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Mistakes were made

25 Mar 2008 09:32 am

One of my commenters asks what I got wrong on the Iraq war. I've posted on this before, but I suppose it's worth saying again what I've learned from the experience.

1) I lost my normal scepticism about the government's ability to make things better. This is not a "I trusted Bush too much"; perhaps the Bush administration is really the reason that everything went wrong, but I am not in a position to evaluate that. I simply forgot to be skeptical that we could build a functioning nation in Iraq. The military performed beautifully--at its core task, which is killing people and seizing military targets. I therefore assumed that we would also be able to build a functioning government and economy. This can be done by people with a lot of tanks and high explosives, but not in any way that I would approve of.

2) I paid too little attention to how the Iraqis would feel. Despite my core belief that I live in the best country in the entire world, I'm basically a cosmopolitan. I should have realized that the Iraqis would find it humiliating to be conquered by an outside power, even one that was (as we are) one of the best-meaning occupiers in human history.

3) I overestimated my ability to interpret Saddam's behavior. I genuinely believed that he had WMD--the main reason I favored invasion--because he was acting exactly like I would if I'd had WMD. I failed to adequately consider that not being a brutal dictator in a chronically unstable region, I probably had limited insight into his thought process.

4) I forgot that institutions matter. The experience of Eastern Europe after the fall of the Iron Curtain revolutionized our thinking about markets. We used to think that they were the natural occupant of any space left free by the government. Now it turns out that they are supported by a dense network of custom and law that is largely invisible to us for the same reason that you can't tell someone how to ride a bike. I knew this, or should have--yet I expected that once we smashed Saddam, democracy and freer markets would naturally fill the vacuum.

5) I failed to consider who would come after Saddam. The corollary to that is that I didn't look hard enough at the possible succession. I imagine that, like the US government, I thought that the exiles could go back and take over; I had more excuse than they did, but not that much. Most exiles aren't De Gaulle.

6) I paid too much attention to the French. While in general, "Whatever France is doing, don't do that" is very good policy advice, it is not actually true that everything the French oppose is therefore a good idea.

7) I fell prey to the notion that we had to do something about Islamic terrorism. This was something. In retrospect, there were many better somethings to do. For example, we could have invaded France.

I'm sure there were other errors I made, but those are the ones that I can identify five years later.

The biggest thing I've learned is simple humility. Almost any set of facts can tell two stories; I will never again be so sure that my story is right.

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Comments (53)

Skipping for a moment how painfully simple it was to get Iraq right (most especially for any true libertarian (I am not one)), #6 The French. Really? That was actually one of your reasons to support Dick Cheney's decision to spend zillions of Government dollars and human lives to initiate a war of choice? The French? Really? I'd expect that from some Bill O'Reilly viewer, but not from an Atlantic employee.


"The biggest thing I've learned is simple humility. Almost any set of facts can tell two stories; I will never again be so sure that my story is right."


Would this apply to your views about vaccination?

that was a joke, Ed.

D, the theory that vaccination prevents diseases that kill people is not prospective; it has been tested, over and over. The theory that vaccination causes autism is also not prospective; it has been tested and found wanting. It is possible that a link will someday be found, but as of now, there is no evidence of one, and plenty of evidence against, so no, I do not believe that you have the right to sacrifice a proven method of saving lives in order to satisfy a wild speculation.

Nor do the people telling me that they refuse to vaccinate their children display an analytic frame of mind that causes me to question my conclusion; their argument boils down to a) correlation=causation and b) there is a giant conspiracy. Their criticisms of vaccine studies are occasionally valid, but since they ignore much more glaring methodological flaws in the evidence they accept, it doesn't make me more sanguine about their opinion.

Things I got right about the Iraq War:

1. I paid attention. With a dishonest and secretive administration and a servile, sheep-like press selling a war based on ever-shifting reasoning, an unprovoked Iraq invasion seemed like a bad idea. When Colin Powell's widely praised testimony was debunked in near real time (http://www.slacktivist.blogspot.com/2003_02_02_slacktivist_archive.html#90292593), that removed virtually all doubt.

2. I thought for myself. Instead of hitching my wagon to any particular worldview or political side, I compared weapons inspectors matter of fact analyses with the Bush Administration's wildly sensational, vague, and hard evidence free statements. I questioned the aluminum tubes and Mohammed Atta in Prague theories.

