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New York, New York

25 Mar 2008 06:58 am

One of the reasons that I left New York (I mean, aside from my awesome new job), is that I didn't like what the place had become. I grew up on the Upper West Side when it was still the place where Leonard Bernstein had set West Side Story: a poor-to-middle-class place with no good restaurants but all sorts of interesting local places. The fifteen-story co-op in which I was raised felt in a lot of ways like a very small town.

By the time I left, in my thirties, the Upper West Side south of 96th street was wall-to-wall investment bankers, and the ubergentrification was creeping towards me; I lived across the street from the last grocery store south of 125th street that didn't carry artisanal cheese. I have no objection to artisanal cheese, of course, but the monoculture was oppressive. None of the finance people or their associated service personnel seemed to live in my neighborhood; they came there to sleep. On weekends, they left for their country houses as quickly as their expensively garaged cars could carry them.

So I moved to a city where the income distribution is flatter, there to bring much hilarity to my liberal friends who do not seem to understand that I can find income inequality aesthetically displeasing without wishing to make a law against it. To be sure, if America's income distribution looked like Manhattan's, even I would think that there was a problem. But despite--or perhaps because of--having grown up there, I do not think there is a civil right to live in Manhattan, nor find it particularly troublesome that 36 square miles of real estate have gotten awfully pricy.

This is perhaps why I have so little sympathy for the princes of schadenfreude in this New York Times article, who are hoping that Wall Street will collapse, allowing them to buy Manhattan apartments. Bizarrely, despite the fact that all of them seem to work in some service associated with the finance industry, they seem entirely unaware that if the financial industry in New York collapses, their employers will suffer the same fate. They also seem not to realize that it is the taxes from the banking industry (and its lavish, ridiculous bonuses) that finance Manhattan's low crime rate and excellent public services. Not to mention the restaurants, theaters, and so forth that make them want to live in Manhattan in the first place.

If they wanted to live in the New York that I liked--the one with the Dominicans hanging out on the street corner, the little hole-in-the-wall pizza joints and the improbable shops with ancient leases that sold scavenged junk alongside ticky-tack imports--well then, I could understand their celebration. But they want to live in the New York that the bankers created without the bankers. This is like wanting to go to heaven, but not wanting to die.

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Comments (86)

Hm. I lived on West 97th St. ("no good restaurants"? Floro de Mayo?) in the immediate pre-gentrification period. I enjoyed all the benefits of gentrification, but paid $1000 a month for a 3.5-bedroom apartment because of....rent control!

The generalized effects of rent control on the economy are, of course, terrible. But man, was it good for me! That's what I want, if I ever move back to Manhattan, and I see no contradiction in wanting that for myself, while recognizing that its effects on everyone else are pernicious.

An interesting and thoughtful comment. London is having the same problems, maybe worse. I can't be quite as laissez-faire as you are about income distributions. The kind of extremes we are seeing just aren't healthy (to anyone) and government should be alert to ways that they can curb the excesses--while avoiding a cure that is worse than the disease.

It really shouldn't be so difficult to finance reasonable public services without creating a plutocracy.

But I agree the politics of envy is ugly and always counter-productive.

You're right Megan: NYC was so much more authentic when Times Square was wall to wall hookers and drug dealers. Not to mention that way cool 2200 murders a year. Now we're down to 500 or so and there hasn't been a driveby in months. Oh where have you gone Travis Bickle?

(BTW, if the crackle of small arms fire ever disappears from DC, you can always experience the gangsta culture in Baltimore.)

"There are more things in DC and Baltimore, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Sorry, had to make the lame joke. Carry on.

You're right Megan: NYC was so much more authentic when Times Square was wall to wall hookers and drug dealers. Not to mention that way cool 2200 murders a year

You know, I knew someone would say something like that. Of course, Megan isn't pining for the good ol' crime ridden days of yore. I think she's recognizing that there are many aesthetically pleasing aspects to life in a city before it comes as insanely affluent as New York has become, and it's fine to reminisce about the days before New York was 90% douche. I also think Megan recognizes that you probably can't have many of those pleasures without some attendant tradeoffs-- tradeoffs, if you'll notice, she's not exactly endorsing.

I think that the notion that one of those tradeoffs is necessarily going to be a return to the bad old days of late 70's level crime in NYC is mistaken. People have the wrong attitude towards crime in this country. The outlier isn't the period of declining crime we've enjoyed for 15 or so years; the outlier was the massive increase in crime from the early 60's to the early 90's. I don't believe that falling economic conditions will necessarily lead to a repeat of that kind of crime explosion, and the general statement "Falling economic conditions lead to a large increase in crime" is empirically problematic.

"the one with the Dominicans hanging out on the street corner, the little hole-in-the-wall pizza joints and the improbable shops with ancient leases that sold scavenged junk alongside ticky-tack imports--well then, I could understand their celebration."

Well, I live there: in Washington Heights. It ain't all that, trust me. Would much rather live on the UWS.

the outlier was the massive increase in crime from the early 60's to the early 90's

Freddie, to what do you attribute the rise in the crime rate?

I didn't live in Times Square. I lived in my home. Times Square is undoubtedly nicer for the tourists now, but its horrid for natives, who never go there if they can possibly avoid it. (To be sure, it's not like I went there when there were hookers, either.)

You are welcome to your opinion of the city as it has become, and if you want to live there, more power to you. I don't. New York is getting more and more like London--everyone except the rich has to live so far out that it has become impossible to conduct any sort of social life; all of your friends are an hour and a half away by train.

I don't like LA either. It's fine for people who do, but I don't want to live there.

I am not buying this at all. New York City has five different boroughs. I was born in one (Brooklyn), grew up in another (Queens) and went to high school and part of college in a third (Manhattan).

