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The art of explanation

24 Mar 2008 02:19 pm

Slate's What I got Wrong series on the five-year anniversary of the Iraq War, and similar efforts from other media outlets, have triggered a fair amount of irritation, especially among those who opposed it. Says Timothy Noah:


Why should you waste your time, at this late date, ingesting the opinions of people who were wrong about Iraq? Wouldn't you benefit more from considering the views of people who were right? Five years after this terrible war began, it remains true that respectable mainstream discussion about its lessons is nearly exclusively confined to people who supported the war, even though that same mainstream acknowledges, for the most part, that the war was a mistake. That's true of Slate's symposium, and it was true of a similar symposium that appeared March 16 on the New York Times' op-ed pages. The people who opposed U.S. entry into the Iraq war, it would appear, are insufficiently "serious" to explain why they were right.

I heard a fair amount of that this weekend. But I think it's seriously misguided.

The universe being a complicated place, you can usually tell multiple stories from the same pieces of evidence. We learn by gambling on what we think the best answer is, and seeing how it turns out. Most of us know that we have learned more about the world, and ourselves, from failing than from success. Success can be accidental; failure is definite. Failure tells us exactly what doesn't work.

Failure tells us more than success because success is usually a matter of a whole system. And as development economists have proven over and over and over again, those complex webs of interactions are impossible to tease apart into one or two concrete actions. Things can fail, on the other hand, at a single point. And even when they fail in multiple ways, those ways are usually more obvious than the emergent interactions that produced a success.

At the decision point where we decided to go into Iraq, there were two hypotheses we could have tested:

1) Something terrible will happen if we leave Saddam in power 2) We can depose Saddam and leave the world a better place

We chose to test hypothesis number two. So far, it looks like a dud.

Since it failed, the more interesting question is not what did you get right, but what did you get wrong. The people who were right can (and will) rewrite their memories of what they believed to show themselves in the most attractive light; they will come to honestly believe that they were more prescient than they were. This is not some attack on people who were against the war: I was wrong, they were right. But everyone does this with almost everything--indeed, not rewriting memory in this way is so rare that there's a clinical term for it. We call it "major depression". They will also quite possibly simply be wrong about how they got it right; correct analysis often operates at a subconscious as well as a conscious level.

The people who failed will also do this. But unlike the people who were right, there is a central fact stopping them from flattering themselves too much: things are blowing up in Iraq and people are dying. Thus they will have to look for some coherent explanation.

To be sure, many of those explanations are wan and self-serving--"I trusted too much." But others of them aren't. And the honest ones are vastly more interesting than listening to a parade of people say "Well, obviously, I'm a genius, and also, not mean."

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Comments (122)

It failed? The War in Iraq is a failure? Saddam has been deposed, has he not? In a strict sense, it succeeded. As far as leaving the world a better place after, it's hardly clear that we've failed. For one thing, we're not finished. If your favorite Presidential candidate is elected and pulls out the troops, then we will have failed. If we stick it out, we may succeed.

Failed? even as occupations go it has been a roaing success. We may be a bit to spoiled to appreciate our good fortune.

"Advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill," as Gildor says to Frodo in The Fellowship of the Ring. I think many people will not believe in our own fallibility, create stories about the wonderful past, and fail to acknowledge the inherent difficulty in disentangling cause and effect.


Slate and others are pointing this out. Good!

We chose to test hypothesis number two. So far, it looks like a dud.

Megan, part of the problem here is that the only measure by which we can reliably say it "was a dud" is the measure of how many people say it was a dud.

This isn't necessarily a wholly bad measure, but it's sure a rubber ruler. I was just looking at another blog talking about this, and for each of the examples of the "horrible things" that made Iraq a "bad war", either comparisons of previous efforts and previous wars make them look somewhat silly, or the current evaluation of them is accompanied by the whistling sound of goalposts receding into the distance.

Not to mention the occasional ones that are simply flat out prevarication, like the notion that Bush somehow "slanted the intelligence" through his control of the CIA (run by a Clinton appointee) to manipulate the conclusions of the intelligence analysts (almost all career civil servants) to get the conclusions he wanted (which happen to be essentially identical to the conclusions of the previous administration as evidenced by the various Clinton-administration officials' speeches in 1998.)

So, let's go at this from the other side. Explain to me how you believe that a military operation done with only about 150,000 military in theatre, that removed two antagonistic governments that were already involved in active hostilities against the US, replacing them with relatively friendly governments, with only about 4,000 fatalities over only five years (comparable to single battles in previous wars, and fewer than a similar period of peacetime in the previous administration), and apparently reducing the major active forces to disarray, constitutes a failure?

The truth is that compared to other conflicts, the War on Terror has been an amazing success, comparable to Zama. If you start out by trying to figure out how it failed you are starting with a self-contradiction.

Charlie:

But even that misses the point; we have no idea what would would have happened had we backed off (or rather, we have many and varied ideas), and so no way to judge if the likely alternatives were actually worse than what has happened or not.

Charlie,
Examination of the political and military and economic dynamics of Iraq that ran deeper than your sound-bite-length analysis would preclude your optimism about a “relatively friendly” government, since the Maliki regime isn’t really functioning as a government throughout massive sections of the country. Manifesting concern for the 4,000 dead US personnel and thousands more Iraqi civilians whose deaths you treat blithely (in the first case) and ignore altogether (in the second case) would also complicate your narrative, but make it better too. A focus on what we have failed to do in Afghanistan, in part because of a lack of personnel and equipment and policy attention all diverted to Iraq, would also make your account better. Some focus on reporting that al Qaeda is as strong as it has been since 9/11 would also make you wonder, Was this the best way we could have tried to protect ourselves? with more skepticism and insight than you have displayed in your post.

