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The real problem

23 Nov 2007 12:07 pm

For those of you who haven't noticed, my colleague Clive Crook has joined us in the blogging world. I've been lucky enough to have Clive as a colleague in both places I've worked as a journalist. For those who haven't been fortunate enough to meet him face to face, the blog is a decent proxy for the real thing.

In this post on Paul Krugman and Social Security, Clive, as usual, targets with laser accuracy the real problem with the Social Security system: not that it is bankrupt, but that it encourages people to make extremely bad decisions about providing for their future.

It starts with childbearing: social security systems seem to exert downward pressure on birthrates, in effect undermining their own actuarial base. Social security socializes the benefits of childbearing in providing for retirement, but no one has yet figured out how to socialize the main cost, which is turning your life choices over to a screaming pre-verbal dictator. People are thus tempted to free ride on the childbearing of others, and the more generous benefits are, the more they seem to free ride. This is one reason that Social Security, which used to have more than 30 workers for each retiree, now has only three, headed towards two.

Social Security also encourages people to leave the workforce earlier than they otherwise would. People are healthier than ever at 65, but while in 1950, almost half of all men over the age of 65 worked, that number is now less than 20%. This appears to be highly correlated with the spread of defined benefit pensions such as social security, which offer no advantage to delaying retirement. Indeed, Social Security perversely penalizes anyone who takes early benefit but continues to work, docking a third of their earnings.

Finally, Social Security discourages private savings. This is terrible for two reasons. If future fiscal problems force the government to reduce benefits, the people who didn't save enough because they relied on those promises will be made much worse off than they would otherwise have been.

The other problem is that Social Security is not a productive investment. Privately saved money is mostly lent to corporations that mostly use the money to do things that make the economy more productive, such as R&D and capital equipment upgrades. Social security "contributions" are lent to the government, where they are mostly spent on things that could not be remotely described as improving our economy's productive capacity, such as farm subsidies.

This transaction would actually be neutral (except for deadweight loss on the "contributions") if Congress used the Social Security money to reduce other debt; in effect, they would be doing our national saving for us. But in practice, though it is difficult to tease out cause and effect, the best evidence is that Congress simply spends the extra money as if it were tax revenue. Social security thus reduces national savings.

The demographic transition we are currently undergoing to an older society means that we need policies to increase the workforce and productivity as much as possible. What we have, in Social Security, is a program which actively works against these aims.

Comments (69)

The British equivalent is called the Old Age Pension. You now get a reward if you delay drawing it for up to five years. You can take your reward as an increased pension in future, or as a lump sum. A friend is using this as a way of reducing his tax liabilities - he'll work on, and draw the pension when he stops working and thus stops being a Higher Rate taxpayer.

"What we have, in Social Security, is a program which actively works against these aims."

What do you think the "Old Right", aka 'paleo-conservatives', were saying at the time this(these) program(s) was/were suggested?

And, why do you sound so shocked?

"Social security "contributions" are lent to the government, where they are mostly spent on things that could not be remotely described as improving our economy's productive capacity, such as farm subsidies."
Megan,

Farm subsidies are a tiny portion of the budget. The military, payouts to current Social Security recipients, debt service/payments, Medicare, and Medicaid dominate by far. Why select a tiny and unpopular (among elites) example rather than the real pillars of spending?

I would argue that a critical turning point in the perception of the Social Security (dis)Trust Fund was the creation of the Unified Federal Budget (Thank you, LBJ and the "guns & butter" economy.)

Interestingly, the same thing is happening now, as "educational lottery" funds flow into state general revenues, with little or no net increase in education funding; and, tobacco taxes and tobacco settlement funds do likewise.

P. T. Barnum said it best: "There's a sucker born every minute."

Does it make sense to say that Social Security contributions "are lent to the government"? "Lent" by whom?--by the government itself. Can you lend to yourself? It's this kind of description that leads gullible people to believe that the Social Security system is sitting on a $2 trillion "trust fund," which is in fact imaginary. The Social security contributions that were purportedly lent to the government were in fact spent on things other than Social Security.

Alan Gunn,

Does it make sense to refer to them as "contributions"?

P. T. Barnum said it best: "There's a sucker born every minute."

Ed Reid: your comment seems to express approval of dedicated funding forms of taxation. But there's an overwhelming economic case against dedicated taxation. For one thing, taxes ought to be as neutral and as non-distortionary as possible. Dedicated taxes usually don't pass muster in this area. For another, a strict adherence to dedicated taxation can lead to more spending than necessary: if a dedicated tax on cigarettes generates, say, $1 billion, and the receipts are supposed to be dedicated for anti-tobacco education, we're hardly better off as a society spending the whole billion when only $600 million would suffice. Count me among those who would prefer plowing the extra $400 million into healthcare or education or infrastructure, rather than wasting it on additional, unnecessarily anti-cigarette commercials.

Obviously we could just adjust the tax downwards, but taking this route requires constant monitoring and adjustment of tax rates; it doesn't strike me as a very efficient process. I think we're better off just looking at all public sector revenue -- regardless of the taxation source -- as being sent to one big pot, and then spending the money as wisely as possible.

It's this kind of description that leads gullible people to believe that the Social Security system is sitting on a $2 trillion "trust fund," which is in fact imaginary.

Alan Gunn: I think I'm about as ungullible as you can get when it comes to Social Security wonkery, and I don't think the trust fund is imaginary at all. It's a creature of the law, of Congress. It's possible that the United States government could decide to renege on its promise to fund the Social Security checks of retirees. But this would still be possible even if the government had socked away all that money in Google shares and gold bouillon. The fact is, it is extraordinarily unlikely that sufficient votes will ever materialize to substantively reduce Social Security benefits. The program's growth is only likely to require an extra couple of points or so of GDP by mid-century; surely the political cost of providing for this modest increase will be substantially less than taking trillions of dollars away from people who vote in huge numbers.

Jasper,

I approve of doing what you say you are going to do. I do not approve of "selling" "dedicated funding forms of taxation", then "un-dedicating" the proceeds. That applies to tobacco taxes, "education" lotteries, highway "trust funds", SS "trust funds", Medicare "trust funds", etc.

There ain't much left of the "public trust" at this point.

I am very much in favor of returning the federal government to performing the functions enumerated for it in the US Constitution; and, administering a very simple system to raise the taxes necessary to support the performance of those functions.

Jasper, the point about the "imaginary" trust fund is not that Congress won't pay benefits, it's that there are no assets of any real value in the fund. SS benefits will be paid out of current taxes, as would be the case if there were no "trust fund" at all. If the money was in Google shares or bullion, there would be an independent, non-tax asset to make the payments with.

...SS benefits will be paid out of current taxes, as would be the case if there were no "trust fund" at all...

