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Mental models of immigration

31 Dec 2007 10:36 am

Glen Whitman ponders the difference between my preferences and Kerry Howley's on immigration:

I won’t weigh in on the topic itself, fascinating though it is. I’m more interested in trying to parse why they disagree. One interpretation of Kerry vs. Megan is that they differ in their preference ordering. Kerry’s preferences look like this:
{more legal immigration}
pref {guest-worker program}
pref {status quo}
whereas Megan’s, apparently, look like this:
{more legal immigration}
pref {status quo}
pref {guest-worker program}.
That is, Kerry and Megan would both ideally like to see expanded legal immigration, but since that’s a political dead letter, they are consulting their second preferences. Their second preferences differ, because Megan thinks the negative consequences of a guest-worker program are bad enough to make it worse than the status quo.

But here’s an alternative interpretation of Kerry vs. Megan: They have the same preferences (both consider a guest-worker program superior to the status quo, as in the first ordering above),but they have different political strategies. Kerry, thinking that expanded immigration is not going to happen, pushes her second preference for a guest-worker program. Megan, thinking expanded immigration might still be in the cards, opposes a guest-worker program because it could siphon support from the superior alternative.

(Clearly, it’s Megan’s position that I’m less clear about.

Economists have a tendency to represent simple verbal things in more complicated jargon, in part because this is occasionally clarifying, and in part because it is fun. And hell, it's New Years Eve, so I can't resist trying my own model.

Let's suppose a simple model where there are five classes of people: foreigners, illegal immigrants, guest workers, permanent legal immigrants, and Americans. Represent them by the letters f, g, i, l and a. Assume that for each there is a population P, with one interesting variable dimension, W. Take as stylized facts that:

Wa > Wl > Wg > Wi > Wf

and population growth is exogenous to American migration flows so that global population can be simply represented by the following equation:

Pf = Pworld - (Pa + Pl + Pg + Pi)

Global welfare will then be described by the equation:

Wworld = PaWa + PlWl +PiWi + PgWg + PfWf

Right now, for our purposes, Pg = 0. Kerry would like to see it increased to much greater than 0. I would like it to stay 0.

Glenn is right, I think, that for both of us the first preference is a scenario in which legal immigration is increased, so that in twenty years, our population and culture have been enriched by hordes of assimilated foreigners merrily remitting financial and human capital back to their home countries:

Wa + Pa +
Wl + Pl +
WgNo changePg No change
WiNo changePi -
Wf + Pf -

But since this is politically infeasible, Kerry turns to a guest-worker program as second-best. Here, I think, is Kerry's mental model of what happens with a guest worker program:

WaNo changePa No change
WlNo changePl No change
WgNo changePg +
WiNo changePi -
Wf + Pf -

This, obviously, represents an unambiguous Pareto improvement, especially since we both anticipate that current American immigration policy will make Pi fall no matter what we do about guest workers; indeed, I think Kerry views guest worker programs as a possible way to alleviate anti-illegal sentiment.

My mental model, however, extends over multiple time periods. In time period one, you import a large number of guest workers who impose adjustment costs on their neighbors, including other immigrants with whom they compete for resources. In time period two, those guest workers go home and are supposed to be replaced by new guest workers. However, the frictional costs of those guest workers has increased opposition to both legal immigration, and the guest worker program. So in time period 1, things look like this:

Wa - Pa No change
Wl - Pl No change
WgNo changePg +
Wi - Pi No change
Wf + Pf -

In period two, one of two things happens (possibly both): there are significant changes in the law and our institutions in order to better contain guest workers; or the guest worker program and the legal immigration program are curtailed in order to appease rising anti-immigration sentiment. I fear an outcome like this:

Wa - Pa -
Wl - Pl -
WgNo changePg -
Wi - Pi -
WfNo changePf +

In other words, I'm not holding out for some awesome future that both Kerry and I would probably agree is first best, but would probably also agree is not currently politically feasible. I'm against guest worker programs because I think it is possible to do much worse than the status quo, and that guest worker programs will probably reduce American welfare, immigrant welfare, and the total number of foreigners represented by (Pl + Pg + Pi).

Obviously, I don't think that P=1 for my scenario. But it doesn't have to be all that close to one for guest worker programs to start looking a lot less attractive.

