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Ron Paul on taxes

28 Dec 2007 11:42 am

A number of readers want me to really dive into Ron Paul's economic policies and explain why I don't like them. Okay, here goes. First up: one of the main areas in which I am supposed to agree with Dr. Paul. That is to say, taxes.

Most of Dr. Paul's supporters like the fact that he wants to cut taxes. I like the fact that he wants to cut taxes. But how he plans to cut taxes is not so good. In fact, it's pretty bad.

His website is full of talk about eliminating the income tax, which is not going to happen. His more realistic plans consist mostly of about eighty zillion tax credits, either to replace existing government spending, or to make a warm gesture towards interest groups Dr. Paul thinks are swell, like senior citizens and people serving in the active duty military.

Item one: there is no good reason to replace spending with tax credits. Economically, they are indistinguishable from spending, except that they add all sorts of ugly behavioral inefficiencies.

Item two: they are regressive. Dr. Paul has several plans to replace spending programs with tax credits, which would represent a massive fiscal redistribution away from people who can't do much with a $15,000 tax credit because they do not have $15,000 worth of taxable income.

Item three: tax credits are economically inefficient, for reasons that I once laid out at great length here.

Item four: tax credits are economically distortionary; they either pay people to do things that they were going to do anyway, or they encourage people to do things that won't pay for themselves.

Item five: tax credits are much beloved of politicians because they sound magically different from spending, which allows them to distribute goodies to their supporters. If nothing else, this should make any libertarian shudder at the thought of tax credits.

And how will he pay for this tax cuttery? Megan's First Fiscal Law: spending is taxation. Economically, it doesn't seem to make much difference whether you finance that spending with taxation or debt; both exert some economic drag, though the mechanisms are different. If you want to cut taxes, you have to cut spending.

Actually, Dr Paul says he agrees with this. So how come his website and collected "issues" writing reveal no major cuts to any programs except his scheme to eliminate the department of education? I mean, I'm all for getting rid of the School Nannies. But observe, please, this graph which I am shamelessly ripping off of Marginal Revolution:

Spending_3 Note, please the category "everything else" which comprises under 17% of the budget. The Department of Education disappears into there, along with transportation, farm subsidies, and everything that is not entitlement spending, defense, and interest on the national debt.

Perhaps he is planning to slash military spending? But then who is going to perform all this border enforcement? And I don't actually see where he's planning to make the military smaller; he's just planning to keep them home. Iraq is expensive, but it's not expensive enough to pay for the kind of tax cuttery he's proposing. You'd have to cut the defense budget by a third to produce a 5% reduction in the overall budget.

Entitlements are by far the largest part of our budget; if you're serious about cutting spending, you need to get serious about attacking entitlements. But Dr. Paul makes no mention of slashing Social Security, Medicare, or Medicaid, and for good reason: the senior lobby would slaughter him. In fact, he's not only going to leave Social Security benefits intact, but also, he's planning to eliminate taxation of Social Security benefits. His plan for dealing with the entitlement problem seems to consist of saying that we should keep the federal government from spending the "trust funds". Okay, Dr.; into what financial assets should the government invest this trust funds, and what taxes will you raise, or spending will you cut, in order to plug the several-hundred-billion-dollar hole this will open in the general fund?

Nor are seniors the only ones he plans to cut taxes on. His ideas include no taxes for active duty military, tax credits for health care, tax credits for paying property taxes . . . apparently, the only people Dr. Paul thinks should pay taxes are, well, me, a young urban worker who doesn't own a home.

He promises to veto new spending. But new discretionary spending is simply not the major driver of our budget. The major driver of our budget is entitlements, which will grow unchecked even if he, and Congress, adjourn to play golf for the next eight years. This is not economically serious, fiscally responsible policy; in fact, it's just another variant on what everyone else is doing, which is ignoring the entitlement programs that are about to turn into the sucking chest wound of the US budget.

Finally, he sells his fiscal policy with completely unnecessary, not to mention factually deceptive, immigrant-and-trade bashing. His brief on the Import-Export Bank, an FDR-era boondoggle of trivial significance to anything, including the US taxpayer, is positioned as a complaint that we are massively subsidizing China. In fact, the subsidy is tiny, and it's not aimed at foreigners. We lend poor credit risks in other countries money to buy US goods; it's an export subsidy, and a particularly stupid one that should be eliminated--without gratuitous fearmongering about China.

Similarly, he attacks the Social Security Administration's plan for a "totalization" agreement with Mexico, claiming that it will result in the American taxpayer, suddenly and for no apparent reason, sending a ton of money to Mexicans who work here for a little while and then go back to Mexico in order to loll around in the sun collecting their Social Security checks.

This sounds ludicrous because it's a gross distortion. Totalization agreements are standard practice between countries with social security systems; they prevent people who are working abroad, but planning to retire in their own country, from having to make contributions to two systems. We have totalization agreements with any number of countries, and the actuaries at the SSA expect that the agreement with Mexico will have little impact either way on the trust funds. Indeed, the agreement with Mexico will cost us much less than our agreement with that nation of mooching scabs, the Canadians.

In short, I do not look at this list of proposals and see a bold iconoclast who finally dares to transcend politics, fearlessly doing what needs to be done and speaking truth to power. I see a politician telling his supporters what they want to hear, which is that they deserve to pay lower taxes, but not to have any program that is important to them slashed. I see him scoring cheap campaign points off of American hostility to foreigners, particularly poor foreigners who compete with them economically. And I see him, like everyone else, dodging the major fiscal challenge of our time: the problem of paying for the health care and pensions of the retiring baby boomers.

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Comments (297)

If that's what you hear, you are deaf.

Perhaps instead of discussing how tax cuts and spending are economically indistinuishable, how about discuss why taxes violate the right to your life?

I get it. Andrew is in England for the Holidays. So they stuck you in his slot to try and keep the traffic up. bla bla bla

"His website is full of talk about eliminating the income tax, which is not going to happen."

UMMMMM...if you actually did your homework and studied the laws you would find that most private sector workers do not have to pay income taxes ANYWAY. The IRS is a farce.

