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Hillary Clinton’s Even Playing Field » Outside The Beltway | OTB

01 Mar 2008 10:40 am

I don't think this is quite fair:

Andrew Sullivan is not amused by Hillary Clinton’s whining about how hard it is to run as a women and how she wishes there were a level playing field. Using some colorful language, he reminds us of the enormous advantages being Mrs. Bill Clinton has afforded her political career.

There’s an old saw, employed perhaps most famously by Ann Richards against George H.W. Bush, about people who are born on third base and think they hit a triple. Hillary Clinton was born on third base but apparently thinks she bunted her way to first and then stole second and third.

She seems to honestly think she’s had a tough go of it, despite her accomplishments being entirely a function of having married well.

Professional women have great difficulty projecting authority without projecting aggression, or bossiness. And running for president is probably the one place where this is hardest. Recently, one of my friends said, disparagingly, "She reminds me of my mother." It's hard to imagine someone saying, in the same tone, that they wouldn't vote for McCain because he was too much like Dad.

To be sure, women get some compensating advantages--I probably get invited to speaking engagements and so forth that I wouldn't get if I weren't a woman. But we pay for that by enduring condescension and criticism that would never be directed towards a man. I can't say whether this ends up accruing to my net benefit or loss--but I sure wish I didn't have to think about it at all.

It's probably true that Hillary would not be in politics if she weren't married to Bill; she doesn't strike me as someone who's naturally attracted to electioneering. And her senate career is obviously a side effect of his presidency. But it's far from clear to me that in this race, the benefits of being married to Bill are outweighing the drawbacks of being punished for things that would pass unnoticed in a man. And it's pretty damn frustrating to think that you may lose a job you want because you've got twice the "normal" number of X chromosomes.

Comments (76)

But it's far from clear to me that in this race, the benefits of being married to Bill are outweighing the drawbacks of being punished for things that would pass unnoticed in a man.

That partially depends, I think, on whether you believe that finishing in second place is worth anything at all. It seems unlikely to me that she would be in second place and so far ahead of Edwards, Richardson, Dodd, Biden, etc. were she not married to Bill, even granting her senatorial position etc.

OTOH, if you're willing to mark the starting point as "it's a two man race between Clinton and Obama," and, relatedly, you consider finishing second no prize at all, then I think I would agree with the quote. In general, the farther forward one puts the starting point of "this race," the more it seems that the drawbacks have outweighed the Bill-advantages.

It's hard to imagine someone saying, in the same tone, that they wouldn't vote for McCain because he was too much like Dad.

Apparently, you don't know enough non-military people raised in military families.

I've known plenty of women who didn't take any shit and ran their offices as well as man without coming off as a bossy or aggressive.

Granted, I wasn't not working on Wall Street or something, but I suspect about 50% of the women complaining about how they can't project authority without resentment are in fact just assholes who don't want to admit they are being assholes.

The beauty of the male asshole is that he doesn't give a rats ass if people think he is a jerk.

I can respect the asshole who accepts that he in fact an asshole. I still think he is a jerk, but hey thats how he is. But being an asshole and being upset when people don't like it is just annoying.

Clinton's problem is that she hired shitty people to run her campaign(Mark Penn being the obvious example).

Nitpick:

"... that I wouldn't get if I were a woman."
should be
"... that I wouldn't get if I weren't a woman."
or
"... that I wouldn't get if I were a man."

Using some colorful language, he reminds us of the enormous advantages being Mrs. Bill Clinton has afforded her political career.

Mrs. Clinton has been gainfully employed for 24 of the thirty-two years they have been married and was the principal earner in the family for at least fifteen of those years. Her husband has also been saved the grief of divorce proceedings because of his wife's peculiar disposition toward their marriage. He's gotten some advantages from being associated with her.

"To be sure, women get some compensating advantages--I probably get invited to speaking engagements and so forth that I wouldn't get if I were a woman."

Aren't you a woman? Did you mean "weren't a woman"?

"But we pay for that by enduring condescension and criticism that would never be directed towards a man."

Boo hoo. Men have to put up with a lot of crap that women don't. Both men and women don't understand the trials of the other sex. Maybe I'm just being a man, but I think women are far less understanding of the trial's of men, than vice versa. Maybe for no other reason than for the last few decades men have been forced to consider the hardships of women a tragedy, while men have been trained to consider their own hardships as rights of passage to manhood.

Fact is that the media has made it very difficult for Clinton in this election and at the same time made it a cake walk for Obama
It is ok to go for the throat against a woman but not ok to utter any thing negative on a black man??
You cannot use his full name you cannot talk about his churches agenda you cannot talk about his wife's ignorance you cannot talk about his in experience you cannot imply any wrong doings on his part
you cannot get interviews with him
you cannot discuss any suspicious dealings he has made
you cannot question his or his wife's loyalty to America
you cannot analyse his weak record
you cannot remark on his arrogance
you cannot question the theatrics of his appearances
ON AND ON

Professional women have great difficulty projecting authority without projecting aggression, or bossiness.


My own experience of the workplace is likely unrepresentative, but I would have to say that if there is a problem that supervisors often have that has a feminine signature it would not be in 'projecting authority' but rather in a tendency to prefer interior office politics to institutional goals as lodestars for decision-making. (Mrs. Clinton does not have a reputation for having this problem. She has a reputation for being a terror to work for).

"Professional women have great difficulty projecting authority without projecting aggression, or bossiness."

I think this is true, and I don't think Lady Macbeth pulls it off either. She comes across as ruthless, cold blooded and calculating and to me at least not in the least likable, an important quality in a candidate.

The phrase "compensating advantages" is THIS close to being an oxymoron. I get your point, but if one side has advantages over the other, and yet the other has advantages that "compensate," then the equation is closer to equal than we'd like to admit, no?

It's hard to imagine someone saying, in the same tone, that they wouldn't vote for McCain because he was too much like Dad.