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Comments (37)

Megan: I couldn't agree with you more. The Germany/Turkey model is definitely not something we ought to emulate. Moreover, I think Howley's pessimism regarding the political feasibility of the reform of US immigration laws is unwarranted. Yes, nothing's very likely to happen in the next year. But with a Democratic president and an electorate that's growing browner by the minute? Who knows? These episodic outbreaks of xenophobia never seem to last very long. I'm old enough to remember news stories about crowds of irate Midwesterners sledge-hammering Toyotas as a form of protest. That, too, passed.

So it sounds like my first interpretation (you prefer the status quo to a guest-worker program) was correct.

Well, yes, otherwise I would be in favor of guest worker programs.

Criminals did NOT build America; Citizens and LEGAL immigrants built it. Illegal Aliens and Immigration is NOT the same thing. 80% of the American people want an end to anarchy! This is NOT a Democrat, Republican, Independent issue. It's an American Issue.

Illegal aliens are criminals, those who hire them are criminals and those who aid-and-abet them are criminals.

Illegal aliens in America have NO rights. We are required by law to arrest and prosecute, deport them. (Title 8 U.S. Code) To report illegal aliens call the DHS National Hotline 1 866 DHS 2ICE. (1-866-347-2523)

No, matter your political party affiliation, and setting aside your thoughts on issues. We all need to remember what it is to be an American Citizen. We need to make sure our elected representatives obey their Oath of Office and keep their Oath of Allegiance. See http://tinyurl.com/2znnvl Know whom you are voting for.

Criminals did NOT build America

I know it's probably just feeding a troll, but the "builders" of America were indeed criminals. As subjects of the British crown, they were hardly law-abiding and obedient...

I also forgot to mention that I doubt they complied with the legal immigration policies of the Sioux and the Mohawk and the Navaho...

Fair enough Geoff; if you're suggesting we treat illegal immigrants as though they're seeking colonial conquest and revolution, I suppose there are a lot of people who agree with you.

Criminals did NOT build America; Citizens and LEGAL immigrants built it. Illegal Aliens and Immigration is NOT the same thing.

Or, to put it another way, most of the people who came to the US and "built" America during the 19th century would be criminals by the standards of 2007. In those days, if you could afford the steerage fare from Europe and weren't obviously TB-ridden, you got in. No quotas. No insane visa regulations keeping out people with graduate degrees. No bullshit about job stealing.

I always find the talismanic repetition of "illegal" by the anti-immigrationists highly amusing. We can take care of the problem of illegal immigration with one sentence: "Congress shall make no law respecting immigration." Somehow, I doubt that the anti-immigrationists will be satisfied.

Besides, all sorts of things I favor are illegal, like driving 70 on the highway, the American revolution (as noted) and, at least arguably, the Constitution, which ignored the amendment provisions of the Articles of Confederation.

And, I have to admit, I suspect that the anti-immigrationists aren't really as fetishistic about "illegal" as they present themselves. If we're going to have a public discussion of what our immigration law ought to be, then "illegal" isn't really all that interesting except as an indicator that our current policy might be in trouble. Of course, the entire history of immigration into the US makes clear that we're simply not going to enforce those laws, which is why the status quo is acceptable to people who think we need more immigration rather than less.

Right now, for our purposes, Pg = 0

Actually we already have quite a few Temporary worker programs (H-1B, H-1C, H-2A, H-2B).

@Jasper,
Yep nothing has changed since the 19th century, we still have the same amount of open land, same number of people, same amount of social services, and we get the same return on manual labor.

@ David Cohen
Most people get pretty annoyed when their perfected policy is the law and the law is blatantly ignored. If you think people want more immigration, prove it by changing the law. Also note that the illegal immigrants must do more than just be here "illegally" to work here. They also have to either work under the table or commit document fraud.

If more people want to come to the US than we are willing to take, then we need laws that will make it illegal for them to come here. There are *billions* of poor people in world. So how many do you want to take?

"Well, yes, otherwise I would be in favor of guest worker programs."

Not necessarily. As I explained in my post, in the last paragraph you quoted, there is a rational (strategic) reason to oppose a guest-worker program even if you think it's better than the status quo.

People who compare 19th Century immigration policies with amnesty for illegals always "forget" to mention that there was no welfare state in the 19th Century. A substantial number of those who came in the 19th Century turned around and went home because they couldn't make it in the New World. There was no "free" healthcare, no "free" Social Security benefits, no "free" public education and no "free" food stamps, public housing and WIC vouchers on the prairie nor in the New York slums. You got sick, you died. You didn't work, you starved. You had a problem with the Indians, you got scalped. Unlimited immigration coupled with the welfare state is simply abuse of the native-born population. Importing millions upon millions of tax consumers and giving them the right to vote themselves welfare benefits at the expense of native-born taxpayers. . .please, what part of this is not outright, blatant thievary? Those who want open borders can damn well pay for them )(yeah, I'm looking at you, Jasper, Geoff and David); those of us who want national sovereignty, rule of law and some semblance of the First World nation we grew up in, shouldn't have to pay. Anything.

