« Mississippi: Obama in a walk | Main | My goodness »

Protect them from themselves--and everyone else

12 Mar 2008 08:59 am

Kerry Howley has a really good post on the moralism inherent in the question of legalizing sex work, even from people who are trying to fight against that moralism:

Everyone seems to assume that legalizing sex work will reinforce all sorts of ugly cultural phenomena women struggle against all the time. Writes one commenter at Feministing, “I’m politically liberal, openly feminist, and opposed to sex work precisely” because of “patriarchy” and “heterosexuality issues.”

I find this incoherent precisely because I share all the poster’s intuitions about problematic cultural norms. Of course sexism restricts autonomy in all sorts of ways that deserve consideration when discussing the prevalence of prostitution or the choice to enter sex work. Of course it’s deplorable that sexually adventurous young women are constantly told they are “degrading themselves” by seeking out various experiences, that every bit of enjoyment eats away at some secret store of purity. This whole tradition–the idea that women need be preserved in glass so as not to “ruin” themselves, lest they diminish their sexual value by “giving it away”–restricts the lived autonomy of women in ways I can’t even begin to articulate. None of the slut-shaming makes sense unless you assume women live to give themselves to men in their purest possible form.

If you find all of these cultural pathologies unfortunate, what is the public policy you should prefer? It seems to me that it is not the policy that deems it a crime against the American people to open your legs. Anti-prostitution laws add a layer of legal sanction to all of our worst intuitions about the treatment of sexually independent women; they strengthen and validate the idea that women who bed men with any frequency are sick, marginal, pariahs. Even decriminalization, which treats Johns as outlaws and sex workers as victims, assumes that all sex workers are damaged, that no woman would ever love sex enough to make a career out of it.

Revulsion against sex work isn't unique to female prostitutes. We're also repulsed by men who sell themselves to women, even though there's a general cultural assumption that a healthy man wants to have sex with nearly every female he sees. Something about sex work violates a deep belief--whether cultural or hard wired I don't know--that sex should only be traded for affection.

But if the only prostitutes were men selling themselves to women, no one would want to make it illegal. Supporting yourself that way might bring social opprobrium, like becoming a Morris dancer or eating live chickens--can't you find something better to do? But we wouldn't criminalize it in the name of protecting them from violence, criminals, or the untold horrors of multiple anonymous sexual encounters. A bizarre "We must destroy the village in order to save it" mentality permeates the discussions about legalization on both left and right.

I am unmoved by arguments that legal prostitution in Amsterdam is plagued by associated criminal behavior. Some of that seems to stem from the fact that the Netherlands is a small country surrounded by other countries where prostitution is illegal. It is possible to keep the crime associated with "vice industries" to a minimum--compare Las Vegas to a crooked numbers game. We have also found ways to protect professionals who consult alone with potentially violent clients. Moreover, I am sort of a simpleton about these kinds of complex legal questions. As a general rule, I think that if you are worried about criminality, you should probably go after the criminals, rather than creating a brand new crime so that you can throw someone else in jail.

Comments (56)

How do you propose that OSHA develop regulations for the sex business? Once the business is heavily regulated from worker safety/public health safety, it would immediately create a demand for non-licensed, non-regulated alternatives.

Do you think that anyone opening such a legal business would be an almost immediate target of the trial lawyers? I cannot think of way that a brothel could protect itself from tort liability.

Is one of the reasons that parts of Europe seems to tolerate prostitution is that most of the workers are immigrants? That way the citizens of the Netherlands do not have to worry about their own children entering the business.

Supporting yourself that way might bring social opprobrium, like becoming a Morris dancer or eating live chickens--can't you find something better to do?

That's a rather strange comparison. What's wrong with Morris dancing?

Its not just the Netherlands where prostitution is legal, in the UK anybody can be a prostitute, both buying or selling sex is legal, there are just 'norms' on what you can and cannot do to procure/offer your services.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7153358.stm

I also read of a Dutch MP who was (albeit secretly from her children) an ex prostitute so it isn't only a case of acceptable only for non citizens.

"Do you think that anyone opening such a legal business would be an almost immediate target of the trial lawyers? I cannot think of way that a brothel could protect itself from tort liability."

There are legal brothels operating in Nevada. You'll have to put the trial-lawyer-boogeyman away until next issue.

"no woman would ever love sex enough to make a career out of it"

- Yeah, I think that that is what opponents of prostitution - both those who want to decriminalize and those who don't - assume. Maybe not "no" woman, but those girls taking 20+ partners a night in Amsterdam? Yeah, I don't think they're doing it because they love sex so much.

njorl,

Actually, Nevada has established tort liablity for brothel owners in Nevada. www.leg.state.nv.us/nrs/nrs-041.html

However, since most of them are small operations (operating out of a trailer home) and asset poor, their normal economic situation protects them from tort liability.

"But if the only prostitutes were men selling themselves to women, no one would want to make it illegal."

TR: I'm pretty sure I would. My only doubts come in the fact that this is so rare I'm not sure if the dynamic is the same. Still most of my objections would remain.

"assumes that all sex workers are damaged,"

TR: Not "all" just the majority. I've never seen much evidence to the contrary.