Don't agree with that. There are plenty of people I haven't voted for because they were too much like somebody's dad who I didn't like.

If we're completely honest with ourselves, personal, visceral response to candidates, female or male, is a huge part of whether we vote for someone, "issues" or not.

I subscribe to the Maureen Dowd philosophy: if Hillary Clinton loses, it will be her fault and no one elses.

Poor campaign staff choices; a many-headed hydra persona that changes almost daily in response to countering Obama; loss of her "cool" more than once (there's a difference between projecting authority and projecting peevish victimhood).

I don't accept men who snap and attack and demean either, frankly, especially in public office.

Just as Obama has gained in appeal the more people see him and sense the sharp and broad intellect...and compassion...beneath his attractive exterior, so have voters experienced the Giuliani Syndrome with Hillary Clinton: the more she whines, complains, attacks, then cuddles up all cozy like on the debate platform - then complains again that she's getting all the "first questions" and nitpicks about "denounce" vs. "reject" - the weaker and less presidential she looks. It's not a gender thing, it's a personality thing.

Plus her much-vaunted claim of superior "experience" should have taught her, I would think, not to take the primaries for granted; not to assume she could roll over the fresh kid with the pretty voice and high-falutin' ideals just because he hadn't earned his longevity badge yet; not to send her once-revered husband out to make a fool of himself again and again; or fail to draw compelling distinctions between her and Obama...and on and on.

Penn and Wolfson didn't help...but she picked 'em. There's that judgement question again.

Frankly, Hillary looks like a disaster as President: petty and sniping, inconsistent, too much in her head and afraid to trust her heart, lacking in judgement and humility (how hard is it after all to say what everybody already knows? That her vote on Iraq and Iran were faulty in conception and in political motivation)

I don't dislike Hillary because she's a woman, but because she reminds me of every other politician since JFK who just ain't got it where it counts.

That's not a male/female argument, it's one of rigorous intellectual competence and human vision.

"It's probably true that Hillary would not be in politics if she weren't married to Bill; she doesn't strike me as someone who's naturally attracted to electioneering. And her senate career is obviously a side effect of his presidency."

She might have been in politics, but the odds of her being successful on her own (solely judging from her political skills) seem low to me. Certainly not successful enough to be elected to the U.S. Senate, as you point out. Her entire political career is a side effect of his presidency.

"But it's far from clear to me that in this race, the benefits of being married to Bill are outweighing the drawbacks of being punished for things that would pass unnoticed in a man."

Sure, if "I'm one of two viable candidates for the presidency" were a reasonable starting position to expect to be in. Seems like a pretty clear example of the point of the old saw.

Didn't someone say of one of the Bushes that he reminded women of their ex-husbands? Put-downs like these come in enough varieties to fit everyone. And Hillary Clinton doesn't remind me a bit of my mother: if she did, I'd probably like her better than I do.

"Professional women have great difficulty projecting authority without projecting aggression, or bossiness. And running for president is probably the one place where this is hardest."

I agree with this, and I would have 2.3 +/- .2 metric tons more sympathy for Mrs. Clinton, on these grounds, if she were a politician in her own right running for the White House.

"It's hard to imagine someone saying, in the same tone, that they wouldn't vote for McCain because he was too much like Dad."

Cue the image of The Great Santini bouncing the basketball off his son's head, shouting "YOU'RE MY FAVORITE DAUGHTER, BEN!"

I once worked for this unbelievably awful Air Force colonel, a woman - and in a staff meeting one day, someone responded to a peevish instruction with an inadvertent but crowd-pleasing "Yes, mom." Talk about your Freudian slips!

FWIW, Hillary doesn't remind me of my mother - she reminds me of every petty official I met during my thirteen year passage through the public school system. It may just be me, but high school vice principal may not be the image you want to convey if you're trying to convince people to vote for you.

The obvious comparison is Mrs Thatcher. She was subjected to some loathsome misogynistic abuse for year after year. It came from the Left. Mind you, she was far higher calibre that Mrs C. And Mrs C has the advantage of having the Left in her pocket. At least until recently.

I wonder what Andrew Sullivan would say if Hillary Clinton rescued a baby from a burning building. (He probably would say that she started the fire to gin up some good publicity for herself.)

I recently sent Mr. Sullivan an email entitled "Why Can't Hillary Be Sad?" after he wrote a post a few weeks back getting on her for appearing sad on the campaign trail. To him, Mrs. Clinton showing a regular human emotion pushes him to bring out his brickbats.

I'm not sure how Clinton's gender has affected her in this race. As a man, I do recognize that there are disadvantages endured by women when they try to advance in careers that are often subconsciously viewed as male professions. Certainly the presidency qualifies here and there are instances where Clinton's been judged or discussed about in ways that would never happen to a man.

At the same time, Clinton enjoyed some advantages that most other women in similar situations don't have. For one, since her advancement is based on an election, she may well have gotten the vote of undecided women who broke her way because they can sympathize with some of the treatment she has received. There's no way to tell if that made up for votes she may have lost from people, both male and female, who are not comfortable with having an assertive woman in the White House. Also (not that this is particularly relevant to Clinton herself but as a matter of principle), if Clinton does win, then she is guaranteed by law to receive the same salary as the other candidates will receive if they win.

That puts into perspective the challenges faced by women who try to advance in, say, the corporate world where they tend to be evaluated by a largely "good ol' boys" club and are often underpaid relative to their male counterparts in similar positions.

So I think that any objective observer will acknowledge that there are overall disadvantages to being a woman when it comes to professional advancement, but it seems to me that Clinton is not a particularly good example. She has the same prejudices to overcome as other professional women, but the structure of the system that determines her advancement is much more favorable than what other women face.

She might have been in politics, but the odds of her being successful on her own (solely judging from her political skills) seem low to me. Certainly not successful enough to be elected to the U.S. Senate, as you point out. Her entire political career is a side effect of his presidency.

