Your Vegan news for the day

A friend emails to say that he was watching the Roger Clemens testimony while working today, and one of our beloved legislators asked Mr Clemens (for what reason I cannot imagine) if he was a vegan. Confused, Roger Clemens replied that no, he wasn't, and what's more, he had no idea what a vegan was.

Update: My friend informs me that there was a reason behind the question:

FYI, The reason Clemens was asked if he was a vegan was because Clemens had claimed that he had received/given himself injections of vitamin B-12 rather than steroids or HGH, and a skeptical Congressman was trying to establish why Clemens would have needed to receive B-12; that question was one of a series of questions in which the Congressman asked Clemens if he had been diagnosed with anemia, Alzheimer's (really - though given his testimony today, that might be plausible), was a vegetarian, etc. Clemens' answer was that his elderly mother had recommended that he take B-12.

There is much more about the relationship between B-12 and steroids, but that was why the question was asked.

Comments

It is all very well to say that individuals must wrestle with their consciences--but only if their consciences are awake and informed. Industrial society, alas, hides animals’ suffering.

For modern animal agriculture, the less the consumer knows about what’s happening before the meat hits the plate, the better.

If true, is this an ethical situation? Should we be reluctant to let people know what really goes on, because we’re not really proud of it and concerned that it might turn them to vegetarianism?

Peter Cheeke, PhD, Oregon St. U. Professor of Animal Agriculture, Contemporary Issues in Animal Agriculture, 2004 textbook

There’s a schizoid quality to our relationship with animals, in which sentiment and brutality exist side by side.

Half the dogs in America will receive Christmas presents this year, yet few of us pause to consider the miserable life of the pig--an animal easily as intelligent as a dog--that becomes the Christmas ham.

New York Times Magazine “An Animal’s Place”
by Michael Pollan, 11/10/02

Posted by Gore/Edwards 08 | February 13, 2008 3:13 PM

A pig's highest calling is to become bacon for my breakfast.

Posted by Rex | February 13, 2008 3:50 PM

I'm with Rex on this, the standard farm pig's existence, possibly as a species but at least locally as a population, rests solely on their being a market for his meat.

I've heard our esteemed hostess says she was a Utility Maximizer for animals: to support as many as possibly in a manner humanely as possible. I agree we could all attempt to push for better conditions through buying Certified Humane and Cruelty Free meats, but that is altogether different from not eating them.

I don't begrudge vegetarians (though I do dislike "fish or occasionally chicken" vegetarians) their eating habits. I am happy to accommodate vegans when need be. I just wish I was returned the favor.

Posted by Skullberg | February 13, 2008 4:26 PM

Classy rebuttal Rex. Perhaps the next time someone suggests that women still aren't treated equally in society, you can tell them they belong in the kitchen? Or maybe when Hispanics complain about being discriminated against in employment, you might be just the guy to tell them to mow your lawn.

Or perhaps you should think about offering at least one intelligent argument in your favor (good luck!), instead of patting yourself on the back just for being part of a privileged majority.

Posted by Alap | February 13, 2008 4:26 PM

So you're equating women and Hispanics with pigs, Alap? All that smugness... does it hurt?

Posted by John | February 13, 2008 4:44 PM

Q. What's a Vegan?

A. A liberal who's been smugged.

Posted by anony-mouse | February 13, 2008 4:53 PM

for being part of a privileged majority

As in, Homo Sapiens Sapiens? Kinda hard to imagine not being one. Perhaps if I were a Hindu (meaning religion, not nationality or language) I might appreciate the fine philosophical point.

Honestly, the egalitarian trend ought to stop somewhere. Are we going to fight discrimination against animals? Well, I guess some do already. In compensation, they could voluntarily become food...

Posted by ...Max... | February 13, 2008 4:54 PM

Doesn't the fact that vegans might need Vitamin B-12 injections make a rational person wonder whether veganism is a good idea? As the Mayo Clinic informs us:

Vitamin B12 deficiency Studies have shown that a deficiency of vitamin B12 can lead to abnormal neurologic and psychiatric symptoms. These symptoms may include: ataxia (shaky movements and unsteady gait), muscle weakness, spasticity, incontinence, hypotension, vision problems, dementia, psychoses, and mood disturbances. Researchers report that these symptoms may occur when vitamin B12 levels are just slightly lower than normal and are considerably above the levels normally associated with anemia. People at risk for vitamin B12 deficiency include strict vegetarians, elderly people..."