Um, yeah, okay, but what "point" exactly are y'all trying to make? Do you honestly think there are large numbers of people out there who think the government doesn't need to levy taxes to pay its bills, or that it won't require more taxes to pay for Social Security in 2030 than it does now? I think the main point about the use of the term "trust fund" is that it underscores the sacrosanctity of funding intergenerational social insurance. It makes that which is already politically very difficult (reneging on promises to old people) even more so.

It's worth point out that another impediment to private saving is rock-bottom interest rates like we've had for the better part of a decade. I know it's complicated, and I don't pretend to understand the whole issue, but it seems to me that you're just asking people to buy on credit and not save when interests rates are so low.

"It starts with childbearing: social security systems seem to exert downward pressure on birthrates, in effect undermining their own actuarial base. "

I find it hard to believe that those papers you site are convincing (I just read the available abstracts; the papers appear to cost money). The use of "seem" in the above quote betrays your own hint of skepticism. I'd be very curious to know how they disentangle repeals of laws forbidding speech about birth control from the creation of social security, which were nearly simultaneous in the US.

There is also the phenomenon that Catholics, those who call themselves Catholics and those who were born Catholic no longer pay heed to the Pope's stance on birth control in those countries with Social Security systems. I suppose you could blame social security for that, but I don't buy it.


"Social Security also encourages people to leave the workforce earlier than they otherwise would. People are healthier than ever at 65, but while in 1950, almost half of all men over the age of 65 worked, that number is now less than 20%. This appears to be highly correlated with the spread of defined benefit pensions such as social security, which offer no advantage to delaying retirement."

That stat is exaggerated. Many 65+ men who would have been retired were instead dead in the 1950s.

People are wealthier now. Even without social security, some would retire earlier.

More women are working. Men, who in past generations would have worked themselves to death despite illness are now refraining from doing so because their wives have good paying jobs that come with healthcare.

You can argue that Social Security is bad because of changing demographics, but I'm not buying claims that it significantly alters those demographics.

You've touched upon one of the stranger demographic/economic situations in American life: people are living longer than ever before, are remaining healthy longer than ever before, the share of jobs that are physically demanding is ever-shrinking, yet the retirement age is sinking like the Titanic. Why?

"Finally, Social Security discourages private savings. This is terrible for two reasons. If future fiscal problems force the government to reduce benefits, the people who didn't save enough because they relied on those promises will be made much worse off than they would otherwise have been."

Under what circumstances is the US federal government going to face a budget crisis, but the private investments of the bulk of its citizens will be just fine? In the parallel universes where one US has a government defaulting on Social Security promises, the other has a US with a crashing stock market, and the FDIC failing to live up to its obligations to insure failing banks.

Freddie,

Yet another disincentive to saving is the ongoing taxation of dividends and interest. This is followed, in the case of stock savings, by capital gains taxation on sale. Finally, for the really aggressive savers, it is ultimately followed by the "death tax".

It might be possible to construct a scenario less supportive of personal savings, but I am at a loss to guess what it might be.

Jasper, any time SS comes up around here, somebody says we don't need to worry about a thing because the SS trust fund doesn't run out until 2046 or whenever. Among people who don't spend their days off arguing about such things, the number who think that the words "trust fund" means, you know, "trust fund," as opposed to "device to underscore sacrosanctity" is probably pretty high.

The Trust Fund is no trust.

Here's how it works.

We pay money in now, in the form of FICA contributions, for Social Security. This money is spent on bridges in Alaska, rainforest museums, Trent Lott's multi-million dollar house, and gas for Nancy Pelosi's private jet trips.

In return, the government promises to give us money in the future. Where will the money come from? Why us, of course, which means we're going to pay for it twice.

We give the government money now. In return, the government will gives us money in the future by taking money from us in the future.

I'd love to run a scheme like this. You give me 15% of your income, and I'll spend it on hookers and blow. When you retire, I'll give you $2000 a month in retirement benefits, and a bill for $2200 a month to cover my expenses.

Even Ken Lay wouldn't have the audacity to do this. If the government was held to the same financial laws that corporations are held to, every single legislator would be in Federal PMITA prison.

These correlations you've posted in this argument against social security seem ... lacking.

1)Are you seriously trying to argue that the very existence of social security has reduced American birth rates? Isn't that nutso thinking? I mean short skirts and stock maket booms are correlated as well, it doesn't mean that the mini skirt wearing vixens caused equities to rise. Maybe other factors are more important? Like how much income families perceive is required per child? Plus the development of effective birth control?

2)Are you seriously trying to argue that SS is a significant cause of earlier retirement? Off the top of my head I would guess that the wealth effect, the fact that Americans have a much higher standard of living today then they did in the 50s, would account for almost all of the earlier age of retirement. This would make your argument especially perverse, in that, it is those americans who must work until or over 65 years of age who depend on the SS program you encourage policy makers to scrap.

3)National Savings reduction. But is this true? How much would national savings be increased if SS was abolished? infintesamile? Actually, given Americans near negative savings rate your argument might be completely false, you could lower national savings because any extra cash would go to consumption only.

4)"non productive" investment. Well this is the insurance cost of having an investment that is risk free. (except for political risk from republicans) The whole idea is to have a pool of savings that are outside of the market, whether it goes up or down, this part of the picture is fixed and determined. If life works out great for you, hey you can have all the private savings and investments you want, go for it, it's a free country.

SS is a program to take some of the brutality out of life as we know it. I don't know why conservatives can't understand this and accept it. I mean SS is not really a liberal idea, it was started by Bismark for petesake. What is it with libertarian perfectionism. Markets are not The Perfect and neither are human beings, so please stop building fantasy models that demand they both be so.

Why don't we have a debate about making a better system that makes everything better without throwing prudence out the window.
http://www.hrsdc.gc.ca/en/isp/cpp/cppchanges.shtml

The Trust Fund is no trust.
Here's how it works.
We pay money in now, in the form of FICA contributions, for Social Security. This money is spent on bridges in Alaska, rainforest museums, Trent Lott's multi-million dollar house, and gas for Nancy Pelosi's private jet trips.
In return, the government promises to give us money in the future. Where will the money come from? Why us, of course, which means we're going to pay for it twice.
Posted by secret asian man | November 23, 2007 3:52 PM

Do you understand that the "pay for it twice" statement is false? Unless you mean to say that all debt financing by the federal government is 'paying for it twice'. The American government does not have an SS problem, it has a general revenue problem. Basically your poxy government doesn't collect enough cash to cover its spending. If it did there would be no problem.
The risk to SS is political. A determined group of cretins trying to sneak out of an inter generational promise. But hey, if Americans want to treat each other like shitte, what can the world do; as a friend I'm just telling you, it's not a good idea, you wouldn't want to live in a country that treats people like that. Then again Americans have adjusted pretty well to officially sanctioned torture, unlimited dentention and universal data mining without warrant... so hey, maybe this is the new normal... every jerk for himself.

