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Ask the blogger

22 Apr 2008 09:35 am

When I say that war crimes are an inevitable byproduct of war, am I trying to excuse the Bush Administration?

No. The point is that when you choose war, you choose war crimes--and that this is true regardless of why you are choosing the war. You may be going to war for reasons that even the staunchest of libertarians would support, like defending your territory from violent attack. Just the same, if the war grinds on for any length of time, you will get people violating the Geneva Conventions, doing obscene things to enemy soldiers (dead and alive), and launching attacks that would horrify the population if they were watching a third party do them. By the time you're a year or so into it, the public and the soldiers are reacting to the last attack and the mountain of dead, not to who started it. Dresden would have been unthinkable in 1939; by the time it happened, anything was justifiable if it saved Allied soldiers.

There are better and worse institutional safeguards against this sort of thing, and the most charitable thing you could possibly say about the Bush administration is that they seemed wholly indifferent to the need to maintain those safeguards. But this, too, has nothing to do with whether we were the aggressor; it's a matter of military culture and administrative decisionmaking.

Naturally, occupations breed certain sorts of transgressions, because the population is resistent. But occupation is hardly the sole province of the aggressor. It's certainly far from clear to me that our current occupation is producing more such incidents, or breakdowns in the justice system, than our occupation of Germany did.

The civil war is producing lots of war crimes committed by Iraqis and foreign terrorists on other Iraqis. But though I agree that we have responsibility for stupidly unleashing a civil war, you can't really categorize a suicide bomb in a market place as an American war crime.

Likewise, I am against the media management. But it's rather milder than what we've done in wars that were indisputably just.

The point is, these things are part of the cost of war, not of the cost of "wars started by the Bush administration" or "wars with bad motives" or "wars we don't like". Sometimes, they are a cost that is worth bearing. Often, they are not, and if I were to consider whether to support a future war, I would weigh them heavily. But they should be weighed even if you think the war is just and right, because they will happen.

Comments (76)

Serious question; when did libertarians remove pacificism from their platform? I clearly remember it being part of the pledge (or whatever) when I was going to sign up in 1993 or so.

Megan wrote: "It's certainly far from clear to me that our current occupation is producing more such incidents, or breakdowns in the justice system, than our occupation of Germany did."


There was a time after the Second World War when the US occupied Germany, and the fraternization between Germans and Americans brought the two countries closer together and helped restore the Western alliance in the Cold War. The postwar occupation of Germany was extremely peaceful and conducive to a reconciliation of the two countries. Cf. Goedde, Petra GIs and Germans


Megan,

Your point is well taken, but I'm not sure why you are making it. Does it mean that Matt Y should stop posting about war crimes because, after all, they are inevidible?

It just seems like an odd way to respond to his post.

"...the most charitable thing you could possibly say about the Bush administration is that they seemed wholly indifferent to the need to maintain those safeguards."

Gosh, Megan, you are so right! Why, clearly, they are indifferent to bombing civilians in the process of fighting, or shooting POWs, or putting civilians in concentration camps, or in engaging in acts of violence and mutilation against suspected terrorists.

I guess I just missed all the stories where those things were reported.

Yes, there have been some problems. In every case of which I am aware, the armed forces themselves discovered the problem and were well on their way to dealing with it when the media stumbled across it and started yammering.

But to suggest that there are no safeguards in place, or that the administration doesn't actively work to prevent such actions is so far detached from reality as to fall into the category of the clock striking thirteen.

It's not clear to me, is McArdle opposed to all governmental media management? Because both the Reagan and Clinton administrations rather prided themselves on their daily media management skills. (The Bush administration seems less interested in that, or at least less skillful.) Or is it just wartime media management that McArdle finds objectionable, which seems strange, since conducting war is certainly a legitimate state job? I really don't follow this point.

"or that the administration doesn't actively work to prevent such actions is so far detached from reality as to fall into the category of the clock striking thirteen."

The administration actively works to keep such activities going (see John Yoo torture memos) and actively works to hide that they are doing it. Remember Abu Gharib and only some low level scape goats ever took the blame? Well, the general assigned to head the investigation was ORDERED to not investigate up the chain of command.

