[Jon Henke]
Mistakes happen, particularly in war, but this was not a mistake. It was policy. Or the lack of policy.
At the age of 19, Murat Kurnaz vanished into America's shadow prison system in the war on terror. He was from Germany, traveling in Pakistan, and was picked up three months after 9/11. But there seemed to be ample evidence that Kurnaz was an innocent man with no connection to terrorism. The FBI thought so, U.S. intelligence thought so, and German intelligence agreed. But once he was picked up, Kurnaz found himself in a prison system that required no evidence and answered to no one. [...] [Kurnaz' lawyer, Baher Azmy] dug into the case and found that the military seemed to have invented some of the charges. Military prosecutors said one of Kurnaz’s friends was a suicide bomber, but the friend turned up alive and well in Germany. [...] But far worse than the false charges was the secret government file that Azmy uncovered.Six months after Kurnaz reached Guantanamo, U.S. military intelligence had written, "criminal investigation task force has no definite link [or] evidence of detainee having an association with al Qaeda or making any specific threat toward the U.S."
At the same time, German intelligence agents wrote their government, saying, "USA considers Murat Kurnaz’s innocence to be proven. He is to be released in approximately six to eight weeks." But Azmy says Kurnaz was kept at Guantanamo Bay for three and a half years after this memo was written in 2002.
They kept him, Kurnaz says, by inventing new charges. In a makeshift courthouse, Kurnaz claims that a military judge charged that Kurnaz had been picked up near Osama bin Laden's hideout in Afghanistan while fighting for the Taliban. Ironic, since it was the U.S. that flew him to Afghanistan to begin with.
If charges won't be filed against him, when will charges be filed against the person or people who caused or allowed this to occur? As Alex Knapp writes, this was "a citizen of one of our most valued allies [who] was tortured, denied counsel for three years, and kept in inhumane conditions, this despite the fact that shortly after he was detained his innocence was already determined. Not that it would have been justified to treat a guilty man this way, either. Due process is one of the cornerstones of America’s founding principles — one that is degrading every year."
He had damn well better get a big pot of money.
He had damn well better get a big pot of money.
Problems I have with this post:
a) The source is CBS--can any one say Dan Rather.
b) The US of A does not do these things.
c) When the USA does do these things it's to protect people who don't know they're being protected--and therefore they should shut up.
d) Megan is--allegedly--in Puerto Rico, even though methinks she was suspended.
e) Megan would never, ever question out leaders in the WOT.
Although Knapp is technically right about Kurnaz being a citizen of an allied country, he is actually a Turkish citizen. By German law, you're not a German citizen by birth in Germany, but instead by swearing allegiance to the German state once reaching the appropriate age (new law). By the old standard, German citizenship is only available to maternal blood relations.
The US concept of citizenship is unique.
Still, for all his claims of suffering, I'm not so sure I put too much faith in Kurnaz as the indicting figure against Guantanamo. For one, the German government refused to "repatriate" him to German soil after being told he was held at GTMO. They said, he's Turkish and not German -- while the German government at the same time lamented the fact that the USA did not immediately close the Guantanamo prison camp.
Hypocrisy and Germany are but a bard's distance from one another...
Good post, Jon.
::Devil's Advocate::
Collateral damage?
Your crocodile tears are noted, Megan-sub.
I love the gutless bloodlust of the others on display here. I do hope none of their families become 'colateral damage' quite soon.
Oooh, "gutless bloodlust." Nice. Will this be the new "chickenhawk"?
America is the worst nation on the face of the planet, and this man who was wrongly detained and mistreated is proof of that. Any country that had a clue what it was doing would've just put this guy through a woodchipper and denied it had ever heard of him, but This Administration's incompetence is once again on display as it lets another go knowing they'll be annointed cause celebre among the gutless handwringer bunch who see no evil on this planet not stamped "Made in the U.S.A."
Aside from that, yeah, this guy actually should probably get a pot of money.
(And congrats, Jon, you've managed to win the crowd back.)
MM bleats:
America is the worst nation on the face of the planet, and this man who was wrongly detained and mistreated is proof of that. Any country that had a clue what it was doing would've just put this guy through a woodchipper and denied it had ever heard of him . . . etc., ad nauseum.
As this bears no relation to what I wrote, I can only assume that you are delusional. The commentors who want to write this guy off as 'collateral damage' or want to immediately assume that he is probably deserving of his fate because of the GWOT and Dan Rather are scum. I wish them ill.
That has nothing to do with whether or not the USA is the most eeeevil ever. Take a cold shower, Sonny Jim.
Erm, the righteous indignation here seems to be jumping the gun.
Here are the facts that are confirmed.