My advice, work hard to have the SS funds segregated as soon as possible in a dedicated fund. I remember some guy who useto talk about a lock box, but people giggled at him and he went away. Too bad for America. Pay the price.

Jasper wrote: "Um, yeah, okay, but what "point" exactly are y'all trying to make? Do you honestly think there are large numbers of people out there who think the government doesn't need to levy taxes to pay its bills, or that it won't require more taxes to pay for Social Security in 2030 than it does now? ...."

A lot of people believe precisely that, perhaps because real trust funds contain assets, not just the beneficiary's promise to pay himself lots of money. For instance, check out the November 14 post on Social Security on Brian Leiter's blog, http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com , where he explains that those who think Social Security is a problem are irrational because they ignore the "fact" that the system has $2 trillion in assets, which gives it enough to pay benefits for a very long time. Leiter is a law professor at Texas and a big name in legal philosophy. A couple of years back, the "New Yorker" ran an article making exactly the same point.

A survey on this point would be interesting. I'd guess that a considerable majority of college graduates think the trust fund contains real assets. (The usual argument is "If I had trillions in government bonds, I'd be rich, so the trust fund must be rich, too.") The whole idea behind the trust fund was to create this illusion. It worked very well.

A lot of people believe precisely that, perhaps because real trust funds contain assets, not just the beneficiary's promise to pay himself lots of money.

Alan Gunn: but a promise to pay from the federal government is a real asset. It's a claim -- backed by the law -- on future government cash flow. As long as the US continues to be a sovereign government with an independent ability to raise taxes, that claim is overwhelmingly likely to be realized in the form of government benefits checks. Or, to put it another way, there's no difference between a trust fund stuffed with government paper and one stuffed with private corporate debt instruments (say, IBM bonds). I personally think it's pretty obvious Uncle Sam is more likely to pay in full and on time than any single private firm.

What it really boils down to is some people don't like social insurance. Fair enough, I say: let's hear arguments similar to the one Megan is making about their consequences for the economy. But this never ending game of "gotcha" about the trust fund is dreary, tiresome, and really rather beside the point.

Yes, the Social Security trust fund isn't invested in shares of Microsoft, or precious gems, or Florida waterfront real estate. We get it already. Next topic.

Northern Observer,

"I remember some guy who use to talk about a lock box, but people giggled at him and he went away."

Apparently, you don't find the idea of an empty lock box as amusing as the rest of us do.

"Then again Americans have adjusted pretty well to officially sanctioned torture, unlimited dentention and universal data mining without warrant... so hey, maybe this is the new normal... every jerk for himself."

First, no matter how often you cry torture, it does not make it the case.

Second, there is no historical record of fighters detained during armed conflict being released before the armed conflict is over. However, I would much prefer collecting the intelligence they possess, bringing them before military tribunals, finding them guilty, executing them, putting them in body bags and sending them home.

Third, retailers do far more data mining about you than the federal government, unless of course you happen to be making calls to or receiving calls from suspected terrorists, which is still far from "universal" behavior.

Finally, it should long ago have become obvious to your that the Democrat/liberal/progressive/socialist/villageist position opposes individualism, even when expressed as "every jerk for himself".

Per Jasper:

"but a promise to pay from the federal government is a real asset. It's a claim -- backed by the law -- on future government cash flow."

Not when the promise is held by the government itself. If I held $2 trillion in U.S. bonds, I'd be rich. When the government itself holds $2 trillion in U.S. bonds it's exactly as rich as if it held nothing, because for every penny it can raise by selling those bonds it will incur an offsetting debt. (Just as I'd be $1000 better off if you sent me a cashier's check for that amount, but no better off if I wrote myself an identical check.) I thought from your previous post that you understood this, and were claiming that everyone else did, too.

I'm reasonably fond of Social Security myself. But not to the point of approving of using fraud to sell it to the public. In a sense, you're right in saying that discussions of the trust fund are beside the point--thee trust fund is imaginary, so why mention it? My answer is that a lot of people insist that it isn't imaginary and use its existence as an argument for ignoring a real problem. After re-reading your posts, I'm unclear as to where you stand: Do you think it's real, because government debt "is a real asset," or do you concede that it's make-believe and maintain that everyone knows this? Holding both positions really won't do.

Alan,

Social Security and Medicare were and are sold to the public by the force of law. The fraud involves only forestalling the revolt against what is clearly a "Ponzi Scheme" on steroids.

It must gall the soul of Charles Ponzi to realize what a small-time thinker he really was!

Jasper in blockquotes

but a promise to pay from the federal government is a real asset. It's a claim -- backed by the law -- on future government cash flow.
Such naive, innocent, faith is a wonder to behold. Anyone that could watch congress in action and seriously state that a promise from the government is an asset is the walking definition of naive. Congress wrote the law they can and will change it in a heartbeat. The naive faith in government continues.
.
I personally think it's pretty obvious Uncle Sam is more likely to pay in full and on time than any single private firm.
The experience of the various treaties between the US government and the Indian tribes makes the above statement laughable. The ongoing fraud and malfeasance in The Indian Trust Fund is just the icing on the cake.
.
What it really boils down to is some people don't like social insurance.

No people don't like being forced to participate in a glorified ponzi scheme that provides horrible rates of return.
Social Security Ripoff
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Relevant quote from the linked article
Could the government be paying you 0% on your money? I plugged that in. Still too high. In fact, the implied rate of return on my money in the Social Security system is -0.8% a year. In other words, not only is the government not paying me any interest, they are charging me to hold my money.


Yes, the Social Security trust fund isn't invested in shares of Microsoft, or precious gems, or Florida waterfront real estate. We get it already.
Your comments indicate that you fundamentally don't get just how badly social security is ripping off you and everyone else who pays social security taxes.
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Worst of all it especially rips off young workers who are just getting a start.

"Social security 'contributions' are lent to the government, where they are mostly spent on things that could not be remotely described as improving our economy's productive capacity, such as farm subsidies."

Whether or not your example is good the idea is sound. Perhaps you ought to think some about changing how the government spends the money. Isn't that the truly huge problem? No matter how much you natter about Social Security isn't the larger problem unwise and reckless spending?

Jasper: do people really believe the trust fund is meaningful? Well, NO does:

The American government does not have an SS problem, it has a general revenue problem.

QED

As I've said in another thread, how you take money out of the economy is a second-order effect; the fact that you're taking it out at all is what really matters. Quibbling about the trust fund is disguised quibbling about tax policy. We can't just ignore the question of rising spending as a percentage of GDP because there is some government paper somewhere.

NorthernObserver

Do you understand that the "pay for it twice" statement is false? Unless you mean to say that all debt financing by the federal government is 'paying for it twice'. The American government does not have an SS problem, it has a general revenue problem. Basically your poxy government doesn't collect enough cash to cover its spending. If it did there would be no problem.

This is, of course, false, which is why you must resort to ad-hominem attacks to cover for your lack of evidence.