If one really wants some income diversity, then one need only pick thyself up and go to Queens, or Brooklyn. Or hell, above 125th street. Too much diversity perhaps?

I am betting that without the awesome new job, someone might still be in New York, but just complaining about it.

Also, one suspects that another name for an investment banker in Washington is journalist or politician.

Somewhere, the alternate universe "Megan" protype of Washington is leaving to take a job in, say, Atlanta and saying:

"Well one of the reasons that I left Washington was all these journalists and politician types, and they are changing the character of the city".

Essentially someone went from losing the prestige position in one city, to regaining it in another.

I understand Megan's nostalgia mixed with appreciation for the unique income disparity of Manhattan. I moved to Hells Kitchen in 1977. the area was dicey, an interesting mix of artists, writers,actors, drug dealers and hookers. It also had the best gourmet food shopping for your $$ on Ninth Ave, where you could buy fresh fish, culturally diverse groceries and fresh herbs for a quarter of the price you would pay at Balduccis. The Ninth Ave. Food Festival was one of the best in the city.

During the 1980s Manhattan's coop conversion fever hit the area, and many of us insiders benefited from the opportunity to buy at reasonable insider prices. But not long after, as investors started buying up property, those of us who liked the neighborhood's diversity clashed with the newcomers who wanted to turn our block into a cheap immitation of the more popular "yuppie" areas like the Upper West and East Sides.

Thankfully , the gentrification freaks went broke and moved out after Black Monday's market crash in 1987. I have to admit, though, that their temporary influence raised the quality of life in the area enough to push it on the path to becoming the rather cool, still affordable (for Manhattan) yet pleasant neighborhood it is today.

That said, I'm seeing a new wave of gentrification and, yes, many of the current group of newcomers are in the financial industry. Will Hells Kitchen finally go the way of all other gentrified areas in Manhattan, with funky litle bodegas and food shops being replaced with Quiznos and Starbucks and pricey gourmet markets? Maybe, just maybe, this current downturn will save our butts from Evil Gentrification once again!

Freddie, to what do you attribute the rise in the crime rate?

If you're Steven Leavitt, it's because a rise of out-of-wedlock births coincided with restrictive abortion laws. I find that problematic. I actually have been fairly impressed with the suggestion that it was the product of lead ingestion; it sounds like conspiracy theory or pseudo-science, but the correlations are really striking, and we know lead poisoning can cause erratic and violent behavior.

Should have said out-of-wedlock pregnancies

Freddie says . . .

"Of course, Megan isn't pining for the good ol' crime ridden days of yore. I think she's recognizing that there are many aesthetically pleasing aspects to life in a city before it comes as insanely affluent as New York has become, and it's fine to reminisce about the days before New York was 90% douche."

Not to mention the fact that the Wall Street scum pays the bills in NYC, underwriting all the left wing moral preening catalogued in the NYT. Case in point: Megan grows up in the red diaper milieu of the upper west side, but goes to an exclusive private school instead of one of those fine authentic public high schools. Honestly, her blog sometimes mimics Stuff White People Like without the irony.

Keep in mind:

New York City - Wall Street = Newark

Finn, you seem to think that I'm complaining that the bankers don't have a right to be there. They do. People who don't like DC wonkification should move to somewhere they like better. I am not arguing for preserving a city in glass, just as I like it; my job is to find somewhere I'd rather live, not stop the change.

But you can't deny that New York has changed a lot. The income disparities were not as high, nor the monoculture so complete, when we were growing up. Again, I am not criticizing this change from some metaphysical perspective, but I don't want to live in it.

As for you, Horatio, that is a) not accurate and b) besides the point. I did, in fact, go to public school for years before my parents switched me to private school, and that whole experience is one of the many reasons I favor vouchers. Nor am I a "red diaper" baby; my mother's parents are upstate Republicans, and my father worked for Mayor Koch.

I don't understand the insistence that I must like the same city you like. Differences of opinion are what make marriages and horse races.

Can't live in NYC: I like trees -- you know those pencil thin things growing through iron grates along the curbs; well, down here in the pine barrens, they grow free and get much larger. The only downside to living down here is that, as Megan says, those pesky well-to-do come down here on weekends.

New York City without Wall Street is called Detroit.

Gentrify, gentrify, gentrify!

It PISSES ME OFF to no end when low-grade thugs and unproductively people can somehow sustain their existences on some of the most valuable real estate in the world. In a sane universe, these people would get the hell out upon finding their rents have quadrupled and a developer wants to put a luxury 100-story condo there.

Seen and unseen, folks. You see the cutesy hoods. You don't see the magic that would happen if we let these people, who have no business taking up valuable space there, move out.

Can't access the site here, but I know this guy has a good rant about "affordable housing" that touches on these issues.

I thought you favored vouchers because they'll take away your Brook Lindsey fan club card if you don't.

Or is it that they won't let you be a den mother for the Ayn Rand Girl Scouts?

I just think it's so aggravating when someone like Megan says "I went to public school, so now I support vouchers", because she would be the first to cry "anecdotal evidence" if I brought up the fact that I and many like me went to public school, with large minority and poor student populations, and are doing quite well for ourselves.

I also aways find it funny, because the real reason people send their kids to private school is because there's no poor kids at private school. You know who gets really uncomfortable when you talk about this "private school for everyone!" fantasy that libertarian bloggers perpetuate? People who already send their kids to private schools and people who work at private schools. "I don't want my kids to go to school with that kind" is the business model of private schools; how long are we going to pretend otherwise?

It PISSES ME OFF to no end when low-grade thugs and unproductively people can somehow sustain their existences on some of the most valuable real estate in the world. In a sane universe, these people would get the hell out upon finding their rents have quadrupled and a developer wants to put a luxury 100-story condo there.