3. I watched the Daily Show. On the eve of the war, they were making jokes about how Saddam Hussein was going to have to construct WMD, and then destroy them, all within 48 hours, to prevent Bush from invading. Also, I read The Onion. If only all sources of news were as reliable. Or reliably funny.

4. I took invading another country seriously. I'm not enlisted in the armed forces, but I'd rather not send anybody into a war unless there is a clear and present danger to the United States.

It wasn't very hard, even with the France thing.

Would staunch opposition at the time from any end of the blogospher have mattered? I think the quote for that time would have been "The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."

"that was a joke, Ed"

Ha ha. Good one! Since that was an actual reason of many war supporters (not just Bill O'Reilly), I'm sure the families of killed or wounded are laughing heartily.

Does it bother you that I couldn't tell that it was a joke?

Or, you were right, became impatient because of the amount of time needed to stabilize things, and crumbled under the withering scorn of your Manhattan cronies.

"that was a joke, Ed."

Please, stop "joking" about this war. There is nothing funny about it. Taking a light-hearted attitude toward this war is one of the reasons we're in it--people saw it as a big game to play to show the world how tough we are. Stop making unfunny jokes about it.

Nice blog entry, Megan.

Are comments being purged?

There's some sort of problem with the comments system. We're working on a fix. --ed

Are you collecting for some sort of charity, ed?

"Are you collecting for some sort of charity, ed?"

No. (And what does that mean?)

But I did notice a couple of comments disappear. Wha'happened?

Megan,

Thank you for a personal reply.

I am not advocating for any particular theory about vaccinations causing illness nor do I believe the science is there to raise doubts about vaccinations, at this time, and "as far as I know".

I am making a case to permit parents of children to choose (however right or wrong we might think those choices are) even if there is a significant risk to the child or others. That risk can be managed and controlled just like any other risks.

I do take exception to your advocacy for withholding public services from those who do not vaccinate or other heavy handed measures.

A bit of respect for the freedom and tolerance of the choice of others with a healthy dose of prudent risk management measures - even if there is a price to be paid for all - is something I strongly believe in.

The reason why I believe in this: Because I am 100% certain that I (nor anyone) do not have all the right answers, all the time.

The right to refuse medical treatment should be an absolute right. That include the right to refuse a vaccination for whatever reason (however wrong we might feel it is).

Public health authorities do have the option of quarantining persons known to be a carrier of a communicable disease who are non-compliant with risk management measures.

Fair enough.


Not that it should matter, but I vaccinated all my kids after having studied the literature. I am pretty sure I made the right decision, but I would not impose that decision on others.

I accidentally deleted them while trying to get rid of duplicates. You may have noticed that the comments system is kind of slow.

"I genuinely believed that he had WMD--the main reason I favored invasion--because he was acting exactly like I would if I'd had WMD."

Hahaha.

Where your choices affect you, I believe 100% in your right to choose for your children; I don't, for example, want to force home schoolers to teach evolution.

The problem is that vaccination doesn't just affect you, or your children. Leaving your children unvaccinated puts other people at risk. Given the terrible effects that these diseases used to have, I don't think you have a right to make that decision, any more than you have a right to let the garbage collect in your back yard, or dump your sewage into the creek.

Wow, Megan, I wasn't reading you back in 2003 so I had no idea, but if you really believed all of that stuff, you loose like all credibility with me. It always floors me how so many supposedly educated people with these prestigious degrees fell for that shit just as readily as did the average American good ole boy. I guess being successful in America lends to itself a certain amount of hubris?

I guess I have to give some credit for you coming around eventually, though. Some people are still in denial.

"I should have realized that the Iraqis would find it humiliating to be conquered by an outside power, even one that was (as we are) one of the best-meaning occupiers in human history."

There is a difference between historically-not-that-bad occupier and the one that acts as a disinterested agent, compelled only by moral imperatives.
True libertarian knows not only that USA is a nation-state like any other (following its own interests), but that USA should not be anything else but a nation-state.
Thinking otherwise is a dangerous delusion, guaranteed to produce rivers of blood.

These are some of the most embarrassing "analytical errors" a literate person could possibly make. In fact, I'm amazed literacy doesn't preclude them.

The fact that you not only haven't dropped out of the commentary game, but actually go so far as to *make jokes* about the lives you helped end (more than a million!) is simply _stunning_.

One of the most common mistakes made is that people believe you can have a war without mistakes, one of the best quotes for war is "no battleplan survives the first shot".