The New York electorate gave you Mrs. Clinton but also Mario Cuomo, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, George Pataki, and Alphonse d'Amato. It is damn difficult to assess antecedently what assemblage of qualities make for a politician who wins elections.

There's no question in my mind that in some instances she's being hit unfairly. But there is no proof that she's being treated anymore unfairly than he is.

It would be easy to say that the all talk no action meme is racial, we all no that black people have no substance. And the media has had no problem taking that one and running with it. You don't see her surrogates getting pelted with asking for actual legislation she's sponsored. The media for the most part buy's that she could still win, when anyone else would have been written off.

As a woman, the media is definitely lax in speaking correctly, and in that point she's being maligned, but this belief that the media is treating her unfairly on the whole just doesn't wash.

Art,

To be fair to New Yorkers, Mssrs. Cuomo, Moynihan, Pataki and d'Amato are all native New Yorkers. (OK, Moynihan, that carpetbagger, didn't move to New York until he was 6).

New Yorkers voted for Senator Clinton because she was the wife of the former President, which carries a lot of political clout.

In the end, political power is all about what you bring to the table. Being in the White House for 8 years, even when unelected, lets you bring a lot to the table. If things were a little different, I'd expect Hillary Clinton would have an easy time securing the Democratic nomination. Judging from the polls, we all thought that. Hillary even thought that. But now she's taking a beating for her complacency.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/opinion/24rich.html?ex=1361682000&en=f578d77472b790ee&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink

Fact is that the media has made it very difficult for Clinton in this election and at the same time made it a cake walk for Obama[...]
ON AND ON

Right.

If only the mean old media had just done a better job of telling millions of idiots waiting to be told whom to vote for that it was Hillary's turn...

Maybe they should have made a bigger deal of her amazing comeback in New Hampshire --you know, the one that she won by a whopping 2.6% with a shade under 40 percent of the party vote. Oh, and shame on them for neglecting to remind us at every turn that her chief rival is Black --that definitely would've shifted some votes her way.

Art Deco,

Just going to put this out there: 3 of those people were born in NY, one moved there in early childhood. They had long political careers in NY before they were elected statewide, and Moynihand was elected to the senate via some very odd circumstances.

While there may be hard trends to discern what makes a political winner in NY, I'm going to assume that a First Lady of Arkansas couldn't move to NY and be elected to the Senate in 15 Months.

It's probably true that Hillary would not be in politics if she weren't married to Bill; she doesn't strike me as someone who's naturally attracted to electioneering.

Two words: Richard Nixon

Moynihan (who had spent the previous decades at Harvard or working for the federal government) and Clinton are hardly the first non-local Senators New Yorkers have elected. In 1964, Robert F. Kennedy moved to NY and defeated incumbent Kenneth Keating to be US Senator. He joked about how his birthplace of Brookline, MA sounded so much like Brooklyn, NY.

I agree with Andrew that Hillary has been whining. In addition, I perceive two dubious and unrelated postulates in the following statement:

"But it's far from clear to me that in this race, the benefits of being married to Bill are outweighing the drawbacks of being punished for things that would pass unnoticed in a man."

First, she got to this point because she was married to a former POTUS. I fail to see how anyone can argue otherwise. However, part of her problem now is that the former president happens to be Bill Clinton. Trotting him out to take the spotlight reminded too many people of the reality of the 90s and that it wasn't all candlelight and roses.

I don't believe the First is related to the Second: that she is being punished for things that would be ignored in a man. Which things are those?

If you're talking about the press card, I'm not at all sure that a man would play it to begin with or that it would go unnoticed (or unpunished) if he did.

If you're talking about the dirty tricks she's been playing since NH, I believe they would be excoriated as or more vigorously in a man than in Hillary after all the right wing rovian nastiness we have had to endure the last 8 years. That leaves the sex card which a man would not play or would not have to play if you prefer.

Yes, getting ahead is harder for a woman than it is for a man. But no woman is going to break that glass ceiling by whining about the unfairness of it all.

I'm sorry, but for over a year the media told us that HRC was going to be the nominee.

She had every conceiveable political advantage going for her.

For over a year, all the pundits touted her experience, while absolutely no one actually questioned what that experience entailed.

Not one MSM source every pointed out the fact that, for example, contrary to the long and winding speeches she makes about "35 years of experience" working for women and children, that the job she took out of law school with the Children's Defense Fund, she worked there for less than 1 year.

She says she brought health care to millions. That was the SCHIP program; a law enacted while she was First Lady, ie, she didnt conceive, write or vote on it. Did anyone in the media ever point that out?

After over a year of campaigning on foriegn policy cred and executive experience, her advisors are finally asked what event proves she has been tested in foreign policy.........silence. it only took them a year to be asked that question, but hey, at least it was asked, right?

I find it astonishing, absolutely astonishing, that more people are not upset that Bill and Hillary have thus far denied the public access to her public schedule as First Lady.

>>These are the documents that would actually tell the people what she did in the White House. Why cant we see them? We know the Clinton's answer, but it's basically BS.

Can any of you, on this board, name 3 peieces of legislation that HRC has enacted in the Senate, without Googling?

Now, during this same time, the dominent themes of Obama's candidacy were:
>Is he black enough?
>He is such a novelty (black).
>Did he study at Madrassa?
>His wins are questionable: caucuses and black vote.
>He is eloquent, therefore he lacks substance.
>Does he lack patriotism?
>Are his supporters cultish?
>and so on.

>>>>What is this media bias the Clinton's bang on about? I remember Bill first said the media was biased against HRC in South Carolina, amist the stories questioning whether the Clinton campaign tried to label Obama The Black Candidate after losing Iowa and barely winning NH. When Bill said it I thought, "he's got to be shitting me." Now, a short while later, the world is talking about the media being unfair to HRC. It's the same "feel sorry for me" thing that her campaign has sought to do since the "inevitability" thing was cracked. And it comes from an honest place, at least in terms of political calculus: the Clinton team knows full well that (FACT:) HRC was at her most popular when the country felt sorry for her. That's the one time her high negatives were effectively neutralized. Any and all attempts to make people feel she is being wrong wax nostalgic to the 90s and create empathy for her. So, we've seen a lot by way of: "the boys are picking on her," (quote: Bill Clinton).

