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Does Hugo Chavez help the poor?

07 Mar 2008 02:01 pm

The usual defense of Chavez, to the extent that there is one, is that he may be wrecking his country's economy, but at least he's helping the poor. Foreign Affairs has an essay by Francisco Rodriguez, the chief economist of the Venezuelan National Assembly from 2000 to 2004, saying that no, Chavez isn't doing that, either:

Views differ on how desirable the consequences of many of these reforms are, but a broad consensus appears to have emerged around the idea that they have at least brought about a significant redistribution of the country's wealth to its poor majority. The claim that Chávez has brought tangible benefits to the Venezuelan poor has indeed by now become commonplace, even among his critics. In a letter addressed to President George W. Bush on the eve of the 2006 Venezuelan presidential elections, Jesse Jackson, Cornel West, Dolores Huerta, and Tom Hayden wrote, "Since 1999, the citizens of Venezuela have repeatedly voted for a government that -- unlike others in the past -- would share their country's oil wealth with millions of poor Venezuelans." The Nobel laureate economist Joseph Stiglitz has noted, "Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez seems to have succeeded in bringing education and health services to the barrios of Caracas, which previously had seen little of the benefits of that country's rich endowment of oil." Even The Economist has written that "Chávez's brand of revolution has delivered some social gains."

One would expect such a consensus to be backed up by an impressive array of evidence. But in fact, there is remarkably little data supporting the claim that the Chávez administration has acted any differently from previous Venezuelan governments -- or, for that matter, from those of other developing and Latin American nations -- in redistributing the gains from economic growth to the poor. One oft-cited statistic is the decline in poverty from a peak of 54 percent at the height of the national strike in 2003 to 27.5 percent in the first half of 2007. Although this decline may appear impressive, it is also known that poverty reduction is strongly associated with economic growth and that Venezuela's per capita GDP grew by nearly 50 percent during the same time period -- thanks in great part to a tripling of oil prices. The real question is thus not whether poverty has fallen but whether the Chávez government has been particularly effective at converting this period of economic growth into poverty reduction. One way to evaluate this is by calculating the reduction in poverty for every percentage point increase in per capita income -- in economists' lingo, the income elasticity of poverty reduction. This calculation shows an average reduction of one percentage point in poverty for every percentage point in per capita GDP growth during this recovery, a ratio that compares unfavorably with those of many other developing countries, for which studies tend to put the figure at around two percentage points. Similarly, one would expect pro-poor growth to be accompanied by a marked decrease in income inequality. But according to the Venezuelan Central Bank, inequality has actually increased during the Chávez administration, with the Gini coefficient (a measure of economic inequality, with zero indicating perfect equality and one indicating perfect inequality) increasing from 0.44 to 0.48 between 2000 and 2005.

Poverty and inequality statistics, of course, tell only part of the story. There are many aspects of the well-being of the poor not captured by measures of money income, and this is where Chávez's supporters claim that the government has made the most progress -- through its misiones, which have concentrated on the direct provision of health, education, and other basic public services to poor communities. But again, official statistics show no signs of a substantial improvement in the well-being of ordinary Venezuelans, and in many cases there have been worrying deteriorations. The percentage of underweight babies, for example, increased from 8.4 percent to 9.1 percent between 1999 and 2006. During the same period, the percentage of households without access to running water rose from 7.2 percent to 9.4 percent, and the percentage of families living in dwellings with earthen ?oors multiplied almost threefold, from 2.5 percent to 6.8 percent. In Venezuela, one can see the misiones everywhere: in government posters lining the streets of Caracas, in the ubiquitous red shirts issued to program participants and worn by government supporters at Chávez rallies, in the bloated government budget allocations. The only place where one will be hard-pressed to find them is in the human development statistics.

Remarkably, given Chávez's rhetoric and reputation, official figures show no significant change in the priority given to social spending during his administration. The average share of the budget devoted to health, education, and housing under Chávez in his first eight years in office was 25.12 percent, essentially identical to the average share (25.08 percent) in the previous eight years. And it is lower today than it was in 1992, the last year in office of the "neoliberal" administration of Carlos Andrés Pérez -- the leader whom Chávez, then a lieutenant colonel in the Venezuelan army, tried to overthrow in a coup, purportedly on behalf of Venezuela's neglected poor majority.

This is actually a broad lesson about governments everywhere: we give them too much credit for economic growth (and economic decline). It's safe to say that Chavez has done absolutely nothing to produce the tripling in oil prices that are boosting his economy and reducing poverty; in fact, oil production has fallen dramatically on his watch, thanks to mismanagement of PDVSA, the state owned oil company, which has gone from "best in class" to subpar in a few short years.

I confess I was surprised by this; it's a commonplace among energy people that PDVSA is suffering in part because its investment funds have been transferred to the poor. Now I don't know where they've gone.

Comments (197)

Chavez, much like Castro, gets credit in spite of the evidence because he tickles ears with populist rhetoric, and the statistics, as always, can be spun to fit a certain picture if that's the picture one is looking for.

Howver, the overal economic and HDI picture of Venezuela appears to be that of a country deteriorating, much like the overall economic and HDI picture of Cuba has been one of a country that stagnated at a low level, while Dear Populist Leader makes out like a bandit on the side.

So, mouse-with-underscores, are we to understand that despite the punctuation change, you are the same improbably young engineer who has been writing curmudgeonly comments since the Live at the WTC days?

Gee, I dunno. Does Robert Mugabe help the poor?

Zimbabwe was once a fairly well-to-do place. 25 years of caudillo socialism has rendered it a pestilential hellhole. Venezuela also used to be near the top of its region in standard of living. Not now. If Chavez is "fortunate" enough to match Mugabe's tenure in office I predict present-day Zimbabwean living standards will by then apply in Venezuela. Things seem to be moving swiftly in that direction even as we speak.

