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The Logic of Life: CEO Pay

07 Feb 2008 02:34 pm

Why do CEO’s make so much money? The question seems to obsess us, probably more than it should. Discussions of income inequality often turn to the topic of outsized CEO pay packages, even though massive payouts to a handful of people cannot possibly account for the trends we have seen in the nation’s income statistics—there simply aren’t enough CEOs of large companies to produce the change, even if every one of them received outsized compensation, which isn’t the case. Similarly, CEO pay is often brought up in the context of stagnating median wages, even though the pay of most CEOs, distributed across thousands of workers, would boost their paychecks by only a small amount.

Nonetheless, inside most of us retain the village instinct that anyone who is paid so much must be getting away with something. In the fourth chapter of his new book, the Logic of Life, Tim Harford suggests that we’re right. Sort of. But not necessarily in the way that you probably think.

A lot of the invective against CEO pay is simply argument from incredulity: how could Michael Eisner possibly be worth $800 million in total compensation to his shareholders? Coming, as this almost always does, from someone who has spent little time watching CEOs work, this has always seemed slightly silly: how could you possibly have any idea whether he’s worth $800 million or not?

But Harford ably outlines an even more intriguing possibility: Michael Eisner might be worth $800 million even if he does nothing at all—indeed, perhaps he’d be worth even more if he did nothing but play video games all day.

That’s because many economists believe that CEO pay is structured as it is not to spur the CEO to ever greater heights of achievement, but rather pour encourager les autres. Michael Eisner might work just as hard for $1 million a year . . . but the gigantic payoff to becoming CEO spurs those beneath him to ever-greater heights of achievement. Basically, Michael Eisner has won the employment lottery. And because the prize is so big, all of his subordinates are dutifully beavering away, vying for a chance at the gravy train.

This does a pretty good job of explaining the structure of corporation pay, but not necessarily the magnitude—one imagines that Michael Eisner’s subordinates would work pretty hard to get a shot at even a mere $400 million in total compensation. This is where the explanation that I have previously favored comes in: captive boards doling out favors to CEOs. As Mr. Harford explains, each shareholder’s contribution to even a truly outlandish CEO pricetag is too small for them to take much interest in holding it down. The games that companies were recently revealed to be playing with their stock options show just how lamentable a state shareholder supervision of boards is—and I wish someone had a better answer to the question of why large institutional investors aren’t more active in corporate governance.

The other thing tournament theory doesn’t explain very well is why CEO salaries have changed. I wish this chapter had contained more on the shift, which started in the 1980s but really got going in the 1990s, towards ever larger CEO paychecks. This is not a criticism—as every writer knows, there’s always too much good material to slide by your editor’s miserly word counts—but still, I wish. There are a lot of plausible candidates out there: changes in financial theory, the stock market boom, deregulation, dilution of shareholder interest by changes in the capital markets, even a cultural shift—and I would like Mr. Harford to help me sort through them.

Comparison of today’s American companies with the companies of the 1980s, or their current European counterparts, would seem to reveal that the tournament is an effective, if perhaps a little distasteful, structure. Americans are widely known for working harder than Europeans. Moreover, current American companies are not only far more productive than they used to be, but also enjoy significant productivity advantages over their foreign counterparts in critical but harder-to-measure areas like logistics and IT. When American companies take over companies abroad, suddenly their IT operation seems to improve dramatically. These differences may go a long way towards explaining the growth differentials between the two regions.

Comments (164)

I wish this chapter had contained more on the shift, which started in the 1980s but really got going in the 1990s, towards ever larger CEO paychecks

This corresponds roughly with the time when liberalrob entered the workforce.

My theory is they've just been stealing it all from him since then.

Read Warren Buffett's latest letter to Berkshire shareholders where he opines about CEO compensation (starts at the bottom of p.18 of this PDF).
Buffett sets the compensation of 40+ CEOs of Berkshire operating companies, and he also sits on a number of outside corporate boards (though he's usually not picked for the compensation committees, for reasons that will be clear after reading his letter).

The surprising thing to me is that despite being willing to spend enormous amounts of money, they don't seem to be able to hire particularly talented people. For example, if I had a large amount of stock in GM (and I didn't take the easier route of just unloading it) why wouldn't I beat the bushes to find someone, anyone who was interested in doing something more than look dignified as the ship sinks?

There are talented people who clearly earn whatever they get (such as for example Steve Jobs or possibly the few CEOs in the financial industry who bet against the housing boom going on forever) but these people are not especially valued over the drones.

I would say that for many companies, motivating the troops is the least of their worries....and really, how far down does that motivation go. There can't be many people at one of these places that realistically thinks that they have a chance to make it to the top.

Fred:
Funny you mention Warren. What is even funnier is that I bet Megan would have loved his father.

On why institutional investors haven't gotten more active about CEO pay:

1. Too many institions are passive (Index funds vote ISS reccomendations and they own the plurality share of most S&P 500 sized firms).

2. It's still a relatively small cost per institution. CalPERS and NY's Pension system each only have a few hundred billion, so I'd be surprised if their largest holding was more than a billion, so they're contributing a few million to any given CEO (and their holdings are spread across many different funds).