"that no woman would ever love sex enough to make a career out of it."

TR: For one I think it's rarely if ever being paid simply for the joy of sex. It's essentially a service industry. Being a waitress is also seen as demeaning by some.

For another by and large people don't make careers out of bodily functions. Professional taste-testers or food critic is the only thing I can think of, but they're not paid merely for tasting food. It's difficult for me to see how having a career based solely on a biological function would not be pathetic.

The idea of making prostitution into some strange form of female empowerment is interesting if bizarre. I'm thinking this is something an middle-class to upper middle-class woman can imagine without ever dirtying herself with reality. Kind of like some early feminist who thought women should go to work to feel independent and useful rather than because they actually needed to make a living.

"who thought women should go to work to feel independent and useful rather than because they actually needed to make a living."

I realize this opens up to the idea that prostitution might just be valid as a way for unskilled women to make a living. I'd still think there's better ways, but I suppose I can concede the logic of the idea.

Something about sex work violates a deep belief--whether cultural or hard wired I don't know

Um, both. Though you could make a good argument that the cultural part is shifting.

And at the risk of sounding antiquated or out-of-touch, I would suggest that it is a sense of what some of us call morality that you're noting. Brooksfoe made a similar - and particularly insightful, IMHO - comment in an earlier thread:

In the friction-free world of neoclassical economics, all labor may be morally indistinguishable, and two hundred dollars an hour is two hundred dollars an hour; but in the real world, screwing for money is different than dancing ballet for money.

that no woman would ever love sex enough to make a career out of it.

I enjoy eating, but I wouldn't want a job where I eat things I don't like for money. I'm sure there are many women who love sex very much, but how many of them would want to have sex all the time with men who they aren't sexually attracted to, and men who they're physically repulsed by?

I say empower women by ... letting them sell their kidneys.

TakeFlight cites . . .

"In the friction-free world of neoclassical economics, all labor may be morally indistinguishable, and two hundred dollars an hour is two hundred dollars an hour; but in the real world, screwing for money is different than dancing ballet for money."

I think in a "friction-free" world there would be no prostitution.

This is one of the least persuasive arguments for legalizing prostitution that I've seen. While I'm generally in favor of legalizing it, I don't think that it's a good thing or even particularly healthy, emotionally.

I would love for men and women to be able to choose their sex partners and be free to have sex or not without worrying about being called a "slut" or whatever... but that doesn't mean that I would encourage men or women to have lots of sex partners or have lots of casual sex. Nor would I consider it particularly "liberated".

1. We ought to be drawing a distinction between legal and public. If you've been to Phnom Penh and Hanoi, you know the difference between a country where prostitution is practiced openly and publicly, and one where it is widespread but concealed. There is a demeaning effect on women attendant on the widespread, open nature of prostitution in Cambodia. Put it this way: I would not raise a 13-year-old daughter in Cambodia. Period. It might be possible to decriminalize prostitution without allowing it to be practiced in a public fashion, and that might avoid some of the harms being claimed from legalization.

2. But if the only prostitutes were men selling themselves to women, no one would want to make it illegal. In fact, a very large proportion of prostitutes are men selling themselves to men, often while dressed as women. Such men are just as likely to be victims of violence as female prostitutes. I don't think people are noticeably more enthusiastic about legalizing rent boys or Thai pretty-boys than about legalizing female prostitution.

3. I am not sure that there is notably less crime in Las Vegas than in an illegal numbers game. The numbers game may entail more associated criminality per dollar, but Las Vegas is immeasurably larger, because it is legal and can thus advertise on TV. And ultimately I think Las Vegas does more to harm American society.

All that said, I still favor the Dutch policy that doesn't apparently work so well: decriminalization of prostitution and criminalization of pimping.

Actually, I want to come back at this one other way.

If you look at both the history of prostitution in Europe and the US since the 19th century, and at the dynamic of prostitution today in the globalizing third world, what you'll see is that prostitution is basically a phenomenon of female poverty and economic insecurity in formerly non-market societies that are becoming industrial, market, wage-labor economies. Yes, there are some regular girls in wealthy countries who choose to be sex workers, but extremely few, and especially not in countries with low levels of income inequality. In Cambodia, Vietnam and Thailand, prostitution is a function of economic modernization: increasing income in urban areas puts money in men's pockets, while rationalization of farming sends landless migrants streaming to cities, where there aren't enough jobs for them. In the Netherlands, where it's legal, there are almost no Dutch prostitutes; it's at least 95% Latin American, African, Asian and Eastern European immigrants. Clearly, this is "a job the (well-off) locals don't want to do". Why is that? Well, I know one of the most prominent advocates of sex workers' rights in Cambodia, and she says it's because being a sex worker is awful, degrading, soul-draining, dangerous work. But it's usually not much worse than the other kinds of work available to the poor women who choose it, and it pays a lot better.