It seems to me that Megan is thinking like a typical conservative.

She's willing to deny people the opportunity to voluntarily cooperate because she fears that the costs to the culture are worse than the benefits to the individuals involved. She hopes that one day the world will change so as to alleviate these fears; but in the mean time she wants to give in to them.

I'm glad she doesn't carry this attitude into all other areas, but I'm a bit disappointed that she does so here.

@Jasper, on Germany/Turkey model.

Actually the gastarbeiter worked quite well. First, many were from Italy,Spain and Yugoslavia. Most returned home to invest what they had earned in those countries, and no doubt brought human capital back with them as well. Even among Turks, most returned home. As for the results, we have two control groups, the Brits and the French. The former practiced a sort of laissez faire multi-culturalism. The result, 7/7 bombings, riots in Oldham , not to mention vast tracts of their cities which seem more like the third world than Europe (demographically, infrastructure-wise, cleanliness wise). The French, despite their strong (neocon-like) emphasis on assimilation have regular riots in their quartiers sensibles. Somehow Germany, with its guest-workers, avoided all that. And as the rocker Morrisey recently said, Germany still seems like Germany.

@Gil

Why is it that libertarians always whinge about immigration laws 'preventing cooperation', 'interfering with voluntary exchange' , etc. No one is holding a gun to your head to keep you in this country. If you want to hire Mexican/Chinese/Polish labor , just go to those countries. No, the cheap labor employers is actually a free-rider. He wants the benefits of the society build up by previous generations, as well as the cultural meta market supporting his activities, but wants to ignore the very laws that make that stable society possible.

Megan -

What weight do you give to the benefits to other countries from having guest workers come here legally, learn about our system, and then return home legally with their savings? While they're here legally they would have legal protections (much less likely to get raped on the way, held prisoner while their family is hit up for more money than promised, etc.). They can learn about a relatively functional society and system of government, and take that knowledge back.

What we have now is like the UN with all its corruption - it allows people from the third world to think that rules are routinely ignored in the US and that our system is just as tilted and biased as all the others, and thus that there's no need to try to change at home. It confirms their prior belief (hope?) that corruption does not inhibit economic growth.

Perhaps I'm only reflecting my personal bias, but I taught at a university in Hong Kong for several years and greatly benefited from the experience of living in another country. I think that Hong Kong also benefited from having "guest workers", including both expats like myself and the many Filipino and Thai domestic helpers. If immigrants that came to the US didn't have to hide and operate illegally, they could get more routine help and these transaction costs that you cite wouldn't have to be huge. They certainly weren't for the domestic helper system in Hong Kong - have you studied it?

I'm one of the people that you've called racist hypocrits in the past because I strongly object to illegal immigration simply on the basis that it's illegal. But why did the people of Hong Kong, a little island with no natural resources except a deep harbor, thrive while so many others in southern China and southeast Asia were deep in poverty? There are many factors, but one big one is that the British gave Hong Kong the rule of law. My experience living in Asia and comparing countries there has given me a deep respect for the rule of law. Allowing millions of people to more or less openly live and work here illegally for long periods of time is bound to have an effect on the system and on attitudes, and that worries me.

I think that we should expand both legal immigration and guest worker programs, since both are good for our country and for the world. Illegal immigration is dangerous for those who come here, makes it harder for them to maintain ties with their home, and perverts our system.

People who compare 19th Century immigration policies with amnesty for illegals always "forget" to mention that there was no welfare state in the 19th Century. ... Unlimited immigration coupled with the welfare state is simply abuse of the native-born population...Those who want open borders can damn well pay for them )(yeah, I'm looking at you, Jasper, Geoff and David)...

MaryJ: I certainly want open borders. I think most reasonable people do. Next time you try to fly to the Caribbean for a vacation, would you like to be told upon arrival at the airport that your flight can't take off, because the government has closed the border? Do you think it's a bad thing that a nice family from Vancouver is allowed to drive down to San Francisco to see the sights? Travel, tourism and trade all require open borders. It is police states that maintain closed borders.