But she can't "feel sorry for me" all the way to the nomination because McCain and Company will call that for what it is: disingenuous.

Roger Sweeny,

In 1964, Robert F. Kennedy moved to NY and defeated incumbent Kenneth Keating to be US Senator.

Hmmm... 60's and a Kennedy, I think I remember something about that... Wasn't there maybe a President Kennedy? Yes, he's the one that took nepotism to an art form and appointed his little brother to Attorney General.

Not a very good example of NY's embrace of outsiders and promoting them straight to the senate. And Moynihan was a local NYer, before working outside the state.

I'm sure millions of people will not like McCain because he's an old curmudgeon, possibly like dad.

The fact is that she has a huge built in support base of women who want to see a woman president. It is undoubtedly an advantage for her. And it is undoubtedly an advantage to be married to the former President, without which she would have have been able to waltz into New York and win a Senate seat as a carpetbagger.

The fact is that if Hillary Clinton was not a woman, and was not married to Bill Clinton, and was running completely on her record and talents as a campaigner, she would have been in 6th place behind Obama, Edwards, Biden, Richardson and Dodd.

And Moynihan was a local NYer, before working outside the state.

Moynihan grew up in NYC and worked for Governor Harriman from 1955-58. But then he went off to Harvard and wasn't back except for an unsuccessful run for City Council President on Paul Screvane's ticket in the 1965 Democratic primary.

Actually, much of his time after that was spent in DC. His appointment as Ambassador to the United Nations brought him back to NYC; immediately after resigning that position, he ran for US Senator and was elected in the 1976 election.

I thought the media was rather kind to Senator Clinton initially in giving her a pass on her "I'm experienced and competent" claim despite the lack of a record / substantive evidence therefore.

I'm still amazed that people would consider her identity challenge greater than that faced by a black guy whose middle name is Hussein.

In that vein, I think that Senator Obama has had to overcome significant racial stereotyping - black people can speak well, dance, and play sports, but to do anything substantively...well, Martin Luther King Jr. could give his speeches, but you needed Lyndon B. Johnson to actually get something done.

Not that that is necessarily worse than what Senator Clinton has faced, but I am stunned that she would complain of it not being a level playing field.

Vermando, very well said. but its not so stunning actually when you consider that the only time when HRC's high negatives are neutralized are when people feel sorry for her. that's not opinion.

Jim Lawrence @ 12:14 PM seems to have an accurate take when he suggests that the problem with Hillary is not a gender issue, but rather a series of bad choices she has made at crucial points.

And as (enough @ 4:02) pointed out, Hillary and the press assumed for a long time that she would be the automatic nominee as far back as her time as White House Chief Housewife. And when the script she had in her mind conflicted with actual voter desires, she was caught flat footed.

So her response has been kitchen sink, instead of a steady consistent play to her own strengths. One minute soft and consiliatory, the next day all mock and sarcasm, or even aping Obama's speech style in earlier Texas rallies (to shrill effect).

Her basic mode has been to try to have it every which way. She can vote for war in Iraq, and rather repudiate her choice at the same time. Or, she can add her time at the White House to her 35 years of "experience" while ignoring her "experience" at failing to deliver healthcare. She can tell people she cares about everyone, yet blow off half the states to focus on larger states for cost/vote efficiencies. She can simultaneously court black voters and be dismissive of them as sheep. She can talk tough one moment, then cry and talk of being picked on when she gets hit back.

Someone like Betty @ 12:01 PM might see it as a gender/race issue because the press refuses to overly indulge in the stupider lines of attack, but in fact Hillary is hindered by her choices and personality.

Because Hillary does not have the personality that is automatically likeable, it was imperative that her campaign be run to precision to make up for that. And it wasn't.

You cannot simultaneously be "not charming" and run a bad campaign and hope to win. Obama has managed to be both personable and efficient.

While gender plays a role (as does blackness), and candidates have to adjust to nuances in perception, gender is not THE factor that will lead to Hillary getting beat on Tuesday.

Well.... I love my Mother...

It's probably true that Hillary would not be in politics if she weren't married to Bill; she doesn't strike me as someone who's naturally attracted to electioneering.

Did you know she was elected president of the College Republicans at Wellesley College her freshman year?

Millie,

Millie,

Millie,

You are as wrong on this issue as Hillary Clinton is to whine.

She had every advantage going into this election. Money, name recognition, endorsements etc. She is losing because of arrogance, an ill disciplined campaign, being "out thought" "out fought" and "out hoped" by a superior politician and frankly being downright unlikeable. When she "whines", and whining is the right word, that "words don't matter" she proves that words do matter.

You might have noticed that a whole slew of democratic politicians of the peeing while standing variety were forced to drop out of this race and I don't think "gender" had anything to do with it. The ObamaNator is a once in a lifetime political animal. I've been watching him for over a decade in Chicago and he is tough, brilliant, articulate, and a damned quick learner. Unlike me he is not perfect or humble, but beyond that he has just about everything going for him.

Makes me proud that like me he is "South Side Irish". He is ObamaSaurus Rex and all that stand in his path to the White House shall end up eaten.

The public is perfectly fine with black men displaying their authory and aggression?

I think the "displaying authority" problem is one Hillary and Barack share pretty evenly.

Hillary whines about media bias; her supporters whine about disparagement of projecting authority. Enough already! Her problems certainly is not her projection of authority (her exercise of it is another matter); her problem is projection of honesty, integrity and candor. And, thank you, Miranda: Obama has been far more handicapped by race than Hillary by sex; if anything, Hillary has been getting far too much of a free pass because she is a woman. Were she a man in the same position, she would have been ridiculed for the ridiculous mismanagement of her campaign and for the utterly selfish refusal to quit a race she already has lost -- not to mention the outrageous manipulation she is plotting to steal the nomination.