Proof: http://www.losthorizons.com/

The rest of your article shows how little you understand economics. You do NOT have a right to health care or ANY entitlements from government as government produces NOTHING but steals it from the producers like me.

http://www.ronpaulforpresident2008.com/

"His website is full of talk about eliminating the income tax, which is not going to happen."

You lost me here at the ninth sentence. I read the rest of your piece with a jaundiced eye afterwards.

With Dr. Paul in the bully pulpit, repealing the tyrannical 16th Amendment would be a distinct possibility as well as getting rid of the parasitical Federal Reserve. The result would be that we keep a majority of the fruits of our labors rather than giving them to the IRS and other bloodsuckers. The hidden tax of inflation (which the Fed ultimately controls no matter what prevarications and hey-prestos! with which they attempt to flim-flam us) would result in money that was an honest measure of worth rather than an instrument of debt that decreases in value with every year.

Not putting Ron Paul in the bully pulpit and sticking an Obama or a Huckabee in his place would result in more of the same and most likely worse.

So go ahead and keep telling yourself that your chains are there for a reason. I don't have time for it myself.

A "conservative" is a draft animal that claims we must wear our yokes more or less as they're placed on us. A "liberal" is a draft animal that claims we have a right to shift the yokes from time to time. An "extremist" is someone that asks, "Why wear a yoke and haul someone else's carriage?" link

Ron Paul acolytes demand substantive critiques. Whenever they get one, they say "do your homework" and accuse people of not knowing the facts, or not knowing economics, or whatever their area of expertise is. Then they go back to demanding substantive critiques.

And what's up with all the pro-Paul posting that starts of "As Dr. Paul has correctly and factually stated" or something to that effect? Does he also have a little red book that you carry around with you?

Baby Boomer Pensions ... give me a break. It's too bad one depends on the votes of so many Baby Boomers who feel the government owes them what they failed to save themselves.

"Perhaps he is planning to slash military spending?"

Now that's gross ignorance on your part. Have you even bothered googling Ron Paul's positions? Know your enemy well before you attack. All your flailing just shows how confused you really are.

"The rest of your article shows how little you understand economics. You do NOT have a right to health care or ANY entitlements from government as government produces NOTHING but steals it from the producers like me."

She never said she had the right to those entitlements. She's noting your beloved Dr. Paul is not going to do ANYTHING about eliminating the entitlements you hate so much.

You say that the income tax will never go away under a Paul administration, but they also say that there will never be a Paul administration. Fact of the matter is that if Ron wins the presidency the congress will be forced to push through some of his reforms, that is if they want to be re-elected two years later.

Paul would slash spending on our foreign policy which would save enough money to save social security and Medicare for those dependent and allow young people to opt out. He wants to get rid of unnecessary departments again cutting federal spending.

The states may raise taxes when/if we return to a constituionally sized government. But that opens up competition between the states. The way it should be.

"Iraq is expensive, but it's not expensive enough to pay for the kind of tax cuttery he's proposing."

You are living in a fantasy land. There are something like 150,000 mercenaries in Iraq being paid by our tax dollar beyond the cost of the US military there. Haliburton charges $96 per load of laundry washed for our troops there who are directed to use this service instead of doing their own laundry. This is only the tip of the iceberg.

Enough I say! Too much stealing from the American taxpayer to finance Haliburton, Exxon, and others making obscene profits off the blood of Iraqis and our brave troops on the ground there.

Megan,

I apologise for the snarky tone of the some of the RP supporters above.

But here's one significant counter to your post: Paul has promised, repeatedly, to push to allow citizens to 'opt out' of social security/ medicare taxes.

I think its pretty safe to say there will be a massive exodus out of the welfare state by younger, more productive citizens. It should be safe to call that a reduction of future liabilities by a few hundred billion?

Moreover, the Laffer curve is still not exhausted at this point. Significant tax cuts (like eliminating the dividend and capital gains taxes) should provide substantial net INCREASES in alternate tax revenues, more than enough to cover their loss of revenue.

What are your thoughts?

- R

"Paul would slash spending on our foreign policy which would save enough money to save social security and Medicare for those dependent and allow young people to opt out. He wants to get rid of unnecessary departments again cutting federal spending."

Uhh...I'd love to see your numbers, you know, to refute Megan's.

Anthony Cantor said: "accuse people of not knowing the facts, or not knowing economics"

It's not an accusation. It's a fact. For instance, most Americans have no idea that Robert L. Owen, one of the major legislative forces behind the creation of the Federal Reserve (he was half of the Owen-Glass Federal Reserve Act of 1913) later realized that he'd been scammed and spent the rest of his life fighting the monster he'd helped to create. He even wrote the foreword to Gertrude Coogan's 1934 book "The Mysterious Moneychangers" reproduced below:


"It gives me special pleasure to have the opportunity to explain the principles and purposes of this book, written by Miss Gertrude M. Coogan of Chicago.

The facts that Miss Coogan was awarded a Master's Degree in Economics and Finance by Northwestern University; was for eight years a Security Analyst for The Northern Trust Company of Chicago; that from the beginning she had a deep desire to understand the fancied enigma of money, have given her great insight into monetary science.

The basic principles of monetary science are simple. Knowledge of the science has been made difficult by those who have converted these simple principles into an enigma. They have done so with ponderous volumes written on prices and on the processes of production, transportation, distribution and allied topics; weaving into the subject matter deceptive terms so that the public has been grossly misled by the use of words which contain accepted false premises.

...

The purpose of this book is to bring before the American people the knowledge that they must have regarding the nature and manipulations of their money system. In my opinion, America faces a crisis which may result in the loss of our Representative Constitutional Government unless every man and woman, rich or poor, young or old; doctor, lawyer, merchant laborer, educator, clergyman, social worker, society leader; will bestir himself or herself toward the problem of bringing the fundamental truths of monetary science to every fireside.

It is time for intelligent Americans to examine their money system .... Those who own insurance policies and savings accounts must bestir themselves to protect those accumulations. ...