3. Most of the pay comes in the form of options which were granted years ago but excercised today, and most people are terrible at valuing options, watch deal or no deal and guess what the banker is going to offer for an example. Also, options are a pretty cheap form of compensation, since most firms effectively issue new stock to employees to cover them, so it gooses cash flows and the dilution is much slower to be noticed/or are offset by larger share repurchases.

Other than Warrent Buffet (who doesn't pay with options much) who actually thinks about what portion of the company they own? That's where the cost of option payments hit shareholders.

Fred:
I forgot to mention one thing. Buffet is a rare breed. He is the type that drives the WSJ crowd crazy. He makes perfect sense so they do their best to try and marginalize him(though it is hard because of Buffet's wealth).

The reason professional investors don't say much about CEO pay is that they are the ones that originally pushed for the pay for performance and/or options that caused CEO pay to soar over the last 20 years or so.

In the late 1970s-early 1980 before the great bull market took off the investment community came up with the idea that the reason stock had done so poorly over the prior 20 years is that CEOs did not have the same interest as shareholders. Of
course this completely ignored the impact of high inflation and high interest rate on stock valuation in the 1970s -- but don't let a little thing like the facts interfere with a great theory. So the professional investor community pushed the idea of providing the bulk of CEO compensation in stock options and other forms of stock so as to aline CEO incentives with stockholder interest.

So when the shift in the approach to CEO pay was followed by the great bull market of the 1980s and 1990s of course both the CEOs and the professional investors were all to happy to claim that their theory worked and was responsible for the great stock returns of he 1980s and 1990s.

Let's see. A useless CEO gets obscene pay package because it motivates a few underlings who are just as incompetent.

The folks in the trenches, who actually do the real work, read about the obscene CEO pay, check their own paltry pay stub, get wickedly pissed, and do their best to sabotage the jerks at the top.

Yuppers.

Sure makes sense. NOT!!!!

What ivory tower academic wrote this book?

Continuum-

Tim Hartford wrote the book. He is not an academic. Maybe you should suspend your anti-academic bias and practice doing research.

Continuum - so that I can avoid falling into the trap you describe, can you please tell me at what threshold of income and/or reponsibility would I move from "folks in the trenches" to incompetent underling?

Rickm is correct- Harford is not an ivory tower academic.

You can agree or not with Harford's thesis, but I see no reason to insult him that way.

"The folks in the trenches, who actually do the real work..."

Sounds like you subscribe to the Labor Theory of Value.

Mike,

I don't know for sure the answer to your question, but when I was a child, I told everyone I wanted to live the life of an incompetent underling.

With no data to back me up, I'll propose 3 synergistic explanations for the increase in CEO pay since 1980.

1) Change to individual tax structure.

The decreasing change in marginal rates at the high end meant that tournament-structured compensation made more sense. I think that the ratio of CEO pay to direct-report-of-CEO pay increased substantially; no difference in marginal rates between the two would at least partly explain that phenomenon.

2) Change to expected inflation

Moving to an environment where capital gains are favored over dividends, due to lower inflation (inflation increases the tax rate on real capitla gains), means it is economically reasonable for companies to retain more earnings. That means a bigger pool of money per CEO (but fewer CEOs).

3) Investing as hobby.

More relatively uninformed buyers means a CEO's reputation is more important. Thus, more CEO's are "professional managers", and fewer are company veterans. This restricts the pool of plausible CEOs.

Michael Eisner was an outlier, and not typical of CEO's in general. Very few got the kind of compensation he got. As a CEO he had enormous success in his early years, but much less later on. When he was running the company poorly, he was clearly overpaid.

It amazes me, though, that so much attention is paid to CEO compensation when Hedge Fund managers, athletes and movie stars often make much more than the typical CEO.

The crucial test of whether CEO's of public companies are overpaid is to see what pay they get at private companies. If I recall correctly, ceteris paribus they actually get more money at privately held concerns than they do at publicly held ones. That's something I read a while ago. If someone asks for a citation to prove it, I'll try to find one, but I can't promise it.

Maybe part of the factor in CEO pay scales is the mind-boggling size that some modern large corporations have achieved. One person may live at the top of a hierarchy that sets the course of events for an organization of 150,000 people around the world and $100B in global market capitalization, while variously negotiating operational inputs and outputs with other businesses totaling perhaps another 1-5 million people and $2-5T in global market value.

What is the person who can steer that ship really worth?

Everyone seems to have a well-defined sense that the value is "less than what they make now", frequently asserted in reference to their own wealth and/or income scale, but useful ideas for objectively evaluating that value are in short supply.

There are a lot of plausible candidates out there: changes in financial theory, the stock market boom, deregulation, dilution of shareholder interest by changes in the capital markets, even a cultural shift—and I would like Mr. Harford to help me sort through them.

Changes in market capitalization of the largest companies is another possibility, with some strong data backing it.

Quoting from the paper:

In particular, in the baseline specification of the model’s parameters, the six-fold increase of U.S. CEO pay between 1980 and 2003 can be fully attributed to the six-fold increase in market capitalization of large companies during that period."

In other words, it appears that a large part of the increase in salary for CEO A of company X comes from buying company Y and taking what used to be CEO B's salary as well. It's not clear how relevant that is to income inequality. Is the problem of the top .5% running away from the rest of the top 1% necessarily the biggest problem?