One of the major objectives in any war is to control the chaos, knowing full well it will not be controlled completely. I believe this war has been handled well, which means that mistakes have been made, if you believe it has been handled badly, it means mistakes have been made. War is not for the faint of heart.

We used to think that they were the natural occupant of any space left free by the government.

This is jarring. Who is the "we" you're talking about here, seriously? If you're going to say that the mainstream of economomists believe (or believed) this, then I am really going to have to stop taking seriously anything that mainstream economists say.

That's an excellent point, Blaine. And that's primary reason why I (correctly) opposed the Iraq Invasion: lots of mistakes can and will happen, we'd better be more than certain that there is a clear and present danger to the country and its people. War is not for the faint of heart. Or the faint of mind, for that matter.

we could have invaded France.

Well the last time we came semi roaring through Brittany I bet they were glad to see us, not to mention Pareee! Back to their house! Megan, I bet you make Country Joe and the Fish proud.

Possibly, invading Iraq was a mistake -- but we won't know that for another decade or two, unfortunately. Surely, it's been a lot harder than the Bushies promised, and they look like total fools now. But ask yourself this: if they had understood how hard it would be, do you think they would have not invaded? I don't think so.

I'm not defending the invasion, but I am saying the collective rush to judgment is just too early. We won't know for a good while if our troops have been able to effect permanent change. So hang on.

This matters to me: I trust the military leadership, esp. Petraeus and Odierno. I also trust the military on the ground. I don't hear from them that they think they are failing. I hear that from Congress a lot -- but Congress is the least trusted public institution in America today, so why should I listen to them? The press and the talking heads aren't much better -- generally biased and uninformed. As long as the war effort has support of the military, I'm at least hopeful. They don't want to lose a war, but they're not particularly eager to get killed or maimed or get PTSDeed for no good cause. Listen to them. When they begin to turn, it's time to give up all hope. But we are not there yet, not by a long shot.

But the other thing is this. This war originated in Bush's failure to pull the UN and the Security Council along in enforcing their own resolutions. The debate we need to have, as a consequence, is to what extent "dignity" requires not just talking to unspeakable terrorists but, more importantly, kowtowing to the international bureucracy once again.

This is central to me, as an American. In whom do trust? The UN mafia or my own democratically elected political yahoos, when I'm in a crisis some time in the future?

It's a tough choice, but I go with the yahoos over the mafiosi. I like independence, and will not give it up lightly.

#6 and 7 are Classic. Ever consider doing Comedy?

Ed,
Just because you didn't get the joke doesn't mean it wasn't funny. And people really need to stop saying "We shouldn't joke about that". Next it will be "We shouldn't talk about that because it might hurt someones feelings" Get thicker skin

I should have realized that the Iraqis would find it humiliating to be conquered by an outside power, even one that was (as we are) one of the best-meaning occupiers in human history.

But good intentions are worthless to the people of Iraq, and frankly to anyone at the receiving end of a given policy. Good intentions mean squat. Hell, Hitler had good intentions -- he thought it was in the best interest of Germany to rid itself of Jews (no, I'm not comparing Bush to Hitler or the U.S. to Nazi Germany -- just pointing out that the most awful acts usually have "good" intentions behind them).

I think it was Yglesias that said a while back that no one likes being bombed, even if it is supposedly for their own good. It's hard to believe that it's taking our country so long to realize that.

"It always floors me how so many supposedly educated people with these prestigious degrees fell for that shit just as readily as did the average American good ole boy"

It shouldn't. My experience has been that people with "prestigious degrees" tend to have extremely specialized knowledge, and outside that specialty have about as much knowledge about a given subject as your cat does. There are also a number of "prestigious degrees" (one in particular, held by many politicians and senior government officials) a person can obtain and still be innumerate and bereft of even the most basic scientific knowledge.

Thanks for this post, it's interesting and useful information, even if most of the commenters are responding badly.

I think it's more interesting to hear "I was wrong because..." from people who supported the war, than "I was right because..." from people who opposed it, mostly for the reasons you cited in the previous post.

In my case, it was #3 that got me. Before that I was a mild opponent of the war.

I accepted the evidence that the Iraqis were interested in nuclear weapons and over-estimated how close they were to having them. Saddam's actions and attitudes fooled me. Given that Pakistan, India and North Korea are all recent additions to the nuclear club the idea that Iraq was close was not implausible.

Then we have a dictator who had a history of using poison gas on civilians. I was scared and was willing to accept that options to deal with this crisis were limited.