Looking at this phenomenon from the perspective of that tiny number of women who go into sex work because they enjoy it is a very confusing way to look at the issue. Because that really isn't what sex work is. Large-scale sex work industries, like what you had in France in the 19th century or Cambodia today, are basically an expression of drastic income inequality and poor women's lack of marketable skills in changing economies, which drive women to do something which they by and large really do not want to do but which men do want them to do. The "women's empowerment" angle on sex work is a very small, somewhat strange cultural and intellectual fad that has popped up mainly in the US in the last 15 years. It's fine, for self-employed middle-class female dominatrixes. But that tiny boutique industry is a speck in the face of the vast, dismal global market in poor women's flesh. And it would be strange to make policy based on the way things work in the upscale boutique candle factories rather than at General Electric.

Brooksfoe, I'm not disputing this, exactly--Kerry is having an ideological discussion about first principles with fairly far left feminists. It's very possible that no women would choose prostitution because they like the work, but I can't say that categorically. Movie critics get tired of movies, and hate individual ones; same with food critics of meals. It is conceivable to me that there are women who would like being a prostitute, even while disliking individual clients or the inevitable tedium of repetition. So we shouldn't be having a discussion in which we presumptively assume that no woman is choosing this over other work.

Second of all, lots of people do work they don't like because it pays well. That's not a problem for me. I would like to see Cambodian women get a whole lot richer, but that's not a reason to prevent them from choosing sex work from among their bad options. This seems to me a lot like criminalizing prostitution because it's sometimes associated with crime: you can't cure a problem by outlawing a symptom.

Third of all, it's not necessarily true that no Dutch women will do the job; rather, as in other moderately skilled work, the immigrants may be undercutting the locals enough to push them out of the market.

On your other post, I deliberately chose not to discuss male-on-male prostitution because one could argue that aversion to it is based on the same kind of sexual gender-norming that puts extra stigma on female prostitution; I'm obviously aware that there are a lot of male prostitutes out there.

And looking at the history of gambling in this country, it's very clear to me that Vegas is associated with a much lower level of dangerous criminality than were illegal gambling operations, or indeed Vegas in the early years, when it funded the mob.

brooksfoe wrote: Well, I know one of the most prominent advocates of sex workers' rights in Cambodia, and she says it's because being a sex worker is awful, degrading, soul-draining, dangerous work. But it's usually not much worse than the other kinds of work available to the poor women who choose it, and it pays a lot bette.

Right there, in a nutshell, is the essence of how prostitution comes about and subsists. Perhaps MM has so little respect for her own body that she can accommodate the idea that other people might not mind having foreign and potentially disease-ridden objects inserted into intimate parts of their body regularly in exchange for financial compensation. Perhaps some don't mind, but it doesn't change the fact that for many/most, prostitution is an act of desperation in the absence of better options and/or the presence of severe financial distress, comparable to indentured servitude.

There's a book floating around by the title of "Soiled Doves: Prostitution in the Early West" that details the lives of female sex workers in the western US around the time of the mining booms. I haven't had a chance to read it, but it reportedly details stories of women who sought a share of the easy money, but in practice faced social oprobrium for their work and tended to die poor, young, and disease-ridden.

As for whether or not the responses include a moral element: Duh. Mankind is a moral creature, and no amount of libertarian nihilistic philsophizing will divorce him from that. If women are creatures worthy of respect and committed investment, and demand such in their relationships, they will generally get it. If women are recreational toys that can be temporarily bought for a price, then they will receive the respect and committed investment of a riding lawn mower rented for a comparable time period. And this is true regardless of whether the act is explicitly prostitution, or merely an easy hookup following one dinner date.

Some other points I meant to add:

1. There has always existed, and will continue to exist, a notable average physical strength difference between men and women, in the advantage of the former. This automatically, on average, puts the latter at a disadvantage in any type of situation that could easily become a contest of force (including both pimping and johning).

2. There has frequently existed, and will probably exist in much of the foreseeable future, social and structural advantages in favor of men when entering into contractual relationships. This has gradually changed in many western societies, but the disparities have not been entirely eliminated.

3. Libertarianism may view all contracts and labor transactions as fungible, and see society as nothing more than a sum-of-parts, free-association construct designed to accommodate the framework needed for those, but in practice, the purist form of Libertarianism has even less of a track record than the purist form of Socialism for maintaining a long-term functional society amongst a very large group of people. Most successful modern societies DO include some minimum provisions to "protect people from themselves" in professions where slavery or public health issues are at risk, and some go beyond that.

Or, as someone put it more pithily in a thread from long ago, one of the most basic purposes of society is to protect the women and children, and any society that doesn't tends to have a short half-life. Biology bows to nobody's philsophical delusions.

anony_mouse_ wrote: Right there, in a nutshell, is the essence of how prostitution comes about and subsists. Perhaps MM has so little respect for her own body that she can accommodate the idea that other people might not mind having foreign and potentially disease-ridden objects inserted into intimate parts of their body regularly in exchange for financial compensation.

That's a pretty low blow to call Megan's personal integrity into question on the basis of a libertarian view she holds.

Perhaps some don't mind, but it doesn't change the fact that for many/most, prostitution is an act of desperation in the absence of better options and/or the presence of severe financial distress, comparable to indentured servitude.