Here is an article that notes the same trend I had read about before--that private companies are offering more lucrative pay packages now than public ones. That seems to me pretty conslusive proof that the typical CEO of a public company is not overpaid.

I wish someone had a better answer to the question of why large institutional investors aren’t more active in corporate governance.

And what legal/policy changes could encourage them to be more active.

The above theorizing on the various statistical/economic reasons for the lop-sided executive compensation is nothing short of wonderful.

It truly calls to mind the late night dinner conversations of the French nobility just before the peasants stormed Versailles.

Now, to mix metaphors a tad. Let's get out all our fiddles while the middle class burns.

Thacker's and anony's explanations sound plausible.

What then, does that say about increasing growth in industrialized countries? It looks like while we've seen enormous growth, its going entirely to the top, and on a worldwide scale, the bottom.

It truly calls to mind the late night dinner conversations of the French nobility just before the peasants stormed Versailles.

And the fact that you recall these conversations would appear to be strong proof that the French medical system gives superior outcomes to the American one, at least in longevity.

I always figured there was a large component of the "agency problem". That is, you pay them enough that they have no incentive to put their interests above your own. I guess that doesn't address your point about $400 mil being enough, but still...

Let's get out all our fiddles while the middle class burns.

Rather an enjoyable burn, I do tell you. Or, do you call the minimum wage earners "middle class"?

Continuum:

I work at a Fortune 50 company with a highly paid CEO.

In 2006 he got $18.6 million in total compensation. Of this, $6.4 million was due to stock and options grants, $2 million was increases in his pension plan, and about $8.3 million was cash (salary, bonus based on current year performance, long term incentive based on 3 year rolling average performance). The rest was "other", a grab bag of memberships, tax planning, car lease, etc.

The company did right at $40 billion in sales and $4 billion pretax profit. There are 140,000 employees. So if we cut his compensation by $14 million, we'd each get a bonus of $100. This would be nice, but it wouldn't change my life much - I've got an upper middle class salary.

I can remember when the company stock was trading at $8/share. It's now over $100, so he and his predecessor did pretty good job for the stockholders (and my ESOP).

ech,

$18.6 million for a CEO is chump change. That's not what people are complaining about.

Joel Klein's Conscience:

Buffett makes a lot of sense when he talks about corporate governance, but not so much when he attempts to foment class warfare about taxes. For example, his recent lamentations that he doesn't pay enough in taxes. Two problems with that story:

1) Buffett owns a huge chunk of Berkshire Hathaway. BRK pays a whole lot in taxes.

2) If Buffett wanted to pay more in taxes, he wouldn't deliberately avoid the capital gains tax by donating his shares of BRK to the Gates Foundation. Instead, he'd sell his shares of BRK, pay the capital gains on them, and then donate the net proceeds to the Gates Foundation.

These two paragraphs from the Berkshire letter are worth posting here:

"In selecting a new director, we were guided by our long-standing criteria, which are that board members be owner-oriented, business-savvy, interested and truly independent. I say “truly” because many directors who are now deemed independent by various authorities and observers are far from that, relying heavily as they do on directors’ fees to maintain their standard of living. These payments, which come in many forms, often range between $150,000 and $250,000 annually, compensation that may approach or even exceed all other income of the “independent” director. And – surprise, surprise – director compensation has soared in recent years, pushed up by recommendations from corporate America’s favorite consultant, Ratchet, Ratchet and Bingo. (The name may be phony, but the action it conveys is not.)

Charlie [Munger, Berkshire's cranky vice chairman] and I believe our four criteria are essential if directors are to do their job – which, by law, is to faithfully represent owners. Yet these criteria are usually ignored. Instead, consultants and CEOs seeking board candidates will often say, “We’re looking for a woman,” or “a Hispanic,” or “someone from abroad,” or what have you. It sometimes sounds as if the mission is to stock Noah’s ark. Over the years I’ve been queried many times about potential directors and have yet to hear anyone ask, “Does he think like an intelligent owner?”

Most egregious is the executive comp at the "Government Sponsored Entities" (e.g., Fannie Mae).

Sounds similar to the pay structure and incentive schemes of the drug dealers in Freakonomics.

Um. Fred. When Buffett said that he should pay more in taxes, he wasn't' saying that 'Warren Buffett' should pay more in taxes, he was saying that rich people like himself should allllllll be mandated to pay more in taxes.

RICKM,

Nothing is stopping Buffett from paying more. As they say, lead by example.

"Why do CEO’s make so much money?" Because they are judges in their own cause.

"Why do CEO’s make so much money?" Because they are judges in their own cause.

Continuum wrote: It truly calls to mind the late night dinner conversations of the French nobility just before the peasants stormed Versailles.

95% of my ancestrage is French peasantry, and I can safely say that we got bored with storming Vesailles a long time ago. If complex hierarchies threaten and confuse you, the modern world offers a better solution: work at a small, privately-owned firm.

dm wrote: $18.6 million for a CEO is chump change. That's not what people are complaining about.

Only because there's someone making more than $18.6 million who currently captivates their attention. I'm fairly certain a goodly many people would be carping about those "ridiculous eight-figure salaries" if a small quantity of nine-figure salaries weren't available as front-row flame bait.