I am still not sure that I'd have made a different choice with the information we had *at the time* even though I know for sure that the invasion was wrong in retrospect.

I should have realized that the Iraqis would find it humiliating to be conquered by an outside power, even one that was (as we are) one of the best-meaning occupiers in human history.

I don't see much evidence of this being a problem. What the US didn't forsee was:
- that Saddam, lacking WMDs and knowing that there would be no hope of withstanding a US attack, would prepare to lose the war and conduct guerilla operations. He and his cronies prepared money and weapons caches and set up networks to organize a Sunni resistance. That led to Al Qaeda having time to start their terror campaign.
- standing down the Iraqi army would result in cadres for the Sunni resistance. I think the decision to disband the army was a necessary step in pacification of the country, but the rank and file troops should have been kept on in some kind of capacity to keep them employed. Saddam's army had too much blood on its hands.
- failure to seal the border with Iran has let them conduct a war by proxy against us.
- we should have had a maximum effort to get Iraqi oil flowing and kept world prices down. Way down.

Megan-

Because I like you, and because I think you've made an honest attempt w/ your list above, (okay, and because I like tall women & freckles, too) I'm going to try to explain why -- without being too obnoxious -- many people get so pissed when they read a list such as yours.

1) "I lost my normal scepticism about the government's ability to make things better." This is standard libertarian hooey. A competent gov't makes a lot of things better, and you know it. But this wasn't just some social program or natural disaster cleanup -- it was an attempt to create democracy by force, ignoring all the lessons of such past efforts, ignoring the history of the region, and ignoring the knowledge & expertise of military personnel, historians, and diplomats who one would have reason to expect would know what they were talking about.

2) "I paid too little attention to how the Iraqis would feel." No comment necessary, except I'd say that to describe the US as "one of the best-meaning occupiers in human history" is a bit historically naive. I won't rehash Vietnam or the Philippines here. I will say however that occupiers have their own agendas, and these agendas rarely match those of the occupied.

3) "I overestimated my ability to interpret Saddam's behavior." In order to believe that Saddam had WMD, one had to mock the difficult and dangerous long-term work of the UN -- a common pastime of the right.

4) "I forgot that institutions matter." Fair enough. You mention Eastern Europe, and I'd just note that one person with A LOT of experience with democracy building in EE was Soros. I'm sure you remember how his & Open Society's suggestions were received. (ps: Free markets are great, but they're a result of democracy, not its source.)

5) "I failed to consider who would come after Saddam." Ok, this is pretty lame, but you're a columnist, not a war-planner. Pass.

6) "I paid too much attention to the French." I get it that you mean this as a joke. I don't think it's funny, though, because EVERY DAY I heard dimwits with power positing this as an *actual* rationale -- Rumsfeld, Perle, etc. And we'll probably hear it again next time. As one who's spent a lot of time in Europe & Asia, the overwhelming ignorance that Americans display re the rest of the world - and the way this ignorance is fanned nonstop by conservatives - is a source of great sadness and worry. I'll leave it at that, except to say that when our leaders vilify our longest-standing allies in a time of war, it should cause one to pause & consider.

7) "I fell prey to the notion that we had to do something about Islamic terrorism." Fair enough, though of course, there were a lot better targets than the secular Iraq, and those who pointed that out were shouted down and lied to (to this day) by among others, Dick Cheney & GWB.

Lastly, on the subject of being "right" or "wrong". Invading another country isn't just some other topic where sometimes we're right and, "oops, my bad" if I'm wrong. I think a lot of the lib-warhawk quasi-mea-culpas of the past couple weeks have had that tenor. War involves massive human and $$ costs and massive unintended consequences. Always has, always will. And the attitude 5 years ago among many who advocated the war was IMHO extremely cavalier, especially among those who would bear no cost, who's only investment was ego gratification, proof of their genius, and the acting out of their juvenile toy soldier revenge fantasies.

ps: it is appalling to see the same mistaken hacks being given airtime and being taken seriously. The worst and most deceitful of them should be vilified or at least shunned, because I guarantee you, next time they'll be out in front again, and hundreds of thousands more people will pay for their ignorance.

Personally, all or at least most of the anger I feel toward those who got it wrong (and I don't mean you necessarily) is that in all the semi explanations that have come w/ the 5-yr anniversary I don't see much that reason for confidence that those who were wrong learned *anything*, or that next time will be any different.

Anyway, see: That wasn't that obnoxious.

rgds.