"White Candidate can't get a break".

Jim Lawrence above really nailed it.

I have no issue with Clinton because she's a woman. I've worked with female CEO's and Board Chairs ... no problem at all.

You are right that some women have a problem appearing strong and not bossy ... some men have a similar problem ... this is not uniquely female. People project differently ... Anne Richards projected different from Hillary Clinton ... at some point you have to blame the person.

Look at John Kerry, Dukakis ... neither projected strength.

Clinton lost me not on issues, but on the way she's run her campaign. She appears to want a 51% win. ... that's not what I'm looking for.

I guess I don't want to think too much about Hilary's complaint that she doesn't have a level playing field. It is impossible to know. But, geez, if she is so smart, hows come she hasn't figured out that no woman helps herself by whining about gender discrimination. I am 54, graduated law school twenty nine years ago. Lots of chick lawyers now but not so many back in the seventies. I was, and remain, a fiery feminist. I don't have many ironclad rules but one of my abiding principles is that if ever I have to resort to playing the gender card, even if I am most definitely being perceived in a diminished capacity for my gender, well, I lose ground. One thing about Thatcher, she didn't whine much in public. Hilary's whining is so stupid. How can she be a Yale law grad, with all the experiences she claim for herself and not yet have accepted that whining about being dished for her femaleness is never, ever, ever, going to enhance her position.

This next comment is unreasoned and undisciplined. Hey, call me too female, if you like, but Hilary reminds me of very smarty-pants females I went to college and law school with, who always thought they were smarter than anyone else, including me. They were so irritating in their arrogance. I'd like to hear someone talk about emotional intelligence. Do people think Hillary has a lot of emotional intelligence?

To me, she is one of the arrogant brainiacs like the girls I knew in undergrad, all brain, little heart. Is that a gender judgement? Maybe.

She puts Barack Obama down for his engaging, uplifting rhetoric. What, does she think she can shove us down her throat? Doesn't she that one thing this country needs, and Obama seems to be trying to give us some of it, is hope, to dare to believe we don't have to perpetuate the politics of corporate money and fearmongering and capitulating to the center. doesn't she see that we, as a people, need someone to give us hope? Whoever is in the white house is going to be smart enough to absorb data and analysis. I want someone with an uplifting, soaring spirit. One of my gender biases is that I tend to think a female would be more likely to make a better president because I expect more women to have good hearts than men, to lead from their hearts. Hilary, to me, leads with her head. I'm looking for heart. I will not forgive her Iraq vote and her steadfast refusal to acknowledge it as the ugly mistake it was. what I'd really like to see in the White HOuse is someone, any gender will do, who refuses to make any policy decisions out of fear, who steadfastly resolves to make decisions because they are the right choices, fears and anxiety be damned.

I am mad as hell at Hilary Rodham Clinton because I so totally want a female president in my lifetime and she was my best shot. I am very glad I was able to vote for Obama in the California primary, so glad I wasn't stuck with her.

She seems to have coasted her whole life. Upper middle class upbringing. I bet she didn't leave Wellesley or Yale Law with any student loans. I disagree with comments that she is only in politics because she married Bill. I have read a bit about her activism in college and law school. I think she married Bill precisely because she wanted to ride his coattails into politics, that she wanted her life to be all about politics. But I don't overlook the fact that she met Bill because of her privileged upbringing.

I think that for the first time in her life, she is not getting what she wants way easier than most women. I think she's freaking out that she seems to have bumped up against barriers that her sense of elite entitlement cannot conquer. She thinks she is smarter than everyone. I have news for her. Obama started life with none of her advantages and he scaled the heights of our educational system. He is plenty smart enough.

And he is proving, every day, that his experience has taught him how to organize communities all over the country. She is a policy wonk. He really did do community organizing on the South Side all those years and his skills show in the caliber of his campaign. Her skills show, too. She knows how to kowtow to money, to capitulate to the middle and even to the right.

She makes me sick. I might prefer to vote for McCain than for her.

She seems to have coasted her whole life. Upper middle class upbringing. I bet she didn't leave Wellesley or Yale Law with any student loans. I disagree with comments that she is only in politics because she married Bill. I have read a bit about her activism in college and law school. I think she married Bill precisely because she wanted to ride his coattails into politics, that she wanted her life to be all about politics. But I don't overlook the fact that she met Bill because of her privileged upbringing.

I think that for the first time in her life, she is not getting what she wants way easier than most women. I think she's freaking out that she seems to have bumped up against barriers that her sense of elite entitlement cannot conquer. She thinks she is smarter than everyone. I have news for her. Obama started life with none of her advantages and he scaled the heights of our educational system. He is plenty smart enough.

And he is proving, every day, that his experience has taught him how to organize communities all over the country. She is a policy wonk. He really did do community organizing on the South Side all those years and his skills show in the caliber of his campaign. Her skills show, too. She knows how to kowtow to money, to capitulate to the middle and even to the right. She has no skill, apparently, in taking defeat with grace.

I have listened to her talk on a few radio programs this week. She seems to be complaining all the time. She should take a page from Obama's playbook, limit all of her statements to positive, uplifting rhetoric. She should not use fearmongering like she did with that red phone ad. Gosh, I was so glad Obama came back with his own red phone ad so quickly. I read that Mark Penn actually said the red phone was was 'soft'!! Give me a break, that ad was playing on fear, on our basest instincts. Obama is winning because of uplift, Hilary, take note and rise up in response, don't keep taking the low road of whining.

She makes me sick. I might prefer to vote for McCain than for her.

Male Democratic Senators who've been in no longer than Hillary include.