So, like, you literally want Morlocks and Eloi, huh?

Who cleans the hotel rooms and washes the windows in this yuppie utopia?

"Not to mention the fact that the Wall Street scum pays the bills in NYC, underwriting all the left wing moral preening catalogued in the NYT."

Jesus, Horatio, read the article to the end before slamming the NYT for "left wing moral preening." The article makes the exact same point you and others are criticizing people for ignoring.

I sort of agree with you and sort of don't.

I also grew up in a 15 story co-op on the UWS of Manhattan in the 70s and 80s and witnessed the gentrification first hand. I agree with Meg whole heartedly.

But I think the real issue is not that neighborhoods like the UWS gentrified out of existance, it's that the "transitional" neighbourhoods, ones like Washington Heights and Harlem aren't affordable either that frustrate the heck out of me, a "middle class" New Yorker.

There was a great quote (which I thought was a Winston Churchill quote but can not seem to find) which says something like 'The United States went from Barbarism to bourgeois without the interviening period of culture' and that's what's happened to much of Manhattan. I can't imagine why someone would buy a 3 million dollar condo across the street from a crack den, but they do.

And so the hope is that those of us middle class New Yorkers who rent and who can't afford not just all of Manhattan but most parts of Brooklyn and Queens as well are looking for a bit of an economic downturn so that real estate prices drop and we can afford some of the more marginal neighborhoods in New York City. I have a stable job, I don't rely on my bonus to allow me to put a down payment on an apartment. I work for a disgustingly stable company which is unlikely to lay me off. Economic downturn? I'll take the risk that it'll hit the hedge fund managers worse than it will hurt me. And then maybe I can buy in one of the crappier neighborhoods in NYC.

Because, realisticly, the only way I'm going to own on the Upper West Side is if my parents die and leave me the apartment. And I know that.

Megan,

1.) I never said you were a red diaper baby, only that you were marinated in the marxist culture of the upper west side, for which you apparently pine.

2.) Please consider the possibility that people raised in less privileged circumstances than you might have a correspondingly less nostalgic take on the gritty authenticity of "Taxi Driver" NYC.

Horatio,

I suspect that people raised in "less privileged" circumstances than Meg and I are sorry that can no longer afford their homes.

I'm a New Yorker because I LIKE New York. If I wanted to live in Disneyland, I'd move there (and also get a job working for Dinesy). I like the parks, I like the hole-in-the-wall taco place, I like the "young genetlemen" who hang out on the corner of my block, keeping it safe for the locals and smoking INCREDIBLY strong pot.

I am a 5'2" 36 year old woman who has lived in NYC virtually all her life and has never been mugged. The point of NYC is the heterogenious nature of it. The poor mingling with rich. It saddens me that this is changing. I agree that there is nothing that can (or should) be done about it, but I loved what NY was in the 70s and 80s and I look to live places that remind me of that.

Sigh. Horatio, I was beaten up on the playground in a racial dispute (not involving me) at the age of seven, mugged in the girl's bathroom at the age of eight, etc. Care to stump up your street cred?

Yeah, but Meg, that time in the playground was only because I thought you looked like an easy mark.

That wasn't racism, it was blatant ageism. And sizeism too. But I'm not supposed to talk about it until the civil rights investigation is complete.

I totally get what your saying about monoculture. I lived in Portland which is praised to the heavens for being the most amazing city to lve in. And it was beautiful,. But I felt like I was in Disneyland for liberals. Everyone was the same. And white. Now I live in Baltimore, which is not beautiful, but in many ways is far more alive in the ways you described old NY. So I get you.

Megan:

Well, I suppose we could compare scars, but this old Monty Python bit suggests we may be edging into caricature.

Man#1 (Michael Palin) Aye! Very fussable, eh? Very fussable bit, that? eh?
Man#2 (Graham Chapman): Grand meal, that was, eh?
Others: Yes, wonderful, yes very good..
Man#2: Nothing like a good glass of Chateau le Shlasseler, eh, Guissay?
Man#3 (Terry Jones): Oh, you're right there, Robidaier.
Man#4 (Eric Idle): Who'd 'ave thought, thirty year ago, we'd all be sitting here drinking Chateau de Shlasseler, eh?
Man#1: Aye, in them days we was glad to have the price of a cup of tea!
Man#2: Aye, a cup of cold tea!
Man#4: Without milk or sugar!
Man#3: Or tea!
Man#1: Aye, in a cracked cup and all!
Man#4: Oh, we never had a cup. We used to have to drink out of a rolled-up newspaper!
Man#2: Aye, the best we could manage in those days was to suck on a piece of damp cloth!
Man#3: Aye, but we were happy in those days, though we were poor.
Man#1: Because we were poor! My old dad used to say to me: Money doesn't buy you happiness!
Man#4: Aye, he was right, I was happier then and I had nothing. We used to live in this tiny old house with great big holes in the roof.
Man#2: House! You were lucky to live in a house! We had to all live in one room, all twenty-six of us, no furniture, half the floor was missing, and were all huddled together in a corner for fear of falling!
Man#3: You were lucky to have a room! We used to 'ave to live in a corridor!
Man#1: Oh, we used to DREAM of living in a corridor. It would have been a palace to us. We used to have to live in an old water tank in a rubbish pit. We got woke up every morning by having a load of rotting fish dumped all over us! House! Huh!
Man#4: Well, when I say house, it was only a hole in the ground covered by a sheet of tarpaulin, but it was a house to us!
Man#2: We were evicted from our hole in the ground. We had to go and live in a lake!
Man#3: You were lucky to have a lake! There were a hundred and fifty of us, living in a shoebox in the middle of the road!
Man#1: Cardboard box?
Man#3: Aye!
Man#1: You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down at the mill, fourteen hours a day, week in, week out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home, our dad would thrash us to sleep with his belt.
(slight pause)
Man#2: Luxury. We used to have to get out of the lake at six o'clock in the morning, clean the lake, eat a handful of damp gravel, work a twenty-hour day at the mill for tuppence a month, and when we got home, our dad would thrash us to sleep with a broken bottle, if we were lucky!
Man#3: Well, of course, we 'ad it tough! We used to have to get up out of the shoebox at twelve o'clock at night, and lick the road clean with our tongue. We 'ad two bits of cold gravel, and worked a twenty-four hour day at the mill for six or seventy-four years, and when we got home, our dad would slash it to us with a bread knife.
Man#4: Right. I had to get up at ten o'clock at night, half an hourbefore I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down at the mill and pay the mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our mother and father would kill us and dance on our graves singing Halleluja.
Man#1: Aye, and you try telling young people of today that. And they won't believe you.
Man#4: Aye, they won't!