The main problem I have with current CEO compensation is that it ignores exogenous factors. GE trades for less than in did 10 years ago. If Jeff Immelt was CEO from 1988-1998 and Jack Welch from 1998-2008, would the stock price be materially different? The CEO of Exxon received a huge retirement package because oil traded at $70 a barrel.

The CEO should have targets to hit, such as increased shareholder equity (within debt limits) and options should kick in for each target. That way, if they earn a lot, I can accept that it is justified. Too many times it does appear like a lottery system, one that they sometimes lose (Nardelli at Home Depot).

Forgot the /sarcasm tag.

In an attempt to render some kind of mathematical-statistical legitimacy to executive compensation, I find the above arguments tantamount to counting the number of angels dancing on the head of a pin.

Most (but not all) of the above comments (save Fred's) seem to ignore the elephant dancing on that same pin's head in the corner. (Feel free to insert pun here.) Namely, that in general, most Board of Directors' Executive Compensation Committees exhibit the same independence, fidelity and integrity as that of Enron's audit committee.

The answer to outrageous executive compensation is the same as that to "why does a dog lick his privates".

Because he can.

Spare me the "pay for performance" nonsense where a CEO's compensation is tied to stock options. The recent revelations of retroactively adjusting strike points to lower costs in order to bring executive stock options into the money, puts that dog to rest.

(Although not quite old enough to remember the Bastille, my university economic training has been much tempered by years of human nature experience.)

Economic analysis is almost 100% accurate in predicting previous events. But, as for current and future, well, maybe not so much.

Shorter anony-mouse:

Anyone who complains about the increasing disparity between CEO pay and regular pay isn't really complaining about the increasing disparity between CEO pay and regular pay. They are just whiney and resentful.

The really obscene pay packages all involved stock options. Until a couple of years ago, stock options were not expensed when issued. Therefore they didn't show up in GAAP earnings.

This was really a huge deal. It is hard to believe that GAAP could drive corporate behavior, but they are extensively used in stock screens and high level quantitative analysis. There was extensive political pressure to allow this unrealistic accounting treatment, including legislation.

I don't have any problem with CEO's making salaries similar to star baseball players. Especially if their salaries are tied to the companies economic performance vs. a meaningful benchmark.

I do have a problem with income derived from options that weren't expensed and total compensation similar to the dictator of a developing nation.

Fred, I'm a great admirer of Warren as a businessman and investor, but he is badly mistaken about taxes. The high tax rates that prevail in many European countries explain the lower labor supply and much of the lower growth there.

Moreover, he has been misleading people about tax rates, arguing that he pays a higher tax rate than his secretary and implying that the US income tax is regressive. He's just plain wrong about that and his argument makes no sense.

And I do find it rather amusing when very rich people (like John Edwards and John Kerry) bemoan rising inequality, when they themselves could immediately address that inequality by giving their own money away. But of course they don't. They want to take our money and give that away.


Why has CEO pay increased so much?

Read Gabaix+Landier, Quarterly Journal of Economics 2008. Their conclusion: "The six-fold rise in CEO pay between 1980 and 2003 can be fully attributed to the six-fold increase in market capitalization of large companies during that period."

Rwe,

That's true, and it's unfortunate that Buffett would let his political biases tarnish his reputation for integrity at this point in his storied career. Buffett is an accounting genius. Of course he knows the nonsense about his secretary was complete horse shit (hint: your effective tax rate is not the same as your highest marginal rate).

Continuum,

Namely, that in general, most Board of Directors' Executive Compensation Committees exhibit the same independence, fidelity and integrity as that of Enron's audit committee.

OK--take that as stipulated.

What is different now than in 1975? Were executive compensation committees more independent then? We are trying to explain a change--it seems like board non-independence is an "it was always that way."

When one knows a bit about Buffett and what he says about taxes, the taxes he advocates increasing are the ones, if one knows a bit about his own personal situation, are the ones he doesn't and isn't going to pay. I've heard him say that he thinks the general corporate tax income tax is too, and lo and behold, he actually pays that tax! Thinking Buffett's pronouncements on tax policy are disinterested is a big mistake. He's working the system to the extent he can, which isn't necessarily very much, for his own benefit. Most things he says about public affairs, not just taxes, are like that.

SamChevre,

Read the Berkshire paragraphs I excerpted above. You've got two related factors in terms of board compensation:

1) The search for "Noah's Ark".

2) Directors for whom their director compensation is the bulk of their livelihood.

Often, for board members selected for 1), 2) applies as well.

RICKM wrote: Shorter anony-mouse: Anyone who complains about the increasing disparity between CEO pay and regular pay isn't really complaining about the increasing disparity between CEO pay and regular pay. They are just whiney and resentful.

Shorter RICKM: ...