This statement applies much more readily to illegal prostitution as opposed to *legal* prostitution. Prostitution should be heavy regulated to minimize criminal abuse and/or occupational risk, but not fully outlawed. Full outlawing is an intrusion of the government into the private affairs of the population. It sets a precedent for banning stripping, pornography, and any other private activity with negative associations that discomforts a sufficient number of "concerned" outsiders who want to legislate their morality.

p.s. is anony_mouse_ the same person as anonymouse?

solarlux wrote: That's a pretty low blow to call Megan's personal integrity into question on the basis of a libertarian view she holds.

I'm sure she heard worse from the actual Catholics that occupied her youth. At any rate, principles are not principles unless you could conceivably live by them yourself; to say or act otherwise is pretty much the dictionary definition of hypocrisy. Libertarianism may like to pretend that its guiding principle is non-interference and that each man is a moral agent only unto himself, but again, what is the historical track record for that in practice?

solarlux wrote: Prostitution should be heavy regulated to minimize criminal abuse and/or occupational risk, but not fully outlawed. Full outlawing is an intrusion of the government into the private affairs of the population.

You can make the exact same argument about laws against murder and the rest of us will call you an emerging eugenicist. Does that bother you? If not, congratulations on being consistent, although I find that position repulsive.

solarlux wrote: It sets a precedent for banning stripping, pornography, and any other private activity with negative associations that discomforts a sufficient number of "concerned" outsiders who want to legislate their morality.

Bad news: most laws that do not deal directly with contract enforcement have some moral basis and could be dimissed by the same logic. You might not like the society that results, however.

solarlux wrote: p.s. is anony_mouse_ the same person as anonymouse?

Probably not. We mice are legion -- the average gestation period is only 18-20 days.

anony_mouse_ wrote: You can make the exact same argument about laws against murder and the rest of us will call you an emerging eugenicist.

And how exactly do we legalize murder in a way that "minimizes criminal abuse and/or occupational risk"?

Why does legalization have to imply approval? There are many things that I disapprove of but that I would not want forbidden by law because the law would cause more problems. Common examples: Recreational drug use, binge drinking, gambling, promiscuous sex ...

From what I've heard and read, prostitutes in the U.S. are primarily single mothers with drug problems. Some number may be young childless women with more expensive drug problems, and a very few (but disproportionately represented among the $1000/trick population) may be women who don't have kids or expensive drug habits.

Legalizing prostitution may not help the majority of prostitutes much, as the price would drop. Legalizing drugs would probably help more, as the cost of living of a single mother with a drug habit would go down significantly. Of course, with lower cost of drugs, there may be more women with drug habits, and an increase in the number of prostitutes.

But what I really want to know is how does one earn a living as a Morris dancer? All the Morris dancers I know (and there are many) spend more money on it than they make, even counting the value of the beer they are given.

"But if the only prostitutes were men selling themselves to women, no one would want to make it illegal."

How wrong you are...and since men make the laws, this would be one of the first things to be made illegal. I mean c'mon. Find me a sexually conservative white male law maker (since that's what most of them are) that is for women's sexual freedom and then I'll buy into your statement here.

solarlux wrote: and how exactly do we legalize murder in a way that "minimizes criminal abuse and/or occupational risk"?

Doesn't matter. How two people may agree that one can shoot or stab the other in the privacy of their own home, is their own business.

Not to mention the vast implications on doctor-assisted suicide and other eugenica that can easily be abused to commit murder.

anony_mouse_,

Don't forget agreed upon cannabalism, snuff films, fatal organ donation....

Libertarianism may like to pretend that its guiding principle is non-interference and that each man is a moral agent only unto himself, but again, what is the historical track record for that in practice?

I should clarify this statement: Someone could profess to live by the principle that non-interference trumps all and man is a moral agent only unto himself, leaving government primarily in the role of contract enforcement and securing the defense of the citizens both from acts against each other and acts of external third parties. I would disagree with it, and believe it to be a foolish utopian vision, but it would at least be consistent.

MM, however, does not hold that position, and has made that clear in both statement and in a number of her positions where she DOES favor an expanded role for the State when it coincides with her policy preferences to mitigate greater ills (e.g. carbon taxes). Well and good, but that being the case, it is quite fair for someone with different priorities to challenge her on the merits of the difference. Hence, she could not claim a standard Libertarian defense on non-interference for prostitution, unless it were something she would not object to engaging in herself if the need arose.

Example: I do not find fast-food work attractive, especially not at my current level of education and lifestyle preferences. But I have done it before, and if necessity demanded, I could do it again. It's not glamorous work but it is reasonable to expect that someone of able condition could do it, myself included. I do not find it reasonable, however, that someone could expect me to prostitute my body as legitimate work, which is a logical extension of supporting it as a state-sanctioned work profession (which has arisen as a problem, as noted in other recent threads, in Western countries where prostitution is legally recognized).

I half want prostitution legalized just for the OSHA regulations, rental car-like taxes on out of towners, insurance policies, ADA and discrimination lawsuits and awesome zoning battles.

And the subsequent unionizing, rate hikes and black market for 'unregulated' prostitutes...

Doesn't matter. How two people may agree that one can shoot or stab the other in the privacy of their own home, is their own business.