"If they wanted to live in the New York that I liked--the one with the Dominicans hanging out on the street corner, the little hole-in-the-wall pizza joints and the improbable shops with ancient leases that sold scavenged junk alongside ticky-tack imports--well then, I could understand their celebration."

They still can live in this New York. It's called Queens. Nobody gives the outer boroughs any respect, but places like Astoria or Knightsbridge in the Bronx are authentic urban places to live that aren't ridiculously pricy yet.

Lesley says:

"I totally get what your saying about monoculture. I lived in Portland which is praised to the heavens for being the most amazing city to live in. And it was beautiful,. But I felt like I was in Disneyland for liberals. Everyone was the same. And white. Now I live in Baltimore, which is not beautiful, but in many ways is far more alive in the ways you described old NY. So I get you."

And yet, and yet, could not the mounting presence of people like you mean that Baltimore is on the dreaded trajectory toward Portland or Mayberry or whatever? One way to monitor the decline is to check the murder rate in the annual FBI uniform crime reports. As of now Baltimore (@5.48 x the national average murder rate) seems to be holding steady relative to Portland (@0.65), so you're "safe" so to speak. But eternal vigilance is required lest you wake up one morning and find your street cred gone.

So, like, you literally want Morlocks and Eloi, huh?

Oh, no sir, I would *never* want the emergence of some, bizarre allusion I haven't heard of!

Who cleans the hotel rooms and washes the windows in this yuppie utopia?

Are you serious? I can't believe someone as well-read as you (I won't say smart...) can ask this.

Pay wages sufficient to make people want to take the commute, like, er, every wealthy area manages to do without having to pay very much. Problem solved.

Next?

New York City - Wall Street = Newark
New York City without Wall Street is called Detroit.

I'm as irritated by NYC ueber alles as the next Cleveland resident, but: I don't think so. Even a relatively poor NYC would still attract people interested in the various large stages that it provides, and Detroit and Newark (and Cleveland!) will never be able to match that. Its clout and importance would decline, sure. See the 1970s.

I like the "young genetlemen" who hang out on the corner of my block, keeping it safe for the locals and smoking INCREDIBLY strong pot

Uh, the "young gentlemen" I'm familiar with tend to express displeasure via sprays of gunfire into crowds of people. If yours don't do that, I'll trade mine in for yours any day.

BP,

Only in regards to actual size of population, but many of the stages I am thinking of would decline and fall due to the increased poverty of the city itself.

However, I was probably a bit too harsh with my characterization- Manhattan without Wall Street is called The Bronx.

I found Finn's comment about DC's journalist and politician class to be a little odd. Journalists and politicians may have positions of prestige in DC, but they don't have positions of wealth that compare in any significant way to members of New York's financial industry. Accordingly, they don't have the economic clout to price others out of entire neighborhoods. The only folks who may have that ability on a scale that even remotely resembles NY are lawyers and lobbyists. At this point, they've probably priced most of the cool out of Georgetown, but there are still areas elsewhere in the city that are urban, accessible, and diverse/interesting.

The long-run problem that NY has is that the size and density of its core is reaching its limit. Many people of different economic means seek an urban lifestyle that is accessible to where they work and in which they can have thing that satisfy their tastes and preferences (in, say, artisanal cheese, or hole-in-the-wall taco joints). In New York, as elsewhere, lack of density and/or lack of accessibility have made neighborhoods with these features scarce, and therefore the price of living in those neighborhoods is high and the neighborhoods end up catering to wealthier folks. The only alternatives for people of non-financial-sector means are to live in areas that are less dense and or more inaccessible. Corey's point about Queens is fair, but unless you can figure out a good commute with the express trains, it's a long way to live from work, and an even longer way to live from folks who share your tastes if they're scattered throughout the outer boroughs.

We spent billions upon billions of government dollars to establish a national infrastructure based on a suburban lifestyle that we assumed would be permanently in favor. Because of both internal preferences and external pressures, that assumption has turned out to be false. However, the economics of urban redevelopment are complex (high fixed costs, network externalities, etc.), and it's not clear that we'll ever get back the opportunity to build cities of the sort we'd need to avoid the issues that Megan describes.

In the meantime, I'm going to enjoy Columbia Heights (DC) while I still can.

Speaking of Urban equations, we also have:

Detroit - thriving auto industry = Detroit

As that old Gram Parsons tune reminds us:

"You don't miss your water, till the well runs dry."

Also, ever notice how the urban authenticity freaks seem to draw the line at shooting galleries like Baltimore/DC, while finding Detroit/Cleveland just a chalk outline too far? I guess Megan missed the B-school lecture on how prosperity is better than poverty, but I imagine her ex-boyfriend's father can fill her in.

"Well, I live there: in Washington Heights. It ain't all that, trust me. Would much rather live on the UWS."