As for immigration, I do not "forget" the non-existence of the welfare state in the 19th century. I agree its existence now creates barriers to a 19th century-style laissez-faire immigration regime. That's one reason I don't support unlimited immigration. I simply think the niggardly limits we put on immigration with current policy are unworkable, infeasible, and counterproductive. There are 12-15 million "pieces of evidence" demonstrating that I'm correct.

Jasper: If you want more immigration from the Third World, then YOU pay for it. I don't want to pay for the importation of more poverty, social conflicts, etc. into my country. What could be more "libertarian" than expecting the open borders advocates to bear the burden of their own political agenda? Let the libertarians pay for their grand social experimentation themselves -- those of us who can see the problems that mass immigration causes, shouldn't have to pay for the "privilege" of seeing our sociaties destroyed. Seems fair to me.

No, the cheap labor employers is actually a free-rider. He wants the benefits of the society build up by previous generations, as well as the cultural meta market supporting his activities, but wants to ignore the very laws that make that stable society possible.

Excellent comments, Mitchell. The open-borders "liberatarians" aren't really libertarian at all, because they want middle-class American taxpayers to subsidize their "voluntary labor exchanges" and "cooperation." Let them pay for it all out of their own pockets, not ours. And that means everything -- housing, food subsidies, public education through college, depreciation of the public infrastructure (roads, sewers, lighting, highways, bridges, ferries, public utilities, water plants) that would be stressed by their mass immigration pipe dreams. Of course they always seem to disappear from the conversation when payment is brought up. . .

I'm still here and I think that the payment issue is a terrible argument against immigration.

If we have foolish public policies and services that are strained by new people, the thing to do is to limit or remove or fix those policies; not inhibit people's liberty. Do you think we should control everybody's personal choices that can affect their health, because we have some subsidized health care?

Should we outlaw having children (or limit the legal number), as well, since this also introduces new people who may use subsidized services without paying their share? It's just another border. How dare people bring newcomers into our society without getting our permission first!

Damn Freeloaders!

Focus on the problematic policies. If we can't afford them, then fix them (which to me means eliminate them, but it could involve smarter financing and other adjustments). Don't use them as an excuse to prevent people from trying to peacefully improve their lives.

"I'm old enough to remember news stories about crowds of irate Midwesterners sledge-hammering Toyotas as a form of protest. That, too, passed."

Yeah, it did pass. As did the prospect of landing a $30 per hour UAW job building cars. The UAW is half the size it was back then, and the next auto plant in the Midwest -- the one Honda is building in southern Indiana -- will offer non-union jobs starting at $15 per hour. So maybe those Midwesterners had a rational, self-interested reason to be irate?

That's really an inversion of the situation with illegal immigration though. In the case of auto imports, a utilitarian calculus would favor them: most of us are better off with access to high-quality imported cars, and the high-quality domestic cars spurred by competition with those imports -- even if a relative handful of autoworkers is worse off.

With illegal immigration, a relative handful of us is better off (restaurateurs, ranch owners, Democratic Party vote hustlers) and the majority of us is worse off (lower wages for millions of unskilled Americans, decline of social cohesion, strain on infrastructure, emergency rooms, schools, government budgets, etc.).

Why is it that libertarians always whinge about immigration laws 'preventing cooperation', 'interfering with voluntary exchange' , etc.
Because immigration laws prevent cooperation and interfere with voluntary exchange. Duh. I would think even the slowest person could work that out.
No one is holding a gun to your head to keep you in this country. If you want to hire Mexican/Chinese/Polish labor , just go to those countries.
Well, perhaps, but libertarians don't view "If you don't like laws which limit your freedom, then you should leave" as a legitimate response.
No, the cheap labor employers is actually a free-rider. He wants the benefits of the society build up by previous generations, as well as the cultural meta market supporting his activities, but wants to ignore the very laws that make that stable society possible.
Well, obviously, libertarians don't believe that immigration laws are "the very laws that make that stable society possible." And that wouldn't be "free riding" anyway.

David Nieporent, any chance you are related to the restaurateur Drew Nieporent?

Fred: yes.

You can feel certain that all Nieporents in the U.S. are related. (Probably also many of those who spell the name differently, but I haven't been able to confirm that yet.)

Drew's my second cousin, once-removed.

Gil: If we have foolish public policies and services that are strained by new people, the thing to do is to limit or remove or fix those policies; not inhibit people's liberty.