As to where the money has gone, that's no mystery, really. There are the usual secret offshore accounts, of course, but Chavez fancies himself the second coming of Simon Bolivar. He figures to "liberate" himself a new "Bolivarian" superstate by conquering all of his contiguous neighbors. He recently bought two dozen Russian fighter jets and lots of other military hardware. Aggressive socialist states always have big military establishments. It's what they do.

It's now2008 and we have decades of data and scores of nations to examine the benefits and costs of socialism and communism. We can point to dozens of nations that have been nearly destroyed by these economic policies (even if you don't yet count Venezuela as one).

Can anyone point to a country that has been destroyed by capitalism?

And before you answer, note that you should exclude both mercantilism masquerading as capitalism and anarchy from lack of law and order or black markets.

Nessuno,

Well, Russia suffered a bit in the early days after the fall of Communism. But the corruption was really bad, so I don't know if that would count.

As far as where the money is going, I'm thinking some has ended up with FARC, some in Bolivia, and some in Cuba.

Can anyone point to a country that has been destroyed by capitalism?
And before you answer, note that you should exclude both mercantilism masquerading as capitalism and anarchy from lack of law and order or black markets.

You should not exclude "anarchy from lack of law and order". If a significant segment of the population have no stake in society due to inequality in wealth resulting from capitalism, then the resultant anarchy is due to capitalism. In Weimar Germany capitalism failed to provide the bulk of the populous a stake in society.

At its inception, social spending was high in order to undercut the communists. When the depression hit, the communists were very weak politically. The capitalist dominated conservative party insisted on drastic cuts to social spending in order to promote growth. Aside from being wrong about that, they did not realize how much it empowered the existing right-wing extremists.

Granted, Weimar Germany had an uphill struggle, but they had better circumstances then post WWI Russia or Post WWII China. Certainly, communism has a much worse track record, but capitalism does fail as well.

Rodriguez is a well known disgruntled fraud, who makes a fine living now cherry picking data and ignoring the mountains of evidence to the contrary in Venezuela. Those who think Venezuela is falling apart or declining in any way are badly misinformed.

Since just 2003, after the opposition tried to sabotage the economy, Venezuela has grown its GDP by more than a whopping 76%. Social spending has increased by 314% and poverty decreased by almost 40%. The unemployment rate has been cut in half, standing at 6.2% today. Extreme poverty has declined the most as incomes of the poorest 20% have mroe than doubled. And for those of you who care about such things, the private sector is a larger share of the economy than it was before President Chávez took office. All this was reported by the US based Center for Economic and Policy Research.

Nessuno, if we were to count the lives destroyed by capitalism and capitalist imperialism the figure would be in the hundreds of millions. Nevermind the effect on the environment our business first policies are having. Capitalism destroyed countless American cities and small towns and is now moving out to new areas as the mortgage crisis spreads.

Rodriguez is a well known disgruntled fraud, who makes a fine living now cherry picking data and ignoring the mountains of evidence to the contrary in Venezuela. Those who think Venezuela is falling apart or declining in any way are badly misinformed.

Since just 2003, after the opposition tried to sabotage the economy, Venezuela has grown its GDP by more than a whopping 76%. Social spending has increased by 314% and poverty decreased by almost 40%. The unemployment rate has been cut in half, standing at 6.2% today. Extreme poverty has declined the most as incomes of the poorest 20% have mroe than doubled. And for those of you who care about such things, the private sector is a larger share of the economy than it was before President Chávez took office. All this was reported by the US based Center for Economic and Policy Research.

Nessuno, if we were to count the lives destroyed by capitalism and capitalist imperialism the figure would be in the hundreds of millions. Nevermind the effect on the environment our business first policies are having. Capitalism destroyed countless American cities and small towns and is now moving out to new areas as the mortgage crisis spreads. Neo-liberal policies have been a monumental failure in Africa and Latin America. Just compare the astounding growth rate and development in LA during the socialist policies of the 50s-1975 verus the almost 0% growth in the 25 years after. There must be a new socialism, and Venezeula is showing the way with its focus on control of natural resources, cooperatives and citizen participation.

Nessuno, if we were to count the lives destroyed by capitalism and capitalist imperialism the figure would be in the hundreds of millions.

So, roughtly the number that communism literally killed, then? In all seriousness, who are these people? They must have been made worse off by capitalism, keep in mind; if they were subsistence farmers before, the fact that they have lousy factory jobs now doesn't mean their lives have been "destroyed."

Capitalism destroyed countless American cities and small towns and is now moving out to new areas as the mortgage crisis spreads.

Funny, some people might say that capitalism built those cities, but I guess not. We would have been much better off living in Soviet-designed apartment blocks than buying our own places in the free market, I guess.

I can think of a couple of other places where Venezuela's oil revenues have gone: into Argentine sovereign debt and into subsidized heating oil to support Joe Kennedy's charity/sinecure.

The WSJ also had an article recently about some of the collectivist rural 'cooperatives' that PDVSA has been forced to buy stuff from.

"Capitalism destroyed countless American cities and small towns and is now moving out to new areas as the mortgage crisis spreads."

The mortgage industry in America has had a gigantic level of government involvement: from the implicit subsidies of the mortgage interest tax deduction, to the de facto elimination of capital gains taxes on primary home sales, to the implicit subsidy of loose monetary policy, to the secondary market in mortgages created by the Government-Sponsored Entities. If it didn't, mortgage rates would probably have probably averaged 9% over the last several years instead of 6%, 33% of Americans would be homeowners instead of 66%, home prices would be more inline with average incomes, and there'd be no "crisis" of people at risk of losing homes they were never able to afford in the first place.

it's a commonplace among energy people that PDVSA is suffering in part because its investment funds have been transferred to the poor. Now I don't know where they've gone.

Empire building amongst the government/ not-really-government bureaucracy I imagine. That is where the money usually goes, after all.

Put another way: it is subsidising inefficient government. There is always an unlimited demand for that.