Dave nails it. If Megan wants Dominicans hanging out on corners, crappy stores, a paucity of good restaurants, etc., she could just move to Washington Heights. Her original comment was pretentious nonsense.

Horatio: You're confusing correlation with causation. Crime is not what makes an urban neighborhood authentic. In fact, the only reason that crime would seem to be correlated to those "freaks'" perceptions of authenticity of all is because crime is what has prevented these neighborhoods from being gentrified. If we had cities with large enough areas of sufficient population and transit density, there would be little or no correlation because the cost of living in a safe urban neighborhood would not be so inflated by the inelasticity of its supply.

Cleveland lacks the kind of urban infrastructure that's necessary to have large vibrant urban neighborhoods. To my understanding, so does Detroit. That's why people seeking such an urban experience don't locate there.

You don't like LA? I don't understand people who don't like LA.

Lee says,

"The only alternatives for people of non-financial-sector means are to live in areas that are less dense and or more inaccessible. Corey's point about Queens is fair, but unless you can figure out a good commute with the express trains, it's a long way to live from work, and an even longer way to live from folks who share your tastes if they're scattered throughout the outer boroughs."

Lee, before I send you to bed without your supper, 2 small points:

1.) Subway travel time between Steinway Street Station (in Astoria) and Rockefeller Center (in Manhattan) is about 12 minutes on average (via the V train).

2.) The population density of thinly settled Queens, NY is about 20,000/sq. mile. To put this in perspective, the only other urban areas in the USA with greater density are the Bronx, Brooklyn, and Manhattan.

The 2 points above essentially render your blog posts incoherent. Have a nice day.


You don't like LA? I don't understand people who don't like LA.

That's a joke, right? The list things about LA there are not to like about LA could fill the internets. All of them.

ahem...

I love all y'all who keep saying "move to Queens, to Brooklyn, to the Bronx, to Washington Heights"

Have you seen how much those places cost?

Those of us who lived on the UWS in the 70s and 80s lived in a unique circumstance. There was a large amount of good quality housing stock, there were lots of neighborhood amenities, there were lots of parks and playgrounds. You could go across the street to Sal & Carmine's when you were 8, by yourself, and pickup a slice for .50 or go to the newsstand at 9pm on a saturday and pick up the NY Times for your parents. The foot traffic kept you safe. You know what else kept you safe? Knowing the names of the whores that worked on the corner when the cops would bust Times Square.

Washington Heights and Astoria and most of Brookyln has become prohibitively expensive. Astoria especially is primarily filled with very expensive condos (2brs for 1MM), crappy, small 2 family houses (also about 1-1.5MM) and rentals. Washington Heights is merely outragiously expensive as opposed to don't even bother looking expensive. About 4 years ago I almost bought a place there for $425K It's now valued at about $650K and going up.

Brooklyn is even less affordable unless you get to one of the really far-out neighborhoods where the neighbourhood isn't "transitional" it's just life threatening.

Finally we come to the Bronx. With the exception of Riverdale and The Grand Concourse, the Bronx either doesn't have amenities, parks or decent housing stock, sometimes it doesn't have all three. And try to buy a decent sized place in Riverdale or The Grand Concourse, I dare you. Once again you're talking about 6-700K if you can find something.

Until the housing bust comes most middle class NYers can't afford any of those places either.

There are also plenty of non-gentrified, post-industrial cities in the NY Metro area where one can live and avoid the horrors of gentrification. A handful even still maintain significant white populations. A friend of mine lives in one (Bayonne) with her husband and child and has a short commute to her financial sector job in Jersey City.

Kate,

There's no law that you need to live in NYC. Depending on where you work, you can find shorter commutes to Manhattan from parts of NJ than from most outer boroughs, or even some parts of Manhattan.

BTW, friends of my parents bought a two bedroom apartment on the UWS in 1974. They paid $11,000 for it.

Right:

a) Both Bayonne and Jersey City (along with Hoboken, Weekawken, etc...) are not inexpensive cities either.

b) The Path train shuts down. And you need a car. The key to city living is a car.

How about this equation?

Manhattan - (East River) = Chicago

That is to say, I think the biggest reason for the income inequality in Manhattan is that housing growth is constrained by geography. Short of paving over Central Park, tearing down those old brownstones for a new high-rise, or evicting the nice old ladies who've lived in the same address since the Depression, demand for housing far outstrips supply.

San Francisco's housing market is the one I'd blame on cosmopolitan aesthetics (a combination of 'No more Sprawl!' + 'No more sterile high-rises!' = 'Why can't anyone who doesn't work for Google afford to live here?').

Leftist, an rapidly moving left libertarian, tears make me smile. I just want you to whine harder and more, it makes every day better.

The danger is that someone might actually think that what you say has value and might try to stop gentrification, and look to ways to bring back crime and degradation to urban metropolises. Electing Obama is the best first step.

The real lesson here is that you chose horrible careers. You are not remotely adding the value that you could to society and should really look to maximize the value you provide so that you can live the life that you want. Getting priced out is a big flaming sign that your values are out of whack with the larger population and you either need to accept poverty or shape up and get your act together. It's sad that Megan isn't getting her act together, as I do still like her, but it makes me happy to see Kate's tears.

As to journalists not pricing people out. HA. Compared to the welfare queens, crack-hos, and the janitors that used to makeup the population of "trendy" DC neighborhoods, politicians and journalists are even richer than i-bankers vs journalists. What will hopefully happen is all the whiners will be forced to move to Detroit or Haiti for their failures and wallowing in leftist politics.

"No wonder nobody ever eats here, it's always so crowded."