Of course, if you'd like to expound the logic to one extreme (government non-interference), how about we move in your direction (for government interference) and take it to the other extreme? Should the state outlaw mountain climbing since it carries a risk of suffering and death (to a climber or his/her partner)? Or perhaps the government should enact laws limiting caloric intake to prevent overeating. Because you know, some would say gluttony is a sin and demeans a person. We can't let people go about demeaning themselves (and potentially hurting themselves).

In fact, if you oppose anti-gluttony laws, then perhaps you yourself fail to personally value fitness and health... [I'm just mirroring the logic of your previous 'maybe Megan has no personal sexual dignity if she thinks prostitution should be legal' suggestion.]

Third of all, it's not necessarily true that no Dutch women will do the job; rather, as in other moderately skilled work, the immigrants may be undercutting the locals enough to push them out of the market. - Megan

No, it's definitely not true that NO Dutch women will do the job; in fact a small number do the job, notably heroin addicts and teenagers who have been lured into the business by handsome "boyfriends", often Moroccan, which has been a classic system of procuring for prostitution since at least the middle ages when it's recorded in Chinese novels. But only a tiny number of Dutch women are willing to do this work at the wage it commands, which is much higher than the wage at which they are willing to be stage actresses, waitresses, masseuses, or other kinds of body and service work.

I think what one needs to address is the difference in wage between a sex worker and a masseuse. What accounts for that wage differential? Very limited supply of labor. Why the limited supply? Because this is a job women are very reluctant to do. Why is that?

Look: if meeting the vast male demand for sex by having sex with multiple partners were enjoyable work for lots of women, then the Western world would be awash with women turning tricks for ten bucks. But something is inhibiting the vast majority of women from participating in this labor market, driving the price of sex work way up. There is a huge missing price point: men can have sex for free if they can go through a laborious negotiation process, or they can have sex for $100 and up. There are no inputs into this job, nothing keeping the price from dropping as far as the supply of labor can expand. So why don't women want to do this job? The contention of Kerry Howley is that women don't want to do this job because men have put false consciousness into their brains, convincing them that it is evil to have sex with lots of men, in order to.... ?????

Do you see that there is something in Kerry's argument that is denying women agency on a vast scale?

I understand your point that lots of people do jobs they hate, and you don't have a problem with that. But I feel like what's happened here is that Marx's point in the "Grundrisse" has come full circle: he said wage labor was like prostitution, and you're saying "yeah, and what's wrong with prostitution?"

And again, having said all that, I think we still agree that prostitution should probably be decriminalized. I just think there's no need to go the extra mile and pretend it's no worse than working in a widget factory.

This oppression of women argument...

Hypocritical and sexist men oppress women by instituting laws and customs that make it difficult and expensive for men to have casual sex.

Is that the argument? Because it doens't quite seem right to me.

If hypocritical and sexist men REALLY ran the world, [young, single] women would be castigated and arrested for NOT sleeping around.

Furthermore, there is this whole argument "sleeping around should/does not make a girl a slut". Yes it does. That's what the word means. What you are trying to say is that "slut" should not be a bad thing. Which it wouldn't be if men ran the world...

None of the slut-shaming makes sense unless you assume women live to give themselves to men in their purest possible form.

Of course not. Men like sluts; it's women don't. Slut-shaming is nothing more than an effort by members of a cartel to punish cheaters who are reducing the value of what they have to offer. You can't command monopoly rents if the slut down the block gives it away for free.

I'd think the econ types around her would understand that.

Also, for those who like anecdotes, I've seen pimps prosecuted. They are thoroughly frightening psychopaths. The pimp/prostitute relationship is basically the most abusive and dysfunctional romantic relationship you'll ever encounter. I don't see how legalization is going to change that.

I should have said, to make my point clearer, that legalizing the pimp/prostitute relationship is like legalizing domestic violence on the grounds that, hey, a battered wife must enjoy it or she'd leave. And pimps are an essential part of prostitution; most prostitutes wouldn't be doing what they do without pimps to lure them into it.

I'll agree with the prevailing consensus that it's stupid to put prostitutes in jail, as they are the actual victims here.

I think it's pretty clear that whoring is not a job many women (or men) would seek out, given a lot of alternatives. But it's worth pointing out that the practical alternatives available to us are not:

a. Prostitution
b. No prostitution

but rather

a. Legal, regulated prostitution
b. Illegal, unregulated prostitution

This is, as brooksfoe points out, basically a matter of (mostly) men with money and (mostly) women with attractive bodies and very few other ways to make money. That situation will persist for the forseeable future--in twenty years, being a single mom with a drug habit will *still* leave some women finding whoring as the best alternative they can find to make food and drug money. We're not going to get rid of the single moms with drug habits. We're not going to get rid of guys with money who want to go find a prostitute.

It seems to me that the costs of legalization are mainly offering social sanction to something that's a pretty awful way to live, maybe undermining some moral values, and maybe increasing the amount of prostitution by making it a less horrible lifestyle.

The benefits are that we ought to be able to make it safer for both prostitutes and johns, we ought to be able to get the slavery/human trafficking out of the business, and we ought to be able to require constant testing of prostitutes and johns for STDs, maybe make some effort at encouraging safe sex, etc.

Perhaps some don't mind, but it doesn't change the fact that for many/most, prostitution is an act of desperation in the absence of better options and/or the presence of severe financial distress, comparable to indentured servitude.