Let's model the social security payout as grain. It could be a space shuttle for all I care - the point is that it's an expense that the government is incurring, it's consumed, and it's time-sensitive.

If I pay the government taxes and the government gives me grain, I'm paying for a service. If the government gives me grain, and I promise to pay taxes in the future, that's debt financing. Either way, I get grain, and the government gets something of value (either money, or a promise to pay)

That's how normal debt financing works. It may or may not be wise to finance with debt, but it is a known way of transacting. In this case, I borrow grain from the government (because I haven't paid for it in taxes), and the government in turn borrows money (possibly from my neighbors, possibly from the Chinese). Eventually I pay off the government and the government pays off the Chinese.

Now, I could give government money now, for grain later. This is when I hold the government's debt. Eventually I can take my government debt and convert it back into grain.

Social security is something else entirely, because the group paying in (right now large) and the group taking out (right now small) vary greatly in size, and the government pretends that it owing me money is the same as me owing it money.

Right now I give the government money. It owes me grain in the future. Since we have lots of workers right now, I'm giving the government twice as much money as it needs to buy grain, resulting in a surplus. Now when these workers retire, they ought to get the grain they paid for. In the future there may be less workers and more retirees, but this shouldn't be an issue since enough money was put it.

The government needs not store the grain - it could invest it. By "invest" I don't even mean something as exotic as the stock market. We could buy debt from countries that need grain now, but will have money in the future (this is what Japan and China are doing to us). Or, we could even invest in ourselves, by buying back all the debt we have. Other countries, after all, seem perfectly happy to buy our debt.

The government isn't investing it however. It's being spent, every last nickel and more, and by and large being spent on projects that do not in any way benefit the vast majority of citizens, and benefit only politicians, bureaucrats, and their contributors and cronies.

We have been pouring our grain all summer into the granaries, because we have been told when winter comes we will not starve.

In reality, when winter comes we will find that the granaries are empty, but Pharoah has a very nice palace and the vizier has a temple named after him

This isn't debt financing, it's fraud, and it's fraud on a scale that even Ramses the Second would not consider.

Social security socializes the benefits of childbearing in providing for retirement, but no one has yet figured out how to socialize the main cost, which is turning your life choices over to a screaming pre-verbal dictator.

Except for the public school system. That exerts an upward pressure on birthrates. The younger it starts, the stronger the upward pressure; if we made preschool universal at 3, we would recoup immediate higher Social Security revenues from women rejoining the workforce, and long-term revenues from the children born because the cost of raising them goes down. ("But no one would suggest we could eliminate public schooling!" "And who suggests we could eliminate the national bottom-line pension system?")

Social Security also encourages people to leave the workforce earlier than they otherwise would.

Do we have a problem with having too few people in the workforce in the US? Are our wages rising too fast? Is the percentage of under-65's employed dangerously high, relative to other advanced economies? No, no, and no. What is the harm being claimed?

Social Security discourages private savings.

How much? The return on Social Security is lower than all but the most conservative investments. It's a way of forcing people to insure moderately against poverty in retirement. Social Security income is the difference between living above or below the poverty line for 40% of American seniors. I am open to suggestions for alternatives. BUT: Any suggested alternative must have the virtues of universality and guaranteeing that seniors are not plunged back into poverty. Any insurance, any guarantee, by nature entails perverse incentives. That's life. The benefits outweight the costs.

Three paragraphs from the Brookings Institution's 1950 book _The Cost and Financing of Social Security_, by Lewis Meriam and Karl Schlotterbeck, are definitive about the meaning of the "trust fund." They also make clear that the use of the "trust fund" money to pay for general government operations was intended from the outset, so this use **isn't** fraudulent.

(What's fraudulent is how the program was originally sold as if it were an insurance contract, when it really wasn't and, as a practical matter, couldn't be. See John Attarian's 2002 book, _Social Security: False Consciousness and Crisis_, for full details.)

Here are the three paragraphs, from page 155 of the Brookings book:

"The establishment of the Trust Fund has given an aura of soundness and solvency to the OASI [Old-Age and Survivors Insurance] system. Many believe that this reserve fund 'earns' income in the same sense as do private insurance reserves; that, if need be, all claims could be met by liquidation of the reserves; and that an individual, with his final payment of OASI taxes, will have paid in full for his retirement benefits.

"The operation of the OASI Trust Fund is NOT [emphasis in original] similar in character to that of a private insurance company. Private insurance reserves (...) are usually invested in projects that directly participate in or promote the production of goods and services. These investments are procreative in character and thus 'earn' income. Furthermore, they are assets of the insurance company reserve, but they are liabilities of OTHER [emphasis in original] enterprises. The OASI Trust Fund is invested in federal government securities. Since the money is used by the government in meeting its regular expenditure requirements, no real reserve is created. The obligations of the government (liabilities) deposited in a trust account do not represent assets; they merely record future obligations which can be fulfilled only through the levy of future taxes upon the economy in general. The Trust Fund is thus a fiction -- serving only to confuse.

"The explanation of the failure to establish trust fund assets analogous to those provided by private insurance companies is presumably that the sums ultimately involved are so stupendous that available investment securities of productive enterprises would not be adequate for the purpose. The deposit of its own liabilities in a so-called reserve fund thus appeared as a happy solution to the problem."

Authors Meriam and Schlotterbeck had a cloudy crystal ball in projecting Social Security's numbers to 2000. For example, their estimate of $13.5 billion in total Social Security payout in 2000 has an antique charm. But they understood how the program operates, and if you can remember nothing else about Social Security, hang onto this sentence of theirs as a takeaway: "THE TRUST FUND IS THUS A FICTION -- SERVING ONLY TO CONFUSE."

"turning over your life choices to a screaming pre-verbal dictator".....well now, that's an attitude that will help any demographic challenge regardless of your economic accumen. Sort of makes the Grinch look like Mother Teresa but I imagine it reduces one's carbon footprint. Can euthanasia be far behind?

This transaction would actually be neutral (except for deadweight loss on the "contributions") if Congress used the Social Security money to reduce other debt; in effect, they would be doing our national saving for us. But in practice, though it is difficult to tease out cause and effect, the best evidence is that Congress simply spends the extra money as if it were tax revenue. Social security thus reduces national savings.

The mechanism by which this was accomplished over the past 7 years was the Bush tax cuts of 2001 and 2003. I don't know how many times one needs to repeat this. Democrats have been responsible stewards of the national debt; the debt has shrunk in every Democratic presidency since 1945. Since the Reagan Revolution, the Republican Party has ceased to be a responsible steward of the national debt, has taken office promising to cut taxes irresponsibly, and has succeeded in doing so.

If you want to look at Social Security as part of the federal government's overall spending, then you must at a minimum be honest about how it is that "congress" "spends" the Social Security surplus. It spends it in Republican tax cuts.