-- Yogi Berra

I keep hearing that the NYC metro area has so little affordable housing that no one can afford to live there, and yet everyone does. (It's by far the most densely populated metro area in the country.) Is a puzzle.

Another puzzle: Manhattan presently has about 1.5mm inhabitants spread throughout the island, while at the turn of the 19th/20th century there were 2.5mm people mostly squashed in below Central Park (Washington Heights still had farms!) with no hi-rises to speak of. Now that's crowded. But did they kvetch like Kate? Hard to say, they could barely move, let alone complain.

So, like, you literally want Morlocks and Eloi, huh?

Oh, no sir, I would *never* want the emergence of some, bizarre allusion I haven't heard of!

The fact that Freddie is disagreeing with you is a big point in your favor, but The Time Machine is hardly a "bizarre allusion".

You know, I knew someone would say something like that.

Yeah, it was a bit predictable. But the Travis Bickle reference had a certain redeeming quality.

"You tawkin' ta me? You TAWKIN' ta ME?..."

More specifically,

Travis Bickle: "You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? Then who the hell else are you talking... you talking to me? Well I'm the only one here. Who the f*ck do you think you're talking to? Oh yeah? OK."


You betcha, Kate's glory days.

Everyone here is missing that fact that Megan is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. She said that the UWS is "the place where Leonard Bernstein had set West Side Story"; no, the play was set in Hell's Kitchen. The original cover to the original cast recording shows Tony and Maria running down W. 56 St., which is (or at least was at the time the play is set) decidely not the UWS.

Of course, now Hell's Kitchen is the new Chelsea.

Good Lord, is there anyone who doesn't bitch about how their childhood neighborhood has changed? The folks who grew up on thw UWS in the 40s and 50s probably complained to no end about the McArdle's and how they were ruining the chracter of the neighborhood.

Shorter McArdle: "When my parents kicked me out, I couldn't afford New York City. So I just hate on the people with marketable skills who can afford to live there.

"p.s. I'm old."

AK - Not really. My dad grew up in that hood during that time (on Columbus and 71st) and he remembers it pretty fondly. He still loves the UWS though now he mostly comes with my mom to have dinner with my wife and me.

Kate - I live in your old stomping grounds, except that a slice at Sal and Carmines is now $2.50. And no one lets their 10 year old cross alone, let alone an 8 year old.

I am kvelling. This whole thread is like old home week for me. Including comments about Riverdale (where I grew up) and Megan's private school, across from which I grew up. I spent my youth in the city of the 70s and 80s and finally got to move to the UWS in '91 after business school when rents in the area plummeted. Kate, there is always hope. Of course I will probably have to move out when I start having kids. Can't afford those larger apartments.

My father grew up in a Massachusetts farm town that became an affluent suburb. He used to get a kick out of the people who wanted to retain the character it had in the old days. "Sure! There were two slaughterhouses kitty-corner across the central square, plus a one-pump filling station and an abandoned house." Everyone assumes the neighborhood started when they first saw it, and wants it to stay that way.

Cabbie, take me to my childhood, please.

Was I this snippy at Megan when she was taking pot shots at Ron Paul? If so I apologize.

You know, I used to live on Jamaica street in Queens, and I used to sleep on the docks in Baltimore, and I spent the better part of two years homeless in the same Washington D.C. where I had been shot some five years earlier.

And guess what?

I do want Times Square full of prostitutes and muggers, just like it used to be. Because while it really sucks to be the idiot tourist who goes to Times Square and gets beaten or mugged or harassed, it happens because you're an idiot. Safe places are frequented by the stupid, because they can't go anywhere else.

I grew up in bad neighborhoods. I know how to spot situations I should avoid, and how to protect myself when I can't avoid them. I like those places, because they are a haven from the stupid. Stupid people simply don't last long in those places. And I like that.

Danger isn't always bad. Sometimes danger is a nice, comfortable wall between the stupid people over there and the self-sufficient people over here. I'm proud to be one of those self-sufficient people. In a company of the stupid, why should I be proud? I'm not proud to stand shoulder to shoulder with idiots. I'm proud to stand shoulder to shoulder with warriors, people who go where they please because they can handle whatever the world sends their way.

Sorry growler, but the real fact that everyone's missing is that Megan thinks having her pigtails pulled by some other 7 year old (who doubtless had to climb on a milk box to reach them) is what people have in mind when they refer to the urban battleground that was 70's NYC.

You are not remotely adding the value that you could to society and should really look to maximize the value you provide so that you can live the life that you want.

You mention "society". What would you personally be willing to sacrifice in order to improve "society"? If the answer is nothing, maybe you shouldn't bring it up.

Getting priced out is a big flaming sign that your values are out of whack with the larger population and you either need to accept poverty or shape up and get your act together.

What? We're not talking about the larger population at all, the larger population lives in ranch house subdivisions in Texas and Georgia and places like that. They'll sell their pickups and buy Priuses long before they'll move into any apartment building.

Holy Schnikes.

The lady posted her reminiscences of how her childhood neighbourhood has changed, and considered what some of the consequences were. I'm quite amazed by some of the snarky and personally-hostile comments here. Hostile to our hostess, but also to each other.

I believe her answer, when she didn't like what her 'hood was becoming, was to move. How many of us have done the same thing? How many of us plan to? (Jeez, I'm living in the People's Republic of Mass. and paying 12% state income tax. Where's the exit?). Isn't freedom of movement, and that people exercise it, a good thing?

It's a free country. Go where you like, but don't be shocked if not everyone goes with you. And don't take it personally. Me, I'll live in New York the day they move me into Grant's Tomb. Not my cuppa. But I've found something to like everywhere I've ever gone, and understand that lots of people like living arrangements unlike mine. And what's wrong with that? I hope you all find a congenial place to live.