"...2) We can depose Saddam and leave the world a better place...

"We chose to test hypothesis number two. So far, it looks like a dud."

I'm sorry, but anyone who can argue with a straight face that getting rid of Saddam was "a dud" is...well, polite words fail me.

We kicked out a dangerous tyrant who had fought not one but two wars of aggression against his neighbors, killing on the order of a million people in the process. That's not including his thuggery against his own people, for which the count is several hundred thousand.

Oh, and let's not forget that both the domestic thuggery and the foreign aggression involved poison gas, which--last I looked--is a WMD.

I am proud of what we did in Iraq. Even if we don't achieve the larger objectives involved--creating a friendly, democratic ally to anchor our position with in the region, so we can stop depending on other thugs like Egypt and Saudi--it will have been worth it just to get rid of Saddam.

I am deeply disappointed in you that you don't see it the same way.

Wow, such wonderful cognitive dissonance. If we measure Iraq by the expressed goals of Bush from the war's inception, it is a colossal failure. It was supposed to be cheap (only a few billion), it was to be quick, and we were to be hailed as liberators. Iraq was supposed to become a peaceful democracy that would buttress the region with stability. It was supposed to quash terrorism because they would shrivel when exposed to the light of democracy. Removing Saddam was only a foregone conclusion, one of many stated goals of the invasion. So overall yes, the war was an absolute failure. It is an absolute failure. And it is amusing to see it defended by what I am assuming are conservatives. This is why conservatism is a bankrupt ideology. This blogpost will serve as a warning to others.

It also raises the important point that it is possible to be right for the wrong reasons.

The truth is that compared to other conflicts, the War on Terror has been an amazing success, comparable to Zama. - Charlie

But even that misses the point; we have no idea what would would have happened had we backed off (or rather, we have many and varied ideas), and so no way to judge if the likely alternatives were actually worse than what has happened or not. - Mike E.

Gents, the Iraq War has been more expensive in American lives and treasure than 9/11, the most spectacularly successful (if evil can be called a success) terrorist act in our history. (That's not counting the loss in Iraqi lives and treasure.) When sucessfully averting disaster is more expensive than the disaster itself, I prefer not to undertake the venture.

As for Saddam Hussein being a murderous tyrant, see Megan's post on sunk costs. He had killed hundreds of thousands of people a decade or more in the past, and deposing him didn't resurrect anybody. The question is, how many more deaths would he have caused in the future. Given his atrophied military, I'd say comparatively few.

Oh, and Megan, one could get around the memory rewriting problem by just looking up the arguments against war that opponents were making in 2002 - 2003. Or by checking what they say now against what they said at the time.

When I think about the Iraq war, I always think of a roulette wheel. If someone gives you a 100-1 payoff on a single spin, you TAKE it. And if you lose, no one should come up to you and say "what did you do wrong?" The fact is, the odds were slim, but the expected payoff was >0 and so you should take the bet.

This is why you don't ask the "winners" what they did "right". In the roulette example, people telling you not to bet would be "right" 37 of 38 times - and think themselves geniuses - and yet the gambler is the one with an expected payoff >0.

Now whether the expected payoff in Iraq was positive remains to be seen. But by asking the "losers" what they assumed going in, it allows you see if their assumptions (e.g. that the payoff was 100-1 vs 35-1 or that there were only 15 slots instead of 38) were at least correct.

Good grief, Megan, where did you come up with your short little span of attention? It's way too soon to be declaring our efforts in the M.E. a failure--or a success, for that matter, especially since our long-term commitment is (as always, sadly) subject to the fickleness of the voting public. We've certainly made some steps in the right direction, at least.

Gents, the Iraq War has been more expensive in American lives and treasure than 9/11, the most spectacularly successful (if evil can be called a success) terrorist act in our history. (That's not counting the loss in Iraqi lives and treasure.) When sucessfully averting disaster is more expensive than the disaster itself, I prefer not to undertake the venture.

Sure, if you assume a preference for 3000 non-combatant citizens losing their lives occasionally while an an already recessionary economy finds a new sinkhole to fall into, instead of taking the Middle Eastern appetite for terror onto a battlefield where many of the terrorists' targets at least have the privilege of being armed and remarkably dangerous.

More to the point, you are demonstrating the same kind of big-picture myopia that seems to afflict MM's analysis and that of a good many other present war opponents. First, there is the fact that US policy toward the ME since the 1970s help create Saddam and other terror-happy environments in the region by assuming that thugs were a viable means to an end if they promoted "stability". My, but that worked out well. Let's ignore them and hope they go away!

Second, there is the fact that this was not the first time that the WTC had been targeted, and in both cases, the objective was to topple it sideways. The 1993 bombing might have even succeeded if the bombers had known more about the foundations. Anticipated death toll, perhaps 25,000 persons in the tower itself and up to 225,000 more in the horizontal path of destruction and surrounding debris splash. At 9/11, OBL expressed interest in causing the towers to topple sideways above the impact point, with a smaller but still substantial death toll well in excess of 3,000. It was merely a fluke of the the WTC's unique design that it pancaked vertically, and even then, had the bombers understood the failure mechanism better and brought the planes in lower at a sharper angle, they could have easily succeeded in trapping and killing at least 10,000 people per tower above the impact point, and also killed an even greater number of resuce personnel as the impact-to-collapse time would have been substantially reduced.

Any argument deriving around the premise of "it was only 3,000 people" is merely a form of rhetorical Russian roulette.

Megan, I find a lot of your stuff interesting. But how is it that you got the entire 19% assembled in a single comment thread?

Guys, if you think Iraq is a success, then I invite you to take a stroll through Baghdad without a bodyguard. Any neighborhood at all, not counting the Green Zone. I won't insist that it be the worst neighborhood (there are plenty of American neighborhoods that I wouldn't stroll through undefended), just any neighborhood at all in Baghdad. If you are afraid to take me up on that challenge, then I'll call Iraq a failure, and you can sputter your pathetic excuses and continue to demand that people take you seriously.