Really, the only excuse for supporting the Iraq war is a poor understanding of history. If you understood history, you'd have known that the American government aided and abetted Saddam in gassing his own civilians, Egypt and Saudi Arabia's government structures and resultant instability are the direct result of US support to their regimes, and the Taliban have owe their existence to US support during the Soviet invasion. Oh, not to mention the years of antagonizing the USSR, causing them to throw their support behind pan-Arabism, creating figures like Yasser Arafat and organizations like the PLO. Extremist Islam is a problem, but the solution isn't to go filling the pockets of more and more soon-to-be dictators, but rather to cut off all support for "allies" and against "enemies" and return to the founding fathers' vision of American foreign policy: no foreign policy.

I'm not defending the invasion, but I am saying the collective rush to judgment is just too early. We won't know for a good while if our troops have been able to effect permanent change. So hang on.

It's been five years. If that's not long enough for the reflective equilibrium to make a considered analysis of success or failure, then any post hoc analysis is a joke as a check on policy. If we have to wait ten or twenty years because we can judge an administration's decision to go to war and its efficacy, then no administration need ever fear judgement since they'll be long gone.

I mean, really? Five years isn't long enough to look at what's happened, and what's likely to happen now that we have five years direct experience in the situation?

This matters to me: I trust the military leadership, esp. Petraeus and Odierno. I also trust the military on the ground. I don't hear from them that they think they are failing.

It is at all plausible to you that an occupying army would publicly announce that it is failing in its mission and should be withdrawn?

This war originated in Bush's failure to pull the UN and the Security Council along in enforcing their own resolutions.

This war originated in the machinations of a neocon cabal to flex American muscle and restart the age of American empire. Everything else was just maneuvering to accomplish that.

I never believed anything that was being said about this war from day one but I am staggered at the bitterness and pomposity of some of these comments.

Thanks Megan for explaining why you supported the war. This is one of the most important things to understand about the leadup to the war, just how did so many thoughtful people get scooped up in this. Because I never did--looking back it is for a whole variety of reasons--I have always had difficulty understanding why.

Here is a tip for you smug people. Most of the things that are being said about Iran now are equally reality-challenged. If any of you people think that Ahmadinejad is an evil and dangerous man, or that Iran represents the greatest threat to Nuclear proliferation now, or that Iran is responsible for the Iraqi insurgency, or that Iran represents an existential threat to Israel, then you are horrible hypocrites because you are being herded into the same trap (again). The only reason, and I repeat, only reason we haven't made this situation vastly worse is because some adults understood that the military are ridiculously over-stretched and have (just) managed to keep the crazies in their box.

The only realistic way to get a straight perspective on this is to read the kind of people that appear on antiwar.com, people like Gareth Porter, Scott Ritter and Gordon Prather.

Let's focus on stopping the next one, and that means listening to people explain why we got the last one wrong.

Plenty of interesting comments, actually (and less insulting ones that I'd have expected given the topic), but also many unsupportable assertions being made, particularly as asides. E.g., sadk's parenthetical "Free markets are great, but they're a result of democracy, not its source": Tuscan and Northern Italian cities thrived on free markets around the 12th to 16th centuries (in the 16th century, foreign armies started ravaging Italy, eventually crushing its economies), but it's ridiculous to call them democracies -- they were, at best, republics (in most cases a single man or family eventually took power, got a noble title, and ended the republic; but at least in some cases the oligarchies of mercantile origins managed to preserve or restore the republic at least until the military turmoil started in earnest).

And today, many markets are freer in China (definitely not a democracy) than in India (definitely a democracy). So I think the "Free markets are great, but they're a result of democracy, not its source" fallacy ought to be put to rest once and for all...

Alex

Megan,

Great post and I shared most of your logic pre-war [except for the France thing]. But I find myself in a very different place than most of you folks. I cannot yet admit - concede that the war was wrong - I need to know what would have happened had it not happened and I cannot answer that - so if it is wrong - what is it wrong compared to - what would we be dealing with today if we had not gone into Iraq?

I am just not smart enough to know how things would have played out - and not willing to just assume they could not have been worse.

I find it even more troubling that many who are confident in the "wrongness" of the war tend to get a bit hyberbolic - Bush and Cheney get labeled ware criminals or worse.

I am reminded of the following definitions....

OPTOMIST: Some one who believes we live in the best of all possible worlds...

PESSIMIST: Some one who is afraid he may be right....

