Is it even really cheating when taxi drivers charge tourists more? My mother clearly thought so, and nearly made us miss our plane by getting into a fight with a taxi driver on the way to the airport. But it doesn't bother me that much. In the case of Vietnam (not so much in Greece), the "cheating" will not make so much as a ripple in my budget, while making the cab driver much better off. It seems less like cheating than Pareto optimisation. I don't see any moral reason why I should be treated exactly the same as a native Vietnamese, since after all, I won't be, when we show up at JFK and wave our respective passports.
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except for the part where each cheat emboldens a cheater to do more... but you may be right. If they are in a gray area is one thing. If they are deliberately breaking their own law, then they are endangering themselves. It may not matter to you, but to themselves it could be a problem... Then there is the tradeoff, of if they will make enough to make the risk worth something, and so on. Doesn't seem to be as straightforward a tradeoff to me.
I considered this myself when I visited Ukraine. I knew the taxi drivers were charging me more than they charged their countrymen, but I still felt like it was a good deal. If we were both happy with the price we negotiated, isn't that the definition of a fair trade?
The only problem I can see is that many of the criteria a taxi driver could use to determine country of origin end up being ethnic/language/racial features. In Vietnam, it might be perfectly acceptable to discriminate based on race; in the US, it clearly is not.
If the driver checked passports, though, and had a posted rate table for various countries, then I don't think I'd have any problem with it.
If you're really worried about his economic well-being, though, just give him a big tip.
Just wait until you get cheated consistently everywhere. In Vietnam, EVERYWHERE you go has the "outsider" price. And it's normally double the native Vietnamese price.
Such is a communist country.
I guess also, by your reasoning, if I own a gas station, and you pull up in your Lexus, I can charge more for gas since I know you can afford it... and it will make me much better off? That would rock.
"I guess also, by your reasoning, if I own a gas station, and you pull up in your Lexus, I can charge more for gas since I know you can afford it... and it will make me much better off? That would rock."
You've obviously never taken a luxury car to an auto mechanic. The only reason it isn't done at gas stations is that there's no way to assess car price automatically.
And actually, higher-priced "premium" gasoline is essentially price discrimination on car value.
One of the reasons Vietnam is a popular tourist destination is because it is inexpensive and friendly. As D said, successful cheating encourages the cheater to do more, and encourages others to cheat. You said you were asked for a few extra dollars. I didn't get off so easily- my driver stopped midway through the trip and told us it would be $40 each. Is that ok?
Once word gets out that tourists are cheated, people feel less comfortable about choosing Vietnam as a tourist destination. So it's ruined for everybody.
Many low cost-of-living/low wage countries do have different rates for things such as hotel rooms for their own citizens. I find that positive.
Cheating on established rates, however, isn't charming.
Ah, taxi drivers!
I once attended a chemistry technology expo in Chicago that was being held in a well known locale for such events. On getting into a cab and informing the driver where I wanted to go, he started taking a route completely opposite of the one that was required. Rather than upbraid him for trying to cheat me into paying for a longer fare, I just casually noted that it was good to be back in a city I had lived in for four years during graduate school. He corrected the direction at the very first opportunity to do so.
"You've obviously never taken a luxury car to an auto mechanic. The only reason it isn't done at gas stations is that there's no way to assess car price automatically."
The reason it's not done at gas stations is because gas is pretty much the same no matter where you get it. If one station charged lexuses more, the lexus drivers would just go down the street to the station that didn't overcharge them.
And actually, higher-priced "premium" gasoline is essentially price discrimination on car value.
The premium-grade fuels are designed to prevent knock in designs with higher compression ratios, by changing the ratio of the fuel to invoke a slightly slower burn rate. This sometimes, but not exclusively, includes many engines in expensive cars. Most modern (post-1990) engines have enough electronic betrickery to avoid knock at a slight performance loss by tweaking the air/fuel ratio, but nonetheless run best when using the manufacturer's recommended fuel grade.
However, since the premium fuel grades are a lower-demand product and therefore more expensive to distribute, this is not "price discrimination" in the sense of arbitrarily charging one passenger twice as much as the next for an identical service provision, simply because the one passenger can be convinced to pay it.
Perhaps someday technology will help solve the mess that is taxicab fare pricing and regulation. With the mapping capabilities available from Google and others it is conceivable that, someday, fares will be quoted in advance.
When I was in Thailand, retail shops all had price tags on the items. But only very naive tourists paid that price. The shopkeepers love to haggle, so the price ends up being different for EVERYONE.
The U.S. is in a decided minority in wanting everyone to pay the same price for goods.