The return on Social Security is lower than all but the most conservative investments. [..] I am open to suggestions for alternatives. BUT: Any suggested alternative must have the virtues of universality and guaranteeing that seniors are not plunged back into poverty.

There's simply no way that a pay-as-you-go system can not leave someone holding the bag. Since all it does it shift money around from one group to another, if one group gets positive returns (which they have), ultimately another group will get negative returns. Anything else is the equivalent of a financial perpetual motion machine. As it stands, SS doesn't provide the generation behind the boomers much of an guarantee.(*)

But here's my proprosal: I would have the government run a series of mutual fund (one per birth year) that purchases public and private debt and equities (domestic and international). The debt/equity and foreign/domestic ratios would vary based on years until retirement.

Every person would have an account in their year's fund, and each year (starting at birth) every account would be pre-funded with some basic amount, and contributions up to that level would go to repaying the prepayment. Once the pre-funding was repaid, the participant could opt-out or continue to contribute to the account.

The idea would be that everyone has a basic, well-diversified, low expense (because it's essentially a program-traded index fund) account that they hold true property rights in. Withdrawals from the fund would be tightly proscribed, but the fund would be personal property - any remainder would become part of the person's estate upon death.

Essentially, Social Security would cease to be tax and would become a true mandatory savings account. Your "pension" becomes defined-contribution, not defined-benefit, that's the only truly sustainable way.

The pre-funding would be done from the general fund. I would also preserve the Social Insurance aspect of SS (disability payments and the like), but I would pay those from the general fund as well.

----

(*)This is the fact that so many SS defenders don't seem to get. It's not that (every) SS detractor faults the goals of SS; It's that we don't believe that Social Security meets those goals. SS is systematically impoverishing the post-boomers to the benefit of boomers. We were stuck with a higher-than-necessary regressive payroll tax in our low earning years to reduce progressive tax rates during the boomers high-earning years, and are then set to see a huge increase in progressive income tax rates when boomers retire and we reach our high earning years. In return we are promised largely negative returns and there's significant reason to doubt that we'll even get that much. We didn't have the vote in the 1983 "reform", so we didn't get a chance to say no to such a blatantly unfair proposal, but we do have a vote now, that's why this is becoming an issue. It's not (just) because the "Evil Republicans" want to screw retirees; it's because Generation X doesn't want to sell of their future for the benefit of the baby boomers. Nor do we particularly like a system that would impoverish our kids for our benefit.

BTW, anyone who calls tax cuts "spending" is just too partisan and needs to take a deep breath. Tax cuts may or may not be wise fiscal policy, but tax cuts are no more spending than my not buying anything on Black Friday was a pay raise.

SS is a program to take some of the brutality out of life as we know it. I don't know why conservatives can't understand this and accept it.

Uh, because we think that the government beating people over the head with clubs and then taking their money to give to other people is a lot more "brutal" than letting people save their own money and asking them to rely on voluntary charity if they don't?

Alan Gunn: but a promise to pay from the federal government is a real asset. It's a claim -- backed by the law -- on future government cash flow
Wrong. The "promise to pay" here is only a promise to pay itself, not a promise to pay us, and as such, it is not "backed by law."

If it were stuffed with IBM bonds, then the government could seize IBM's assets if IBM decided not to redeem those bonds at the appropriate time. It's a promise in the form of a legal obligation for IBM to pay. But there's no legal obligation here.

With SS, there's just a legally non-binding promise. (And what's the substance of that promise? It's a promise to tax us to give old people money.)

Personally, I always saw SS as FDR's way of trying to steal the Townsend Movement's thunder. (For those not au fait, the Townsend Movement was a scheme to end the Depression by giving every old person $300/month, to be spent that very month. Not surprisingly, it got a lot of support from the eldsters; the chronologically-overendowed are famous for greediness. When he was involved in politics, the late Robert Heinlein noted that many or most of the old people he ran into were interested in one of two things: Either a big government subsidy for them and them alone, or absolute security for their investments, and the Devil take anything else.)

I wish it were considered utterly dishonorable and disgraceful to take money from the government other than for services rendered. Or that welfare recipients (to include the recipients of farm subsidies, just for the record, as well as SS and regular welfare bums) would lose their right to vote.

SG:

It's not (just) because the "Evil Republicans" want to screw retirees; it's because Generation X doesn't want to sell of their future for the benefit of the baby boomers. Nor do we particularly like a system that would impoverish our kids for our benefit.

But you (make that "we" as I'm post-babyboomer as well) won't have to "sell off your future" to keep Social Security funded. Such dramatic language! -- or such utter ignorance of the numbers.

The payroll tax is likely to keep Social Security fully funded on an annual basis for another ten to twelve years. Is the 5-10% wage reduction you're suffering really causing you that much hardship? I say little evidence of this in general. America remains an astonishingly wealthy society, and one that is still very lightly taxed by the standard of other rich nations.

Anyway, after this period, SS will require gently increasing injections of cash from the rest of the budget to meet its obligations, but the sum total of this amount is two or three points of GDP over the next half century. America can afford it. I doubt we'll have to raise payroll taxes at all if, as seems likely, we're willing to look at modest increases in the retirement age. So, as you age, and your salary increases, will it really burden you all that much to continue to pay the FICA tax you're paying now? And if you're doing well, and your salary exceeds the $100k range, your tax will actually fall as a percentage of wages. I mean, are you having trouble paying the grocery bill or something?

Remember, even if we abolished SS tomorrow morning, you'd still have to sock away additional money for retirement. It's not as if abolishing Social Security would allow workers to realize some sort of dramatic increase in their living standards. And, unlike what you sock away on your own, Social Security is guaranteed: the United States government isn't going out of business anytime soon. Moreover, you get that monthly check coming in for life -- with COLA increases.

Sure, if you drop dead six months after you receive your first check it's not such a great deal. But if you live to 98 -- and a lot us will be reaching such lifespans -- I think it's a pretty decent deal. Indeed, to my mind, Social Security's biggest attraction is that it is essentially insurance against having your money run out if you live too long. And yes, even then it still may not compute out to the same rate of return you might get if you didn't have to pay the FICA tax and instead could put the money into the market. But you could say the same thing about the money taken out of your check that goes to defense, or foreign aid, or Nasa. I mean, I'd love it if everybody else had to pay taxes except me. Under those circumstances, I, too would get rich a whole lot more quickly than my current pace.

Anyway, what seals the deal for me is our lack of a way back machine. If we had one, and we were able to travel back to the 1930s and talk to FDR, I might well join you in urging the president to set up a defined contribution system. But we don't have such a machine, and so SS wasn't set up that way. And the transition costs to a defined contribution plan are formidable indeed. I don't see anyway to move to such a system without massive tax or deficit increases or drastic cuts in current benefits: mere means-testing the SS checks of the very wealthy isn't going to get the job done. I realize for some folks, this isn't a problem. But since I'm not ideologically opposed to government-sponsored social insurance in the first place (I see no evidence Americans live better than Scandinavians), for me the injustice of altering the social contract in mid stream is a no go.