What are we discussing here? We will never be able to test the counterfactual, so what's the point of "what would Saddam have done if he had stayed in power and had at some point gotten WMD?" And without a deadline, the goal of democracy in the Middle East is not exactly informative (if the Middle East gets a functional democracy, say, 200 years from now... is that a success of the current war?).

So we will never settle those issues. Fair enough. We won't learn much quarreling over them.

But that wasn't the point of this blog! The point was: something went wrong and who can we learn the most from?

Did something go wrong? From the point of view of the original planning, the war was a total flop. Wait: this is not judgment on geopolitical-engineering or even war-on-terror untestable goals. Just that, given the original plans, budgets, schedules, estimates, and the two stated/immediate objectives (Al Qaeda was in bed with Saddam and we would cut those links; and Saddam had WMD and we would get rid of them), nothing went right. Perhaps we're fixing things now, perhaps we're not. But when we got started, we got it wrong and, a lot later, a lot more people than originally thought have died and so many more have suffered avoidable losses.

If you're OK with that, now who could we learn lessons the most valuable lessons from? That's what this blog was about. Not even what those lessons are, but who can give us more perspective on what they could be.

Wow, such wonderful cognitive dissonance. If we measure Iraq by the expressed goals of Bush from the war's inception, it is a colossal failure.

Really, cite please. What were the “expressed goals of Bush from the war’s inception”?


Guys, if you think Iraq is a success, then I invite you to take a stroll through Baghdad without a bodyguard. Any neighborhood at all, not counting the Green Zone. I won't insist that it be the worst neighborhood (there are plenty of American neighborhoods that I wouldn't stroll through undefended), just any neighborhood at all in Baghdad. If you are afraid to take me up on that challenge, then I'll call Iraq a failure, and you can sputter your pathetic excuses and continue to demand that people take you seriously.

Idle, self-contradictory blather with no apparent rationale, logic, or objective. Six months or a year ago you could have made the same challenge about other neighborhoods that have since settled down. Six to twelve months before that, same thing, and on backward to the start of the Surge. Your test is flawed, your premise is baseless, and I seriously doubt you are ready and waiting to PayPal the plane fare if someone actually wanted to take you up on that.

Well, anony_mouse_, what would count as success in Iraq as far as you're concerned?

Better question: How many more innocent foreigners, people who were never, ever a threat to you, will have to die before you contemplate the possibility that the invasion and occupation of Iraq is a failure?

What are we discussing here? We will never be able to test the counterfactual, so what's the point of "what would Saddam have done if he had stayed in power and had at some point gotten WMD?"

While this is technically correct, it doesn't mean that we have no data to work with. Saddam was 69 and had two highly competitive and imginatively cruel sons. The UN weapons inspections had been gamed down to a joke, large quantities of goods were known to be smuggled across the Syrian border, and European and other trading partners were pressing for an end of the sanctions.

A very plausible outcome is that Saddam would have lived and ruled for perhaps another ten years, maybe fifteen, before naturally succumbing to the fate of all men, while essentially resuming normal trade activities and probably rebuilding, or at least attempting to rebuild, some of his expired weapons capability. His death would have been followed by a bloody power struggle between his two sons, possibly splitting the Ba'athist loyalists behind each, concluding when one finally succeeded in destroying the other and taking control, and then continuing to stir up the same kind of trouble pots as the father.

That's best case, where Iran doesn't decide to take a piece of the action and/or Kurdistan doesn't attempt seccession, creating another Iraq/Iran style war with similarly bloody results.

I don't see how we could possibly have concluded that removing Saddam would make the world other than a better place. Certainly the chaos after his removal was not dealt with effectively, but the fact remains that tens of millions more Iraqis now have different future prospects than the ones who had a certain future under Hussein -- primarily his even more murderous sons Uday and Qusay.

I would also argue that Hussein, were he still the reigning despot there, would now be working on a nuclear weapons program by arguing the need for one due to the existence of such a program in neighboring Iran. And as usual, the saps at the UN and citizens of other western countries along with the American media would be claiming Hussein had every right to run such a program, as these folks are always skeptical of our intentions while celebrating the benevolence of any dictator. Just as our own western Left loved "Uncle Joe" Stalin until his death, when the massive crimes he had perpetrated were no longer concealed.

I always felt that the 9/11 connections as an argument for removing Saddam were the worst. The entire period of containment from Desert Storm until Iraqi Freedom were argument enough: a period throughout which Hussein played cat-and-mouse games over the terms that ended the Desert Storm conflict, ludicrously trusting Saddam and leaving him in power.

Of course it's a mess over there now. But that mess would be even worse if we were still in the sole position of attempting to keep Iraq contained while Hussein played on western patsies all too willing to blame America for all of his own misgovernance and abuses.

thoreau wrote: Better question: How many more innocent foreigners, people who were never, ever a threat to you, will have to die before you contemplate the possibility that the invasion and occupation of Iraq is a failure?

That's not a better question; it's another biased test designed to reinforce your prejudices with no respect for context. Let's stick with the first one:

Well, anony_mouse_, what would count as success in Iraq as far as you're concerned?

And I ask, what is it about the present state that makes it unsuccessful?

First: Baghdad was a primary residence area for Saddam and his loyalists, and was correspondingly one of the few areas where he maintained reliable infrastructure. As such, it suffered the greatest disruption from the war and held the largest internal pockets of opposition (i.e., excluding the exploitative activities of AQI and other non-national resistances that swelled early in the war effort). Combine that with the potentially demoralizing effect that the Green Zone had in cordoning off the 'good guys' from the 'everyone else', and Baghdad will, naturally, be the last place that is cleaned up. That's purely a logistics issue.