Sherrod C. Brown
Ben Cardin
Thomas Carper
'Bob' Casey Jr.
Robert Menendez
Ben Nelson
Bill Nelson
Barrack Obama
Mark Pryor
Ken Salazar
Jon Tester
Jim Webb
Sheldon Whitehouse

That's all the ones I found. Exempting Obama I'm not sure any of those would've done better or been treated better. I don't really know though.

I would think being a political spouse would be awkward on either side. If Paul Pelosi ran for any kind of office I'd think he would have some problems. It might even be worse for a man in some respects.

It is kind of true that women have to face criticisms they wouldn't if they were men. I think women have maybe had better luck becoming Prime Ministers, which is largely chosen by Parliaments, than Presidenrs. Although men have to face criticisms women wouldn't I think in the fields of politics and business women still probably get the worst of it. That said if after sixteen years in the public eye she couldn't figure out how to overcome this problem then that's a bad sign regardless. I don't think women candidates would by necessity do as badly with independents as she's done. Independents are often more socially liberal than Democrats.

I meant to add though that Andrew Sullivan's views of Hillary strike me as over-the-top and I was going to try to move to another country if she was elected. Judging by his blog he's sort-of an emotional guy who is strongly motivated by betrayal or moral outrage. (In a related vein I'm almost praying for him to find a new religion. The Old Catholic Church has many of the same rituals and is more open to homosexuality. Is there one in his area he could try?) I'm not entirely sure how the Clintons caused outrage in him, but they clearly did. Ideologically Obama isn't much different than Hillary so I doubt it's an issues deal.

Oh give us a break, Megan!

Pathetic defense of Hillary, just pathetic!

First Hillary pulls the black card on Obama.

When that doesn't work, she pulls the woman card for herself.

Hillary is losing not because she's a woman but because she is not a great candidate (voted for the war, exaggerates her own experience, runs a negative campaign, is generally unlikable, whines about everything....)

I agree with McArdle on this. However, the complaint kind of reminds me of the attempt to open up Augusta to female members. I supported that, but it was also a very elite-driven issue. For the majority of women who would never have a chance to be an Augusta member, just as for the majority of men, it was a non-issue because it would never affect their lives. Getting your foot into the door of elite life in any country is the biggest, and hardest, step. Clinton did this by marrying the future president of the US. While white women still earn less than white men, it is still better for the average American, income-wise, to be a white woman than a black man. It pisses me off whenever Chris Matthews treats women like meat puppets on his show and makes jokes about rape victims, but it is a much bigger issue that something like 1/4 black men in America will at some point be in jail. There aren't enough female CEO's and such at major corporations in part because when you're a woman, strong becomes bitchy and working with people becomes weak. However, how many high-ranking black men are there really at the tops of the Fortune 500? Just about the only person most people can think of are the CFO of American Express. Someone who was passed over the chance of being the CEO of Viacom because they're a woman has faced injustice, yet that injustice is a lot less than that faced by someone with great potential who can't get his foot in the door because of institutional racism. This is a problem of elite sexism at elite media levels, which is wrong, but to face it you already have to be a part of the elite.

While white privilege does not completely erase the challenges faced by the average white woman in the US, it does a lot more (and means one is more likely to be raised in an economically middle class household and have access to a good public education system) to counteract bigotry than any type of male solidarity between white and black men. After all, black masculinity has long been associated by many white men with the stereotype that black men want nothing more than to rape white women. It is horrible to not get a promotion (or in the past to only be able to go to Wellesley instead of Harvard) because of your gender, but it's a hell of a lot better than growing up in Watts or getting beaten by the LAPD.

Bill Clinton was a sociopath who manipulated and used everyone around him, especially women. The only way that I can see Hillary surviving all those years of marriage to him and still being functional is if she is also a sociopath. And under the stress of the campaign trail, it's starting to show.

Yes, she is at a disadvantage from being a woman - it's easier for a male who assumes a leadership role to cover up his sociopathy. But I'd worry about how to remove that male advantage, not how to make it easier for female sociopaths to reach high office.

My own experience in a male-dominated field was that when I stopped worrying about whether being a woman was a handicap I started getting all the respect I wanted. Now, I walk into rooms expecting to be taken seriously, and I am.

What's odd about Clinton is that up until lately, she's struck me as someone who understood this basic point. So my read is that all this noise about 'unfairness' is the latest in her set of kitchen sink strategies. She's trying to find *any* line that will get her back into the game. At a minimum she's managed to get a news cycle or two devoted to the issue.

Many other posters have ably outlined the myriad reasons why Clinton is losing. When I tuned into this campaign, Clinton was going to have to overcome my desire to NOT go back to the political climate of the 1990's. When it became clear that she was willing to play politics with the political process (her posturing about the MI and FL delegations) she lost any shot she had at winning my vote. Clinton has thoroughly earned her forth-coming defeat. We oughtn't use her gender as an excuse to deprive her of it.

Do you seriously believe that the "condescension" that a woman may put up with is worse than the attitudes a black man has to deal with??

Her complaint may ring true if she were running against Biden or even McCain. But she's not.

Nanonymous noted HRC's resemblance to the education bureaucrats of youth many of us have experienced. I totally agree.

As to "voting for someone like my dad," I think HRC reminds me a great deal of my dad: Obsessive planning, obsessive attention to detail, dictatorial "my way or the highway" manner, assumption that he knows better than anyone else what the right thing is, etc. Dad's lightned up a lot over the last several years, particularly since he retired and I've gained a lot of respect for him in that time, but still....

Megan --

Elite and academic women may get some (token) advantages. But, add the disadvantages of class to the disadvantages of gender, and the cost of sexism soars.

Too many of the women who are able to participate in our public conversation simply don't understand that many of the advantages they enjoy are class advantages -- that obscure how little progress has really been made in terms of gender equality.

Terri --

Sexist talk IS much more open and prevalent than racist talk, not because racism is less prevalent but because women aren't feared.