That said, I'm open to an honest discussion of how and why CEO pay got where it is, whether this is a problem, and if it is, what can be done about it. I do not accept as first principles that it is too high and that this is a problem, just because human nature is prone to envy those with more. Human nature is a factor which cannot be excluded from the discussion; so the trick to making the discusion productive is, which arguments are making a legitimate point, and which are merely envious?

ech:

The company did right at $40 billion in sales and $4 billion pretax profit. There are 140,000 employees. So if we cut his compensation by $14 million, we'd each get a bonus of $100. This would be nice, but it wouldn't change my life much

Great, so all I have to do is find 600 people who think like you do and get them all to give me $100, and I can go home and play XBox all day. But snark aside, you're right. My point is that just because it doesn't hurt you that much should not be seen as excusing the CEO getting that big compensation; and I think that's the point examined here by Megan and TFA. Why are CEO salaries so huge?

Megan:

But Harford ably outlines an even more intriguing possibility: Michael Eisner might be worth $800 million even if he does nothing at all—indeed, perhaps he’d be worth even more if he did nothing but play video games all day.

Reminds me of the old analysis that made the rounds a few years back, as to what amount of money would be worth Bill Gates' time to pick up off the ground.

http://www.templetons.com/brad/billg.html

That’s because many economists believe that CEO pay is structured as it is not to spur the CEO to ever greater heights of achievement, but rather pour encourager les autres. Michael Eisner might work just as hard for $1 million a year . . . but the gigantic payoff to becoming CEO spurs those beneath him to ever-greater heights of achievement.

..which sounds like complete BS. How many Disney/Pixar animators really believe that if they just animate hard enough, they'll have a shot at being Michael Eisner one day?

Here's Michael Eisner's bio, from the Academy of Achievement:

Michael Eisner was born in Mt. Kisco, New York. His father was a well-to-do lawyer and investor. Eisner was raised in his parents' apartment on Park Avenue in New York City. Despite the luxurious surroundings, discipline in the Eisner household was strict. Eisner's parents required two hours of reading for every hour of television watching and strictly rationed the children's consumption of TV and movies.
[...]
After graduation in 1964, Michael Eisner returned to New York to work as an FCC logging clerk at NBC. Within six weeks, he had moved to the Programming Department at CBS, where he was responsible for slotting commercials in the right places in children's programs. Dissatisfied with this work, he mailed out hundreds of résumés, and received exactly one response. This came from Barry Diller in the programming department of ABC, who lobbied for Eisner's hire as Assistant to the National Programming Director at ABC, a post Eisner held from 1966 to 1968.

And the rest was history. But the key here is his relationship to Barry Diller. It was Diller's "lobbying for Eisner's hire" that got him his big break; that was the "employment lottery" as Megan calls it that Michael Eisner won; he built up a good relationship with someone in authority who could pull some strings to advance his career.

At base, that's the biggest objection people like myself probably have with people like Eisner raking in gazillions. It's not that they didn't work hard to get where they are, it's that it seems they got where they are more from who they knew than what they did. Would Eisner have made it to the top of Disney if Diller hadn't "lobbied for his hire" at ABC in 1966? Possibly; Eisner (like Cuban and Buffett and Jobs and Gates and all of them) was a highly intelligent, hard-working, motivated person. But I think there's no question that having a Barry Diller in your corner at just the right time can be an immense help down that road. When you read stories like Eisner's and look at sites like They Rule and see how this "old boys' club" seems to exist in the upper strata of society, how can it not breed resentment in those who have no hope of winning that lottery?

Even so, I wouldn't mind them winning that lottery so much if they put that wealth at the disposal of society as the need arose. I know there are all sorts of arguments and evidence that in fact they do, through charities and endowments and such; and there's no question that those efforts are positive and worthwhile. Dennis Leary is financing the rebuilding of firehouses in New Orleans, and Brad Pitt is bankrolling a residential rebuilding project there as well; these are good things. But what is Carl Icahn doing? What is Warren Buffett doing, specifically, to help rebuild New Orleans? I don't have any information on their efforts, and even if I did, that's great, what are all the rest of the multi-millionaires and billionaires doing to help rebuild New Orleans? There is a specific and glaring need there, and only a relative handful of the wealthy are actually doing anything to address it. For the rest, they either have other interests that take priority or they are not interested at all for whatever reason. And that's just one single issue where the response is spotty and incomplete; I bet there is no single issue you can name that has united sufficient numbers of wealthy contributors to fully address the issue.

That's why I turn to government to address those problems. Only government, as the representative of ALL the people, can muster the focus to fully address the largest issues faced by society. To finance that government and give it the resources to address those issues, we levy taxes. When powerful interest groups and anti-tax advocates argue against taxation, they are arguing against addressing the nation's problems in what I see as the only feasible way. That's why I argue so strongly in favor of increased taxation on those most able to afford it, which includes these fantastically compensated CEOs.

Ha ha, Rob Lyman. Got me again. You're a card.

Greg Mankiw discussed Buffett's claim about taxes here.

Bottom line: Contrary to what Buffett implied, the U.S. federal tax system is highly progressive. The total effective federal tax rate on the top quintile of households by income is around 5 times the rate on the bottom quintile (25% vs 5%). The rate on the top 1% of households is higher still--around 30%.

If Buffett meant to imply only that his personal tax rate is lower than his secretary's, that can only be because he takes advantage of various tax avoidance strategies (not realizing capital gains, donating appreciated assets to charity, etc.) that would not be affected by raising tax rates on the wealthy, anyway.