Second: Infrastructure is improving across the country as rebuilding efforts continue, including areas where it had been grossly neglected; the Kurdish region now operates freely and is increasingly properous; there are no longer child prisons operating in Iraq; the extensive organized network of opression via terror and torture is no longer operating; the informal networks of same that arose immediately after the Ba'athist deposition are being rooted out; local governments and community policing are icreasingly being established and are functional; the ecological and economic war against the Marsh Arabs has been ended; Iraq overall now has much greater freedom in economic, political, and speech associations; Kuwait and Israel now have a major source of sovereignty threat removed; and Syria, Iran, and Pakistan are more than a little spooked. Hard to guage the mood of the Saudis, but they've been starting to allow a surprising number of small liberties that would have been unthinkable just ten years ago.

But what are these things to you? Not much, it would appear.

I'll do some editing on MarkG's post:

I don't see how we could possibly have concluded that insert any government program here would make the world other than a better place. Certainly the unintended but predictable consequences was not dealt with effectively

Yeah, clearly you guys were right to push for this. I mean, why on earth should advocates for a massive state program feel any guilt over predictable (if unintended) consequences?

Next time I'll take my foreign policy advice from you guys.

Thoreau, your latest post continues to maintain delusions of substantive adequacy. If all you can do is spew anger at not having found yourself a claque of mindless sycophants, may I suggest you transfer your arguments to the Democratic Underground?

Lack of sycophants has nothing to do with my anger. Rather, I'm angry over the giant stack of dead bodies that you hawks piled up.

I don't expect you to understand. This sort of thing requires both a brain and a conscience.

One test regarding the invasion of Iraq is to ask yourself the following: if you were an average Iraqi living in Iraq, would you have wanted the US to invade?

Even with all of the problems of the subsequent occupation, I've always felt that I would prefer hope for my children - hope other than that the eventual struggle between Uday and Qusay would end quickly. Hard as it has been, if I were living in Iraq, I'd have wanted to be liberated. And with things getting so much better since the Surge, the question has gotten easier to answer.

If you think Iraq is a good place to raise kids then I suggest you take your kids there. Otherwise, shut up.

Megan proclaims that we can learn more from the people who wrong then the people who were right.*
Well, I am curious - what has she learned?

Last time I saw her write on the subject, I thought her conclusion was that there was nothing she could learn from those opposed to the war because they were right by chance. Oh well.

As a side-note, part of the issue here is that most pundits supported the war. Even if they did have more to teach (and could acknowledge their errors!), the marginal benefit of one or two more anti-war voices should be high.

Tom

If you think Iraq is a good place to raise kids then I suggest you take your kids there. Otherwise, shut up.

Where does she say that? The question is whether it is a better place now than with Saddam in power.

Please learn to understand the notion of a comparison. Otherwise, shut up.

Please stop pretending that it's perfectly fine to make apologies for bloody chaos and an unjustified invasion. In other words, shut up.

Here's my basic points: Phrenologists, flat earthers, and Communists are not treated as Serious People with useful things to say. Why on earth would we accord that treatment to Iraq war apologists?

Here's my basic points: Phrenologists, flat earthers, and Communists are not treated as Serious People with useful things to say. Why on earth should we accord respectful treatment to Iraq war apologists?

4,000 American soldiers died so we could "test" hypothesis No. 2? Oh, I forgot. No one cares about dead American soldiers or their families--what matters is those who were idiotically wrong about a purely elective "preemptive" war might now have their feelings hurt if we start pointing fingers and calling them to account for why they did. Any one remember two-by fours? This is a sick discussion, and you people should be ashamed of yourselves. Admit you were wrong, and never, ever advocate wars you won't personally fight in again.

Aargh! Thought I'd only posted that one after I fixed it. Let's try this once more: (with a few more revisions added in)

Here's my basic point: Phrenologists, flat earthers, Holocaust deniers, those people who claim they can find groundwater with y-shaped sticks, Klansmen, and Communists are not treated as Serious People with useful things to say. Why on earth should we accord respectful treatment to Iraq war apologists?

Please stop pretending that it's perfectly fine to make apologies for bloody chaos and an unjustified invasion...Phrenologists, flat earthers, and Communists are not treated as Serious People with useful things to say

So in other words, it's impossible to change your mind about anything, or have a rational debate, because you've picked your position and there's no way to change it.

That's fine; nothing wrong with that. But it's not an excuse either rudeness or deliberately distorting what others say.

Ann,

Why speculate on how you would feel in an utterly foreign situation? Do you have some experiences that qualify you to assess how Iraqis are feeling? I think your question is a good one, but I think we should just ask Iraqis.

This poll
suggests the opposite to your intuition. I am open to other polls if you have seen them. Maybe views have changed since September. As a war supporter who deeply regrets his earlier beliefs, I'd like to believe so.

Tom

Which dead bodies should I change my mind about, Rob? Which people should I excuse for being flat out wrong about the mess that led to those deaths?

Stop defending something as blatantly wrong as phrenology, and I'll start being nice.

thoreau, out of curiosity, where did you learn to read? First you seriously distort what Ann said, and now you somehow miss the part where I say there's "nothing wrong" with having your mind made up. OK? I'm not asking you to change your mind.

I'm asking you to stop being such an asshole (please).

In regard to your post, OK, I typed too hastily.

In regard to Ann's post, it's clear what sort of BS she was trying to sell, even if she phrased everything rather carefully so that she didn't quite come out and say that Iraq is a fine place to raise kids.

Side note on previous comment: I should use the preview function.

Anony_mouse,

Your claims in favor of the war's success:

Improved infrastructure: Huh? After hundreds of billions of dollars, we are barely above (now) and frequently have been below the pre-war levels of oil production and energy.