1) Kurnaz was in Gitmo.
2) Kurnaz was released from Gitmo.
Everything else--EVERYTHING--is based on the word of this guy. The torture, the innocence, the allegation that the US "invented" charges, etc.
Based on the fact that we have dozens and dozens of fabricated torture and mistreatment stories that have been proven to be lies, skepticism is a must. He has strong incentive to lie. Yes, the government does too, but like I said, we have longer list of lies told about the US than by it. That might be hard for some of you to accept, but it's true.
Based on the fact that we have dozens and dozens of fabricated torture and mistreatment stories that have been proven to be lies, skepticism is a must. He has strong incentive to lie. Yes, the government does too, but like I said, we have longer list of lies told about the US than by it. That might be hard for some of you to accept, but it's true.
Posted by Nessuno | April 1, 2008 5:20 AM
So that 'some of you' includes Henke for posting the item and making the inferences that he does? Right?
While I understand the skepticism and/or cynicism some of you express about the allegations made in the CBS story, I would point out that this story is not predicated on the word of one former detainee.
Much of the information I have cited is based on the testimony of the Seton Hall professor who went to Guantanamo, and on the US and German government's own reports.
The U.S. never wrongly detains anyone. Except for certain citizens of Wenatchee, Washington. And Raymond Buckey. And, of course, criminal defendants of Mississippi, the state that has yet to discover the cleansing power of DNA evidence.
But other than that, no, the U.S. never wrongly detains anyone. So I have to take the word of my government at face value here.
Neocons post here?
Damn.
Habeas Corpus anyone?
Category: Shit McQ won't let me post at Q&O
Sorry Jon, that was uncalled for on my part.
Jon says . . .
"Mistakes happen, particularly in war, but this was not a mistake."
"Much of the information I have cited is based on the testimony of the Seton Hall professor who went to Guantanamo, and on the US and German government's own reports."
So what's the working hypothesis here? That the US captured a terrorist suspect and then, despite establishing his innocence early on, detained and tortured him for years at great expense and for no purpose. They also willingly come clean about this bizarre behavior to anyone who asks, presumably because they know that nothing that happens at Guantanamo is subject to critical scrutiny.
At first I was skeptical that this was the only possible characterization of this case, but when I heard from Obama's spiritual advisor that the US government (that's right, our government!) is also infecting the third world with HIV/AIDs, it suddenly made perfect sense. At least the world's biggest terrorist will soon be out of the White House.
And did they really cut his ears off? Bastards.
Rejoice! the glorious Fafblog, the precise blogospheric antidote for the Republicanized Atlantic blogs, is running again. Here is an explanation of how scurrilous innocent men are attacking our secret torture prisons FROM WITHIN! http://fafblog.blogspot.com/2006/06/610-changed-everything-run-for-your.html
Run for your lives - America is under attack! Just days ago three prisoners at Guantanamo Bay committed suicide in a savage assault on America's freedom to not care about prisoner suicides! Oh sure, the "Blame Atrocities First" crowd will tell you these prisoners were "driven to despair," that they "had no rights," that they were "held and tortured without due process or judicial oversight in a nightmarish mockery of justice." But what they won't tell you is that they only committed suicide as part of a diabolical ruse to trick the world into thinking our secret torture camp is the kind of secret torture camp that drives its prisoners to commit suicide! This fiendish attempt to slander the great American institution of the gulag is nothing less than an act of asymmetrical warfare against the United States - a noose is just a suicide bomb with a very small blast radius, people! - and when faced with a terrorist attack, America must respond. Giblets demands immediate retaliatory airstrikes on depressed Muslim torture victims throughout the mideast!
"Oh but Giblets there are dozens of innocent prisoners in Guantanamo" you say because you are a namby-pamby appeasenik who suckles at the teat of terror. Well if these Guantanamo prisoners are so innocent then what are they doing in Guantanamo? Sneaking into our secret military prisons as part of an elaborate plot to make it look like we're holding them in our secret military prisons, that's what! And once they get there they can chain themselves to the floor, break their bones on helpless guards' fists, and waterboard themselves to their heart's content to further their sinister Salafi scheme to sully the reputation of secret American torture facilities everywhere!
And that's just the tip of the iceberg! Even as we speak the forces of Islamanazism are infiltrating our network of classified CIA prison camps, rendering themselves to third world dictatorships, and launching unprovoked assaults on innocent American bullets! There's only one thing to do with all these malicious prisoners, torture victims, and massacred civilians - and that's to imprison, torture and massacre them before they can mount another attack! Yes it will be difficult, but these people want to destroy our very way of life - our obliviously violent, guilt-free way of life. Let's roll!