We live in a culture in which the kind of obscene incarceration rates that young black men endure is more acceptable, that is, less decried and condemned as outrageous and racist, by white politicians and mainstream commentators, than suggesting that an African American political opponent's claims about the consistency of his anti-war stance is a "fairy tale."

Now that is genuinely absurd. And morally disgusting. So why is it so?

Because a great deal of liberal and elite emphasis on "politically correct" speech is in fact an expression of hidden (unconscious?) racism. That is; many whites are afraid to offend blacks because they are, at heart, afraid of them.

Once you recognize and acknowledge that fear, which is such an essential part of racial politics, it becomes easier to understand why we incarcerate African Americans at an immoral rate; yet, go into hysterics about language that may offend.

And why the woman in this race is often treated, verbally, like a punching bag.

>Professional women have great difficulty projecting authority without projecting aggression, or bossiness.

Inasmuch as that was solely written using an active verb and makes no mention of the audience's interpretation, this unambiguously places the burden of projecting authority, etc. on women.

Are you suggesting that women generally lack this requisite skill?

Just going to put this out there: 3 of those people were born in NY, one moved there in early childhood.

True, but I was not referring to her nativity. There have been repeated counter-factual assertions that Mrs. Clinton would have no political career absent her husband. My point was that it is difficult to tell antecedently what combination of qualities in what circumstances will make for someone successful at electioneering. The politicans I named run the gamut in terms of character and personality, though not occupational background. (In New York, most politicians are recruited from the ranks of lawyers, schoolteachers, salaried political staff, or the general civil service).

Mrs. Clinton got through college, got through law school, and had a lucrative career practicing corporate and commercial law. She did not need her husband to do any of these things. It does not beggar belief that she might have had a political career as well, perhaps in Connecticut or Maryland or Illinois. Bella Abzug, Louise Slaughter, Patty Murray, and Maxine Waters all got elected to Congress, so stranger things have happened. Of course, all of this is idle speculation.


She seems to have coasted her whole life. Upper middle class upbringing. I bet she didn't leave Wellesley or Yale Law with any student loans.

TreeFitz, she had to earn the degrees, even if her family was affluent and that took a load off her back. The academic and work history of her brothers (Tony Rodham in particular) is an indication that background carries you only so far. (And by all accounts Hugh Rodham was a decidedly unpleasant man in domestic circumstances - something that might motivate the young but might also demoralize them).

The economy of higher education is not what it once was. My mother graduated from a private college in 1952 sans debt. Her father was employed in the federal civil service, an ordinary bourgeois with a mortgage on his modest suburban house. Somethings used to be easier than they are now.

Bill Clinton was a sociopath who manipulated and used everyone around him, especially women. The only way that I can see Hillary surviving all those years of marriage to him and still being functional is if she is also a sociopath. And under the stress of the campaign trail, it's starting to show.

I would like to suggest we leave the employment of psychiatrist's taxonomies to psychiatrists. (And If I am not mistaken, the term has been applied to her husband because of his liberal employment of personal charm to manipulate people and the speculation that he sees people only as things to be manipulated to feed his appetites. Mrs. Clinton is not charming and the usual rap on her concerns her appetite for power. She may be cold cold cold, but it is doubtful she fits the criteria for 'sociopath').

Obama started life with none of her advantages and he scaled the heights of our educational system. He is plenty smart enough.

Mr. Obama graduated from a private high school in Hawai'i. Honolulu may be the city in American where negritude matters the least. He was raised for the most part by his maternal grandparents; his maternal grandfather sold furniture for a living; his stepfather was an official with the Indonesian state oil company. There is some social distance between his upbringing and Mrs. Clinton's, but it is not a chasm. One might conclude that the biggest disadvantages he suffered as a youngster were paternal absence and a mother who seemed to be perpetually following her bliss.

There aren't enough female CEO's and such at major corporations in part because when you're a woman, strong becomes bitchy and working with people becomes weak.

Having had two very able (female) supevisors over the years who were neither bitchy nor weak, I must be skeptical that such women are non-existant at supeordiate occupational strata.

A different hypothesis for this phenomena such as you make reference (the absence of women at elite levels) was offered some years ago by the psychologist Judith Kleinfeld. She noted that the distribution of scores on psychometrician's tests were different for men and women, with larger proportions of the male population at the extremes and fewer toward the median. The ranks of senior corporate management and elite research science are disproportionately male, but so are the ranks of those in special education classes and prisons.

As an Asian-American man, I know I will have truly have made it in this country when my children will face the same hardships in life as Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Obama.

Someday my children shall complain about their prep school upbringings and their connections.

Like any conservative who comes from a modest background, I wish to ensure my children will grow up with so little worry that they become liberals.

Oh Asian man.

You will know you have truly made it when Asian Man Junior, or Asian Manette junior (your kids), get into Stanford or Harvard. And invariably, whether you have been here for a long time, or a short period,(and are not Vietnamese or Filipino) they will get there, and at higher rates than most blacks, and many whites, and of any income level.

You don't need prep school to get them there. I am sure Asian Man junior is not sitting there saying, "Darn, it's so hard to decide, Crips or Bloods. These gang applications are a bitch".

So, I think you can rest easy, unless your kids are particularly non-normative, in which case I fault you for extremely bad Asian parenting.

(Kidding)

And who is to say that it isn't Bill that rode in on Hillary's shoulders?

And who is to say that it isn't Bill that rode in on Hillary's shoulders?

There is indeed evidence that at various times Hillary focused Bill and spurred him on. And no, I don't mean like Lady Macbeth. I mean like a Hollywood director. Bill was the on-air talent but Hillary was telling him, "Why don't you try it this way?" and calling to a flunky, "Get me rewrite!"

Mary - but it is a much bigger issue that something like 1/4 black men in America will at some point be in jail.

It may very well be that this gap is caused by "racism", but you can't simply jump from saying "There is a difference between blacks and whites" to "the difference is caused by racism."

There's another step in between, but people regularly neglect it.