In the final analysis, I have no doubt that a lot of people could do better financially if they didn't have to pay the FICA tax. Or the income tax. Or the sales tax. Or their property taxes. But the Social Security system remains understandably -- and in my view justifiably -- highly popular. So, if you don't want to participate in the system, either get a lot more people to think and vote like you do, or say hello to the jail my evil socialist brethren and I have waiting for you. And as for my part, I'll continue to educate my fellow post baby boomers that the scare tactics of the libertarians on this issue are pure bunk.

Wrong. The "promise to pay" here is only a promise to pay itself, not a promise to pay us, and as such, it is not "backed by law."

David Nierpont: Don't be absurd. If you pay into the Social Security system and meet the eligibility requirements you're entitled by law to your check. That's why they call it an "entilement" program. Denying you your check would require a change in the law.

It's a promise in the form of a legal obligation for IBM to pay. But there's no legal obligation here.

Don't be absurd again. The government is required by the law to make good on the money it has borrowed from the Social Security system. That law was passed by Congress and signed by President Reagan in 1983.

With SS, there's just a legally non-binding promise.

Wrong again. The 1983 legislation altered the funding practices of Social Security so that

As a result of these changes, particularly the tax increases, the Social Security system began to generate a large (short run) surplus of funds, intended to cover the added retirement costs of the "boomers." Congress invested these surpluses into special series, non-marketable U.S. government bonds held by the Social Security trust fund. Under the law, the government bonds held by Social Security are backed by the full faith and credit of the U.S. government.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_%28United_States%29)

You cite erroneous "beliefs" about Social Security's not being required to pay benefits. But, if, as seems likely, this is not a belief but rather a desire of yours, you're going to have to change the law to see your dreams come true. Good luck.

brooksfoe,

"Democrats have been responsible stewards of the national debt; the debt has shrunk in every Democratic presidency since 1945."

please provide cites to back that up...

that kind of pre-Election Year cloud-seeding just won't do...

Jasper: I'm confused by your last two posts. You mention in passing the possibility of "means-testing the SS checks" in your penultimate post, and then in you last post you talk about how SS isn't a legally non-binding promise because recipients are "entitled by law" to their checks. But David Nierpont's point is that the law you regard as unchangeable is in fact both easily changed and quite likely to be changed in the future--probably at least by adopting some sort of means-testing! If I buy IBM bonds and IBM decides not to pay, I can sue in a court of law, and IBM doesn't get to rewrite the relevant security law. With SS, if the government decides to change payouts in some way, they DO get to rewrite the law. You can argue that this is unlikely due to political pressure on the gov. not to change that law, but the fact that it's possible at all means SS benefits are by in that way less secure than the type of market instruments you're comparing them to.
I think the odds are good that within the next two decades SS benefits will be means-tested in some way. That will, for some people at least, alter the payouts (against their interest) from what they were originally promised "under the law." On the one hand you seem to acknowledge that payouts are alterable with a change in the law, and on the other hand you treat the currently promised (legal) guarantees as immutable. The legislation you cite shows that SS is unlikely to default entirely on the "trust fund" bonds, but this is not the only way future retirees might have their expectations (under the current law/payout structure) unsatisfied. Someone who paid in for decades only to receive nothing out when they retire in five years due to a new legally enacted strict means test would probably not have much in the way of legal recourse, while someone who held IBM bonds on which IBM defaulted probably would. In that sense, at least, there's a real difference. Property rights are valuable.

Jasper,

You have no legally enforceable rights to your Social Security benefits. Your benefits are in no way guaranteed. It would require a change of law, but Congress is free to change the law at any time. See the SSA website for more details. Here's the money quote:

But like all federal entitlement programs, Congress can change the rules regarding eligibility--and it has done so many times over the years. The rules can be made more generous, or they can be made more restrictive. Benefits which are granted at one time can be withdrawn.

You keep talking about SS like there's some meaningful guarantee given to contributors. There's not. Congress can change the benefits at any time. As you yourself allude to, they will probably increase the retirement age. They may also cut the benefits, change the COLA indexing from wages to CPI, increase the tax rate or remove the cap without increasing the benefits, or means-test the benefit. Any of these things would make an already poor deal for my generation even worse, and we would have no recourse. I fully expect some combination of these to occur, as the current system simply doesn't have the funds to pay my promised benefits when I retire. Hence the reason why I don't find the current "guarantee" to be very reassuring, and would much prefer to see a system where I do have recourse. Given Congressional history, I don't understand why anyone would choose to put their faith in future Congresses.

BTW, If you'd bother to read my proposal, it's actually fairly progressive and explicitly calls for retaining a safety net. But retirement is not a safety net situation. Old age is hardly some unforseeable event. I agree that not everyone will adequately save for their retirement and concede a role for government in forcing that savings to occur, but what's the justification for a pay-as-you-go system? I readily acknowledge the transition costs, but the current liability is already unfunded. A private system doesn't make the current problem worse, it just makes it finite.

Why do people so strongly defend a Ponzi scheme? We can clearly see the demographic train wreck coming; why do people want to keep riding on the track? And its not just the future problems. SS acts to transfer wealth from black males (who get doubly hit by the regressive nature of the payroll tax along with a shorter lifespan) to white women (who live longest). Imagine if we weren't sucking 12.4% of income away from inner cities and transferring it to Florida retirement communities? What if that money was instead inherited by their heirs? Perhaps we could be lifting the next generation out of poverty. Why are people so insistent on intergenerational wealth transfers?

brooksfoe,

I second Mark E. Hoffer's request. I'm especially curious about LBJ's administration. I seem to recall something about "guns and butter"/"Great Society" initiatives.

I will grant you Clinton (with a Republican Congress). But that only gets us back to 1992.

David Nieporent:

Uh, because we think that the government beating people over the head with clubs and then taking their money to give to other people is a lot more "brutal" than letting people save their own money and asking them to rely on voluntary charity if they don't?

Did the big bad government beat you over the head? I think they must have, because only then could you be so asinine as to compare taxation to getting drummed with a truncheon. It's just slightly less stupid than your blithe assumption that people can either "save their money" for every random crisis they face in their lives and hope that enough magnanimous people like you exist to provide charity in case of, oh, I don't know, a crippling injury to themselves or a loved one that DEPLETES THEIR F--KING SAVINGS AND LEAVES THEM WITHOUT ANY MONEY TO FEED THEMSELVES.

(Oh, but they'll be okay, because there's plenty of charity to go around, right? Right???)

You make life seem so easy, as though anyone working for any amount of income could dump enough money in the bank to pay for any potentiality. This tells me that you have probably led a very easy life. Let me guess: You've got a trust fund. Was Daddy clever enough to beat the death tax?