I advise you people to eat a piece of fish or chicken (or maybe even a t-bone steak) tonight. If you wish to persist in eating no meat, you are welcome to. But it doesn't make much sense to me.

Posted by rwe | February 13, 2008 4:55 PM

Incidentally, the Mayo Clinic's warning that strict vegetarianism can lead to abnormal psychological symptoms might exlplain a lot about certain contributors here. I won't mention any names, but you are welcome to guess (hint: rhymes with Mixter).

Posted by rwe | February 13, 2008 4:59 PM

When walking in the New Forest I've come across pigs at pannage. Alarmingly large they were, but happy as the obvious simile. Now, you'd eat their bacon wouldn't you, Megan?

Posted by dearieme | February 13, 2008 5:00 PM

rwe-

Or you can take a pill everyday called a 'vitamin.'

Posted by rickm | February 13, 2008 5:32 PM

"Or you can take a pill everyday called a 'vitamin.'"-rickm, my old pal

Or one could eat a balanced diet--a diet that includes meat, vegetables, fruit and bread (preferably whole wheat). The fact that a person needs supplements is an indication that there is something deficient in his diet (again, think 'rhymes with Bixner').

I am not tempted to become a vegetarian, but if others want to give up meat, they should be free to. I am for tolerance, autonomy and liberty.

Posted by rwe | February 13, 2008 5:46 PM

Waxman's committee had a bunch of doctors in yesterday to testify on steroids and HGH, and there was testimony that HGH on its own did relatively little to enhance performance; it had to be administered in conjunction with something else, such as an anabolic steroid, to have any effect. One of the combinations mentioned was HGH and B-12: which caught my attention due to Clemens' contention that he only was injected with B-12 and lidocaine. It's at least conceivable to me that Clemens might have thought he was just getting B-12 and lidocaine while McNamee was in fact injecting him with B-12 and HGH. That would be one way to square the conflicting testimony up to this point (I didn't hear today's hearing yet).

Posted by liberalrob | February 13, 2008 7:29 PM

If you went totally 100% vegan today, it would be FIVE years, typically, before your body started showing signs of B12 deficiency. Because B12 is fat soluble, it hangs around in your system for a very long time.

Listing the symptoms of B12 deficiency as an argument against vegetarianism or veganism is a scare tactic. Consuming animal flesh in the amount most Americans do hardly constitutes a "balanced diet", either.

Posted by benschon | February 13, 2008 7:44 PM

Excess B12 confers no medical benefit, and lidocaine is a local anaesthetic. If Clemens thought injecting these things into his buttocks would help him somehow, he is a complete idiot. Numbing his ass muscle helps add zip to his fastball?

To be fair, though, the issue is not so much whether Clemens is a complete idiot, but whether he is claiming to be as a way to cover up his lies about never taking HGH and steroids.

Posted by benschon | February 13, 2008 8:13 PM

Alap,

I make no apologies for what I said. And I don't have to make any arguments, either. Humans are on top of the food chain, and I don't have to argue that I have a right to eat pigs any more than a lion has to argue that he has a right to eat gazelles.

Posted by Rex | February 13, 2008 8:17 PM

I never tire of hearing the condescending "most Americans" anecdote followed or preceded by some judgment on excess suitable to biblical rants on Sodom and Gomorrah. I for one, what I consider a "typical American" (oooooh, snicker), and not the least ashamed of it, eat meat roughly three times a week. I don't know if that makes me a moderate or still a drooling glut on this spectrum of so-called civilization. Furthermore, whoever it is that makes these sweeping generalizations regarding "America" and it's awful meat laden binge, like we're at some banquet at the court of Caligula, have you ever BEEN to Europe. Have you traveled to Italy or France ... or GERMANY. I've seen meat lovers, and then I've seen meat lovers. In fact, no Italian meal, including lunch is remiss in some meat or fowl. In fact, when I was there last I happened to be with a vegetarian. He was met with baffling stares and confusion everywhere we went. One innkeeper couple remarked to me in Neapolitan dialect, "Everyone eats meat here, I've never had to cook for anyone like that before."

Second, I have a feeling that long ago, pigs were found to be easier to raise for livestock than dogs. They also provide more meat. In regards to the hypocrisy remark, I think it's just that pigs have a better yield, and they probably taste better. Though I've never had any dog. I'll be sure to try some if I ever go to the Philippines.

Posted by Peter | February 13, 2008 8:23 PM

I have been to all those countries you name, but that's irrelevant. Your anecdotal observations are contradicted by actual data. Look it up.