Njorl,

The capitalist dominated conservative party insisted on drastic cuts to social spending in order to promote growth. Aside from being wrong about that, they did not realize how much it empowered the existing right-wing extremists

If by "right-wing", you mean Nazis, then you are participating in the big lie. The Nationalist Socialists (Nazis), like all statist totalitarians, belong to the left. No matter how long the left has tried to pretend otherwise.

Oil is over $100 a barrell and there are food shortages in Venezuela. That is all you need to know about socialism.

Njor1 --
Weimar Germany inherited its economic structure from the Empire -- capitalist in form, but really having a high level of central control managed by a few large banks working hand in hand with the state. In WW I the Germans invented "war socialism" so assiduously copied by the Bolsheviks. Also, the policy of the Weimar government to rapidly inflate its currency as an offshoot of the French/Belgian occupation of the Ruhr destroyed the life savings of middle and working classes and seriously dislocated an already shaky economy. Capitalism did not fail in Germany -- the German political culture failed.

Nessuno --
Capitalism means private property, individual rights and the rule of law. That is why capitalism is most associated with liberal democracy. Liberal democracies do not go to war with each other -- the more liberal the society the harder it is to get it to go to war. Classical imperialism was not about markets. No imperialist country made a profit on any of its colonies -- though individual imperialists did. Hence a british liberal's complaint that the empire was "a vast system of outdoor relief for the aristocratic classes" -- outdoor relief being the 19th century britishism for workfare/welfare.

True capitalism eliminates poverty and other social ills like racism. Jim Crow laws were passed in the south in the late 19th century because blacks -- although politically disenfranchised -- were beginning to compete successfuly in what was still a fairly free economy.

Regards

"if we were to count the lives destroyed by capitalism and capitalist imperialism the figure would be in the hundreds of millions."

Heh.

"Capitalism destroyed countless American cities and small towns"

Funny. I've lived here all my life, and in my ~40 years I've never seen a single small town (I live in one) or city (I visit many of them often) destroyed by ANYTHING, much less capitalism. As a matter of fact, most of the towns around here wouldn't be there if it wasn't for capitalim building the businesses that provide the work for the people there. Like the owner of my company. As a matter of further fact, capitalism is the primary reason I will have a restful, rewarding retirement in about 20 years.

Hugo, is that you trolling the blogs?

It's hard to evaluate Hugo Chavez with all the propaganda flying back and forth. I've long regarded him as perhaps the biggest hero on the planet for his forthright condemnation of George W. Bush - the most hated person in the world (and deservedly so) - and for his efforts to free not just Venezuela but all of Latin America from corporate bondage and "Yankee imperialism."

No sane person can argue with those goals, which have most recently spawned a confrontation with Exxon, one of the most corrupt and destructive corporations in the world. Only a free market wh*re would back Exxon in this dispute.

Unfortunately, it's sometimes hard to know if Chavez really walks the talk, or if he's merely exploiting class struggle and freedom for political gain. Even if he is serious, does he have sufficient common sense to get the job done, or is he TOO socialist or too erratic?

In summary, I praise Chavez for calling a spade a spade (or worse, in George W. Bush's case), for forcing foreign oil corporations to pay fair share, for persuading other Latin American nations to break free of the U.S. and for such brilliant ideas a Telesur.

Evaluating him in other areas is more difficult, but you have to admit he has a very difficult job. Assuming Chavez is genuine and really is trying to help the poor, how can you do that with the world's most powerful nation meddling in your nation's affairs, sowing dissent and arming your neighbor (Colombia)? And how can you count on hearing the truth about it all in the corporate media?

The last time I ran for public office, I used my campaign to support Chavez. I'm now running for office again, and I'll once again publicly display my support.

Viva Chavez!

It's hard to evaluate Hugo Chavez with all the propaganda flying back and forth. I've long regarded him as perhaps the biggest hero on the planet for his forthright condemnation of George W. Bush - the most hated person in the world (and deservedly so) - and for his efforts to free not just Venezuela but all of Latin America from corporate bondage and "Yankee imperialism."

No sane person can argue with those goals, which have most recently spawned a confrontation with Exxon, one of the most corrupt and destructive corporations in the world. Only a free market wh*re would back Exxon in this dispute.

Unfortunately, it's sometimes hard to know if Chavez really walks the talk, or if he's merely exploiting class struggle and freedom for political gain. Even if he is serious, does he have sufficient common sense to get the job done, or is he TOO socialist or too erratic?

In summary, I praise Chavez for calling a spade a spade (or worse, in George W. Bush's case), for forcing foreign oil corporations to pay fair share, for persuading other Latin American nations to break free of the U.S. and for such brilliant ideas a Telesur.

Evaluating him in other areas is more difficult, but you have to admit he has a very difficult job. Assuming Chavez is genuine and really is trying to help the poor, how can you do that with the world's most powerful nation meddling in your nation's affairs, sowing dissent and arming your neighbor (Colombia)? And how can you count on hearing the truth about it all in the corporate media?

The last time I ran for public office, I used my campaign to support Chavez. I'm now running for office again, and I'll once again publicly display my support.

Viva Chavez!

I've long regarded him as perhaps the biggest hero on the planet for his forthright condemnation of George W. Bush

Oh come on. Castro and Imanutjob or whatever his name is both condemn Bush, too, not to mention innumerable Prius drivers, who do it without the benefit of being heads of state.

David Blomstrom -

If you're running for public office and making support for Chavez part of your campaign, shouldn't you actually visit Venezuela first? Try to buy milk there (no, not in a fancy hotel, but the way a real resident would have to, in an average neighborhood). Talk to the people standing in line with little hope of getting a pint of milk today or any time in the next week, and see if their joy at Chavez's crude verbal attacks on others is sufficient to make them stop wanting access to basic foodstuffs.