I attended a Catholic school called Holy Name of Jesus right on 97th St. I grew up in the Douglas projects on 103rd St and Amsterdam.

The neighborhood (above 96th St.)was borderline dangerous during the 80's. During the crack wars, I recalled gunfire erupting every single day for a few months around my housing complex. During the years living there, I was once nearly beaten to death, I was mugged once and escaped an attempted mugging. All this around a ten block radius.

Today, the gentrification that started many years ago is nearly complete. My mother still lives in projects and the quality of life has improved greatly. The stairwells do not even have grafitti! Gunfire is rarely heard and if drugs are still being sold, it is not as much out in the open as it used to be.

Compare to the way it was? Give me more gentrification please.

Bryan - there is still lots of drugs sold. Only they are all psychoactive ones from the myriad Duane Reades (NY ubiquitous drug store chain) in the neighborhood. I live on 101 and WEA now but my grandparents lived on 84th and B'way my whole life so we were in the neighborhood usually about once a week, sometimes more. Yes, I miss what it was, but unlike my neighbors I don't want to stop the change. Too many go to the community meetings just to try and yell "STOP!" and don't realize that it never has and never will and that by trying to stop it they will only create some other unforeseen dislocation.

Manhattan presently has about 1.5mm inhabitants spread throughout the island, while at the turn of the 19th/20th century there were 2.5mm people mostly squashed in below Central Park (Washington Heights still had farms!) with no hi-rises to speak of.

Also, they've gone from being tiny to really, really tiny. ;^)

>excellent public services

Surely you jest. You clearly haven't had to deal on a regular basis with many NYC agencies. I was born in NYC (Astoria), and lived in NYC for 45 years until 8 months ago, at which time I moved my family to Connecticut. The joke I like to tell people is that native NYkers who move to other parts of the country are like East Germans (when there was such a separate place, of course) who escaped to the West and couldn't believe such choices and opportunities were now available to them. I'll never move back, especially as the city and state become ever more hostage to taxeaters, though with parents and inlaws still lodged in the People's Republic of NYC I visit often.

Randomly.

"Subway travel time between Steinway Street Station (in Astoria) and Rockefeller Center (in Manhattan) is about 12 minutes on average (via the V train)."

If you happen to live a few blocks from the train. If you live, say, a mile or two away, it's a good walk or a 20 minute bus crawl to get to the train in the first place.

* As one who grew up in NY during the 60s, 70s and 80s, I for one have no desire to go back to the "good old days" of being afraid every time you had to take the subway, and having bars and gates on your windows and doors, and being pleasantly surprised if your car was actually where you left it the next morning.

* That said, I also think the money culture of New York is reaching dangerous levels when restaurants that easily cost $1000 for four people (or even two) to have dinner are simultaneously impossible to get into unless you've got an American Express Black card. Though I have no idea what to do about it.

* The relationship between poverty and crime is close to zero, except in the fantasy world that Liberals inhabit where "poverty" causes everything. Compare the economy in the 50s vs the 60s, and then compare the crime rates. Crime is a very logical economic choice people make when the punishment is less than the economic gain. In the 60s the punishment part fell to almost nothing for many crimes, while the economic part remained lucrative. Not a very hard choice for lazy, violence prone males to make, is it? (Wouldn't you like a job that takes up maybe half an hour of your day?)

* New York -- Manhattan specifically -- has always been the home of the rich and famous, yet it was a perfectly liveable island during the 40s and 50s with very little crime, a vast middle class, and minimal social services (compared to now). If you give up the Nanny State, or the Nanny City, you don't need countless millionaires propping up your city.

* Manhattan is now chock-a-block with the wealthy because there are so many more of them these days, thanks to several decades of rapacious Republican evil exploiting the poor and downtrodden, and somehow turning many of the poor and downtrodden into the rich and un-trod-upon. But fear not, an Obama administration will go a long way toward reversing such an immoral economic situation.

I get where Megan's coming from even if it's a different area of the country for me. My little corner of Chicagoland is changing and I am not pleased with the changes but I can see that there is a net good for others, so what ya gonna do? I ain't a "lets pass a law against what others like and I don't" kinda person.

*In this case, it's a lovely progressive (I know, I know) neighborhood with old Victorians, twenties bungalows and a zippy 1930-50ish downtown that is quickly becoming all cellphone-stored, Shushi-Housed, boring-glass condo towered out. Even that would be fine, except what happens is that the city raises the local property taxes a lot, locals move out, and then the city gives big developers tax breaks (that they wouldn't give little old me!) to build more glass condo towers.

I wish they would lower taxes and fees and make it less onerous for local businesses so it could continue to be quirky, economically diverse and full of crazy and cute little shops, but I don't want to pass stupid laws just because I don't like the ugliness of contemporary architecture or Pottery Barn. Oh well, there's always another 'undiscovered' area to move to, I guess. Thereby compounding the problem. Yeah, I know, I know.

So we've got all these commentators, shouting "If not for the bankers, you'd have criminals! If not for the criminals, you'd have bankers! Bankers are criminals! Criminals are bankers!"

Makes me glad I live in Texas. I pay six hundred a month for my slice of a house in a nice, walkable neighborhood where it's warm and sunny outside.

When housing prices go up here, this strange thing called capitalism causes to ... build more houses!

That's why we have a middle class here.

This blog post reminded me of this:
http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.wordpress.com/2008/02/22/73-gentrification/

My apologies if this was already pointed out.

San Francisco is worse!

Thanks for the chance to listen in on your conversation about NYC. I have never been there, and Lord willing, I'll never go - but it is interesting to hear about the lives of others.