And how are "we" going to do that, when at the same time, we import millions of new voters who have a vested interest in voting for a huge welfare state? Do you think your millions of new "cheap" Third world voters will vote for fiscal conservatives and limited government? Do you think that the dishwasher from Oaxaca working under the table for $3 an hour reads Von Hayek and Rand?

Also, where's the comments about paying for social services for the "cheap" labor? I noticed that neither you nor your "libertarian" cohorts are speaking out in favor of my very sensible, "libertarian" proposal: you can have all the cheap labor you want, just pay for it all yourselves. All of it: housing, food subsidies, increased policing and prison incarceration, "free" education for the anchor babies, strain on public infrastructure, etc. What you want is not "libertarianism" because you expect public funds to subsidize your "cheap" labor. You and Nieporent should be ashamed to even call yourselves "libertarian" -- because you aren't. You want state subsidies for your libertarian utopia. Doesn't work that way, dudes.

I always find the talismanic repetition of "illegal" by the anti-immigrationists highly amusing.

I think those opposed to illegal immigration find it less than amusing to have to keep hammering the point until folks get it.

MaryJ:

Well, it's my understanding that these people are already paying for more than they're using (through sales taxes, gas taxes, property taxes reflected in rents, etc.). If they become "legal", they'll be subject to even more taxes.

Libertarians are against many of the subsidized services that you're asking for them to pay for. You should take your complaints to people who favor them.

The problem of bad voters is real, and isn't limited to those from the third world (although it does correlate somewhat with low education). There's no easy solution to this at present. But, I don't think that justifies supporting bad policies ourselves. We should be advocating better ones and explaining why they're better.

If you want more immigration from the Third World, then YOU pay for it. I don't want to pay for the importation of more poverty, social conflicts, etc. into my country.

MaryJ: I'm agnostic on the question of how much more or less immigration "from the Third World" is desirable. I'm inclined to suspect the numbers we're getting now are working well, as they're basically a response to market forces, and letting the market do its thing is typically better -- from a cost benefit perspective -- than trying to stop it. I just wish we had the good sense as a nation to allow a much higher percentage of that Third World immigration to be legal. I much prefer prudently regulated legal markets to black ones. Unfortunately there are millions of people in America knows as "Restrictionists" who evidently prefer the former.

With illegal immigration, a relative handful of us is better off (restaurateurs, ranch owners, Democratic Party vote hustlers) and the majority of us is worse off (lower wages for millions of unskilled Americans, decline of social cohesion, strain on infrastructure, emergency rooms, schools, government budgets, etc.).

Fred: Can you make such arguments with a straight face? The fact is, the country is easily absorbing the recent inflows of immigration. That shouldn't be surprising, as our current net rate of immigation (around .5% annually) is modest by historical standards. (it approached a rate nearly three times our current figure in the early years of the 20th century, and almost certainly still higher in some of the peak years in the middle of the 19th century). Anyway, the country seems to be none the worse as a result of the "mass" immigration of recent years. Both economic and social indexes mostly look better. As The Economist put it (http://www.economist.com/world/na/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10328926): recently:

Both violent crime and property crime have declined dramatically since 1973. New York City will probably notch up less than 500 murders this year, the lowest since the early 1960s (the figure for 1990 was 2,262). Teenagers are cleaning up their act. Teenage drug use has fallen by 23% overall since the 1990s, and by 50% for LSD and ecstasy. Teens are drinking less, smoking less, having sex less and dropping out of school less. The birth rate for 15-19-year-olds has fallen by 35% since 1991. At 10%, the high-school drop-out rate is at a 30-year low. Welfare reform is working. The welfare caseload has dropped by 60% since 1994. A series of social evils—overall poverty, child poverty, child hunger—have all decreased. Employment figures for single mothers have surged. The number of abortions fell from over 1.6m in 1990 to fewer than 1.3m this year. The divorce rate is at its lowest level since 1970. Education scores are up.

There simply is no immigration crisis. Just a whole lot of hollerin' about people with dark complexions and smelly food who are helping to build the country with their sweat and their smarts, just as millions did before. Only this time they're doing so in much smaller numbers, proportionally, than during previous eras.

Someone tell me this post is a joke. McArdle and Howley know absolutely nothing about this issue and are at about the same level as people who've memorized part of a sports book but who have never played the game.

McArdle's "economics" continually fails to note non-financial costs, such as giving foreign governments PoliticalPower inside the U.S.