Time and history will judge - I can't - not yet...

Bruce

Megan, you are very brave!

I'm not sure what you expected from the our involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan. Here was my expectations:

* Provide price stability via a military presence that protected vital shipping lanes and critical infrastructure. The main goal was probably to protect the oil. We don't care who it gets sold to, so long as the market is open. As a side effect, we're also protecting other forms of shipped goods as well, both to us, to the EU, and to the Middle East.

* Influence in the Middle East to protect American interests. Apparently we're being pretty evenhanded about using our influence, too, since there is no argument about us being there at the international level any more.

* Place a damper on the ambitions of the Syrians and Iranians via nearby US military and spies, which in turn should help keep the rest of the Middle East stable. This was especially critical a few years ago as different long-time leaders were passing away in the region.

* Be able to quickly react to any problems with regards to Israel.

I didn't expect the US government to do much more than try and stabilize Iraq and Afghanistan. We've actually done more over there than I expected, but I think a lot of it was just to keep the unrest down to manageable levels.

Whether Iraq and Afghanistan flourish or stagnate is not a US concern, really. We're willing to let their people use this opportunity to better themselves, but it is up to them to do it for the most part.

I think it's unlikely we will leave until either the Middle East is stable or we have no more compelling economic or political interest in the area. Lots of people want us to leave - it was a mistake, etc - but so long as there's a compelling American interest in the region, I think Congress will continue to support it with their votes, even as they speak out against it. Certainly seems that way from their votes!

Bruce -

Big Hint: the war was wrong because we attacked the wrong country. Iraq had nothing to do w/ 911. Geez...how hard is this to figure out?

Mark,

it is hard to figure out - that is exactly my point - and I think Megan's - though she can speak for herself...

I never connected irag to 9/11 - that was not part of my
support...

And I will - in a calm voice - ask again...

How do you know things would be "better" had we not attacked Iraq?

I cannot be certain they would be - or would not be...

bruce

I cannot help but think of this comment in the Spectator:

"Mr Powell was on less certain ground when he said: ‘Yes, of course it would have been better to have gone in with more troops, to have been better prepared to hold the streets and all the rest of it. But no one was urging us to do that at the time.’

In fact, this is precisely what Colin Powell, the then US secretary of state, was urging upon the White House: a rapid destruction of Saddam’s dictatorship, followed by a huge influx of troops to bring interim stability to the liberated country, lay the basis for civil order, secure basic infrastructure, and nip uprisings in the bud. Then, and only then, would Iraq be left to its own democratic devices. Sadly, this detailed blueprint was ignored in favour of the Pentagon’s combination of ‘shock-and-awe’ tactics and a naive belief that Jeffersonian democracy would spring fully-formed from the sands of Iraq as soon as Saddam had gone."

http://www.spectator.co.uk/the-magazine/the-week/564236/no-end-of-a-lesson.thtml


I am inclined to agree.

The thing that made me nervous at the time was the fact that we appeared to be overthrowing one government, without having a replacement government ready to install.

Megan Megan how flawed can you be in your
accessment of unvaccinated children. Why does not
Megan die in Iraq, since she so bothered about
the war. If she die there, no one will mourn for
her. She just be a number. Will do the world good.

YOU STOLE MY LIST :-) !!!!

Reading through it felt like: "Oh my god how stupid I was, and this one also, this I don't even wanna remember, ...". You made me laugh with the "France joke" :-), and after reading whole post (and all the comments so far !) I can only recommend you for your bravery in "coming clean". Learning from past mistakes in public is not the most comforting thing to do (just look at the comments), but I agree it's the best way.

You learn from your mistakes and move on ...

Cheers from Croatia, and keep on doing a good work ;-)

I forgot that institutions matter.

This is the real lesson. As far as the rest, none of the other reasons are good enough for failure (although many are quite reasonable for not going to war in the first place). Nations have attempted to conquer other nations before, even ones that didn't like the idea or would feel humiliated at occupation, and succeeded.

Apparently we assumed the Iraqis could mostly take care of themselves, with some transitionary help, but that wasn't the case. And, frankly, we didn't cause enough death to inspire fear. The Japanese were humiliated by the US, but they were also killed by the thousands.