You support Chavez because he says things that you like, and as for the result of his actions, you say 'oh, well, evaluating actions is hard, so I think I'll stick to judging him on his words alone, and on who he hates' (a paraphrase, obviously, but a pretty good summary of your message). Shouldn't you look some of the Venezuelan poor in the eye before you applaud Chavez based on his words alone, regardless of results?

Anthony said it best:

"Oil is over $100 a barrell and there are food shortages in Venezuela. That is all you need to know about socialism."

It's also all you need to know about Chavez.

Rodriguez is a well known disgruntled fraud, who makes a fine living now cherry picking data and ignoring the mountains of evidence to the contrary in Venezuela.

Evidence?

You wrote, "Oh come on. Castro and Imanutjob or whatever his name is both condemn Bush, too, not to mention innumerable Prius drivers, who do it without the benefit of being heads of state."

That's just the point. Millions of people around the world - including Prius drivers - hate Bush and don't hesitate to say so. But how many public leaders have the courage to speak the simple truth about the world's #1 terrorist? Castro, Chavez, maybe a handful of others.

That alone merits admiration. But does Chavez do more than talk? Well, he's certainly taken a stand against the same oil corporations that scr*w U.S. citizens, with George Bush's blessing. You do the math.

Ann wrote, "You support Chavez because he says things that you like, and as for the result of his actions, you say 'oh, well, evaluating actions is hard, so I think I'll stick to judging him on his words alone, and on who he hates' (a paraphrase, obviously, but a pretty good summary of your message)."

I said evaluating the RESULTS is hard. I admire some of Chavez' actions, like taking a stand against Exxon, establishing Telesur and helping other Latin American nations break free of "Yankee imperialism."

"Shouldn't you look some of the Venezuelan poor in the eye before you applaud Chavez based on his words alone, regardless of results?"

I could throw that back in your face. Shouldn't YOU look Venezuela's poor in the face before defending George W. Bush?

In the meantime, you claim Venezuelans have a hard time buying milk. And we should believe you because...?

Anthony wrote, "Oil is over $100 a barrell and there are food shortages in Venezuela. That is all you need to know about socialism."

No, that is not all you need to know about socialism. That's like saying Enron, Haliburton and Microsoft are all you need to know about capitalism.

Socialism comes in many flavors, with definitions ranging from economics to social justice. I happen to believe in a mixed economy, combining capitalism and socialism. Or, to put it another way, I prefer capitalism with accountability, which many right-wingers define as "socialism."

Wow. I hit your website there David. Is there anyone you DO like? Other than Chavez and Muslims, of course. So how does one use his campaign to the local school board to support Chavez? That must have been interesting. God help those poor kids if you ever do actually win something. I think even in Seattle though, the majority of the voters are smarter than that. Good luck with that whole crazy thing you got going on.

sowing dissent

Isn't dissent patriotic, David?

Njorl,

You should not exclude "anarchy from lack of law and order". If a significant segment of the population have no stake in society due to inequality in wealth resulting from capitalism, then the resultant anarchy is due to capitalism.

In cases where the society started as stable capitalism then went to anarchy, you'd have a point, but I can't think of an example of this off-hand. Societies without enforcable property rights shouldn't be considered capitalist - after the collapse of property rights you've got a different economic system.

Also, I'm not that knowledgeable of German history, but I don't think that the Weimar Republic is a clear example of a failed capitalist state, let alone one that was destroyed by capitalism. I think the SDP (democratic socialists) was the most powerful party during the Republic (and more politically successful than the NVP and the other liberal (in the European sense) parties) and was a major player in most of the parlimentary coalitions. I wouldn't say that the Weimar Republic was socialist either - the coalitions were largely assembled based support for the existence of republican government (due to it never being particular stable in the first place with substantial right and left-wing challenges to it at various times), so the government never seemed to fall clearly into one economic approach or another with the actual policy varying greatly depending on the specific composition of the ruling coalition.

I'd have gone with the decline of the Dutch Republic, which was more convincingly capitalist despite some notable government-granted monopolies and was ultimately crippled military by overextending itself playing the empire game, which was at least in part motivated by their interest in trade with the East, allowing a French invasion to succeed.

There are a lot of people who assume that anyone who screws the rich must be helping the poor. The reasoning, I guess, is that they see the economy as a zero-sum game, so if the rich take it in the shorts then it must be happy times for the needy.

In reality, of course, the economy isn't zero-sum; it is possible for everyone to win, and possible for everyone to lose. Governments are a lot better at arranging for the latter.

(posted this in the wrong thread originally)

Buzz wrote, "Wow. I hit your website there David. Is there anyone you DO like? Other than Chavez and Muslims, of course."

Well, I think it's pretty obvious where you're coming from. Can't you right-wingers be less transparent?

But to answer your question, there really aren't many people I admire, at least not many high profile people. Given that corporate corruption is this generation's most urgent issue, it's kind of hard to admire anyone who isn't speaking out against corporate corruption.

And how can any sane, caring person not despise George W. Bush?

To put it another way, what was the big lesson the world supposedly learned in the 1940's? DON'T APPEASE DICTATORS.

Yet leaders around the world do Bush's bidding, with Hugo Chavez a rare exception. And if you think Muslims are the only people who support Chavez, let me give you a clue: Unlike George W. Bush, Chavez was fairly elected, and most Venezuelans are not Muslim.

But how many public leaders have the courage to speak the simple truth about the world's #1 terrorist?

It's true that few other people are willing to admit that Bush is Satan, despite clear evidence.

And how can any sane, caring person not despise George W. Bush?

Granting for the moment that non-despisers are either insane or uncaring, it doesn't follow that Chavez or Castro are heroes for hating Bush, does it? Hitler didn't leave it at mere words--he actually went to war with Stalin, but I'm not sure I'd declare him a great hero for his opposition to Soviet imperialism.

Some of Bush's enemies are surely lousy people themselves.