Ah, Megan, you remind me of the good old days. I used to live for a while on 109th between Broadway and Amsterdam. I used to call it the OK Corral until Mayor Giuliani tamed the city and the gunshots stopped ringing out between 1 and 5 AM. That meant I could go to that great little bagel shop (bagel and cream cheese, bagel and lox, oy vey!), the fruit-veggie and minimart where my friend Hassan from Senegal worked, and the pizza parlor around the corner on 110th and Broadway (what a slice for $2!!). In those days, there was a bookstore near 96th and Broadway that I used to walk to; they had to move because of the gentrification, and they were never the same cosy little bookstore with know-everything clerks ever again. I even remember when the financial district was chock full of little dusty places chock full of weird junk, electronics, the forerunner to today's thrift store where you could buy socks, tops, and stuff for next to nothing. NYC had character, and you could walk from Chambers dipping in and out of all these weird little places all the way up through 14th and on through the Garment District. When Barnes and Nobles were just starting out, you could build a library (and I did) on .50 books. $10 would get you shopping bag full of treasures. Back then, you didn't need a whole lot of money to enjoy NY. You didn't need to be a banker hoping for ruin.

There is somewhat of a middle path. The gentrification under Giuliani took place before the explosion in hedge funds, which during the 2000s contributed to the NY getting even more expensive long after the city had reached its tipping point with regards to safety. So from a free market capitalist point of view, some of us are hoping for a "market correction," with regard to the bankers. I live in Manhattan (and will have to move out when we start a family) and understand Wall Street's importance. But that does not mean we ought to be unconditionally grateful for its success, especially when it is built on improperly valued investments that served to enrich their managers while putting our entire economy at risk.

I also aways find it funny, because the real reason people send their kids to private school is because there's no poor kids at private school.

Most private schools are not elite and expensive. Most private schools are parochial religious schools. I sent my children to private schools so they could have a good Jewish education, not so they could avoid poor people. A significant percentage of their schools' students were on scholarships.

Give Megan a break, I for one am glad she does what she does so I can have an afternoon of entertainment on a slow day at work.


I for one think your all crazy. Raleigh, NC is the place to be: green, spread out, lots of trees where a kind of high-tech university culture splashes into the warm, semi-rustic southern culture. You walk right out of your gleaming biotech research campus into cows, farms and forests and a huge mall is only 20 minutes away. I guess I just don't appreciate the colorful, high-energy, big city culture. I appreciate a cleaner, greener, lazier ambience.

How about NYC simply relax the zoning codes and remove rent control? If it's too expensive, expand supply. Then everyone can live there. Just sayin'...

If they wanted to live in the New York that I liked--the one with the Dominicans hanging out on the street corner, the little hole-in-the-wall pizza joints and the improbable shops with ancient leases that sold scavenged junk alongside ticky-tack imports--well then...

...they can move to Washington Heights. How hard is this?

I for one think your all crazy. Raleigh, NC is the place to be: green, spread out, lots of trees where a kind of high-tech university culture splashes into the warm, semi-rustic southern culture. You walk right out of your gleaming biotech research campus into cows, farms and forests and a huge mall is only 20 minutes away. I guess I just don't appreciate the colorful, high-energy, big city culture. I appreciate a cleaner, greener, lazier ambience.

And that is why we natives have started saying that Cary, which for you non-Tar Heels is adjacent to Raleigh, stands for Containment Area for Relocated Yankees. But, as long as you bring money and realize that BBQ is a noun and not a verb, we'll let you stay.

I live in the E 90s in NYC. The old tenement buildings are coming down. Going up are the high-rises. Not very many of the new buildings are architectually distinguished (not that I'm a judge) but I'm sure that most of the old tenement buildings were actively hated by several generations of tenants. My progressive neighbors hate the change. Many of them have rent-stabilized or even rent controlled apartments and are going nowhere. Me? I'm happy as a clam. I bought my apt 20 yrs ago and when people talk about the outrageous prices of NYC real estate I feel warm all over.

I live in the E 90s in NYC. The old tenement buildings are coming down. Going up are the high-rises. Not very many of the new buildings are architectually distinguished (not that I'm a judge) but I'm sure that most of the old tenement buildings were actively hated by several generations of tenants. My progressive neighbors hate the change. Many of them have rent-stabilized or even rent controlled apartments and are going nowhere. Me? I'm happy as a clam. I bought my apt 20 yrs ago and when people talk about the outrageous prices of NYC real estate I feel warm all over.

"The joke I like to tell people is that native Kate,

"a) Both Bayonne and Jersey City (along with Hoboken, Weekawken, etc...) are not inexpensive cities either.

You don't have to live right on the Hudson River, you know. You can take an NJ Transit train to the Path, take a bus directly into the City, or drive to the ferry like lots of New Jerseyans do (that is, those who still work in Manhattan -- more and more work here).

"b) The Path train shuts down. And you need a car. The key to city living is a car."

Yes, you do need a car here. But you can buy a great used one for less than $15k, and parking (outside of places like Hoboken) is free and plentiful. Gas is also cheaper here than in most other states.

"NYkers who move to other parts of the country are like East Germans (when there was such a separate place, of course) who escaped to the West and couldn't believe such choices and opportunities were now available to them."

Like Homer Simpson said, "It's funny 'cause it's true". My sister, who has expunged from her memory that she was born and raised in NJ, has lived in Manhattan (SoHa: South of Harlem) for 15 years. The last time I took her to a grocery store on the mainland -- not a fancy one like Whole Foods, just a regular Shoprite -- she was blown away by the prices and variety of products.

I was born in Brooklyn, grew up on Long Island, and lived back in Brooklyn when I got married.

There is NO WAY you could make me spend the night on that tiny island of yours.

When congestion pricing comes to this town (and it will) that will be the time for me to finally say goodbye to NYC after 40 years.

Charging eight dollars to drive into Manhattan is the last straw for me.