The usual vigorous stupidity and racist folly among the commentariat is surely lacking in Ms. McArdle's absence (although Martin, you are doing your part). Could it really have been a suspension? I was more intrigued by the timing of Andrew Sullivan's quickly announced sabbatical... the possibilities are endless.
America is the worst nation on the face of the planet, and this man who was wrongly detained and mistreated is proof of that. Any country that had a clue what it was doing would've just put this guy through a woodchipper and denied it had ever heard of him, but This Administration's incompetence is once again on display as it lets another go knowing they'll be annointed cause celebre among the gutless handwringer bunch who see no evil on this planet not stamped "Made in the U.S.A."
No, America is not the worst nation on Earth. It is, however, the only nation with a government that is answerable to me, and, consequently, the only nation whose behaviour implicates me by association. That is the whole point of this sort of criticism.
"Based on the fact that we have dozens and dozens of fabricated torture and mistreatment stories that have been proven to be lies, skepticism is a must."
Could you please provide me the names of the people you have in mind? Maybe just ten of the dozens and dozens?
a) The source is CBS--can any one say Dan Rather. b) The US of A does not do these things.
c) When the USA does do these things it's to protect people who don't know they're being protected--and therefore they should shut up.
d) Megan is--allegedly--in Puerto Rico, even though methinks she was suspended.
e) Megan would never, ever question out leaders in the WOT.
anony_mouse_#2, this is anony_mouse_#1 again. You stood me up for that coffee invitation. You do realize this awkward behavior is going to come up again at the family reunion?
Sebastian says . . .
"Could you please provide me the names of the people you have in mind? Maybe just ten of the dozens and dozens?"
Not completely what you had in mind, but this story about Guantanamo "recidivists" suggests there really is a counterpoint to the innocent Muslim held for no reason narrative.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/freed-guantanamo-inmates-take-up-arms/2007/07/27/1185339258055.html
I have no doubt that some of the detainees are "false positives", but Jon's post asserts more: willful ignorance and a malevolence on the part of the military, which if not certifiably true, borders on slander. But I'm just a racist, so what do I know?
Imagine the same story told about another country. We find out that the USSR, or the UK, or Iran, or Israel is running a global network of secret prisons/torture chambers, populated by kidnapping suspected terrorists/enemies of the state off the streets of foreign cities. What sort of justice would you expect from this system, right off the top of your head? I'd expect all kinds of abuses--there's no penalty for getting the wrong guy, there's nothing like a trial or due process, etc.
Hell, imagine a US police force in which there was little or no check on arresting the wrong preson: no grand juries, formal charges, or trials. Wouldn't you expect a bunch of innocent people to be locked up in those circumstances? People who looked guilty to the cops, people arrested to make someone's quota or make someone look good for promotion, people arrested because they p-ssed off the wrong cop--you'd expect all that. This is why we've spent several hundred years developing laws, courts, procedures, etc. Maybe discarding those and trying to invent something new on the fly was a mistake.
anony_mouse_#2 a/k/a anony_mouse_#1,
I am sick and tired of your (drunken) rampages, accusing me of being you. It is disgusting.
Why don't you try to be more positive--for instance trying to figure out what Megan did to get suspended for this whole week. That's what I want to know.
Otherwise, go back to eating your crappy vegan food and soy-milk ice cream, but leave us--the important people--alone.
What is so secret about Guantanamo? It's on TV more often than American Idol and platoons of lawyers shuttle between the US and Cuba to do pro bono service. Moreover, the suspected terrorists do have a form of due process spelled out by Congress, just not the full menu of rights accorded ordinary criminal suspects, because they're not ordinary criminals or even legitimate POWs for that matter.
As with any system, the process of incarcerating and releasing detainees is subject to type I and type II error. No doubt the process for detaining terror suspects has a higher probability of a "false positive" than that of the ordinary criminal justice system, but one possible justification for this is that the consequences of a "false negative" are so much more dire. Accept this argument or not as you like, but don't forget the clear implication of Jon's original blog post: The American Military kidnapped and detained for years a man they knew to be innocent. Apparently they did this just for the hell of it. It is this lurid interpretation I reject, especially when a much more plausible narrative is in plain sight.
See
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/what-60-minutes-didnt-tell-you-about-murat-kurnaz/
for some of the missing details in the CBS story.
. . . And then a strange silence descended upon the jihadi advocates. Well, cheer up folks: there's always the Jenin Massacre. Plus, those chickens haven't come home to roost yet. God damn America!
Way to go mikka! Indeed it seems you may well have possibly uncovered an almost clear cut case of potential thought crime.
Big Brother will be pleased :)