On Iraqi freedom, the Brookings report rates Iraq between Syria and Vietnam on press freedom.

Can you cite your source for the reduction in torture? And how did you conclude that Syria, Iran and Pakistan are more than a little spooked? The current Iraqi government is an ally of Iran. Most observers credit our invasion with an increase in Iranian power.

How can our war be such a success if, five years in, we have to keep more than 100K troops in Iraq to prevent complete collapse? Do you think the Iraq war has boosted or harmed American's image in the world? Led to more or fewer recruits for Al Qaeda?

Tom

Man, talk about "dead enders" in their "last throes."

If Iraq is such a paradise of freedom & hope, why have two million-plus middle-class & professional people (those most needed for the democracy you imagine there) left, often to be stranded in other countries while their money runs out?

the Middle Eastern appetite for terror onto a battlefield where many of the terrorists' targets at least have the privilege of being armed and remarkably dangerous.

Oh, those dirty Middle Easterners, they have such an "appetite for terror." And, oddly enough, the actual terrorists (Attracted there by the U. S, presence, but it's better to kill & maim hundreds of thousands of dirty furriners than to have to "fight them here"--could you bastards be more cynical?) continue to use asymmetrical warfare tactics--the majority of U. S. casualties are from mines, roadside bombs, & "IEDs," not actual combat.

As far as successful in terms of George Bush's stated rationales, which one? I well remember when all current war-mongers were screeching about "mission creep" during the Balkan adventurism under Clinton, but Bush's story changes every ten minutes.

our long-term commitment is (as always, sadly) subject to the fickleness of the voting public.

Oh, that democracy, it's sadly fickle here in America, but good for those foreigners. Worth 4,000 American lives, thousands of lost extremities & eyes, damaged brains, as well as X billion dollars.

But, as Dick Cheney says about the opinion & will of the American people: "So?"

Look, you morons. I'm sick of arguing about this. The fact is, as Megan says, if we hadn't invaded Iraq and killed Saddam, he would have kept on building and accumulating his WMDs, and do you know what he would have done with them? Attacked us. Yes, us. I'm not kidding. We'd have mustard gas up to our eyeballs. If we hadn't invaded him, he would be invading us right now--as we talk on Megan's fine econoblog. How would you like that, you miserable peace-loving hippies?

It was either us or him, and we took option two--him. RIP and adios, you Dorito-eating dictator.

But we did it morally. Just like the meat Megan eats, Saddam was humanely raised and humanely slaughtered. That's how come it was so expensive.

I'm going to bed now. I have vertigo.

I was one of those people who were right, and I still support the war in Iraq. I said at the time that it would take 5-10 years, and so far, I am right on target.

And if I were a few years younger, I would have fought in it. But DESERT STORM was my last war, alas. My son actually did go to Iraq. And everyone I've talked to in the military thinks we did the right thing.

Or would you rather have had one of our cities nuked before we started to do something about Muslim fanatics bent on their world wide jihad?

This person two posts above who is calling herself anony_mouse_ is not anony_mouse_. She's an impostor and I am the victim of identity theft. I am the real anony_mouse_. False-anony_mouse_ is correct in that I always agree with everything Megan says, but that is only because Megan is always right. If it weren't we would have a tragedy of the commons-type of an issue. Please, do not listen to false-anony_mouse_. Even if I say that I'm really me, don't listen to me. From now on, ignore me.

If you people really think we're winning this war, I've got a bridge to nowhere to sell you. First, the numbers. As we've debated before, the top guesses are that maybe there are 100,000 Iraqis killed. 100,000 in five years? We need to do better.

In Vietnam, people say we killed 1,000,000--and that was before the days of precision-guided missiles. Hell, Hitler killed 6,000,000 of the enemy in half the time.

What's wrong with this war, is that we've got 150,000 American troops sitting around in the Green Zone eating Taco Bell, smoking cigarettes, watching the Super Bowl, and complaining about the weather. That's the wrong way to run a war.

We need to get our troops out in enemy territory and start winning this war--by fighting. Sen. John McCain fought in Vietnam the proper way, by dropping bombs on villages and killing every enemy man, woman, and child. That's how you win wars. Listen and learn.

This thread is disgusting. Thoreau and Tom G. are right. The first step in figuring out how not to fail again is to admit that you have failed. Most of the people on this thread can't even get that far.

I can't figure out how any of you people ever make any money. When your stock is down 70%, do you say, "Wow, good thing I bought that stock -- otherwise I might've bought some other security that's down 80%!"

It's pathetic. I hope at this point Megan is starting to recognize why Tim Noah is right.

Rex-

If you really believe that invading Iraq saved us from being nuked then I think you need rubber sheets for your incessant bed wetting.

You also need a brain.

Thoreau:

I don't see how we could possibly have concluded that insert any government program here would make the world other than a better place. Certainly the unintended but predictable consequences was not dealt with effectively

Yeah, clearly you guys were right to push for this. I mean, why on earth should advocates for a massive state program feel any guilt over predictable (if unintended) consequences?

Look, I'm tired of reprising the reasons for the Iraq invasion again and again to those who never paid any attention to the Saddam problem throughout the '90s. Certainly we can all fall back on some libertarian trope that the War was nothing but a vast government program surreptitiously foisted upon us by Pentagon bureaucrats and political representatives seeking to extend their own power, reach, and reelection potential. But in the case of representatives, it's counterintuitive to assume they would lavish our taxpayers on folks in Iraq who clearly are not amongst their voting constituents. So the latter claim is a bit weak.