Rob Lyman wrote, "It's true that few other people are willing to admit that Bush is Satan, despite clear evidence."

I have no problem with calling Bush "satan" any more than I object to people calling him the anti-Christ or comparing him with Adolph Hitler.

However, Chavez has done more than compare Bush to Satan. He suggested that Bush might have been behind the 9/11 terrorist attacks, an idea many U.S. citizens agree with (myself included). I'm pretty sure he's labeled Bush a terrorist. I'm not sure if he's ever called him a war criminal, but he probably has.

"Granting for the moment that non-despisers are either insane or uncaring, it doesn't follow that Chavez or Castro are heroes for hating Bush, does it? Hitler didn't leave it at mere words--he actually went to war with Stalin, but I'm not sure I'd declare him a great hero for his opposition to Soviet imperialism."

Hitler wasn't a sworn enemy of "Soviet imperialism." He was a war criminal who wanted to conquer more territory. End of story.

"Some of Bush's enemies are surely lousy people themselves."

Of course, chief among them the Democrats (though most elected Democrats don't really qualify as Bush haters).

So you scored a point: There are some jerks in this world who hate George W. Bush, just as there are jerks who hate Adolph Hitler. What a brilliant concept.

"Unlike George W. Bush, Chavez was fairly elected"

Wow, I give up. If this is your reality, we'll never get anywhere. But if you ever actually went to Venezuela, you'd see the shortages of basic foodstuffs for yourself. And Chavez's 'taking a stand against Exxon' was just plain old-fashioned looting. Do you also admire street muggers (as long as they shout obscenities about Bush while waving their guns, of course)?

David, you still haven't responded to my asking if dissent was patriotic. The reason I ask is that you're running for school board, and you seem to be very worried about dissent, which is apparently being sown (surely no one would object to Chavez' Bolivarization campaign--it must be coming from splitters or outsiders). What do you plan to do about sown dissent when you are elected?

ME: ""Unlike George W. Bush, Chavez was fairly elected"

ANN: "Wow, I give up. If this is your reality, we'll never get anywhere."

It's not just MY reality. Venezuelan elections are hardly secret affairs. And if Chavez was UNFAIRLY elected, where's the international condemnation? The criticism I hear comes mostly from right-wing kooks based in the USA.

"But if you ever actually went to Venezuela, you'd see the shortages of basic foodstuffs for yourself."

So say all the right-wing kooks. Others say just the opposite. But we should believe Ann because...?

"And Chavez's 'taking a stand against Exxon' was just plain old-fashioned looting. Do you also admire street muggers (as long as they shout obscenities about Bush while waving their guns, of course)?"

Yes, you can always score points with mindless hyperbole.

First, Exxon and other foreign corporations mugged VENEZUELANS, just as they mug U.S. citizens. Or maybe you'd like to tell us about all the wonderful things Exxon has done for Iraqi civlians?

Leave it to a right-winger to promote the biggest filfth on the planet as somehow righteous, or at worst an innocent victim. Sheez.

Scone wrote, "David, you still haven't responded to my asking if dissent was patriotic. The reason I ask is that you're running for school board, and you seem to be very worried about dissent, which is apparently being sown (surely no one would object to Chavez' Bolivarization campaign--it must be coming from splitters or outsiders). What do you plan to do about sown dissent when you are elected?"

Following your line of reasoning, we might dismiss Jews who hate Nazis as unpatriotic dissenters. To put it another way, I think you're confusing dissent with propaganda.

As they say, "Dissent is essential." But it really helps if the dissent is accurate and channeled in the right direction.

Hitler wasn't a sworn enemy of "Soviet imperialism."

Well, he was certainly a sworn enemy of communism in general, which, of course, he blamed on the Jews.

But that said, The "greatest hero on the planet" thing is bugging me. I think that Ahmadinejad has at the very least matched Chavez in anti-Bush rhetoric ("terrorist," "war criminal," opposition to American imperialism, etc), and Saddam did very well in his day as well. So I'm struggling to see what sets Chavez apart from these guys, rhetoric-wise, so as to make him a planetary hero.

Reading comprehension check: I never said there are jerks who hate Hitler. I said that hating Stalin isn't enough to qualify you as a non-jerk. And thus hating Bush probably shouldn't be the principal qualification the planet's greatest hero.

Folks interested in an eyewitness account of the food shortage crisis in Venezuela should take a look at this article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/08/AR2007020801240.html

As they say, "Dissent is essential." But it really helps if the dissent is accurate and channeled in the right direction.

I see, dissent is OK, even essential, as long as it's not wrong or "sown" (otherwise it's "propaganda"). So you plan on "channeling" it in the right direction on the school board. I didn't think dissent could be "channeled" but no doubt you already have the speech code written up to solve this difficult problem. Could we get an example of what you would propose if a student were to submit to--or engage in--propaganda?

av2ts must be smoking crack.... I've been to Venezuela several times. Chavez and this so called 21st Century Socialism is nothing but the same old Marxist recipe for failure. Venezuela's crime rate has skyrocketed... It highest murder rate in the Western hemisphere... Widespread food shortages... increadible inflation and the strong Bolivar is anything but.
Controlled capitalism has.. Neoliberalism has been much more successful than Communism, rapped in socialist paper.

Most South American countries are failing due to a culture of corruption and self-importance, and the lake of civility.

Rob Lyman wrote, "Well, he [Hitler] was certainly a sworn enemy of communism in general, which, of course, he blamed on the Jews."

Rob, please get a clue: Hitler wasn't fighting for a noble cause. He was a fascist, a Nazi, a megalomaniac, get it? He probably would have invaded Russia if it was a nation of capitalist pigs.

"But that said, The 'greatest hero on the planet' thing is bugging me. . . . So I'm struggling to see what sets Chavez apart from these guys [Ahmadinejad and Saddam Hussein], rhetoric-wise, so as to make him a planetary hero."