Agree 100%. I'm generally pretty libertarian on economic issues, but to treat sex the same as tennis shoes or beer or any other commodity strikes me as, to use one of Megan's favorite words, daft. Paid sex is subject to not only economic but also biological laws of supply and demand, and the two are not in harmony. With all due respect to Kerry Howley, her argument strikes me as the sort of dorm room thought experiment that well-off, well-educated women can afford to engage in freely as a form of provocateurship because they’re not dealing with reality, not something that would work in the real world.

It's not exactly scientifically controversial to posit that the pool of men who want casual sex is far larger than the pool of women who are willing to provide it free-of-charge, or that the opportunities to obtain it free-of-charge are unequal and rather idiosyncratic. Both of these are due to reasons of basic human biology. Prostitutes step in to partially make up the difference. Unfortunately for free market ideology, casual sex is unlike almost any other commodity in that high demand is not enough to produce a commensurate rise in supply, or even drum up increased supply beyond a certain minimal point, because a vast majority of women will not want to have casual sex with strangers no matter how much money there is to be made in doing so, or if they are, the amount they’d demand to be paid would price almost any potential consumer out of the market. Sex is not, generally speaking, a rationally valued commodity, by either purchasers or sellers. As a result, the nice libertarian model of autonomous individuals making rational exchanges of service for capital at a market-determined rate does not function very well in regard to it. Incidentally, I think Howley’s assumptions that the elimination of social penalties for female promiscuity are A.)achievable, and B.)would result in more women being willing to work as prostitutes are likewise ludicrous – male obsession with female sexual purity ain’t going anyway anytime soon, nor is a woman’s interest in not being perceived as promiscuous – again, for probably immutable biological reasons.

Anyway, the first point should be obvious to anyone who studies the market. Most women who end up in this line of work are generally either A.)paid astronomically (the “Emperor’s Club” set), B.)borderline unemployable in other lines of work, C.)in desperate financial straits, or D.)a combination of (C) and (D). The number of women who do it because they enjoy it would seem to be pretty small, and almost all of those would fall under category (A) and hence be out of the price range of most Johns. I think it’s right on to make the analogy to food – even women who enjoy casual sex and are very promiscuous, however many of them there are, are far more discriminating than prostitutes can afford to be in their choice of partners. This seems evident to me both in wealthy countries and poorer countries. Even in materially prosperous bastions of sexually enlightened European sophistication such as the Netherlands, where social and legal penalties for making a living as a prostitute are low or nonexistent, there is a need to import labor from the developing world to make up for a domestic shortfall, as several people have noted above. In poorer countries like Thailand and Cambodia, even what are by local standards astronomical wages (a prostitute in Bangkok can make in one night what even an educated professional Thai woman makes in a month) aren’t enough to induce enough local women to go into prostitution to meet demand, and what results is gangs abducting teenage girls, female children being sold into slavery, and other such horrors on the margins of the industry. We can try to convince ourselves that our own version of prostitution is a victimless crime, but given that the third world prostitutes we import produce a corresponding drop in supply in their countries of origin, and that prostitutes are far more likely to suffer abuse or violence even where it’s legal, that’s quite debatable. At best, it’s economic exploitation of domestic or developing world poverty and lack of opportunity, akin to paying illegal aliens sub-minimum wage to tend to your garden or buying clothes made via sweatshop labor. But often, it’s a lot worse.

In light of all this, I think one can say the state has a legitimate interest in tamping it down. The male libido being what it is, it can’t be eliminated, but I don’t think full legalization is the way to go either. A system like Sweden’s, in which solicitation of prostitution is illegal but the act itself is not, seems like the best of a bad a set of options. It provides prostitutes with at least some legal protection, and particularly protection from corrupt cops, but still provides a legal disincentive to keep incidences low. Ideally, this should be coupled with some sort of social spending to help people get out of the life if they want – I think this is one of the areas where state welfare action actually would be justified.

Of course not. Men like sluts; it's women don't. Slut-shaming is nothing more than an effort by members of a cartel to punish cheaters who are reducing the value of what they have to offer.

That's too simplistic. (Some) men like sluts for a roll in the hay. (Far fewer) men like sluts as potential long-term relationship or marriage partners. As a man who doesn't like sluts for either, I'll freely admit that many men have a capacity for self-serving rationalization, double standards, and hypocrisy in regard to this issue that is jaw-dropping at times.

Excellent posts Xeynon.

If it's legal to do it for free, why should it be illegal to do it for money?

If it's legal to do it for free, why should it be illegal to do it for money?

Let me give you an analogy. Say my Mexican friend Juan comes over to my house to help me pick tomatoes, because he's my friend and he enjoys the sunshine. That's fine, right? Now, say another Mexican, Jose, who is not my friend but a poor migrant worker, comes over not because he wishes to spend a pleasant few hours in the sun with me but because I am paying him 25 cents an hour to pick my tomatoes. My guess is you'd have a problem with that, and so would the law. Why? If it's legal for one Mexican to pick tomatoes for free, why should it be illegal for another to do it for money?

