be used an an example of Hollywood nefariously underrepresenting a minority.
I wouldn't vote for Hillary or Guiliani but I don't think th U.S. is done for if either is elected. We just don't put up with extremists and Congress knows they'd be on notice if anymore of the constitution were whittled away.
I'm more concerned that we don't seem to have ANY leaders in either party willing to build a candidacy on a set of principles that the country could rally around.
Perhaps I'm too much of an idealist, but it would be nice to WANT to listen to what our President had to say.
My European friends think we're in for a huge fall, and only then will we regain values making us worthy of emulation again. I hope they are wrong.
the stereotype of Orange County as the WASP area of Southern California
I was in Orange County a few years ago and it sure didn't seem like a WASP area to me.
Unless most WASPs have brown skin and speak Spanish.
Orange County WASPs fled California after the Rodney King riots, bidding up home prices and shifting politics to the right in cities across the west.
Ralph Lauren, who is not a WASP, made a lot of money selling middle America on the image of WASP Upper Class. There seems to be no limit to the appetite for this.
Dunno what part of Orange County counts as Orange County, but Newport Beach sure seems pretty WASPy.
American Baptist?!?!? Whoa, I always figured Megan for a lapsed Catholic. I didn't know anyone who was an American Baptist.
"it's a testament to this country that people of their faith could hold positions of such influence in the government": unlike, say, France, where Jews are restricted to being Prime Minister or President?
Klug, I think you've basically got it right. I suppose it's true that you won't see a lot of stereotypically unsympathetic Jewish characters on mainstream television. But I don't really have a problem with that.
The crucial thing here, I think, is the availability of the OC, which was made by the same guy, for people who want to see a (screwball) treatment of the Jewish experience in an affluent high-school environment.
________
Huh? Go watch the West Wing. Their appreciation for the United States has really got very little to do with France. OK, Bartlet does call the French "pauncy hairdressers" at one point, but I don't think that was reflective of real animus.
I was about to invoke Seinfeld to support the view that the Jews who run the entertainment industry are convinced that Americans won't watch shows about Jews. Seinfeld was conceived as a show about four Jews and the network executives made them change the characters for that reason.
Kramer's surname wasn't changed to something less Jewish.
Well, you're Dad and my Dad should got to a Hillary Rally together, and my Dad is a perfect example of someone who does NOT like Obama. He thinks Obama doesn't have enough experience.
I wonder if Hillary is going to corner the market on the 55+ male who tends towards socially liberal ideals but somewhat fiscally conservitive ones?
Yeah, I didn't see any Jewish or Indian doctors on Gray's Anatomy. TV may just not match real life, shocker.
King of Stupid TV trivia here: the neuro doc "upstairs" on Grey's Anatomy is Indian. Cristina Yang is Jewish, or at least her stepdad is.
Finn (6;40pm),
"Then again, I often wonder what makes a Jewish person Jewish. Is it the religion? Ethnic purity? Are they different from other semetic peoples? And how will Israel go forward without ultimately submitting to an ethnic diversity that cause the nation to lose its central reason for being?"
There is very little ethnic purity among Jews. Jews tend to look like those people in the countries where their ancestors grew up, including India, Yemen, Turkey, North Africa, Eastern Europe, Western Europe, Italy, Greece and Ethiopia. In fact, amongst my friends there is a joke: "where did all these Jews get blue eyes?" "Cossacks."
Israel is a remarkably diverse country. About 55-60% of the jews are of middle eastern descent, which includes Moroccan Jews, Yemenites, Iraqis, Persians, and Uzbekis. The city with the largest population of Iraqi's outside of Iraq is the Tel-Aviv suburb of Ra'anana.
Which probably means that the roots of jewish success are more cultural. In all of these communities, as separate from each other as they were, there were similar values of education, literacy and study. That the populations remained rather small throughout history, probably in the face of always being a second class citizen to some degree or another, may also have to do with it.
What's the point of even having a Jewish character on Gossip Girl?
The producers/writers (no doubt Jewish themsleves) will almost certainly make the character a horrible geek/nerd and cast the ugliest actor they can find. That's what they usually do, since they always follow the old Woody Allen/Ben Stiller stereotype. So what's the point?