I don't know what to think about Ahmadinejad. He seems like a very intelligent person, and he's certainly no coward. However, he's too authoritarian to merit hero status in most people's eyes. Saddam Hussein was a true dictator - and a very cruel one. He also had some very evil friends, notably Republicans.

"Reading comprehension check: I never said there are jerks who hate Hitler. I said that hating Stalin isn't enough to qualify you as a non-jerk. And thus hating Bush probably shouldn't be the principal qualification the planet's greatest hero."

Comprehension Check: I never said hating Bush was Chavez' principal qualification. I listed several things I admire Chavez for.

David Blomstrom writes:

Evaluating him [Chavez} in other areas is more difficult, but you have to admit he has a very difficult job.

No. He took over a relatively well off, peaceful country. The major commodity, oil, is hitting all time high prices. His predecessors weren't all that popular.

As far as head of state gigs go, his should be about as easy as it gets.

DJ wrote, "Folks interested in an eyewitness account of the food shortage crisis in Venezuela should take a look at this article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/08/AR2007020801240.html"

Now there's a credible source - the Washington "Let's Invade Iraq!" Post.

One of the few bright spots in Iraqnam was during the invasion when some the Iraqis greased some Washington Post columnist. I can't think of his name offhand, but he was a right-wing crank. I cheered when I heard the news. :)

One of the few bright spots in Iraqnam was during the invasion when some the Iraqis greased some Washington Post columnist. I can't think of his name offhand, but he was a right-wing crank. I cheered when I heard the news. :)

You're also in favor of killing journalists? Are you going to put that on your campaign website?

Scone wrote, "I see, dissent is OK, even essential, as long as it's not wrong or "sown" (otherwise it's "propaganda").

Let me put it another way: There's dissent, propaganda and BS (which is often a form of propaganda).

I believe dissent should generally be tolerated (it's called free speech), and when a corrupt government (e.g. George Bush, Inc.) succeeds in stifling dissent (e.g. in the wake of 9/11), then trouble is sure to follow (as we've all seen).

But do I believe that everyone who claims to be a dissenter is on the level?

No, I'm not that stupid. I've met plenty of "activists" who were working for Microsoft.

"So you plan on "channeling" it in the right direction on the school board."

I'll never serve on the Seattle School Board. Legislation is being crafted that would abolish our elected school board. I guess the corporations that run the school district can't stand dissent.

I never said hating Bush was Chavez' principal qualification. I listed several things I admire Chavez for.

Rob, please get a clue: Hitler wasn't fighting for a noble cause.

I don't believe I've said he was. But, see, he said he was fighting for a noble cause, just like Chavez does.

I never said hating Bush was Chavez' principal qualification. I listed several things I admire Chavez for.

Well, what you said was:

I've long regarded him as perhaps the biggest hero on the planet for his forthright condemnation of George W. Bush - the most hated person in the world (and deservedly so) - and for his efforts to free not just Venezuela but all of Latin America from corporate bondage and "Yankee imperialism."

So you put "forthright condemnation" first, which I found suggestive. And as as I've pointed out, Ahmadinejad seems to qualify on all three of those standards, too. He may be "too authoritarian" for you, but Chavez is not exactly Mr. Civil Liberties here.

My point, simply put, is that talk is cheap. Just because you hate Bush--or from the looks of it, most American politicians--doesn't mean that you should make common cause with those who hate Bush.

Scone wrote, "You're also in favor of killing journalists? Are you going to put that on your campaign website?"

Actually, no one has a greater reputation for murdering journalists than Hugo Chavez.

Just joking! Actually, George W. Bush has probably presided over the murder of more journalists than any other U.S. president, possibly more than any other world leader. (However, don't quote me on that last part; I haven't verified it.)

In the meantime, remember that little conversation we had about dissent? Well, likewise, there are journalists and there are media wh*res. The individual who was killed in Iraq was the latter.

To make it perfectly clear, his words helped engineer the illegal and immoral invasion of another country. Thus, it was only fitting that an Iraqi freedom fighter greased him.

I'd call it poetic justice, wouldn't you?

I believe dissent should generally be tolerated

Can you elaborate on the times when dissent should not be tolerated, and the appropriate methods for dealing with intolerable dissent?

In a sane world Blomstrom would be in prison for sedition right now.

He is a domestic enemy of the United States and should be treated the same as foreign ones.

Leftists seek to destoy America and they may have a standard bearer in November. If Americans are foolish enough to elect one then we deserve our fate.

In a sane world Blomstrom would be in prison for sedition right now

Oh, let the man speak. He's not hurting anyone.

Rob Lyman wrote, "So you put "forthright condemnation" first, which I found suggestive."

Oh.

"And as as I've pointed out, Ahmadinejad seems to qualify on all three of those standards, too. He may be 'too authoritarian' for you, but Chavez is not exactly Mr. Civil Liberties here."

Ahmadinejad isn't just too authoritarian for me; many people consider him too authoritarian. It's a somewhat complex situation; people admire him for standing up to Bush at the same time, but I don't think many people regard revere him as much as Chavez.

I believe Ahmadinejad is also regarded as a religious extremist, similar to George W. Bush. The same can't be said of Chavez.

"My point, simply put, is that talk is cheap. Just because you hate Bush--or from the looks of it, most American politicians--doesn't mean that you should make common cause with those who hate Bush."

You sound like a propagandist. I've clearly stated - several times - that I admire Chavez for his ACTIONS as well as his words. And what ACTIONS have I mentioned?

> Standing up to foreign oil corporations (notably Exxon).

> Establishing Telesur.

> Helping other Latin American nations break free of the U.S.

> Recruiting Cuban doctors to help needy Venezuelans.

Another one I forgot to mention...I believe Chavez is trying to establish a Latin American bank, sort of a counterpart to the International Monetary Fund. I can't remember the particulars offhand, but the idea is to help make Latin Americans more financially independent.