... The truths themselves are very simple, but many of the newspapers and publishing companies allow themselves to be used to carry misinformation to the American public, while neglecting to print the truths. Honest money principles are understandable to every one when the money subject is presented in its true light. É

It required the assistance of every loyal American to help win the World War. In my opinion, the American people have more at stake today than they had at the time of the World War.É I believe the future of our nation and the principles for which it has stood, were less in jeopardy then than they are today. ...

The solution of the problem to protect our homes does not rest with a few leaders in a distant city. It is necessary that every man and woman appoint himself and herself a leader. Honest Money Groups must be formed in every block, in every precinct throughout the United States, and in every rural community. The rural community centers and schoolhouses can be most profitably employed this winter in showing the American farmers how simply they can solve all of their own problems. Their grave troubles have been caused not by overproduction, but by money manipulations frequently executed upon foreign advice and to harmonize with foreign "policies." The result has been the extraction of dollars of a distorted purchasing power from the American farmer. Collecting dollars of such unfair purchasing power has deprived many American farmers of their homes, and all farmers of their share in the industrial products which this nation is so well equipped to manufacture and distribute.

The principal reason for endorsing this book is that I feel it is an intelligent vehicle for the dissemination of the truths which must be understood in every home ....

... I am glad to commend it; to give the book my blessings in its principles and purposes ... It contains scientific truths -- not quackery.

...

This writer is informed. The information is sound. ... it is written in an attractive way with an engaging style, and it conveys to the American people truths of the very first magnitude.

When these truths are known, and the American people demand their constitutional right of an honest money system, this country will enter upon an era of material and physical prosperity; of opportunity, and spiritual and cultural advancement that will not only charm and delight its own people but will become a model for the rest of the human race."

Robert L. Owen
New York City
October 29, 1934

---

If one of the accomplices of the Federal Reserve could admit to his mistake, I don't see why we can't either.

Your comments on tax credits vs. spending fail to take into account the morality of tax credits vs. spending. Spending requires stealing money from one taxpayer and giving it to another. A tax credit simply allows the holder of the credit to keep more of his or her money. It doesn't take anything from anyone. This is probably one reason Dr. Paul supports them. Efficiency isn't the only argument one can make. Mussolini made the trains run on time. Dr. Paul is the only candidate who has brings morality into these discussions -- not a religious morality, but a morality based on natural law, i.e, it's wrong to steal from one person and give to another.

Ron Paul is the only politician who brings authenticity, honesty, and integrity into the presidential race. To see a hilarious satire on the president, the mainstream media, and the war on terror see this YouTube music video from the international award-winning zombie musical feature film, "Song of the Dead." It features horror movie veteran, Reggie Bannister (Phantasm, Wishmaster, Bubba Ho-tep) as the President of the U.S. The filmmaker, Chip Gubera, is giving a share of his profits from DVD sales to the Ron Paul campaign. Go to:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qQmkkoxSKYw

Megan has made a valiant attempt to defend income taxes, even though her logic is very weird. It amazes me how complicated people tend to make things.

I have always found that Austrian Economics can simply explain the way things are, but other theories (such as Keynesian economics and Megan's Fiscal Laws) make things appear convoluted. Perhaps those theories are formed with good intentions to defend popular trends, but they always end up resulting in some transient conclusions such as "spending is taxation" and "Tax cuts = Bad."

This article was not even a fair criticism of what Dr. Paul represents. He wants to abolish the IRS and the federal income tax, not just "reduce taxes" as Megan implied.

Nice try, but you cannot persuade me that taxes are the best use of my money. Thanks Ron, for standing for me!

"She never said she had the right to those entitlements. She's noting your beloved Dr. Paul is not going to do ANYTHING about eliminating the entitlements you hate so much."

Oh Really? How does letting people opt out and begin the process of reversing these socialistic, take care of me programs, not qualify as "anything"?

Are you saying because he will not leave millions of seniors, who were duped into trusting a treasonous socialistic government, out in the cold at the stroke of a pen that he will not do "anything"? He has got it right. Support the seniors and transition the newer generations off the system.

http://www.ronpaulforpresident2008.com/

With respect to the red book dig, you must understand the passion that a typical Ron Paul supporter has comes from intellectually understanding that, indeed, the Federal income tax is unnecessary, burdensome, and, in most cases, illegally implemented.

Once you have done some research (The Creature From Jekylle Island, copy and paste link below http://www.realityzone.com/creature.html also read this http://www.devvy.com/notax.html) and come to the above mentioned conclusions, it becomes very difficult not to become a red book carrying, red underwear wearing (Mormon reference), Kool Aide drinking sounding Ron Paul supporter. It is very very difficult to get out of your head that the Federal Reserve is illegal and responsible for ALL of the boom bust cycles that have caused trillions of dollars of wealth transference from the low and middle class to the wealthy and is virtually ensuring the elimination of the middle class, it is very difficult to get out of your head that the Federal Reserve is privately held corporation with majority share holders that reside in and make National policy for other countries (Germany), and it is very difficult to get out of your head that you have been lied to for so very many years.

There is not another candidate that articulates so clearly the cures for all of the ills that have been caused by Central Banking and Big Government. There is not another candidate who is not in bed with and bought and paid for by the afore mentioned parasites. So, if you like the status quo at the least and if you want more, and I mean A LOT MORE of the same, vote for anyone else, because you will get it. If you know in your heart and soul that something is wrong and that something is afoul in these great United States, then read a few of the articles that have been posted by some of the Ron Paul supporters on this site....we will save some Kool Aid for you.

"And I see him, like everyone else, dodging the major fiscal challenge of our time: the problem of paying for the health care and pensions of the retiring baby boomers."
Thompson repeatedly brought this up in the Republican debates.

You miss the point entirely. Let me paraphrase something that Ron said once.

Income tax is the most insidious of taxes because it basically assumes that the government owns all that you earn and they allow you to keep a portion of it.

Did you know that the 16th amendment was passed during the Christmas break and was not fully ratified but was passed off as law anyway? The 16th shouldn't have been law anyway let alone income taxes and the IRS. Please tell me that you are making a tax argument based on fact and that you were aware of this already. Honestly I'm not sure if you are a qualified economist or not but I'm wondering exactly who cares about your opinion when faced with fact.