How exactly the Iraq war is supposed to represent an expansive program of the US federal government is unclear to me, too. I mean, we had to do something to reestablish governance there in order to prevent a takeover by even worse tyrannical rulers or extremist murderers. It's not primarily a matter of trying to find new ways of meddling in Iraqi affairs for the hell of it. Nor did we arrive with the intention of spreading our form of wealthy post-New-Deal, post-Great-Society federal programs along with universal health care.

If there's any government program to be instituted there, that is the business of the Iraqis now, and not just that of some tin-pot despot enriched and empowered by the crude percolating out from under his feet.

As for "predictable consequences," I'm not sure what you mean. We were, after all, also warned that our troops would be slaughtered mercilessly within hours of invasion by the Iraqis deploying mustard gas. The prognosticators have a long list of failures behind them, no matter which side of the pre-invasion debate they took.

Yes, there were predictable consequences. Most of them failed to materialize and have hence been forgotten. As for the rest: Hey, life is a quagmire.

MarkG-

If you still don't get it, then we should consult a physician about having you declared legally braindead.

After defeating the Romans twice, at the cost of enormous losses to his own army, Pyrrhus is alleged to have said that "one more such victory would utterly undo him." Can the US stand another victory like the one we've "won" in Iraq? If John McCain is our next president, we'll see.

As for "predictable consequences," I'm not sure what you mean. We were, after all, also warned that our troops would be slaughtered mercilessly within hours of invasion by the Iraqis deploying mustard gas.

Think for just a second, MarkG. Who was it who was telling us the Iraqis HAD mustard gas? It was the ADVOCATES of the war. Not the opponents.

The prognosticators have a long list of failures behind them, no matter which side of the pre-invasion debate they took.

No, we don't. My only failure in prognostication about this war came in the spring of 2004, when I mistakenly came to believe that Iraq, despite the chaos and horror engendered by our invasion, was in the process of settling down into some kind of less-murderous stasis. In fact the ethnic cleansing and mass murder were just getting started. My failure was that I wasn't pessimistic enough.

1. We were, indeed welcomed as liberators. By millions. I was there. I saw it. Well, not millions. But throngs of hundreds and thousands.

2. Saddam did, indeed, have mustard gas as well as nerve agents. I can think of at least 517 pieces of chemical munitions that were recovered. He does not seem to have been mass manufacturing new ones, but he did not destroy his existing stocks, as he was required to do under the terms of the cease fire and the UNSC resolutions

3. The sanctions were failing. I saw this with my own eyes, too: Entire elevators and other pieces of equipment lying around the Baghdad airport with the French shipping labels still on them.

4. 100,000 Iraqi dead? Blame the ones who killed them. Hint: For the most part, it wasn't us, dipshit. Unless you blame England for the Holocaust, too.

5. Nobody was arguing that Saddam was responsible for 9/11. Rather, given the many connections between Izzat Ibrahim al-Duri and Ayman al-Zawahari, Saddam was an obvious source of potential logistic and financial support for FUTURE attacks against the United States. The 9/11 commission itself found "all kinds of ties, all kinds of connections" between Hussein's regime and Al Qaeda.

6. Clinton's own justice department found that Hussein and Al Qaeda were playing footsie, and said as much in their 1998 indictment of Osama Bin Ladin. Wow, that sure showed 'em, huh?

7. Even if you didn't get the message, Moammar Ghadaffi of Libya got it loud and clear - and dismantled his own WMD program (which WAS connected to Al Qaeda.) ("I saw what happened to Saddam Hussein, and I was afraid.")

I supported the toppling of Saddam Hussein. I was right then, and I'm right now.


I think you make a good point, Megan.

thoreau –

My compliments on the civility of your discourse. You’re a credit to the idea of reasonable, respectful dialogue.

If by "nobody" you mean "The Entire Bush Administration and their attendant Right Wing Noise Machine", then you are correct. As Sgt. Troy Barlow might say, stop [virtually] speaking right now Jason.

Megan's lengthy, yet content-free post here leads one to believe that:

1. She was incredibly wrong about the Iraq War
2. She's not quite ready to fully admit this
3. Because of 1., she's not really a libertarian, but more of a pseudo-libertarian {shudder}.
4. She still refuses to read and/or fully absorb the funny and correct, http://highclearing.com/index.php/archives/2008/03/21/8027

"Look, I'm tired of reprising the reasons for the Iraq invasion again and again to those who never paid any attention to the Saddam problem throughout the '90s."

Gosh, you mean like massive No-Fly Zones and weapons inspectors? And weekly bombing raids? You mean like that lack of attention? You mean like rendering Saddam virtually militarily impotent--as the weapons inspectors fully believed (and were not soon enough proved [darn] right? You mean like that?

The calculus of people killed and the morality of a war is always difficult. In retrospect, Lincoln was wrong to accept the challenge of Civil War. Life is an 'inalienable right,' 350 thousand dead on the Union side was too high a price. Voting would have taken place in Delaware and Virginia in 1867; it would not have been the end of 'government by the people.' This war so far is reasonable. Saddam supported terrorist organizations and WMD. The Iraq War syndrome from Iraq I is likely the result of chemical agents used against us. It would likely have happened again, perhaps against us here. There is honor in fighting in defense even if you die, as the woman threatened by Phil Spector; my gravest respect for those who have been killed in our defense.

That the Iraq war was a disaster is not just conventional wisdom it is wisdom. It was an incredibly expensive program, in dollars, American lives, human lives, international good will, and military strength which is, never mind what you think of it, a scarce resource. For this staggering price what have we purchased? I am not convinced that the average Iraqi's life is better now than it was 5 years ago. Or 10 years ago. I am not convinced that the improvement, if it ever comes, will be worth the misery that real people endured. I doubt that Iraq would or could do any real damage to the united states.

That there are adult human beings that use Sadaam's deadly war against Iran to damn him and at the same time support the united states starting deadly wars against both Iraq and Iran has me disgusted by their thoughtlessness.