There are a myriad of other possibly contributing factors, many of which are controllable by the individuals themselves, such as divorce and illegitimacy rates, cultural attitudes, etc.

The average Chinese-American earns more than the average caucasian American. Is that 'racism?'

It's probably true that Hillary would not be in politics if she weren't married to Bill; she doesn't strike me as someone who's naturally attracted to electioneering.

I think it's vanishingly unlikely that Hillary wouldn't be in politics if not for Bill. They went into the world of politics together; they married, and were suited to each other, because both felt that was where their lives lay. Hillary Clinton is in many ways a very talented politician. She is not naturally suited to projecting empathy, authenticity and presence on a stage or on TV, the way Bill, Barack and McCain are, but by all accounts she does extremely well in a small room. There are plenty of Senators who are less prepossessing politicians than Hillary is.

In any case, the overall point is that women face structural and cultural barriers to running for president. Perhaps Andrew Sullivan has some other explanation for the fact that there has never before been a serious female presidential contender? Perhaps he thinks women are stupid, or lack ambition? I wonder what his explanation is for the fact that there has never been an openly gay presidential candidate. Surely "Will and Grace" shows that anti-gay bias is no longer a factor in America. Any openly gay politician who uses prejudice as an excuse for his failure to become the presidential nominee of a major party is probably just bitching and whining, in a wimpy, effeminate, limp-wristed fashion that proves he isn't a real man.

The average Chinese-American earns more than the average caucasian American. Is that 'racism?'

Ah, I see you missed the talking points memo. Your Know-Betters have determined that racism doesn't affect caucasion whites, inasmuch as they are either (1) racists, (2) closet racists who haven't confronted it yet, (3) reformed racists who now recognize their racism and work to combat racism in their Group 1 & 2 peers, or (4) female, and therefore subject to alternate-identiy victim status under §305.1(A)(iv).

"There are a myriad of other possibly contributing factors, many of which are controllable by the individuals themselves, such as divorce and illegitimacy rates, cultural attitudes, etc."

True on an individual level. However, you also have to take into account things like minimum sentencing guidelines for crack vs. cocaine, that white kids who get caught with weed getting scolded vs. black kids doing the same going to jail, drug dealing often being the only path open to a poor kid at the age of 12 where one can be sure to bring back money to feed their 5-year-old sibling when their parents can't make ends meet, etc.

brooksfoe, as much as I think Sullivan has become a little obsessive in his Clinton-bashing, it should be pointed out that his biggest living political hero is Thatcher, who he once worked for. His anger at the Clintons also has a lot to do with Bill's actions like signing DOMA, Don't Ask, Don't Tell, the hand in glove relationship with the Human Rights Campaign, etc.

I think the basic problem a lot of Brits have, on their initial exposure to American politics, is a failure to really get the difference between the American and the British two-party parliamentary system. In the American system, the chief executive actually has very little power. In a two-party parliamentary system like the UK's, the PM takes power with the legislative muscle to do pretty much whatever is in his party platform. As a result, British leaders are less constrained by the necessity of empty talk and half-assed compromise than American leaders are. Brits who come to the US, like Sullivan and Christopher Hitchens, seem to go through this dynamic of hope and disgust in their first years here, which leaves them with a perpetual note of rage towards whichever political faction inspired their fall from innocence. Americans have a larger skepticism towards politics in general and a greater tolerance for empty posturing, due to the fact that our political system is basically inferior to the British one.

"to the fact that our political system is basically inferior to the British one."

I think that's a rather loaded thing to say. A system can be different without being inferior. I rather like that we can have divided government. The idea of a leader less restrained and not needing to compromise so much strikes me as appealing only in theory. In reality I think it lets a country swing way out of whack as Britain has at times done.

Now that some British think the way they do things is superior to the US is probably to be expected. A sizeable percentage of any nation thinks of itself as culturally or politically superior. Although the British are actually low on that measure. The statement "our people aren't perfect, but our culture is superior to others" only gets 37% agreement in Britain. In the US 60% agreed that our culture is superior to others. Still 37% is not zero and 42% of the British view the US unfavorably. So I'd guess "we're superior to the US" might be more common in the UK than just "we're superior in general."

Thomas R, I think a political system in which people spend most of their lives voting quite decisively for a particular platform or measure which the leaders they elect never even try to implement, even though they've campaigned on it for decades, vitiates the spirit of democracy in a pretty deep way. Obviously one needs checks and balances, but one should try to avoid a situation where, when you vote for someone, you not only don't know whether they'll be elected, or whether they'll succeed in advancing the agenda they promised to advance, but even whether they will TRY to advance that agenda. That kind of paralysis saps the lifeblood out of the democratic experiment, and the US has the abysmal voting rates to prove it.

Anyway, I'm glad you cite that survey data (Pew Global Attitudes Survey?), but I'd think it's the fact that 60% of Americans think their culture is superior that's the relevant tidbit here, and might explain some of the US's extraordinary reluctance to modernize its system of government in any way.

Mrs. Clinton is not charming - Art Deco

Virtually everyone who's ever met her socially would disagree.

I see your point and I do think there are advantages to a parliamentary system. However I think there are disadvantages as well. Sometimes it's better to get some of what you want than all of what you want. In part because if X gets all of what they want Y feels disaffected so may grow irate or plain crazy. Britain has a greater history of domestic terrorism than we do. Also the tug-of-war of who controls everything can get pretty rancorous. Anger at Labour government is seen as a factor in why some of the more educated British are leaving the place.

If I were to say Britain's system is superior it'd be more because they don't have these drawn out campaigns. Also they separate head of state from head of government, which is what most sensible nations seem to do. Our leader has to be both "Prime Minister" and "Queen" in a manner of speaking. The two roles don't always go together and it might be nice if the guy who's expected to go commiserate with every disaster victim can be separate from the one who executes policy. Still I'm not really prepared to say a system that's managed two centuries without a coup or revolution is necessarily inferior to one only a bit more stable at best.