The MexicanGovernment has even explicitly stated that they're going to be using U.S. nonprofits to push their agenda inside the U.S., and they already have direct or indirect links to several well-known groups like the ACLU, SPLC, and AFSC.

Let me know when McArdle puts that and everything else she's ignorant of into her model. Until then you can't trust anything she writes on this issue.

And how are "we" going to do that, when at the same time, we import millions of new voters who have a vested interest in voting for a huge welfare state?
You do realize that immigrants, legal or otherwise, don't get to vote, right?
Also, where's the comments about paying for social services for the "cheap" labor?
It's a really really stupid question, which you should stop repeating because it just showcases your ignorance: libertarians aren't in favor of "social services".


The MexicanGovernment has even explicitly stated that they're going to be using U.S. nonprofits to push their agenda inside the U.S., and they already have direct or indirect links to several well-known groups like the ACLU, SPLC, and AFSC.
Oh. My. God. They're trying to... participate in the public debate! Horrors! We must cover our ears! We might be contaminated by Mexican Cooties if we hear what they say!

Fred: Can you make such arguments with a straight face?

Sure he can. And your stats showing that "economic and social indexes mostly look better" doesn't mean much by itself because we don't know what these might have been without the immigration issues.

And your stats showing that "economic and social indexes mostly look better" doesn't mean much by itself...

Sure they "mean something" all by themselves. They're evidence that the moderate levels of immigration the country's been receiving the last several decades haven't been harmful.

They're evidence that the moderate levels of immigration the country's been receiving the last several decades haven't been harmful.

They don't say anything about immigration.

You're saying the economy is at point X, and since X is good then immigration isn't harmful.

I'm saying the economy is at point X, and since we don't know that it wouldn't have been at X+1 (or X-1) without the immigration, we can't make any assertions about the immigration's effects with only that data.

They don't say anything about immigration.

Sure they do. The data represent information about a country that has seen increased immigration -- the very thing that opponents of immigration say is extremely harmful. It stands to reason that if said critics were correct, the data would point to a deteriorating socioeconomic situation. I mean, as far as I can tell, the argument of the restrictionists hasn't been "Well, conditions in America are quite good compared to what they were thirty or forty years ago, but they'd be much better if we could only reduce immigration." On the contrary, the arguments of the restrictionists tend to paint the dangers of "mass" immigration in the most dire terms, with references to social dislocation, economic decline, and grave dangers to US sovereignty and cultural cohesion. That paints a very different picture from the reality I see all around me. When I see bullshit, I call it.

...since we don't know that it wouldn't have been at X+1 (or X-1) without the immigration, we can't make any assertions about the immigration's effects with only that data.

But since we do know what the economy and social conditions are like with the immigration, we can and I do make such assertions. Your lack of an alternative universe with which to test your theories hardly compels those of us who support immigration to refrain from making common sense arguments.

They don't say anything about immigration.


You're saying the economy is at point X, and since X is good then immigration isn't harmful.

I'm saying the economy is at point X, and since we don't know that it wouldn't have been at X+1 (or X-1) without the immigration, we can't make any assertions about the immigration's effects with only that data.

No. He's saying the economy used to be at X, but now is at point X+5. No, we don't know that it wouldn't have been at X+10 without immigration, but the claim of immigration opponents isn't that immigration slows our growth; the claim of immigration opponents is that immigration causes us to go from X to X-5. And we know that's false, because we're getting better, not worse.

Megan, your equations treat Wa (the welfare of American citizens, I assume) as a constant, but it's not. Legal immigration does affect it (negatively or positively depending on the immigrants), and it seems likely that illegal immigration and guest workers have a stronger effect.

To the transnational sleaze that supports MassiveImmigration simply because there's money to be made, I guess there isn't a problem with possible ForeignAgents agitating foreign citizens inside our country, and the media not disclosing their links. And, despite the ForeignAgentsRegistrationAct and the reasons why it was created and is still around, those types also don't have a problem with foreign countries spreading prop inside the U.S.

That type also doesn't realize that everyone in the U.S. - whether citizen or not - has some form of PoliticalPower. For instance, even IllegalAliens have PoliticalPower, due to the fact that some people represent them (like GilCedillo) and they have to be figured into political calculations.

As for what libertarians are or aren't in favor of, it seems to be CorporateWelfare. They consistently refuse to tie MassiveImmigration to an end of social services and as a result the MassiveImmigration is a massive CorporateSubsidy. Not only is libertarianism a childlike ideology, most of its adherents can't figure out that they're basically tools for for those who are basically crooks.

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