I went to high school with a bunch of rich kids and they and their families all did a significant amount of charity work and gave significant amounts of money to charity.

I'd be a lot more sympathetic to raising taxes to address the country's problems if we weren't already spending tax money on lots of really stupid stuff. I suspect that if Congress really prioritized, they could find the money for the important stuff without raising taxes. Heck, they could probably reduce them.

It's not like we don't already have huge entitlement programs in place at the Federal, State, and local level. I bet some of those could be made more efficient.

Giving Congress more money is like giving money to an alcoholic... he might spend it on food or clothes for his kids... but I wouldn't bet on it. I'd like to see more discipline from Congress to convince me they can be trusted with the money we give them.

Oh, and rich people don't stick their money in mattresses. They generally invest them. That investment money is what companies borrow to build capital. Poor and middle class people spend most of their money. So rich people pay more in taxes than the rest of us AND invest more than the rest of us.

liberalrob, if you were hoping to make some grand point about the need for government to step in following natural disasters, why would you pick the most pristine possible example of an area wasted by decades of bureacratic incompetence and fiduciary waste?

"That's why I turn to government to address those problems."-liberalrob

Liberalrob, are there any problems you don't want the governent to address?

I'm curious why you think the Soviet Union failed. Really, I would like to know. What's your explanation? Is there, perhaps, a danger in too much government control over the economy? Is it possible that the government can damage the economy when it tries to equalize incomes?

Because that was not my grand point. The grand point was that sitting back hoping that the wealthy will pony up the dough to take care of natural disasters or similarly large, national problems doesn't work, QED. If government wastes money on bureaucratic incompetence and malfeasance, that can be addressed through oversight and reform. But without taxation, how are you going to force the wealthy to contribute? And if you don't raise their taxes, and you don't force them to contribute, how will national problems EVER get addressed?

The grand point was that sitting back hoping that the wealthy will pony up the dough to take care of natural disasters or similarly large, national problems doesn't work, QED.

We've got a system that does that now. What exactly was your point, then?

Never mind, I just "got" it:

how are you going to force the wealthy to contribute....if you don't raise their taxes

In short, you want the wealthy to pay more than they do now, because you perceive an insufficient number of your policy goals to be fully funded as yet.

Unfortunately, in past discussions along that road, you have not demonstrated any more wisdome than a Soviet central planner, so I think I'll wait and see what you come up with to deflate rwe's quip.

> I wish someone had a better answer to the question of why large institutional investors aren’t more active in corporate governance.

From time to time pension funds make noises about this sort of thing. But not very often and they don't push it very far. For most public companies the largest institutional shareholders are mutual funds. Mutual funds certainly have an incentive to see the value of their investments go up. It increases the value of assets under management and then their management fees go up. However most fund companies concentrate on increasing assets under management through advertising and marketing through financial planners and such. It's just easier and faster to increase assets under management that way. To top it off a lot of funds have high turnover. Investors are always chasing some new-fangled fund or sector that was hot last year. So if fund investors aren't terribly long term focused fund managers don't have an incentive to be either.

Liberalrob - I see a huge flaw in the logic of your statement:

"Only government, as the representative of ALL the people, can muster the focus to fully address the largest issues faced by society." While the theory that the government represents ALL the people should be true - the fact is that the government does not do a very good job of representing ALL the people very well - but rather is often run in such a way as to be rather inept at producing market driven, cost effective and truly caring ways of addressing the largest issues facing the people being governed. Far more effective are non-profit humanitarian (often philanthropically funded) organizations who achieve far more on the dollar of an impact that actually produces positive change. When people are sitting around waiting for the government to do something they typically don't solve problems themselves and don't bond together as a community or group to effect real positive change. True grassroots efforts typically result from seeing a real need and addressing it in either an anti-government or anti-establishment type movement - or more passively just because people care. The biggest effectors and contributors of good in the short term and the long term to major catastrophies and minor ones are good neighbors who help because they care. The religious and volunteer groups that immediately came to aid in New Orleans with food, shelter, clothing, medical care and supplies were vital in the beginning stages of recovery from this disaster. While the government worked to do their part - there were some obvious problems with implementation - in part because of the inefficiencies of a big entity that didn't really get that it was about the people.

In short - the people are the ones who can and should organize - in part via goverment, but government should never be big enough to be viewed as being the only responsible solution. To do so saps the true strength - which even in the presence of a voted government still remains in the hands of the committed and caring individual citizen. I would rephrase your liberal friends comment of it takes a village to raise a child to it takes a group of individual committed, caring individuals to raise a child. This way no one sits around blaming the village elders that the child got neglected - instead they see the need and fill it themselves with their friends and neighbors.

The magnitude of corporate pay may be determined by the compensation of traders in the financial markets. That is the more Warren Buffet makes, the higher the payoff needed in the employment lottery. People judge their wealth compared to a peer group, even the very rich. To see the relative compensation in the US see
http://www.visualizingeconomics.com/2007/02/15/2005-us-income-distribution-part-3/

"The six-fold rise in CEO pay between 1980 and 2003 can be fully attributed to the six-fold increase in market capitalization of large companies during that period."

So what? What's the magic in this correlation? This is one of those extremely rare occasions where I agree with Megan. Much of CEO compenstion is based on pure cronyism.