Ron Paul is an accomplished economist and has more than one book on the subject. Additionally he is an distinguished member of the Mises Institute. If you're not familiar, you may want to Google it.

Dive into that a little please.

Additionally Ron Paul has stated that complete abolishment of income taxes would put the US on a budget that we had 10 years ago. 10 YEARS AGO. Not 1913, not 1776,but 1997. I don't see that as revolutionary, I don't see that as unachievable. In 1997 the world didn't come crashing down on our heads.

As things stand today you can clearly see that social security is by far the number one bill that has to be paid. What if we weren't spending 600Bn on the war effort and the 700 bases in 130 countries? Would the Gov't have to "borrow" from social security to begin with? Who knows. But on the subject of bases in other countries, why do we have bases in the Great Britan, Japan, Germany?
I mean come on these people don't need or probably even want our bases, our military men, or our governments big nose in their business anyway. How long ago was WWII? How long ago Was Vietnam? Really? over 30 years for both? Do they really need us there? Do we need to give these countries money for no reason at all? Why are we still there. How does a base in Japan protect me? are we under threat of a Japanese invasion? I haven't heard from Germany for a while. The wall is down over there, they haven't really been involved any wars on America that I know of. Why does my tax dollar go to a base in a peaceful country? Why do we have bases in other countries to begin with. Russia doesn't have a base here, Japan doesnt have a base here, the Brits don't have a base here.
Why is ok to have a base in those countries? How come it's one sided if they are our allies? I mean shouldn't they be allowed to have a base here to help protect us just as we help protect them? Why don't they?

I guess your readers really care about your opinion but since you aren't running the country, and you clearly haven't studied your subject matter, I think your readers will read what you have to say here and decide that you have taken time from them they will never get back. And if they are smart. They won't let you steal from them again.

side note:
If you're getting confused why not do your own research on the man. Here's a start
http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Ron_Paul

Unlike the other candidates, he's pretty consistent and transparent, so it's easier to see where he really stands..

You could have saved yourself some time if you just posted "Hi, I don't understand what Ron Paul says" because that's essentially what you've said anyways.

"Oh Really? How does letting people opt out and begin the process of reversing these socialistic, take care of me programs, not qualify as "anything"?"

Maybe because that isn't actually eliminating it? Have you ever considered that the reason Social Security is the 'third rail' of American politics, is because people LIKE getting social security payments? How are you supposed to know how many people will opt out? Not everybody is a Ron Paul supporter who abhors taxes and entitlement programs.

"Are you saying because he will not leave millions of seniors, who were duped into trusting a treasonous socialistic government, out in the cold at the stroke of a pen that he will not do "anything"? He has got it right. Support the seniors and transition the newer generations off the system."

No, I'm not, but I appreciate the strawman and the implied moral disdain. Ron Paul's plan to 'transition' rests on the fallacious idea that we can support the retiring baby boomers even if all the younger people 'opted out' of the Social Security system. There simply is not enough money in the 'trust fund' so that LESS people can pay into the system but MORE people can take money out of it. Even if people WEREN'T opting out, this would still be the case!

Social Security needs MORE money to support those "millions of seniors" who are or will soon be living off of Social Security checks. You will not be able to keep benefits at current levels for MORE people if you REDUCE the amount of money Social Security has by allowing people to opt out. Ron Paul's plan would be lovely if this weren't the case.

Jamie's post should open, the more considerate of us, to the idea that much of what passes for 'History' isn't always the whole story.

I think that's the main reason that many RP supporters are oft heard advising: "Do your own Homework". Truly, it'd be much simpler if we were handed a 5-min YouTube of everything we need to know, but, such is not.

Patrick Henry had it right: "The price of Liberty is eternal Vigilance."

We can either pay that price, or bear the cost of our own enslavement. It has ever been such.

MM, btw, good to see you actually put some effort forth..

why do we have bases in the Great Britan, Japan, Germany?

I said this in the last RP thread, but why no repeat myself?

1) restraining the imperial ambitions of China and Russia, thereby

2) limiting the need for Germany and Japan to re-arm, thereby

3) limiting the need for other countries in those regions to re-arm, thereby

4) preserving the peace of the world.

Maybe that's not a good enough reason for you, but it certainly is a reason.

"Have you ever considered that the reason Social Security is the 'third rail' of American politics, is because people LIKE getting social security payments?"

It's the third rail because people hate to admit, with every fiber of their being, that they've been hoodwinked.

I do all I can to keep my money from ever entering the ponzi scheme in the first place. Social Security is a sucker's game.

"restraining the imperial ambitions of China and Russia"

And those that attempt to restrain America's imperial ambitions are called what again? Terrorists, that's what. Loyalists to the British Empire used to call their adversaries the same thing.

The age of the American Empire is over, We can't afford it anymore.

Megan,
This is a long post so bear with me. Let me first commend you on your efforts to at least discuss economic policy in more detail. You have to understand that there are a lot of editorials and opinion pieces about Paul that are full of distortions with overt and veiled hostilties. Most of this contradictive arguments could be boiled down to "well...he is a crank, there take that".

Now, with that said there is much you should know economically. First off we are facing record dollar lows, record foreclosures, record debt, record deficts, record war expenditures, recent record inflation (i.e. the wholesale rate), record economic disparity (top wealth vs middle and bottom wealth) on a on. Couple this with statements by Greenspan (we are likely entering a recession), the US comptroller (we are heading for a nationl bankruptcy), and a social security liability of 62 trillion with a trust fund with zippo in it and you can see the daunting task.

Economically we need a MAJOR overhaul. A couple of balanced budgets won't do it. Tax credits that you spend much time discussing won't do it. You have to comprehend the precarious position we are in. Another sobering thought is that if this country is brought to it's knees it won't be by suicide bombers or someone waving a nuke in our face, it will be with briefcases. Why do I say that? Two reasons:

1) Foreign entities hold trillions of US dollars. If they were to dump all thier dollars on the market it would be a huge investment loss for them but would send our economy into a radical tailspin. Unlike any depression we have ever seen. That in one way makes up beholden to foreign interests.