Upon this a question arises: whether it be better to be loved than feared or feared than loved? It may be answered that one should wish to be both, but, because it is difficult to unite them in one person, is much safer to be feared than loved, when, of the two, either must be dispensed with. Because this is to be asserted in general of men, that they are ungrateful, fickle, false, cowardly, covetous, and as long as you succeed they are yours entirely; they will offer you their blood, property, life and children, as is said above, when the need is far distant; but when it approaches they turn against you. And that prince who, relying entirely on their promises, has neglected other precautions, is ruined; because friendships that are obtained by payments, and not by greatness or nobility of mind, may indeed be earned, but they are not secured, and in time of need cannot be relied upon; and men have less scruple in offending one who is beloved than one who is feared, for love is preserved by the link of obligation which, owing to the baseness of men, is broken at every opportunity for their advantage; but fear preserves you by a dread of punishment which never fails.

Nevertheless a prince ought to inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred; because he can endure very well being feared whilst he is not hated, which will always be as long as he abstains from the property of his citizens and subjects and from their women. But when it is necessary for him to proceed against the life of someone, he must do it on proper justification and for manifest cause, but above all things he must keep his hands off the property of others, because men more quickly forget the death of their father than the loss of their patrimony. Besides, pretexts for taking away the property are never wanting; for he who has once begun to live by robbery will always find pretexts for seizing what belongs to others; but reasons for taking life, on the contrary, are more difficult to find and sooner lapse. -Nicolo Machiavelli

Since we didn't really want to cause as much death as necessary to cause the various factions to fear us, we shouldn't have gone to war in the first place. That's the lesson I learned from it.

Hey, Nelson:

Have you ever heard of the Nuremberg Trials?

That set of legal procedures actually somewhat supercedes the precedent set some five hundred years before by Niccolo Machiavelli.

You might not be aware that we hung a rather impressive number of Nazis who had read their Machiavelli. And those Nazis had taken him to heart! (And it hadn't worked, truthfully, which is one of the many reasons why they were put on trial by us.)

So before you dredge up interesting (if totally irrelevant) historical precedents which might result in encouraging citizens of this Republic to endorse violations of international law (which we largely wrote from 1945-50), perhaps you might think twice.

Thanks ever so much.

jn - Hell, Hitler had good intentions

Not towards Jews, though. I agree with your point, but not the analogy.

sadk - I won't rehash Vietnam or the Philippines here.

Why not compare the US in the Philippines to the Japanese or Spain and tell me how the US came in third?

mark - Agreed, Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11 and it was deceptive of the admin to lead people to that belief (though even they denied the link at the time.) However Iraq was shooting at our planes patrolling the no-fly zone, had massacred Kurds, invaded kuwait, supported the PLO, etc. and the coalition imposing sanctions was becomming less effective and would not hold forever. It would do well for other nations to remember that deliberate mass murder, such as Saddam carried out, has consequences.

I opposed the Iraq war when it started and I think it underestimated the task of building democracy. But any decision or indecision would have had some negative consequences associated with it.

p.s. Great post Megan. Thanks!

Us is having WMA that is weapon of mass annihilation
But nowadays alot of people like unabomber have knokledge enabled weapon of mass destruction. at least a few people destruction.Iraq episode makes Bush-Blair doubles partner a laughing stock muddle headed personalities.

US is having WMA that is weapon of mass annihilation
But nowadays alot of people like unabomber have knokledge enabled weapon of mass destruction. at least a few people destruction.Iraq episode makes Bush-Blair doubles partner a laughing stock muddle headed personalities.

stickler-

The Germans were very effective at imposing their institutions on their conquered lands. We also were effective at imposing our institutions on Germany and Japan. Both sides had to inspire fear in their conquered territories' people to do so. You can claim that we didn't actually bomb thousands of civilians and we actually dropped flowers on them instead, if you want to, but you'd be wrong.

If you want a different historical account, look to Rome. They were effective at spreading the institutions of civilization. They couldn't have done it without the will and ability to kill whoever resisted.

Besides, reread what I wrote. I'm not saying "what we should have done" but rather "this is the cost, we don't (shouldn't) want to pay the cost, therefore we shouldn't go to war to begin with."

If the goal were really to find out the extent of their WMD programs without occupying the country, a few small scale covert ops would have sufficed.

All that being said, our glimmer of hope is that the extremists are crossing the threshold from fear into hatred. Once they are hated more than feared, we'll have more luck getting the normal Iraqis to oppose them. So, we can still pull this out successfully, as long as we have effective decision makers on the ground to exploit the situation and the political will to support them.

1) I lost my normal scepticism about the government's ability to make things better.

Why?