You do agree that financial independence is a good thing, don't you?

According to UNESCO, Venezuela is ranked first in the world in terms of deaths by firearms. Murders are the third cause of death overall in Venezuela, and the first cause of death among adult males. By 2005, the increase in the murder rate was 301.76 per cent relative to 1998's rate. Last year, the homicide rate in Caracas was 154 per 100,000 inhabitants. To put that figure in perspective, Detroit and Washington D.C., the two cities that have alternated as the U.S.'s worst over the last few years, have never reached a rate over 46 homicides per 100,000 people. The Canadian rate, for 2004, was 2 per 100,000. (ht: Igloo Expert Blog) But, hey, all is for the best - fewer people standing in the bread, milk and honey line there in Chavezland. Because, after all, this time, after 200+ years (even worse than the Chicago Cubs) of consecutive micro and macro failure, we're finally going to figure this socialism thing out and make it work.

Thanks Megan for that. There are so many people who can't think critically about these issues because they live in a community based reality that has no basis in fact. It would be interesting to get someone with critical thinking skills to explain why so many economists are conservative, and so many communists are nuts.

"The opposite of war isn't peace, but surrender. While it pleases the Left to see itself as the embodiment of virtue, the "pro-war" element is working for peace too- but on better terms"

"I've long regarded him as perhaps the biggest hero on the planet for his forthright condemnation of George W. Bush - the most hated person in the world (and deservedly so) . . ."

This amused me. As a baseline, whoever is keeping Democrats from . . . whatever it is that Democrats want at the time . . . is always "the most hated person on earth."

The amusement (the current part of it, at least) comes from seeing them now split into two groups and aiming their bisected hatred at each other. I can't tell you how many Democrats have remarked to me that they never before understood why all the Republicans so viscerally hated Hilary Clinton. I usually just resist the urge to point out that most Republicans didn't hate her at all, because they never believe me - the Democrats simply cannot conceive of NOT hating someone who holds values different from their own values.

Can you elaborate on the times when dissent should not be tolerated, and the appropriate methods for dealing with intolerable dissent?

Of course he can: if you agree with his left-fascist outlook (that's what he, in his patronizing tone he refers to as "dissent"), you are allowed to live. Otherwise you're a media whore, and can be killed. That's what he hoped to bring to the Seattle schools.

What the fuck is so laudable about "helping" the poor, McArdle? Strip that of its fuzzy PC feel-your-pain candy coating, and what you're talking about is forceably transferring economic resources from those best able to employ them to those who are, demonstrably, least able. Not only do you distort the decision-making of both groups, but you obviously make the whole economic goods pie steadily smaller.

That makes as much sense as reverse triage in a hospital, i.e. spending all your health care time and resources on patients sure to die and ignoring those who might live with proper treatment.

You'd have to be a complete moron -- like David Blomstrom, for example -- to think that makes any kind of sense at all.

Sam wrote, "In a sane world Blomstrom would be in prison for sedition right now.

He is a domestic enemy of the United States and should be treated the same as foreign ones."

OK, I'll bite - How am I guilty of sedition? And how am I a domestic enemy of the U.S.?

"Leftists seek to destoy America and they may have a standard bearer in November. If Americans are foolish enough to elect one then we deserve our fate."

Oh, right, let's elect another George W. Bush and watch America rise to even greater heights - of corruption, debt and stupidity, that is.

In the meantime, you claim Venezuelans have a hard time buying milk. And we should believe you because...?

Anyone who has bothered to inform themselves on Venezuela is aware of the food shortages. Food shortages were one reason why Chavez lost the December 2 referendum. Regarding food shortages, here is a report from an English-speaking Venezuelan living in Venezuela. His blog is highly recommended.
http://daniel-venezuela.blogspot.com/2007/11/christmas-shelves-in-venezuela.html

Caracas Chronicles is also a good English Language blog on Venezuela.

Another good English Language blog on Venezuela is Devil’s Excrement. It translates a recent article in Tal Cual by Teodoro Petkoff, a former guerrilla: Media Show. At the top of the article is a cartoon by Weil. An English translation of the cartoon’s dialogue follows.

Left: Son take care of yourself at the border. Don't worry mother I will write daily. Right: If you can: send milk, chicken and eggs.

If one wants to believe there are not food shortages in Venezuela, feel free to do so. After all, one is free to believe that the sun revolves around the earth, and that man has not made a trip to the moon.

I doubt these sources are credible for David B. , because as a typical PSF he would apparently accept only Chavista sources. And no Chavista source will admit the truth. (PSF: Pendejo Sin Frontera. What oppo Venezuelans call Gringo Chavistas.)
(I have few links because the software on this blog does not readily post comments w a lot of links.)

Carl Pham wrote, "What the fuck is so laudable about "helping" the poor, McArdle? Strip that of its fuzzy PC feel-your-pain candy coating, and what you're talking about is forceably transferring economic resources from those best able to employ them to those who are, demonstrably, least able."

Baloney - for me, anyway. As I said earlier, there are many flavors of socialism (and at least a few flavors of capitalism).

I prefer the type of socialism where you take money from the super rich crooks and thieves (e.g. Bill Gates) and give it back to the people they stole it from.

Now, I can just about guess what you're going to say - Bill Gates isn't a thief! But IF there were ANY billionaires or multi-millionaires who made their money by scr*wing people, would not agree that they should be held accountable?

And can you name some people who belong to this category, or do you think Corporate America is pure as the driven snow?

I'll not bite, Mr.Blomstrom. It is useless to talk with you, I clearly understand what you are. My statement was for others.

Have a bad day.

You do agree that financial independence is a good thing, don't you?

Well, provided the beneficiaries of this bank are independent from Chavez, as well, and the bank functions credibly, then sure. The IMF has many, many problems, no doubt about it.

You sound like a propagandist.

Oh, well that's because I am one. You are cordially invited to cheer my death whenever it occurs.