Technomad:

I wish it were considered utterly dishonorable and disgraceful to take money from the government other than for services rendered. Or that welfare recipients (to include the recipients of farm subsidies, just for the record, as well as SS and regular welfare bums) would lose their right to vote.

I wish it were legal to force-feed you dog feces. Would you do it if I gave you $500?

David Nierpont: Don't be absurd. If you pay into the Social Security system and meet the eligibility requirements you're entitled by law to your check. That's why they call it an "entilement" program. Denying you your check would require a change in the law.
Jasper, you're confused. They call it an entitlement program because that sounds better than "welfare for lazy old people." You're entitled to nothing by law, except in the tautological sense that once Congress passes a law requiring that something be done, it is required that this thing be done until the law is changed. In that sense, all government programs are "entitlement programs." There is absolutely nothing unique legally about social security that makes it more enforceable in the future than, e.g., food stamps, farm subsidies, or National Endowment for the Arts grants.

You keep throwing around the words "the law," but every government program is "the law." That's how government programs are created: Congress passes laws.

The point is this: if a private company says, "You know what? We don't feel like paying you the pension you were promised when you worked for us," you can sue them. If the government says, "You know what? We don't feel like paying you the social security benefits you were promised when you paid your FICA taxes," you have no legal recourse. (Flemming v. Nestor -- it's a Supreme Court case. You can look it up.)

Did the big bad government beat you over the head? I think they must have, because only then could you be so asinine as to compare taxation to getting drummed with a truncheon.
To be sure, they're not identical; at least the truncheon-wielder doesn't pretend he's doing it for your own good when he hits you, the way the government does.

Hint: how do you think the government collects taxes? It threatens people. With violence. Only rarely does it need to follow through on the threat, but that's only because its big and powerful enough that the threat is credible. People don't pay taxes because socialists think it's a noble thing to do; people pay taxes because the government forces them to, at gunpoint if necessary.

(Or, to quote PJ O'Rourke: The other secret to balancing the budget is to remember that all tax revenue is the result of holding a gun to somebody's head. Not paying taxes is against the law. If you don't pay your taxes, you'll be fined. If you don't pay the fine, you'll be jailed. If you try to escape from jail, you'll be shot. Thus, I -- in my role as citizen and voter -- am going to shoot you -- in your role as taxpayer and ripe suck -- if you don't pay your share of the national tab. Therefore, every time the government spends money on anything, you have to ask yourself, "Would I kill, my kindly, gray-haired mother for this?")

It's just slightly less stupid than your blithe assumption that people can either "save their money" for every random crisis they face in their lives and hope that enough magnanimous people like you exist to provide charity in case of, oh, I don't know, a crippling injury to themselves or a loved one that DEPLETES THEIR F--KING SAVINGS AND LEAVES THEM WITHOUT ANY MONEY TO FEED THEMSELVES.
(1) Ever hear of insurance? (2) If enough magnanimous people don't exist, then TFB. If you want to be generous, write a check from your own account -- not from someone else's.
Let me guess: You've got a trust fund. Was Daddy clever enough to beat the death tax?
You guessed wrong. Like most socialists, you think that everyone is as self-absorbed as you are. You're not generous, so you assume nobody else will be; you're not self-reliant, so you assume nobody else can be.

SG: frankly, I was amazed by the debt charts when I saw them too, but the fact is the national debt shrank as a percentage of GDP steadily from 1945 on. Johnson had the good luck to leave office before the recession of '69 if I remember rightly, so he shouldn't get all the credit, but at least he wasn't blowing his stash in the face of a RISING national debt. And again, the debt as percentage of GDP is the meaningful stat; the straight dollar amount is likely to rise due to interest, but that doesn't matter much if it's being erased by inflation or economic growth.

Anyway, I'll try and find that debt chart for you -- unfortunately I don't have time at the moent.

Only one thing came to mind after reading Northern Observer's post, and those similar to his line of reasoning.

Principal: Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Billy Madison: Okay, a simple wrong would've done just fine.

"Democrats have been responsible stewards of the national debt; the debt has shrunk in every Democratic presidency since 1945."

v.

"but the fact is the national debt shrank as a percentage of GDP steadily from 1945 on.."

and: "the debt as percentage of GDP is the meaningful stat; the straight dollar amount is likely to rise due to interest, but that doesn't matter much if it's being erased by inflation or economic growth."

brooksfoe,

could you be any more disingenuous?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/disingenuous

Since all it does it shift money around from one group to another, if one group gets positive returns (which they have), ultimately another group will get negative returns. -- SG

SG, the economy GROWS OVER TIME. Society gets richer. That's because productivity grows, and the population grows. At the moment, the population of retirees is growing faster than the population as a whole due to increased longevity and the Baby Boom bulge. But that's a 20-year bulge that will then disappear, and it's nowhere near so big that it's unaffordable in an economy that's grown at an average of 2.5%-3% for the past 40 years.

Look, NO cash-generating investment can grow faster than the economy as a whole unless some other investment grows slower than the economy as a whole. Social Security's rising returns are based on the cumulative increase in wealth of the nation as a whole. Which is the only way that a national pension system can make sense; it can't try to beat the market, by definition.

Mark Hoffer,

you are either arguing in bad faith, or you are not very smart. A 2 trillion dollar debt in a 10 trillion dollar economy is obviously larger than a 2.5 trillion dollar debt in a 20 trillion dollar economy. Otherwise, Italy is a more fiscally responsible country than the United States, since its national debt is far lower in strict dollar amounts.

The chart confirming that debt has fallen as a percentage of GDP under every Democratic President since 1945, and exploded under Reagan/Bush and Bush II, comes from www.whitehouse.gov. You can see that chart here:

http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

Or you can see a more detailed graph comparing the debt as percentage of GDP to strict dollar amount here:

http://www.cedarcomm.com/~stevelm1/usdebt.htm

Enjoy, jerk.

"it's nowhere near so big that it's unaffordable in an economy that's grown at an average of 2.5%-3% for the past 40 years."

brooksfoe,

you mean we can go another ~U$D 50 Trillion deeper in debt over the Next 40 years and all will be good?

how myopic does one have to be to be able to equate our fiscal position in 1967 to that which we 'enjoy' now?

and, this peach: "the economy GROWS OVER TIME. Society gets richer. That's because productivity grows, and the population grows.." Spontaneous productivity growth(?) brooksfoe, if that's the reality, be a Sport, tell Bangladesh..

You misinterpret my support for private accounts. It's not to beat the market (a foolish goal on an individual level and impossible on a national level). It's to give contributors a property interest in their "contributions".

As you correctly observe, any national system can only do as well as the market. So the current system is already exposed to market risk, but it's also subject to political risk. For example, a logical reform coming down the pike is to reset the retirement age. If it were to be reset to the average lifespan, I'd lose several years of returns. I'd have no recourse. If my contributions were my property, I would.