2) I paid too little attention to how the Iraqis would feel.

4) I forgot that institutions matter.

5) I failed to consider who would come after Saddam.

I guess it's not fair to give you too hard a time about this because it was such a common mistake, but still, don't you think that these are very obvious issues? I mean, you'll note that some people were right about the war in advance, even if you don't like them personally, and even if they weren't correct in every single detail, I do seem to remember fears about an insurgency in advance.

So . . . the DOE gave us the scoop on those aluminum tubes. Laura Mylroie was never the least bit credible. As others have pointed out, the Cheney/Bush administration had already, not least prominently by demoting counterterrorism to focus on "missile defense," provided ample evidence of its ignorance and fecklessnes, if not its nature as perhaps extremist coup cabal(see "The Great Unraveling") - and there were PLENTY of well and less well educated authorities saying so, in no uncertain terms.

Anyone who can, without rage, listen to the quibbling half-measured, self-serving "mea culpas" of "experts" who "got it wrong," has never listened to the personal tale of a shocked and awed Iraqi.

Tell me again, now, why "we" think it's a good idea to promote democracy? Because we'll benefit from resulting "free markets?" - or is it because "Democratic regimes don't threaten their neighbors?" Ah, they don't threaten their neighbors, ergo their and their neighbors' oligarchies can practice "free markethood."

Say wha?

As to the mea culpa, so far, they're all a steaming crock.

Feel free to edit this one:

"I, as a promoter of illegal, murderous aggression against another country, was wrong/self-interestedly promoting talking-points I knew to be erroneous propaganda.

Because I did this, Nicholas Berg was beheaded - on You Tube - by a man my heros in the administration needed as part of the PR campaign, and therefore protected from the US military.

I didn't care, and still don't care to acknowledge my complicity in the murder, rape, torture, and mutilation of everyday Iraqi citizens. My hands are double-bloody, and I should be under gag-order against any kind of public/commentor/analyst speech.

Because I am truly sorry, I will devote the rest of my life in the impossible pursuit of making amends for my part in the unprovoked mayhem I have helped wreak on the Iraqis.

I will start by speaking out on any and every occasion against the consolidation of media, and, e.g. the banishment of the Fairness Doctrine.

I will champion, in every forum available, the incarceration/extradition of GWBush, Donald Rumsfeld, Douglas Feith, Michael Ledeen, Stephen Cambone, David Addington, John Yoo, Alberto Gonzales, Karl Rove, Scooter Libby, Judith Miller, Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, Jay Garner, Bill Frist, Tom Delay, Dennis Hastert, Condoleeza Rice, Colin Powell, and all others then in positions of power in government who pimped the illegal attack on Iraq.

I will not rest until I see them and their accomplices sitting in the Haque, their personal, recently expanded, fortunes turned over to Iraqi reparation, and refugee relief.

I will, furthermore, work to put BlackWater, Inc., and all organizations that pose similar deadly affront to Democratic principles, out of business, and forever interdicted by U.S. Law."

"As you can now see, I truly am sorry, and mean to do something about it."

Now there's a non-obnoxious "mea culpa."

Great post, Megan.

Of your rationales there are two, I think, that are still active
questions.

There's still this question of what actually is the U.S. government's
ability to make things better. It's clear the U.S. government's
constructive power to make Iraq a better place is far less than
most, including I would assume everyone on the left, should find
reasonable. That's far from saying that it doesn't have any power
at all.

Second, there's still this issue of WMD. I imagine most people
think that is dead, done, and buried. But in the larger sense,
the real issue hasn't been touched.

We've lost an opportunity. Our basic problem is still the same.
How are we going to handle nuclear weapons and the threat of nuclear
weapons? Nuclear bombs are going to go off in the future. Although
we can't completely prevent it, how do we make such events less likely?

The vast majority of states are smaller or have less military power
than Iraq did. The invasion of Iraq could have served as a
constructive model for how we should act toward small states that
act like they have, or are getting, nuclear weapons, or that won't
allow us to verify that they don't have such. It shouldn't really
have mattered whether Saddam actually had nuclear weapons or not.
Acting like he did should be enough in itself to justify an invasion.

I'm sure that my words are unacceptably aggressive to most people.

But I can guarantee, that once that first bomb goes off, this
proposal is going to seem positively mild.

You're right Megan. It our potty mouths that kill Iraqis and American soldiers. Every time I drop an F-bomb, an Iraqi dies.

Go to hell, Megan.

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