Some argue that there is no counter factual. That we don't know what would happen if we hadn't attacked Iraq. So it must have been a good idea? There are any number of courses of action that we have never taken that we rightfully assume foolish, and we assume that they are foolish with far less evidence than Iraq has provided of our folly. For the price of 500 billion dollars to 1 trillion dollars and a couple hundred thousand lives is what we have gained in Iraq the best that our country can do for the welfare of either our nation or the world? Really?

Every day I remember and pray for those people who jumped from the Towers and fell a hundred storeys because some Islamo Jihadi wanted to make a Statement.

I believe that anyone who intentionally disremembers these horrid deaths is a terrrorist and not merely anti-war.

We have lost 4000 brave americans from the many who have gone to Iraq and have spent 5 years of their lives killing terrorists - the same crazed Jihadi scum that forced those people to jump 100 hundred storeys to a very painful death.

Had our troops not killed terrorists in Iraq there is absolutely no doubt that over 100,000 terrorists would be spreading death and destruction in America and elsewhere today.

Yes, the world is a better place becauase we have killed thousands of terrorists in Iraq.

"It would likely have happened again, perhaps against us here."

No. The chances that it would have happened again are incredibly small. Saying so does not make it true.

"There is honor in fighting in defense even if you die"

Easily said by someone who did not fight and die, however much respect for the dead soldiers you claim. But in this instance, it wasn't about defense, no matter what the Bush Administration told you in 2002 and 2003 and since. And no matter what you still, for whatever reason, believe.

It's long past time to man up and admit you were wrong about Iraq, michael. Loud wrong.

"Had our troops not killed terrorists in Iraq there is absolutely no doubt that over 100,000 terrorists would be spreading death and destruction in America and elsewhere today."

No, there's plenty of doubt in the Reality-Based Community.

When I look at the Iraq War, my patriotic heart starts beating faster and I almost get a tear in my eye.

The Iraq War is/was the greatest war in our war-loving nation's history. Who cares how many Americans died. They signed up for it--and got paid for it. Now when something goes wrong they want us---the American taxpayer--to cry along with them. Well to heck with them!


Fight this war and win it, I say. And quit complaining. (You wouldn't believe how crappy work was for me today.)

Ed. Elect Obama and get back to me on that.

Here's the thing Megan: is there anything you are doing differently now that you realize that you made a collosal mistake about Iraq?

I mean, for you it's pretty much rhetorical. I don't think you've got blood on your hands, since I don't think anyone was paying attention to you five years ago. But assuming you like to get things right, how will you change your attitude and your analysis to make sure that doesn't happen again?

THe problem is that most of the big boys are continuing to approach foreign affairs the same way they did before the Iraq debacle. And that's if they are even willing to admit their error, which most of them aren't.

I LOVE people who make mistakes and learn from them. In my professional life I think I'd rather deal with someone who made mistakes and learned their lesson than someone who (at least in their own mind) never screwed up at all. But it's the learning from the mistake that makes you better, not just making it. In fact, making mistakes and continuing to approach problems the same way is the definition of insanity, right?

Hi guys, I'm just passing by because I've been looking for the most self-important, imperialistically condescending, willfully stupid post on all the internets and––

One test regarding the invasion of Iraq is to ask yourself the following: if you were an average Iraqi living in Iraq, would you have wanted the US to invade?

Even with all of the problems of the subsequent occupation, I've always felt that I would prefer hope for my children - hope other than that the eventual struggle between Uday and Qusay would end quickly. Hard as it has been, if I were living in Iraq, I'd have wanted to be liberated. And with things getting so much better since the Surge, the question has gotten easier to answer.

Nevermind.

blh-

I treat the war apologists with the courtesy that they deserve.

OK, I'll be nicer. Not that the warhawks actually deserve it (in fact, they deserve orange jumpsuits) but I don't like giving them any reason to suspect that I'm as irrational as they are.

Megan, here's the problem: You treat this all as one big intellectual exercise. You make a decision, you see what happens. You can choose to be a bit cavalier when the only thing at stake is your own money, your own reputation, your own future. Your life, choose your own risk/reward tradeoff. But we're talking about war here. The people who pay the price for mistakes are real, innocent people who will die. You don't get to say "Well, we tested the hypothesis, came up snake eyes, oops." The cost of that mistake was lives. A lot of lives. And not just the ones whom we killed. The people who died in the chaos that we unleashed are also our fault.

Now, there are two standard responses, both involving lives lost:
1) What about people killed by Saddam? The answer is that as deadly as his regime was, most of his murders were in the 1980's. The estimates for lives lost in the chaos are high six digits to million plus. That's six digits per year. Civilian casualty rates in the years prior to the war were well below that.

2) What about all the Americans who would have died if we had done nothing? The answer is that he was never a serious threat to us. No, we did not have absolute 100% certainty on that, but we had good reason to suspect there were no WMD. We had every reason to believe that Saddam could be deterred from attacking America (or from using proxies to attack America). (The fact that he was able to stay alive and in power in a place as messy as Iraq suggests rationality, in the sense of accurately spotting where his self interest lies, even if not in the sense of fair or reasonabl.) We had every reason to believe that if deterrence would fail it would only be in a situation where he had nothing to lose (i.e. loss of power is guaranteed, the very scenario the hawks were pushing to create)*. And we had every reason to believe that our leaders were lying their asses off.

No, none of this was 100%. If you want 100% certainty then you have to accept a staggering cost in blood and treasure--and somebody else's blood!--in order to achieve that certainty.

This is not an intellectual exercise. The course of action you supported led to guaranteed large body counts, all to forestall unlikely hypothetical body counts.