Liberalrob, are there any problems you don't want the governent to address?

Sure there are. I don't think there's a whole lot the government can do about my receding hairline, or the fact that there are people who simply refuse to understand what I'm saying.

I'm curious why you think the Soviet Union failed. Really, I would like to know.

Here I am a Communist again. Maybe I'll do a blog post on that sometime. Been a while since I did one.

It's offtopic here, and irrelevant.

Is there, perhaps, a danger in too much government control over the economy? Is it possible that the government can damage the economy when it tries to equalize incomes?

I'm not advocating that. I do think there is a role in regulating the economy in the public interest; but that's not the same as dictating all incomes and outcomes, which is what you want to accuse me of. Government should set boundaries and penalties for exceeding those boundaries. Within the boundaries, hands off. Income inequality is a symptom, not the disease. The disease is over-reliance on the private sector to act in the best interests of society as a whole, which it is manifestly ill-equipped to do and in fact has incentives that are just the opposite.

What's that got to do with CEO pay? I'm not asking 100% confiscation of all compensation above 200k, though I daresay that would finance a heckuva lot of worthwhile projects. I'm saying that when I "whine" about CEOs getting huge salaries, it's not merely because I wish I had that money instead of them; it's because I know they won't spend it on things I consider important, not only for my own benefit but for the country as a whole. Dennis Leary shouldn't HAVE to finance the rebuilding of firehouses out of his own pocket, and society shouldn't expect him to do it or wait for him to do it; firehouses benefit all of society, and government, as society's agent, should have rebuilt them. If government doesn't have the resources, it should be given them. If it has the resources but wastes them, it should be reformed.

You asked:

I wish someone had a better answer to the question of why large institutional investors aren’t more active in corporate governance.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "better" answer, but there is a clear answer. I argued in Shareholder Activism and Institutional Investors that:

Most institutional investors compete to attract either the savings of small investors or the patronage of large sponsors, such as corporate pension plans. In this competition, the winners generally are those with the best relative performance rates, which makes institutions highly cost-conscious. Given that activism will only rarely produce gains, and that when such gains occur they will be dispensed upon both the active and the passive, it makes little sense for cost-conscious money managers to incur the expense entailed in shareholder activism. Instead, they will remain passive in hopes of free riding on someone else’s activism. As in other free riding situations, because everyone is subject to and likely to yield to this temptation, the probability is that the good in question—here shareholder activism—will be under-produced.

In addition, corporate managers are well-positioned to buy off most institutional investors that attempt to act as monitors. Bank trust departments are an important class of institutional investors, but are unlikely to emerge as activists because their parent banks often have or anticipate commercial lending relationships with the firms they will purportedly monitor. Similarly, insurers “as purveyors of insurance products, pension plans, and other financial services to corporations, have reason to mute their corporate governance activities and be bought off.” Mutual fund families whose business includes managing private pension funds for corporations are subject to the same concern.

This leaves us with union and state and local pension funds, which in fact generally have been the most active institutions with respect to corporate governance issues. Unfortunately for the proponents of institutional investor activism, however, these are precisely the institutions most likely to use their position to self-deal—i.e., to take a non-pro rata share of the firms assets and earnings—or to otherwise reap private benefits not shared with other investors.

Put bluntly, passivity is inherent in the nature of the beast.

Actually, CEO pay is extremely LOW.

I remember reading that the median Fortune 500 CEO pay was somewhere around $4 million a year. Obviously that's a lot of gumballs, but if you compare that to the pay of partners at law firms or consulting firms (without even going into finance), it's extremely low.

A partner at a good firm makes $1-2 mil a year. This is less, but these guys have great job safety, compared with always shorter tenures for CEOs of public companies. And obviously, there's a much larger chance if you join a firm as a junior that you'll rise to partner than becoming CEO.

This is actually an important issue, that poses a credible threat to the strength of companies, and therefore the economy, because unless you have substantial equity interests, corporate leadership is unattractive. It seems to me that a smart, talented, experienced businessman creates more value for the economy as CEO of a large company than as a top consultant, yet most elite college graduates rarely aspire to the former.

It's not enough to say that CEO pay isn't too high. It's actually too low.

(Here's an idea: shouldn't CEOs unionize?)

I don't think there's a whole lot the government can do about my receding hairline

And here I thought you were for universal health care, which probably could do something about it.

I'm not asking 100% confiscation of all compensation above 200k, though I daresay that would finance a heckuva lot of worthwhile projects.

No it wouldn't. There would be no income over 200k. Why would any sane company pay the government for your time?

it's not merely because I wish I had that money instead of them

Not "merely"? More support for my thesis.

"The six-fold rise in CEO pay between 1980 and 2003 can be fully attributed to the six-fold increase in market capitalization of large companies during that period."

So what? What's the magic in this correlation?

Think stock options.

"The disease is over-reliance on the private sector to act in the best interests of society as a whole, which it is manifestly ill-equipped to do and in fact has incentives that are just the opposite."-liberalrob

And what about the incentives politicians and bureaucrats face? Have you thought about that? It is typical on the left to assume that people in the private sector are greedy corporate vultures, while their public sector counterparts are altruistic saints. Does that seem realistic? Have you ever heard of Public Choice Theory (for which James Buchanan won a Nobel Prize)?