2) They are buying up huge quantities of US assets. The Chinese are investing in financial companies, telecommunications, insurance and others. They just bought a chunk of Bear Stearns. The Saudis are buying up even more real estate and they just bought a chunk of Citibank. With our dollar so low it puts everything on sale. There are special funds set up by foreign govts. and investors called Sovereign Trust Funds. These funds have trillions in them. Instead of dumping a weakening dollar they are using those funds to buy US assets, again at record rates.

The truth is that our kids will soon be less likely to own land and other assets in their country than foreigners. Add on top the colossial debt problem and social security issues and we in essence are hanging them out to dry.

The problem here is that many people can't confront this stuff. It is almost surreal like a bad fiction novel. They have an inability to see what is in front of their face and THAT is what will be our downfall. The question is are you going to continue to defend narrow views or can you confront the big picture?


He has proposed more cuts and voted against more spending than all the other candidates combined.

That's specific enough for me.

MEH said: "much of what passes for 'History' isn't always the whole story."

An adage that I adhere to when studying history is:

"Until we know who owes what to whom we know nothing of history."

Good thing about this article is if I ever get laid off of my janitor position it looks like being a pseudo journalist doesn't have many requirements.....apparently.

I'm also amazed that people can be so lazy that they need a second opinion for some really basic policies. Shameful!

Unfortunately, Jamie, even if you're correct and everybody really agrees with you, then Ron Paul's plan to 'transition' while maintaining benefits for seniors is going to be a failure.

Think about it. If you're a baby boomer or even a bit younger and you have retirement coming up in the next decade or so, you don't have much of an incentive to opt out. After all, you've already paid so much into the system, you're not going to get the taxes you've already paid by opting out. You get some of your money back by staying in the system and collecting SS checks.

The people opting out will be the younger ones, who would be contributing the revenue for these retirees. So perhaps Ron Paul's transition will eliminate Social Security. But if it 'works' and the young opt out, then all those seniors he's trying to 'keep out of the cold' are in deep trouble.

"Ron Paul's plan to 'transition' while maintaining benefits for seniors is going to be a failure."

Not if we dismantle the edifice of Empire that sucks the lifeblood from this economy. The only failure is in letting this choo-choo keep rolling down a bad track. The fact of the matter is that's what coming is going to be hard for everyone. The ride's over.

Personally, I'd give my consent to my money going to the old folks that have been good little sheep for their working lives and have paid into a losing scheme. I no longer give my consent to Empire and to those predators that think they run the show.

Jamie, look at the pie graph in the original post. Defense is less than 17% of spending. Elimination of "Empire" (dude, "do your research" on what a real empire looks and acts like) can't affect more than that much of the budget. And we'll still need armed forces even with no "Empire."

Rob, a good rule of thumb for defense spending is to take what the Feds say they're spending and double it.

That's not even taking into account Donald Rumsfeld's admission of 9/10/01 that there were trillions of dollars unaccounted for:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/29/eveningnews/main325985.shtml

Getting rid of Empire and making the Federal moneyscam transparent as opposed to opaque would make all of our lives better.

I'm beginning to think that people have more of a problem with Ron Paul the man as opposed to his message.

"Ron Paul acolytes demand substantive critiques. Whenever they get one, they say "do your homework" and accuse people of not knowing the facts, or not knowing economics, or whatever their area of expertise is. Then they go back to demanding substantive critiques"

Ron Paul has displayed quite an impressive amount of knowledge on the subjects of government and economics - knowledge that comes from many years of education and experience.

I think the problem people have with critiques like these is that, usually, they are written by people who have much less knowledge and/or experience than he. We are talking about a 72 year-old, ten-term congressman.

I, for one, put my money on the one with the well-known, indisputable credentials, who also has a long track record of honesty and integrity.

Besides, the system needs fixing and Ron Paul is really the only candidate who talks about fixing it. Everyone else tries to avoid the subject and thus, ultimately ignores it.

Critiques like these don't suggest any other changes, they just state that Ron Paul's would be bad. Does this mean they don't even recognize that there is a need for change? If so, Ron Paul's superior credentials are speaking loud and clear, and I say let's give them a chance!

"dude, "do your research" on what a real empire looks and acts like"

Real Empires are run by gluttonous, wasteful, mindless parasites.

Yep. That's us.

Rob, a good rule of thumb for defense spending is to take what the Feds say they're spending and double it.

Hey, good idea? But why stop there? Why not triple, or quadruple it?

With this innovative scheme, we can simply assume enough money in the budget to pay for anything you like! And that is a process that any academic economist could approve of.

Rob, if you wish to engage in sarcasm rather than actually discussing these topics I suggest you look elsewhere.

BTW, can you tell me the name of the Pentagon's CFO during the period of these missing trillions? He'd be a good place to start.

What's not gonna happen is I'm never voting for a warmongering, deficit spending neocon again. Of course, I'm not going to be voting for any Democrat socialists either.

No taxes - No IRS -- Dr. Paul has my vote and your post is way off base...

G Schmidt
Tax attorney

For Megan,

So, did you just not see ANY of the interviews where he ALWAYS says the biggest program he would cut is to bring the troops home?

How can you write so much and miss this?

And the fact that he gets the most flack from the Republicans for his foreign policy completely blows up your commment on him pandering to supporters.

I don't think Ron Paul said he's going to eliminate cooperate tax and cooperate executive payroll tax, its "income tax". In order to eliminate income tax, we need to change our foreign policy and monetary policy. we can easily compensate income tax with user fees, excise tax, import tax etc. which people will have a choice to pay those taxes rather then mandatory tax like "income tax" any other tax is better then "income tax"

First, Please learn how to resize graphics without making them unreadable.

Second, don't say "please so often, please ?

Third social security and medicare ARE NOT entitlements, they are government insurances. I know that we act like it is an entitlement, but there was this bait and switch done by FDR to get people to accept it. Why would you touch an insurance program ? IF my insurance agent did what the government is doing, he'd be in jail.