People, stop feeding the troll.

Someone wrote that Venezuela has the highest murder rate in the world. According to a chart on this page - http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita - it does indeed rank very high (4th place).

So what country is #1? Venezuela's neighbor Columbia, South American headquarters for George Bush, Inc.

Interesting coincidence, eh?

Rob - yes. The confusion had come up in the past (there were three of us in a thread once) but that twit in the firefighting/healthcare comments section finally convinced me that a slighty modification was in order.

David Blomstrom wrote: Yes, you can always score points with mindless hyperbole.

That explains why your most recent post just triggered a register overflow in the computerized scoreboard, which is kind of special when one considers that we had just upgraded the system to 64-bit.

Interestingly, I think I met you in Colorado Springs about two years ago, on a hot day in mid-July. You were the one standing by the downtown bus station in sunglasses, a trenchcoat, and a full beard, shouting random gibberish at random people right before crossing six lanes of traffic against the light, yes?

Blomstrom is the best thing conservatives have going- a "liberal" who clearly and eloquently shouts his ignorant gobbledy-gook from the tallest structure at every opportunity.

But IF there were ANY billionaires or multi-millionaires who made their money by scr*wing people...

People who make money by screwing people are usually called whores. And you're on record as supporting the death penalty for whores, so I guess it's all self-consistent.

That said, certainly crooks should be held accountable, but perhaps you should define "crook" whenever you get around to defining what is unacceptable "dissent" and how it should be dealt with.

Anony_mouse wrote, "Interestingly, I think I met you in Colorado Springs about two years ago, on a hot day in mid-July. You were the one standing by the downtown bus station in sunglasses, a trenchcoat, and a full beard, shouting random gibberish at random people right before crossing six lanes of traffic against the light, yes?"

Typical right-winger; if hyperbole and BS don't work, try outright lies.

Rob Lyman wrote, "That said, certainly crooks should be held accountable, but perhaps you should define "crook" whenever you get around to defining what is unacceptable "dissent" and how it should be dealt with."

I'll go one better and cite some examples of crooks: George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Bill Gates, William Gates, Sr., Paul Allen, Billary Clinton, Al Gore, Rush Limbaugh, etc.

So what makes these people crooks? They're all dishonest. (In plain English, they're liars.) They're all ultimately working for corporations. More specifically, they help corporations screw people.

Microsoft (Bill Gates' mirror image) has a reputation for screwing just everyone - competitors, its own customers, workers, teachers, children and on and on.

But this little discussion really wasn't necessary. I think most people instinctively know what a crook is - even the right-wingers who cheer for the world's most disgusting crooks.

Typical right-winger; if hyperbole and BS don't work, try outright lies.

Yes, but what will I do for an encore?

Yes, but what will I do for an encore?

That's that question that keeps us all coming back.

They're all ultimately working for corporations...

Well, then you'll be glad to hear that I work for a limited liability partnership.

But in all seriousness, people do have an instinctive notion of what "crook" means, but their notions are not all the same. Yours, for instance, appears to differ from mine. That's why I asked for a definition, so that I could better understand where you're coming from. You gave me a list of rich, famous people. That's not helping.

And with that, I must go home to my wife and child. I will close with yet another request for a definition of unacceptable dissent and the proper means for dealing with it.

Have a lovely evening, all.

Rob Lyman wrote, "You gave me a list of rich, famous people."

No, here's a list of rich, famous people:

Magic Johnson, Jessica Alba, Herb Alpert & Jerry Lewis.

The list I gave you earlier consisted of rich and famous people who are CORRUPT. Which isn't to say that all crooks are rich and famous. But the more politically powerful crooks certainly manage to steal more money from most of us.

Rob Lyman wrote, "And with that, I must go home to my wife and child. I will close with yet another request for a definition of unacceptable dissent and the proper means for dealing with it.

Have a lovely evening, all."

Good night, Rob.

From CEPR:

From 1960 to 1979, Latin American economies grew at a decent rate, chalking up an 80% gain in income per person. In spite of Latin America having the world's worst inequality in income distribution, this was enough to substantially improve living standards for the vast majority of the population, including most of the poor.

But then something went wrong, and it has as much to do with policies advocated by the "Washington consensus." From 1980 to 1999, per-capita income grew by only 11%. The 1980s were known as Latin America's "lost decade," when the region's income per person actually fell. The 1990s produced only modest growth, and the first decade of the 21st century is now looking like it might also count itself among the missing. Using the International Monetary Fund's [IMF] projections for 2004, the first half of the new decade [2000-04] shows a gain of about 1% for the whole five years.

Well, why don't the VE people turn his head into a cloud of pink?

I can't stand to listen to the twerp. Shame there's not a comet headed his way...

av2ts: I have read the CEPR report, and I understand its conclusions. However, the Foreign Affairs article is arguing that Venezuela's recent success has been the result of oil demand shocks, not any of Chavez's policies, and in fact his policies have almost certainly hurt the country's poor. That doesn't contradict the CEPR article.

I'm curious what makes you think the author is disingenuous. He's certainly not claiming that Washington Consensus policies were good for Venezuela's poor (after all, he used to work for the Chavez government).

"Microsoft (Bill Gates' mirror image) has a reputation for screwing just everyone - competitors, its own customers, workers, teachers, children and on and on."

At any time in the last forty years, you were free to devote all of your free time (plus most of your not-so-free time) to the decades-long task of teaching yourself an entirely new way of thinking (binarily), teaching yourself hardcore electronics, and then combining them in a way no one else had ever done and designing the first workable, stable, useful computer operating system, one that changed the computer from a nerd's toy for drawing spirals and printing out the numbers from 1 to 1998227744.9 by threes into a very useful productivity multiplier.

But, no, you were too busy getting high, playing video games, and writing scathing entries late at night on blogs so that you could change the world in the manner you knew you were destined to do.

So, how's that workin' out for ya'?