"Here I am a Communist again. Maybe I'll do a blog post on that sometime. Been a while since I did one."-liberalrob, again

No, I've never accused you being a communist. I do accuse you of a failure to reflect deeply enough on the underlying causes of the Soviet Union's collapse. And your evident inability to answer a reasonable question ("why did the Soviet Union fail?") seems to confirm the accusation.

If you are interested in an honest intellectual discussion about economic policy, then I would be glad to have it with you. But you can't just dodge questions. If you refuse to answer questions, then it will be impossible to have a fruitful conversation with you.

And here I thought you were for universal health care, which probably could do something about it.

I doubt that.

Why would any sane company pay the government for your time?

Why would any sane company give Michael Eisner $800 million?

More support for my thesis.

I'm sure it's a doozy.


Jody,
Think stock options?! How do stock options change market capitalization, exactly?

"I'm not asking 100% confiscation of all compensation above 200k, though I daresay that would finance a heckuva lot of worthwhile projects."-liberalrob

Rob Lyman is right. The quote above illustrates that liberalrob doesn't understand basic economics. At a 100% marginal tax rate, people would just stop working (except under the table) and there would be little or no revenue.

That quote just shows exactly why liberalrob believes what he does. He doesn't understand incentives. He fails to see that higher tax rates discourage work. It's no wonder he can't explain why the Soviet Union failed.

Im not much of an economist but if CEO pay went up 6 times because the value of their companies went up 6 times does it also follow that those employees salaries would increase 6 times also?

Is it possible that those lawyers making 2 million a year are overpaid making the comparison invalid?

Steve

"When American companies take over companies abroad, suddenly their IT operation seems to improve dramatically. These differences may go a long way towards explaining the growth differentials between the two regions."

This is a very interesting theory, are there any articles or studies that have looked into this?

If you've regurgitated Harford's thesis correctly, I believe that Schumpeter made a very similar point.

As for what's different about today's CEOs, I'd chime in that the ability of the stock market to lop off a healthy chunk of market cap fairly quickly puts a high premium on communications management. Ask Jerry Yang.

Yancey Ward:
Buffet's point is that he pays more than almost any company. His point is that being part of a greater whole(the USA in this case) means that you pay your fair share in taxes.


Fred:
You are clueless about Buffet. His success is dependent upon being dispassionate. Just because he might have progressive/liberal meanings doesn't mean he lets it get in the way(After all, The Terminator was going to appoint Buffet as Calif. State Treasurer until CA state Republicans went nuts).

"What is Warren Buffett doing, specifically, to help rebuild New Orleans?"

I'm not sure why Buffett is obligated to help, "specifically", that one long-benighted town, but consider this.

1) Despite Buffett's lamentations about not paying enough in personal taxes, he rightfully brags about the amount of taxes his company Berkshire pays:

"Berkshire will pay about $4.4 billion in federal income tax on its 2006 earnings. In its last fiscal year the U.S. Government spent $2.6 trillion, or about $7 billion per day. Thus, for more than half of one day, Berkshire picked up the tab for all federal expenditures, ranging from Social Security and Medicare payments to the cost of our armed services. Had there been only 600 taxpayers like Berkshire, no one else in America would have needed to pay any federal income or payroll taxes."

Sounds like Buffett's company is paying its "fair share", no?

2) Buffett has donated literally thousands of times more money to charity than have Brad Pitt or Dennis Leary. He just gives it all to the Gates foundation, which would rather spend it in Africa than Louisiana.

"You are clueless about Buffet."

Considering you don't even know how his last name is spelled, I'd venture I know a little more about him than you. Buffett's decision to avoid the capital gains tax on his donations to the Gates Foundation has nothing to do with his success or being dispassionate. It's just a little bit of hypocrisy: despite his worries about not paying enough in taxes, he deliberately avoids paying taxes on these donations because he clearly thinks Bill and Melinda Gates will do a better job of spending his money than the Federal Government will.

That quote just shows exactly why liberalrob believes what he does. He doesn't understand incentives. He fails to see that higher tax rates discourage work. It's no wonder he can't explain why the Soviet Union failed.


Do you have any clue about what the history of tax rates in this country are? Especially the last 60 or so years. The high rates sure didn't effect prosperity during the 50's, did it(and don't assume I think 70% rates are a good thing)?

Mispelling his name has no bearing on whether you or I know more about him(through reading books, the WSJ or what have you). Nice try at redirect though. As has been pointed out elsewhere in the comment section, Buffett takes delight in the amount of taxes Berkshire Hathaway pays. He pays what he considers fair. Obviously he doesn't think other CEO's and corporate titans are paying their "fair share". I do have a question for you, and the other Megan fans here. What exactly do you think constitues fair? Given that you want to be part of this country, you have a duty to contribute to the welfare of said country. Or do you think you shouldn't have to contribute anything at all? You do realize the debt the Republicans ran up on the US's tab from George Bush's election in Novemeber 2000 until the Republicans lost control of Congress in the fall of 2006, right? How are you going to pay that off? Also, you do realize that your Randian hero, Greenspan, is partially responsible for the mess the economy is now going through, right?