Now can we cut 30% I'd think you could get 8 % from everything else, 10% from Welfare and unemployment, 8 % from defense, and 5% from medicaid.

This seems like alot but much could be done by making these things more efficient, and less corrupt. Slashing defense by 1/2 could be done just from foreign operations - check Clintons defense budgets.

Jamie, that wasn't so much sarcastic as it was accurate. You are in fact simply assuming available money based upon how much you think the feds are lying. Now, you could be 100% right. But a prudent voter will not pick his presidential candidate based on rank speculation found in blog comments.

Furthermore, just because the Pentagon can't account for its spending doesn't mean that it has the cash stuffed somewhere, ready for us to give to old people.

Real Empires are run by gluttonous, wasteful, mindless parasites.

No, governments are run by gluttonous, wasteful, mindless parasites, aka human beings. Empires involve the subjugation and systematic exploitation of foreign populations, e.g. USSR in eastern Europe, Belgium in the Congo, Spain in South America, China in Tibet, etc. Basing in Germany doesn't come close.

Have you ever heard Ron Paul speak or read one article he's written? The first thing he mentions typically is how he'll start cutting government programs. Of course he's going to cut spending and in the meantime, while there are so many people dependent on the handout, he'll give some tax credits to get them through the transition. Can I have your job? I've done the homework and I think I can describe the economy better than you, but I have limited space in this tiny box.

Okay, I see your paragraph now. I knew it had to be there somewhere.

So, cutting defense by 1/3 or 5% of the national budget is not even worth doing, eh?

So, I guess we give up and go ahead and file for bankruptcy then?

Tax credits:
"they either pay people to do things that they were going to do anyway, or they encourage people to do things that won't pay for themselves."

Of course tax credits are better than spending. First, if I am doing it anyway, that's great, I get a tax cut.

Okay, for those keeping score tax credits 1, Spending zero.

If I wasn't going to do it, that's great too. I get to keep my own money and OF COURSE I pay for it myself. I don't appreciate the gov't interference, and of course it makes me bristle, but at least it is something I am doing for myself and isn't going into the general fund.

The only way that you can claim that I don't pay for it myself is that either (A) I don't really own the money I earn or (B) I'm a free rider on other services and getting more than my fair share. Neither are the case.

errata: I believe "everything else" is 10.7% not 17% in the table.

Do you guys get the homework before or after nap time?

Megan,

You got hammered again, I wish some of Paul's supporters would follow Paul's lead and make their points from a humbler place. That said it does get frustrating to see some of his positions twisted over and over and over.

I thought you made some prescient points but they are trivial in the over all picture of what the revolution is about. Like another poster pointed out once you understand and come to believe through continued research (took me a couple of years) the core deceptions that our government, the fed, taxation system and globalists etc. hide under you can't forget. Armed with the truth, it will never again be OK for me to vote status quo or lesser of two evils.

The Constitution is what We the People need to protect, because it is the only thing protecting us from tyrannical government. It is a shame the public schools failed to instill, the importance of defending the Constitution, to me. Ron Paul has given a great gift to this country by challenging people to research how and why the system works. Most Ron Paul supporters have accepted the challenge, done some research and found things were not as they seemed or were presented. So the skepticism towards the media is very understandable. Once bitten twice shy. The media in this country has been given notice, if they choose not to change their ways they will loose money.

Vote in the republican primary and elect Ron Paul

WRITE ZEROS ON THE HARD DRIVE--->REINSTALL THE CONSTITUTION!

Incredible. First you say you're going to 'dive in' to Ron Paul's economic policies. Then in the first paragraph you dismiss a main centerpiece of his plan elimination of the Income Tax- with 'that's not going to happen', and talk no more of it. You then proceed to dissect what amounts to tangential issues at best, like tax credits, as if THEY were the proposals that Ron Paul advocates! Ron Paul believes that the Tax Credits are merely a transitional step on the way to eliminating the income tax. Either you believe the best way to discuss an issue is to dismiss the centerpiece and focus on tangential and transitional aspects, or else you disingenuously never intended to have a REAL discussion in the first place, but merely wrap a hit piece on Ron Paul in a cloak of semi-resepctable faux-journalistic integrity. Great propaganda tactic- lousy journalism.

I would proceed with a point-by-point refutation of your mischarachterization and complete misunderstanding of the rest of Dr. Paul's proposals, but I feel that would fall on deaf ears. Suffice it to say you never even MENTIONED the main piece of the Ron Paul platform to right the ship of the American economy- elimination of the Federal Reserve and returning to a sound monetary policy. And don't hand me the 'Gold Standard won't work' line, as many noted economists, investment bankers and businessmen have (unlike YOU apparently) actually read Dr. Paul's proposals and have pronounced them not only sound and principled, but highly workable! The Federal Reserve is nothing more than a group of Private Bankers who secretly manipulate the U.S. Money Supply (without ANY form of government oversight or disclosure) to their own advantage. The Fed is the singe main reason for most of the economic distress we now face. Runaway REAL inflation of over 10% annually (Which the Fed refuses to even acknowledge), the continual devaluation of the dollar, the financing of the bloating American government through the issuance of massive debt, the mortgaging of our future, our childrens' future and THEIR childrens' future through wholesale defecit spending financed by indebting ourselves to foreign (and many ENEMY) nations, and balance of payments debacle- all the direct result of FED malfeasance.

Of course, you don't even mention this. Probably would only rate an 'It'll never happen'. Gee... isn't that what the people of Germany said about Hitler's rise to power? Never say never- you may not like the ugly surprise.

xtrabiggg
+++++++++++++++++++++++++

575,000 troops overseas right now. I think bringing them home, cutting all the funding of those overseas bases and the transportation of troops and equipment and extra pay and whatnot would cut a lot of those costs as well. I'm more than confident we can cut the IRS and cut spending by 1/3 and get to 2000 spending levels.

In the interest of 'saving time', I quote an earlier post,

Posted by doyourresearchfirst at 6:14 P.M., to wit:

"I guess your readers really care about your opinion but since you aren't running the country, and you clearly haven't studied your subject matter, I think your readers will read what you have to say here and decide that you have taken time from them they will never get back. And if they are smart. They won't let you steal from them again."