I'd also like to allow poor people to be building an asset base. As it stands, poor people pay an outsize portion of their income to SS; they also tend to die earlier so they collect less money in return. If they die young, the balance of their "contributions" reverts to the government. To the extent that money is being taken to provide for their old age, they shouldn't lose it because they had the misfortune not to reach old age. This happened to my father-in-law who died at 59.

The list of things the government could spend our SS contributions on besides the elderly can be seen by looking at the latest federal budget. Demographics are turning against the program. Given that the SS money is notionally being taken to provide for me in my later years, I'd rather keep that money in my name. I still fail to see the downside.

Given that the payments are tied to your contributions, can you provide some reasonable defense for pay-as-you-go? A defense other than "Everything was fine before Bush", because we know that it wasn't. SS has had to be revised multiple times over it's history to drag in new participants and increase tax rates because without Social Security has repeatedly run into sustainability issues.

There is a place for "social insurance", but insurance is meant to provide protection against unlikely events. Growing old is not an unlikely event and it's not an insurable event. It's an event to be planned for. If the money remains in the contributor's name, then you don't have to worry about the right President or Congress being elected. Ownership combined with diversification reduces the risk.

Mark Hoffer: since the end of World War II, there has never been a five-year period in which US productivity did not grow at least 1 percent. Productivity growth averaged 2.8% until 1973, slowed to 1.2-1.5% through 1995, and recovered to 2.5% or more from 1995-2006. Do you anticipate productivity ceasing to grow? Why?

SG: actually, I completely agree with you. I think contributions to SS ought to be legally owned assets. That way, the government would have no way to renege on such obligations short of defaulting on the national debt. The current situation plays income-tax payers off against SS tax payers: essentially, the wealthy, who pay higher income taxes and have seen recent tax cuts that drove up the national debt, are now trying to pay for their tax cuts by cutting Social Security benefits, which mostly go to people poorer than them. If Social Security benefits were legally titled assets (say, bonds), that would be impossible: the government could no more refuse to make good on them than it could refuse to pay out on the bonds held by Chase or the State Bank of China. That would be a fairer deal for American citizens.

brooksfoe,

QUESTION: Who was it that said family income, saving, living standard AND freedom growth depend on the capacity of the private sector?

ANSWER: Just about every economist in the world, including the Economic Report of the President to Congress.

NEXT QUESTION: If most say nearly all eggs belong in the private sector basket for the sake of good and secure jobs with long term real income growth, then why have we allowed government to grow faster than the economy - - and thereby shrink the relative size of that important private sector and its capacity to generate good stuff?

ANSWER: There can be but one answer. Those in control in recent decades have been more interested in government expansion, political power, control and dominance, than in families and children and their freedom to choose - and more convinced that big government knows better than families what is good for them, or for children than their parents. What else explains the result?

http://mwhodges.home.att.net/piechart.htm

also, the charts, in the link below, from 2002 show trends working away from 'equilibrium' (they haven't changed direction since)..

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=3521&type=0&sequence=0

productivity growth, at its best, comes from capital investment from current savings...the longer we run macro-account deficits and the further into the future we push off rehabilitating our infrastructure, the more we imperil our ability to increase our economic productivity...

these cats, below, have alot of time on their hands, with such, have produced many pretty graphs that aren't so pretty..

http://www.cbo.gov/

Mark Hoffer: call me when the productivity growth stops, ok?

Productivity growth is not sufficient. GDP is productivity x labor force. If the labor force is declining faster than productivity increases, you'll still get a net reduction in GDP.

And given that SS is funded through a capped payroll tax, even productivity growth doesn't help you out, at best it defers the problem a little longer. Because of demographics, there are simply fewer workers per beneficiary. Higher productivity means each worker makes more, but since their contribution is capped, there's a limit to how much you can tap that increased productivity. And since benefits growth is tied to wage growth, not inflation, the two tend to stay coupled in any case.

If you were to remove the cap, but continue the fiction that SS payments are contributions, an increase in contributions simply increases the future liability.

Pay-as-you-go requires an ever increasing number of contributors relative to beneficiaries. When that stops being true, the system fails.

(1) Ever hear of insurance? (2) If enough magnanimous people don't exist, then TFB. If you want to be generous, write a check from your own account -- not from someone else's.

(1) Not everyone can afford insurance for every conceivable disaster. Insurance can be kinda expensive, you know?

(2) A fine sentiment: Let the poor bastards starve.

You guessed wrong. Like most socialists, you think that everyone is as self-absorbed as you are. You're not generous, so you assume nobody else will be; you're not self-reliant, so you assume nobody else can be.

Not self-reliant? Cocksucker, I'll bet you $100,000 that I make more money than you do. Don't worry, I've got plenty to cover myself if I'm wrong.

Not generous? Wrong there, too, buddy.

And what's this nonsense about socialism? Did I say I was a socialist?

The only thing I share with socialists is that I'd gladly beat you over the head for your money. Hell, I'd do it for free. And as my nom de plume suggests, I'd enjoy every second of it.

SG: at some point, honesty requires that you come to terms with the fact that the Boomers have been paying more in SS taxes than were being paid out in benefits since 1983, in order to build up a trust fund (or, if you prefer, reduce the national debt) so that the government can afford to pay their benefits when they retire. In this sense, SS is not a pay-as-you-go system. You also have to address the fact that the Boomer bulge is a bulge -- i.e., it goes down again at the other end. We will face a point at which the number of retirees per worker stops rising or actually falls. After that, it will start rising again, but only as fast as life expectancy does. If we have a problem with productivity growth or overall economic growth failing to keep up with increasing life expectancy at that point, then we will have to look again at whether we can afford the system. But not before.

The ways that people convince themselves that Social Security faces a crisis are like those parlor tricks where you count the fingers on both hands and add them up to eleven. "But the government has already spent the trust fund!" "Yes, and your bank has already spent the money you deposited in your account. And yet when you go to collect it, the bank will give it back, with interest." "But the number of retirees per worker keeps rising!" "For a while, it will, due to the Boomer bulge. Then it will stop or go down again." The Trustees' report forecasts SS rising as a percentage of GDP through 2041. Then it essentially flatlines. There is no principled conceptual problem with Social Security; there either is an accounting problem, or there isn't. And, in fact, there isn't.

We need to stop talking about this, because it isn't important. We need to start talking about Medicare and controlling health care costs.

So I finally went back and read the Clive Crook post that set this all off. Here is Crook on whether or not the system faces a "crisis":

Democrats who would generally be in favour of unwinding the Bush tax cuts, abolishing the earnings ceiling on the social security tax and finding a few other ways to raise taxes on the rich, are mainly concerned to keep reform of social security off the agenda. It does not need fixing, they say, it is not broken. Any deviation from that gives Republicans an opening to renew their assault on one of America’s finest social-policy achievements. Why go there?

On an imp