BTW thanks brooksfoe. As someone who's traveled quite a bit in SE Asia, and seen firsthand the developing-world-to-first-world path of exploitation among Filipina sex workers in Japan, I've thought a bit about this issue. While I call myself a libertarian, I do think this is one issue where the boilerplate libertarian line of reasoning breaks down.

Xenyon:

I think the argument about "if we legalize prostitution, it will indirectly encourage more enslavement of women in foreign countries" could be used to argue against virtually anything. For example, if we legalize working as a nanny or housekeeper for pay, and make it possible for women to come here from El Salvador or Cambodia and get those jobs, then fewer free women will be in such poverty that they take jobs as prostitutes at home. This, too, will presumably lead to greater demand for slave prostitutes.

Re: sluts: I realized sometime in high school that the term "slut" was inevitably used by guys to describe girls who were known to put out, but weren't willing to sleep with *them*. The usual snippet of conversation was something like

"Man, that girl is a slut."
"She wasn't interested, eh?"

My sense (determined by seconds of armchair speculation) is that more sexual freedom for women decreases the demand for prostitutes. Why buy milk when cows are cheap? From my own experience, I don't recall ever hearing of a guy my age among my college aged friends who would admit to having gone to a prostitute. I assume this had to do with the fact that, if you weren't a hunchback with serious body odor problems, you could probably manage to find a willing, non-paid partner, just by exploiting the fact that sex with someone you like is actually pretty fun.

Most women who end up in this line of work are generally either A.)paid astronomically (the “Emperor’s Club” set), B.)borderline unemployable in other lines of work, C.)in desperate financial straits, or D.)a combination of (C) and (D).

There are an awful lot of streetwalkers who are basically a combination of deeply deluded about their pimp's feelings for them and victims of some kind of abuse or neglect which makes the pimp's attentions seem worth the life. I've actually seen a 17-year-old girl testify in court that 1) her pimp put her on the street when she was 14, and 2) she still loved him and didn't want him to got to jail.

This is not a rational actor making a free choice. It's not even a desperately poor mother who puts her children above herself. It's just a girl who's been so badly mistreated by her family and others that being a streetwalker for a guy who beats her is an improvement.


And how exactly do we legalize murder in a way that "minimizes criminal abuse and/or occupational risk"?

Posted by solarlux | March 12, 2008 2:04 PM

By making death matches legal. Think "Blood Sport" without the back story.

Why not? We allow boxing, football, wrestling, hockey, all of which has resulted in on-field deaths and long-term disabilities.

And why shouldn't healthy men be allowed to enter into a contract where they know they have the potential to die? From a libertarian standpoint that is.

Half-canadian: You mean, like letting people enlist in the military?

I think the argument about "if we legalize prostitution, it will indirectly encourage more enslavement of women in foreign countries" could be used to argue against virtually anything.

Yes, it can. The difference is that most other lines of work are things women are willing to do for market-determined pay rates, things which make a greater contribution to the public good, and things which aren't so closely associated with sexual and drug abuse, violence against women, etc. You are correct that there will always be people attempting to enslave women for the purpose of prostitution. That problem ain't going away, and we need to fight it. The thing is, removing the social/legal stigma from prostitution by legalizing it makes that problem worse.

Re: sluts: I realized sometime in high school that the term "slut" was inevitably used by guys to describe girls who were known to put out, but weren't willing to sleep with *them*.

I'd agree that this does tend to describe usage of the word, but I don't think this totally covers the application of the concept.

I can't tell you how many guys I know who've done their share of sleeping around, but blanche at the thought of marrying a woman who's had as many sexual partners as they have.

Xeynon, the Juan/Jose analogy didn't really work for me. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding it, but it seems to be saying that while it's okay for Juan to pick my tomatoes for free because we like each other, I must pay Jose minimum wage to do the same thing.

If that's the case, the analogy doesn't actually answer my question: If it's legal to do it for free, why should it be illegal to do it for money?

If it's legal to do it for free, why should it be illegal to do it for money?

I find out you are seeing a prostitute. I don't tell your wife: legal

I find out you are seeing a prostitute. I don't tell your wife in exchange for money: blackmail, which is illegal.

I can think of other examples. Votes have already been mentioned.

Addressing the "slut" issue. In a way that may offend some people, but please note this is just a METAPHOR.

Having a relation with a women (from a male point of view) can be viewed as like climbing a mountain. Everyone wants to climb a mountain that is challenging, but possible.

If the mountain is impossible, we give up. If the mountain is too easy, a gentle hill that anyone can walk up, then it is boring, and probably the trails are worn and there is litter from previous climbers.

When talking to other climbers, everyone will want to emphasize that they conquered previously unreachable peaks, and nobody will admit that they had to restort to a gentle hill that had an escalator installed, and wheelchair ramps.

If someone mentions such a hill, men will criticize it to demonstrate that THEY have no need for stairways with guiderails.

NOTE: The actual level of difficulty will depend on the skill of the climber. What one man might regard as "too easy" the next might be thrilled to achieve.

(I, personally, tended to fall off the wheelchair ramps and give up.)

doctorpat, the blackmail bit was interesting, but not, I think, sufficiently analogous. Johns want to pay for sex; blackmail victims do not want to pay for silence.