Well put -- and sound advice! I think I will take it and advise the end to any further comment here.

A parting thought: just exactly how much is a "zillion," anyway?

"Good night -- and joy be with you all!"

Dear Meghan
I'm not going to go into my normal comment on how dim witted I find your column.
No, I'm going to make a suggestion
that if fulfilled may make you see the light and free us all from having to lead you down the right path.

Interview Ron Paul.

Ask him the questions about your misunderstandings of his message. The world will be a better place.
Who knows maybe you can straighten him out.

"slash military spending? But then who is going to perform all this border enforcement?"

How to slash spending? Bring every troop in every country home and close every base abroad.
Fire Backwater or draft their mercenaries into the Army at $20 000 a year instead of $1000 A DAY.
End all star wars weapons boondoggles.

And Megan my first law is, if a young lady like you wants to cheer lead this endless war, you should go to the local recruiting center and put your pen to good use.

There is only one reason to like this article...it means that the Neo-Cons are getting nervous and the slander has begun. This writer is a tool...in more ways than one.

And why do the Paulites respond to all disagreements with "you don't know the facts" or "you haven't studied the subject matter" (which Megan clearly has). Your insistance that informed people can't reach different conclusions based on the facts, in good faith, is one of the scarier aspects of your "revolution." Another is ignorance of constitutional history, law and interpretation coupled with a claim to "return to" the Constitution. (Paul admonished his fellow candidates to read the oath of office in the Constitution and do more to protect against domestic enemies. Reading the constitution reveals...no mention of enemies, foreign or domestic, in the oath. He's also wrong about how he interprets the references to gold and silver in the constitution.) Another one is your conviction that he will win. (Yes, they said the same thing about person X or Y who did win; they also said it about Ross Perot, Pat Buchanan, etc.) I'm getting ready for some "stabbed in the back" mythology to spring up when he loses, rather than acceptance of the validity of the votes. Dangerous stuff, that.

Greg: "draft their mercenaries into the Army at $20 000 a year instead of $1000 A DAY." Pretty sure that libertarians oppose the draft. But anyway, the point wasn't how to slash military spending, the point was who is going to "police the border" once you do so.

I'm 23, and would love nothing more than to opt out of social security. I don't understand the whole idea of the government providing for you after you retire.

It's your responsibility to plan for your future. I know that social security is a joke, that's why I have taken steps to let money I've saved accumulate in retirement funds that the government has absolutely no hands on.

Everyone makes this so complicated, lets cut our empire thus saving trillions of dollars, lets end the Income tax and allow people to save their own money, I know I could throw a lot more money into my future if I wasn't having it stolen by the I.R.S. every paycheck.

Wanna make health care more easily acceptable, how about ending the strangle hold the pharmaceutical and drug companies have over Washington. Now lets combine that with ending the un-constitutional income tax. That alone would allow people a better way of life, where self responsibility is a must not a maybe, and where you are able to keep the money you are owed.

Ending the welfare state may not be easy, but in the long run it will be beneficial to everyone.


why do the Paulites respond to all disagreements with "you don't know the facts"

I've asked this several times in several threads. The answer (with honorable exceptions) is "because you don't know the facts!!!"

Rob,

I respect your comments and agree to some extent.

Please answer this question; Which candidate do you think offer the most truth?

I know the answer from my research is Ron Paul.

Paul T--care to point out the "lies" of Edwards or Obama? or Biden? Dodd?

"You are in fact simply assuming available money based upon how much you think the feds are lying."

Rob, I assume that the Feds lie, especially about money. Only a fool would keep believing proven liars.

"But a prudent voter will not pick his presidential candidate based on rank speculation found in blog comments."

A prudent voter also won't be swayed by the rank opprobrium displayed by the mass media or others towards particular candidates, an opprobrium based on little more than emotion as opposed to reason.

"Empires involve the subjugation and systematic exploitation of foreign populations"

America in Iraq, Afghanistan, Central America...

The people opting out will be the younger ones, who would be contributing the revenue for these retirees. So perhaps Ron Paul's transition will eliminate Social Security. But if it 'works' and the young opt out, then all those seniors he's trying to 'keep out of the cold' are in deep trouble.
Posted by DPT | December 28, 2007 6:40 PM

There is an assumption being made that is not the case, at least in my case. I am 50 years old right now. I do not want for my children to be paying into this bankrupt system. I am for their being able to opt out. They are not the ones responsible for creating this beast.

The other part of this is that I have no problem myself to continue to pay into the SSI program for those dependent on it. Make no mistake, when I retire I will not need SSI. This socialist program must stop. It is nothing more than another form of slavery. Seems to me that 50 would be a good cut off age, don't you think. By the way there are many now drawing SSI that do not need it which can also be culled.

Property rights are a function of government and should therefore be subject to a use fee.

Of course, there is an exception: Subsistence property rights such as home and tools of one's trade. Subsistence property rights exist in the absence of government by virtue of self defense over one's personal territory. So there is a reasonable argument that they should be exempted.

Republican elites don't want this because they are simply greedy. Democratic elites don't want this because they are hypocritically greedy.

FDR's handlers were the most viciously hypocritical of all when it had Huey Long assassinated to prevent a real wealth tax and then passed a so called "Wealth Tax" that was really just the prototype of the modern income tax code which is riddled with complex loopholes that only the wealthy can navigate with their hired sophists.

paul t, if by truth you mean "honest conviction" and "sound governmental philosophy," then the answer is clearly Ron Paul. Futhermore, I liked Ron Paul before Ron Paul was cool, starting in about 2000 when I first heard of him. He's a for-real small government type, and just about the only one out there.

That said, real candidates need real policies, not vague statements like "eliminate the income tax" or "enact universal health care" (the latter being a distinctly non-Paul plan). And that means a consideration of the real budget, and an explanation of how the real dollars necessary to pay for priorities will be found. In the case of massive tax cuts, it means showing where the spending cuts will be made.