Per capita annual meat consumption, in kg:

U.S. = 124
France = 100
Italy = 91
Germany = 85

Posted by benschon | February 13, 2008 8:46 PM

"If you went totally 100% vegan today, it would be FIVE years, typically, before your body started showing signs of B12 deficiency."

Benschon, do you have a citation for that? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd like to see some evidence. If you don't have evidence, you shouldn't be making these claims.

Posted by rwe | February 13, 2008 8:57 PM

I thought that 124 kg seemed like a lot of meat, but breaking it down on a daily basis, it comes to 12 oz. per day on average. That still seems a little high, so I wonder how the stats were calculated.

The data I found shows 185 lbs of meat (red & fowl) per person for 2006. That's a far cry from 272 lbs (124 kg), and breaks down to 8.1 oz. per day, which is a much more reasonable number.

Posted by Rex | February 13, 2008 9:24 PM

Oh, I almost forgot. The 185 lbs is boneless weight.

Posted by Rex | February 13, 2008 9:27 PM

benschon --

First, anecdotal evidence is part of understanding the whole truth, only part of which statistics can account for. The predominant meat in Europe, ESPECIALLY Italy and Germany is pork, rather than beef. This naturally raises certain problems when relying on data that purely takes into account weight, as pork is significantly less heavy than beef, due to its higher fat content. Another flaw in looking slavishly at statistics when comparing AVERAGES of a nation (USA) that is easily fifty times the size of that which it is being compared to, and infinitely more diverse in its population density and demographics, is that certain errors are bound to occur.

NAMELY: In two data sets, one small and one large, if each set has the same proportion of figures, one will always get a larger average from the larger data set - meaning, when dealing with vaster quantities in averaging a set, there is a higher chance of lower numbers being omitted as outliers.

Posted by Peter | February 13, 2008 9:52 PM

Reliable Vegan Sources of Vitamin B12

A number of reliable vegan food sources for vitamin B12 are known. One brand of nutritional yeast, Red Star T-6635+, has been tested and shown to contain active vitamin B12. ... It is a reliable source of vitamin B12. Nutritional yeast, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, is a food yeast, grown on a molasses solution, which comes as yellow flakes or powder. It has a cheesy taste. Nutritional yeast is different from brewer’s yeast or torula yeast. those sensitive to other yeasts can often use it...

http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm#reliable

So if you're going Vegan, make sure to eat plenty of bread, and drink plenty of beer.

Posted by Ryan W. | February 13, 2008 11:45 PM

I wonder if any athlete ever was given a B-12 shot. Way back before steroids, B-12 was the euphemism for amphetimines. Then it was a euphemism for steroids, then HGH.

You'd think they'd come up with a new cover story by now.

Posted by Njorl | February 14, 2008 10:05 AM

"There is some evidence that intramuscular injections of 5mg of vitamin B12 given twice per week might improve the general well being and happiness of patients complaining of tiredness or fatigue. However, fatigue has many potential causes. Well designed clinical trials are needed before a recommendation can be made."-Mayo Clinic, link given above

So there is some reason for people to believe that B12 shots would give them a boost.

Posted by rwe | February 14, 2008 12:05 PM

We can quarrel about which data source to use, or whether "pork is less heavy than beef" (what the heck?). But is there really any question that Americans, on average, eat significantly more meat than citizens of nearly every other country in the world? Or that this quantity of meat is in excess of the ideal amount for human health?

I was mistaken about the solubility of B12, and may have exaggerated the length of time it would take for B12 deficiency to set in. Still, my point still holds: you have enough B12 in your body to go cold turkey on it and not notice a thing for "several years."

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/patient-vitaminb12.html

But hey, if you and Roger Clemens want to shoot vitamins into your asses, I'm all in favor. Knock yourselves out.

Posted by benschon | February 14, 2008 2:07 PM

Well, on the B-12 topic. I'd just like to say that I am a very fit 38 year old male. Low body fat, 8%. After reading the china study I cut meat cold. I have been off of dairy for over 2 years. But I must say that after cutting meat I began to feel not as strong as i usual do. I lost about 10lbs in 5 months. At about the 4 months I start to notice slight tremor's in my hands. Turns out my B-12 levels were low, I even tried sublingual B-12....no injections for this cat! There's no way I'm going to inject my self with a needle for the rest of my life! Any how a couple weeks ago I had my first t-bone steak in a long time...tremors are gone. I limit my intake of meat to a couple times a week....i think with everything in life moderation is the key...find what works for you and stick with it!

Posted by chad | May 4, 2008 9:00 PM