Albatross, get your head out of your ***. Joining the military isn't a spectator sport. Death matches would be.
Anyone who can't differentiate between the two is dumber than coal.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding it, but it seems to be saying that while it's okay for Juan to pick my tomatoes for free because we like each other, I must pay Jose minimum wage to do the same thing.

The point I was trying to make is that you can't compare consensual sex to prostitution, because they are fundamentally different in a very important way. One is a mutually beneficial, voluntary activity, like conversation or pick-up basketball. The value which each party receives is from the act itself. The other is an economic transaction, which means that there are all kinds of opportunities for exploitation and abuse which result.

In the case of tomato picking, it's pretty clear how we reduce exploitation - labor laws, minimum wage, and the like. The thing is, with prostitution - as with tomato picking done by undocumented workers - it's hard to do that. Undocumented migrant workers, lacking money and legal resources, will provide their services for far less than the market rate because they have no choice. Ditto the majority of prostitutes, only it's even more extreme. What is market rate for an hour's worth of sex acts? Most women I know would refuse to do them for money no how much was offered. Even for those who might, it would certainly depend on the person paying. The VAST majority of women who would be indiscriminate about providing them are, like undocumented workers, in desperate, desperate, need of money. To make a living as a prostitute, you can't be choosy about your customers unless you're at the very high end of the industry. A vast majority of prostitution, therefore, is exploitative of economic distress on a wide scale - and for the reason that it is generally coercive to female sexual autonomy, not of legality. You can pass a law legitimizing the status of illegal workers, but you can't pass a law that will make more women want to work as prostitutes voluntarily. Furthermore, since there aren't enough women willing to work as prostitutes to meet demand, there is an incentive for gangs and human traffickers to take by force what can't be bought with money and force more women into the market. Given all this, society has a strong interest in reducing as much as possible the incidence of prostitution.

As I've acknowledged, I do think legalization has its benefits - better protection and safer working conditions for the prostitutes themselves, mainly. The thing is, these come at a heavy cost if we're talking full legalization. Splitting the difference - giving prostitutes legal protection while still using the law as a deterrent by prosecuting Johns - achieves the benefits of legalization without the drawbacks.

Perhaps a good penalty for being caught soliciting a prostitute should be having one's name publicized and put into a public database of known Johns. The shame factor would discourage solicitation and such a resource would also be useful to police in investigating crimes against prostitutes (most of which are committed by regular customers).

Johns want to pay for sex; blackmail victims do not want to pay for silence.

Really? I thought both would have preferred it for free, but are willing to pay rather than go without.

Xeynon, thanks for the clarification. I'm afraid that I still have to disagree with you, though.

The point I was trying to make is that you can't compare consensual sex to prostitution, because they are fundamentally different in a very important way. One is a mutually beneficial, voluntary activity, like conversation or pick-up basketball. The value which each party receives is from the act itself. The other is an economic transaction, which means that there are all kinds of opportunities for exploitation and abuse which result.

I think we may need to define what we mean by "consensual sex." For example, if a woman sleeps with her date because he brought her flowers, took her to a fancy restaurant, and then to front-row center seats at the most popular play on Broadway, is that consensual sex? (Bear in mind that she would not have slept with him if he'd brought over take-out Chinese to eat in front of her TV.)

A long time ago, I lived in a not-so-nice neighborhood in an East Coast city. The hookers on the street corner at the end of my block decided for themselves whose cars they climbed into. That looked consensual to me.

Undocumented migrant workers, lacking money and legal resources, will provide their services for far less than the market rate because they have no choice. Ditto the majority of prostitutes, only it's even more extreme.

I think you're confusing "market rate" with "minimum wage." The two are not identical.

"Market rate" is the lowest amount an employer can offer and still find a reasonably-competent worker; "minimum wage" is set by Congress and the various state legislatures.

Illegal aliens will often work for less than minimum wage; they thereby establish a market rate for the type of labor they provide.

As a rule, prostitutes charge considerably more than minimum wage (at least if calculated on a per-minute basis). This establishes the market rate for the particular services they provide.

To make a living as a prostitute, you can't be choosy about your customers unless you're at the very high end of the industry. A vast majority of prostitution, therefore, is exploitative of economic distress on a wide scale - and for the reason that it is generally coercive to female sexual autonomy, not of legality. You can pass a law legitimizing the status of illegal workers, but you can't pass a law that will make more women want to work as prostitutes voluntarily.

The last sentence may be true.

Furthermore, since there aren't enough women willing to work as prostitutes to meet demand...,

I think you're very wrong about that. If supply were really that tight, street-corner hookers would spend less time shivering in the night air, and charge a lot more for their services.

...there is an incentive for gangs and human traffickers to take by force what can't be bought with money and force more women into the market.

But now you're talking about slavery, not prostitution. And IMO, stuff like that is much less likely to happen once prostitution has been legalized.

And again, you haven't actually answered my question, which I'll rephrase as, "If promiscuity is legal, why should prostitution be illegal?"

doctorpat--

Johns want to pay for sex; blackmail victims do not want to pay for silence.

Really? I thought both would have preferred it for free, but are willing to pay rather than go without.

Clever phrasing, but intellectually dishonest.