I'd be delighted to get rid of the Department of Education, but doing so won't make elimination of the income tax feasible. Nor will closing bases in Germany, which I think is a bad idea for other reasons. As the pie graph shows, we've yoked ourselves to a big welfare state, which either needs to be massively cut or paid for. Given that the biggest chunk of the welfare state is payments to old people, who by the way vote in disproportionate numbers, how are adequate cuts even possible? That makes abolishing the IRS just a slogan.

Also, why does Paul get all these "honesty" points? His libertarianism is inconsistent, his constitutionalism stops where it meets brown people (he wants to repeal the 14th ammendment and deny citizenship to children of illegals born here.) And he believes in conspiracy theories!

The 14th-ammendment point is worth comment on. Paul told Russert that the ammendment gives citizenship to those born in the US and subject to its jurisdiction, and he doesn't think someone who enters illegally to deal drugs is subject to its jurisdiction. Ignoring the smear of immigrants, this is a pretty stupid reading of the ammendment.

First of all, yes, an illegal drug dealer is subject to our jurisdiction. We can arrest him, we tax him; we even apply the estate tax (when we have one) to the worldwide assets of illegal immigrants.

But, that's irrelevant. The ammendment grants citizenship to anyone BORN here and subject to our jurisdiction. Not one word about the parents; whether the supposedly drug-dealing parent is subject to our jurisdiction (which he is) is totally irrelevant, since the ammendment applies to all those born here.

Looks like Mr. Constitution should, you know, read it.

read it: or should I say, "do his homework," "learn the facts," etc., etc.

"Empires involve the subjugation and systematic exploitation of foreign populations"

America in Iraq, Afghanistan, Central America...

Jamie, if you believe that American behavior in those areas in 2007 can compare to the British in India (never mind the Soviets in Czechoslovakia or the Belgians in Africa or the Spanish in Mexico or the Japanese in Manchuria), then your grip on reality and your knowledge of history is rather severely lacking.

You'd do a lot better comparing British/US behavior toward the indigenous populations of the Americas to other imperial states. US out of Jamestown!

"real candidates need real policies"

Rob, so I can assume that you've read the books that Ron Paul has authored in the past 25 years or so in which he details his policies and ideas?

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul420.html

Mr. Schuller - If only the rest of the nation shared your convictions. I acknowledge there are people out there like you who will not take benefits Social Security offers. But principled libertarians/Ron Paul supporters/etc are clearly in the minority. For better or for worse, Social Security has incredible political resilience... And unlike, say, the Federal Reserve, it is not because there could be any conspiracy of wealthy corporations and bankers that benefit from it, or any quid pro quo with the media. It is because voters (for whatever reason), and ESPECIALLY middle-aged and retired American workers, tend to support the program and have interest groups (the AARP) that will castigate any politician that even hints at dismantling the system. Even the so-called 'privatizers' in the Bush Administration speak of bolstering Social Security, not dismantling it.

I respect your decision to stand against your short-term self interest by refusing to draw on SSI. But I do not think it is one we can rely on large numbers of Americans to make.

Rob, the American empire and its lackies have killed millions of innocents worldwide in the past 50+ years. If you don't think that isn't subjugation and exploitation, then I'll never convince you.

The American record in Central America alone is a horror story. Yet the mass murderer John Negroponte is still safely ensconced in DC without a peep from the mass media.

The details Dr. Paul has gone into (most of which don't appear to have been represented here in this article) include the elimination of federal departments--more than just the ones mentioned. Even if Paul cuts the government spending, by refining or doing away with these departmental costs, by 1%... that's an accomplishment.

Its far short of his goal and our (supporters) desires, but it will have been a monument to the idea that it can be done--an increasing federal budget and spending has become our reality for years--even a minor reverse of that trend would be notable, though not history in the making.

Though defense budget cuts (keeping in mind just how much is paid to support the current War and contracts) are scary for those who see the total dollar figure as synonymous with our ARMY/NAVY/AIRFORCE/MARINES having numbers, training, and facillities--in reality, the sheer excess in defense spending (easily checkable, its not a big secret what we waste on things merely tangential to the actual military machine) could be casually reduced by five percent with the elimination of bases and foreign military support. Again, not history, but notable.

Given his record, I don't think there's a doubt--even by the author--that he's serious about trying. Trying doesn't mean succeeding, but I don't think we're having a conversation about whether he's sincere... only whether he'll succeed with plans that may not be functional (a far cry from "He's lying" for instance).

Given that I believe he's the only candidate with the background, education, and sincerity when it comes to controlling our budgetary woes with regard to the tax-burden... he has my vote.

Worst case scenario? He fails. He's not re-elected. We get another big-government-spender in the White House and things pick up four years from where it left off.

But, like many, I'm willing to risk things like SS, global upheaval from the vaccum of our leaving it alone, the pains from people getting off a welfare system that starts shrinking, even the political chaos from stand-offs about budget cuts and Congressional veto-overrides...

...I'll risk it for four years. Because I, like many, can see the forest for the trees. We cannot, not for a bit, not even "similarly", continue economically and fiscally how we have. America can't afford itself.

God help us all, but like a surgeon and a cancer--we may have to trust that the doctor will have to cut and risk and save our life, even in the face of possible failure.

Because we won't survive otherwise.

Jesus H. Christ... I could give a damn, altogether, about whether or not gays get married--as horrible as that sounds. Or immigrants having jobs. Or terrorists half-a-world away with no army or navy worth thinking about. Or the genocide in Africa. Or supporting Pakistan, Israel, or any other nation. Tomorrow, the sun will rise and those problems won't have a thing to do with me putting food on the table or providing for my family.

But every day the dollar sinks, gas rises, credit institutions get more restrictive, prices outpace wages, and taxes grow more and more demanding.

And, one day, as passively as it sounds, I'll wake up and I really won't be able to afford what I could afford yesterday. My bills will come due, like always, and my dollar will not cover them.

My take-home pay will vastly underpace my obligations, and I will watch the welfare line catch up to me--rather than me falling behind to it.

Maybe I'm just young, not thirty yet. Maybe I'm pessimistic. But, soon I won't be able to afford America. Like many. And that's a goddamn shame.