I'm pretty much with you, Megan. When I spent two years in Central America doing missionary work (1972-74), I haggled with the best of them, largely because I was on a low ($110/month) fixed income that had to cover everything (room, board, etc.). When I returned to Costa Rica twice in the late 1990s for some software engineering lectures I was presenting, I did very little haggling and, I'm sure, overpaid frequently. But knowing what the gap was between what I earned and what they earned, I just couldn't bring myself to argue much. ..bruce..
bfwebster- Taxis in Vietnam have posted rates and meters which a client has every right to assume will be the price he is charged when using the service. For the haggling analogy to be apt, you and the shopkeeper would agree to a price and then, when you have it in your hands, he would charge you more.
Or the item he sold you would not be what he said it was.
Of course you could treat the taxi ride like a market, and haggle over the price before you accept the ride.
The taxi drivers are cheating, whether one feels charitable for going along with it is another issue.
"In Vietnam, it might be perfectly acceptable to discriminate based on race; in the US, it clearly is not."
"The only reason it isn't done at gas stations is that there's no way to assess car price automatically."
Joel, you're serious? Wow!
Sure, it's OK!~ in area X , but in Area Y "Forget about it!~", it just won't do. Care to compare and contrast why one mode is fine in a certain area, yet horrific in another?
And, on the second part, care to see: http://www.advancedimagingpro.com/
Tell it to these dudes, see how it worx for you..or, better explain it to us.
"Perhaps someday technology will help solve the mess that is taxicab fare pricing and regulation. "
Herb, try this from 877_RENT-A-CLU:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=GPS+asset+tracking+software
There's a set price for taxis and that's there for a reason. There's always a tip for those who deserve it -- I myself might tip taxi drivers who drive carefully, as instructed, or don't try to ask for more than what the meter says.
Mind you in Vietnam people don't tip for meals and taxi rides. Myself and my English and Antipodean colleagues used to wail in despair as our New York colleague used to hand over large tips for lunch or to delivery guys and so on. He's gone and left a legacy of unnecessary tipping in all our favourite lunch spots!!!
The sooner we banish all vestiges of "everyone haggles and gets a different price", the better. That practice is barbaric and has no place in the modern world. I suspect the only reason that anyone really supports it is that they see "dominant" individuals as more deserving of this subsidy -- Robin_Hanson's "Darwinian intuitions of fairness" theory.
The problem with price discrimination is the unpredictable way it affects the general commercial climate. It means price discovery takes ages; in fact, no one really knows what prices are, which has non-transparent repercussions all through the economy. One reason foreigners like doing business in Vietnam is precisely what Megan noticed: people keep the overcharging to a vaguely reasonable level, and you don't get into screaming fights or violent conflicts when you protest. In much of West Africa, people will get you involved in one deal, figure out how to get you hooked, and then take all your time up trying to work the deal for more money and less deliverable. It's a waste of time and it leaves you feeling constantly mistrustful and angry.
I know a number of young Vietnamese who say they prefer supermarkets because you don't have to bargain. It seems like it has a lot to do with the value of one's time. People who are doing well have better things to do than sit around haggling endlessly over one deal. Anyway, I don't think the effects of price discrimination are quite so benign; I think that one notices the difference between cab drivers mainly using the meter in Vietnam versus the anything-goes situation in Cambodia or Laos, and it leads one to want to do business in Vietnam, not Cambodia or Laos.
I once attended a chemistry technology expo in Chicago that was being held in a well known locale for such events. On getting into a cab and informing the driver where I wanted to go, he started taking a route completely opposite of the one that was required. Rather than upbraid him for trying to cheat me into paying for a longer fare, I just casually noted that it was good to be back in a city I had lived in for four years during graduate school. He corrected the direction at the very first opportunity to do so.
Last time I was in Shanghai, same thing happened. I've been back and forth to the airport plenty of times; I know the way. Cab driver goes in the other direction. But the problem there is that I don't speak enough Chinese to get him to understand that I know he was taking me for a ride. At the end of the trip, the charge was twice the normal fare. But what to do about it? I could either pay him the fare he was supposed to charge me (in which case who knows what happens) on principle, or pay him what he actually charged me (and get slightly upset about being screwed)?
And the Chinese are not as poor as the Vietnamese, so it is slightly more difficult to take Megan's approach.
Wow, I never thought I'd see the day when I agreed with brooksfoe about something.
Another thing about Africa: one observation mentioned on Arnold_Kling's blog (though I can't remember the post) is that in some parts of Africa, "negotation" typically consists of explaining to the other party why they have no choice but to deal with you, rather than explaining how the deal will benefit them.
Outside the main entrance of the Saigon train station, I was literally fought over by 2-3 cyclo drivers, who, in spite of my very tall white guy bulk and mass, was seen a a better fare than the entire families, with crates of vegetables and live chickens getting off the same train.
I tend to agree with Megan on this one. It is frustrating when you're living in a developing country with a relatively fixed income (say as a volunteer) and the locals try to take advantage of your assumed ignorance. It doesn't bother me when they charge the tourists a little more, but heck I've ridden the same cab ride once every two weeks for the last two year, and I know exactly how much it costs.