It was a morally reprehensible decision, and one undertaken in response to evidence that reasonable and intelligent people were able to see through. There is no excuse for that. Why should you expect anybody to take you seriously when you still fail to recognize your sin?

*Some might wonder why I'm invoking possible WMD attacks in an invasion if I just argued that the evidence on WMD was thin? The answer is that I'm showing how the case fails on multiple fronts, under multiple scenarios.

aschupanitz -

Wow, thanks! I never won anything before.

Seriously, what choice would you make? Would you prefer to live under Saddam, knowing that Uday and Qusay were waiting in the wings?

Why is this so unreasonable a criteria? When trying to decide if we've helped or hurt Iraqis, I try to put myself in their shoes and ask what choice I would have made, under the circumstances. How is that self-important, much less "imperialistically condescending"?

So, by your reasoning, the guy who says "if you jump off the roof, you will die when you hit the ground" is not the guy you should listen to.

You would listen to the guy who says, "No, you won't," just because you died bouncing off the side of the mountain before you actually hit the ground.

You whack jobs will grasp at anything to avoid taking responsibility for your dumb support of a stupid war.

In fairness, with the track record of your column, it is just another in a log line of idiotic statements.

But, hey, you are the tallest Neocon.
You can take that to the soup kitchen you write about so often.

Can I have my country's 4000 soldiers and $2 trillion back?

ottnott,

"I can haz my contreez sowjurz and 2 trillyiun dollrz bak?"

No.

Pussy.

Ed: The entire Bush administration was trying to directly tie Saddam to the 9/11 attacks?

Cite, please.

"Stop (virtually) speaking right now."

You have no idea how stupid that statement is, do you?


The calculus of people killed and the morality of a war is always difficult. In retrospect, Lincoln was wrong to accept the challenge of Civil War. Life is an 'inalienable right,' 350 thousand dead on the Union side was too high a price. Voting would have taken place in Delaware and Virginia in 1867; it would not have been the end of 'government by the people.' This war so far is reasonable. Saddam supported terrorist organizations and WMD. The Iraq War syndrome from Iraq I is likely the result of chemical agents used against us.

I just can't let this one go. I am astounded that you contend, by implication, that the Iraq war is MORE justified than the Civil War. First off, there is the fact that failing to prevent the South from seceding would amount to consigning millions of black Americans to decades more of slavery, perhaps even unto this very day. The evil of slavery is one that one that Americans were directly responsible for, as opposed to the depredations of the Baath party, where our responsibility, if any, is indirect at best.

Even putting aside our moral duty to free our enslaved fellow Americans, I would argue that your counter-factual is astoundingly naive. Perhaps in 1867 there would have been 2 countries, but if the precedent of states or regions seceding at will had been established, how long would it have been before the whole of what had been the United States would have been balkanized? How many different (and perhaps warring) countries would have split off from the US (and from the Confederacy)? Perhaps "government of the people" (read government of the WHITE people, in the Confederacy) would not have been in imminent danger, but the balkanization that I spoke of represents a clear danger to popular sovereignty, if not an immediate one.

Compare this with Iraq. Saddam was, at the time of the war contained. He did not in fact have a nuclear weapons program active at the time of the Iraq war. Now you can argue that keeping him contained and keeping him from acquiring nukes would have been increasingly expensive, but that expense would still be trivial compared to the money (and lives) we have already spent pursuing this war. So far as terrorists go, I would argue that whatever connections to Al-Qaeda existed before the war were of the alliance of convenience type, arising from having a common enemy (us). Saddam's goals and those of any Islamist terrorist group were sufficiently divergent to make anything more than an alliance of convenience unsustainable.

Patrick Henry asked "Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" I am astounded that your answer is "yes" (in the most literal sense possible) for our fellow Americans, even as you are asserting a very different answer for the people of Iraq.

Ann,

I repeat my earlier questions. How are you qualified to judge how Iraqis feel about the war?

And how do you respond to the ABC poll I pointed to earlier showing that 60%+ of Iraqis now disapprove of the war?

Tom

Greg, thanks for taking up my remarks, The Declaration of Independence got it right, the inalienable rights are 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.' For me those are rank ordered. Lincoln's actions and intransigence led to the deaths of 350,000 Union troops and similar number of his countrymen in the South. This is a violation of their first, most inalienable right according to the Declaration of Independence which goes on to say "That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it.." With regard to slavery, Saddam might and did put you literally in a meat grinder to your death if he or his representative so chose. Slavery? As Senator Obama's speech suggests the descendants of the slaves and even those who might marry them are still in slavery to shame. Rather than being thankful for those who gave their lives in an attempt to give them liberty they feel "God damn America" and celebrate 9/11. So Lincoln, though he idealized the task, did not give them liberty.

Thanks, Megan.
But you'd save a lot of energy by just saying you were as wrong and stupid as George W Bush.
Then hand over your writing chores to someone with some sense.
The blood of 4,000? It's all over you.
Go to hell.

"At the decision point where we decided to go into Iraq, there were two hypotheses we could have tested..."

1) who's the "we" in your assertion, and how and what did they decide anything? If the "we" is the executive who mocked the concept of congressional oversight or if it's members of congress, who hid behind the fig leaf of the aumf rather than exercise their proper constitutional responsibilities regarding the declaration of war or members of the national media who's notion of journalism is deeply influenced by rules of association, observation and analysis defined in adolescence - then I think it's not unfair to hold members of such an elite to some standard of accountability - even if constitutional standards no longer obtain in part because of their (in which I include "you") efforts. Myself, I wasn't part of your "we".

2) indeed, for many people the problem is precisely your framing - there were at least 3 hypotheses at the time we decided to go to war: the one you still can't seem to recognize is c) contain Saddam with a strong inspection regime. "Oh, no!" the hungry hawks who will never themselves bear arms pro