Regarding, unleashing a civil war in Iraq, unless one's preferred outcome was Baathist rule of the population for at least several more decades, and all that it entailed, there was going to be a civil war in Iraq. Now, it is possible that Baathist rule for several more decades was the best of all possible worlds, but one should be honest enough to state so explicitly, and examine in detail what that would have likely meant. Where most critics of this war fall short is there unwillingness to frankly acknowledge what Iraq was under Baathist rule. Yes, civil wars are awful, terrible things. They also tend to be frequently unavoidable, unless one posits a stasis that is rarely observed, and frequently a worse outcome than the civil war. Reading Lincoln's second inaugaural address is helpful when contemplating these issues.

I think your point is correct, but probably too fine a distinction for the usual internet commenters. Get ready for another rousing chorus of "Bush lied, people died" &c.

jj: Huh? Where does what I wrote say that?

What it means is that we shouldn't characterize this as some special province of the particular kind of war we're in. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to prevent it, or report on it; but we should do the same thing in a "good" war.

Oh, and just to be more clear, Baathist rule extending several more decades would not have guaranteed that a civil war would have been avoided. It is hard to envision any change from Baathist rule that does not entail a civil war. It is probably worthwhile to examine how heavily this civil war weighs on the scales of awfulness, compared to other civil wars of the past sixty years or so.

While I tend to stand against war in general and certainly offensive war in particular, I do agree that once you have a war going on, it is almost inevitable that "war crimes" will occur. I think a lot of folks who join the military (not to mention police officers and prison guards) have authoritarian or sadistic tendencies which in turn increase the probability of war crimes being committed, especially given the stress of being under fire, in a strange land, among hostile locals.

What would you expect from people who sign up for a job where you maim and kill people you don't even know, just because someone else told you to do it?

(sorry if I offend anyone; I know a few of you just signed up for the tuition support or needed the money and got more than you bargained for)

But whatever; I grudgingly accept (resign myself to?) this as a part of human nature, since were not really as far removed from the rest of the animal kingdom as I would like to think. What really gets my goat is that the USA attempts to maintain this bullshit air of moral superiority while committing the same acts that it condemns. Saddam hung while Bush and Cheney preside over crimes of equal magnitude? Hypocrisy at its worst. This country and its moral standards in international conduct are no better than that of any tin pot dictatorship.

The current conceptualization of "war crimes" is little more than an attempt to lend a thin veneer of respectability to the age-old victors justice. I would be less offended if people would just call a spade a spade instead of trying to maintain the pretext of "prosecuting" these "crimes".

It's true that a certain level of atrocities and war crimes are the inevitable by-products of war (a fact that Megan and many others should have had in mind in 2002), but that does nothing to remove the imperative to minimize such abuses and punish offenders.

Furthermore, while some of the war crimes associated with the Iraq war and GWOT are your regular "bad apples" phenomena and have been dealt with more-or-less appropriately, the use of torture has been relentlessly advocated by the Bush Adminstration at the highest levels. This is a far cry from inevitable, regrettable abuses. The Bush Administration has consciously decided to implement wide-spread torture as a government policy, and Megan should be taking it much more seriously.

The historical ignorance of many war critics, feigned or genuine, is also a source of much useless rhetoric. People like Andrew Sullivan have been among the most active in spreading ignorance, as if they believe a more ignorant populace is one that is less likley to engage in horrible acts. I think the exact opposite is much more likely to be true.

Of course, those that support this war have their own contingent of dishonest hacks who have made things much worse than they needed to be. I remember hearing that fool Ken Adelman speaking of "cakewalks" prior to the invasion, and thinking of how much excess suffering would be endured because of that mindset. This sort of idiocy is common to any war, however; ladies and gentleman, in their finest clothing, came out to the battery in Charleston, to celebrate and have a grand old time, while observing the start of the American Civil War with the shelling of Fort Sumter, so convinced they were that what was to come would be altogether a brief and glorious development.

It is a little more unusual to listen to fools paint a rosy picture of past conflicts, in order to cast the current conflict in a worse light, but it likely isn't any less damaging in the long run.

This is a non sequitur:

"the most charitable thing you could possibly say about the Bush administration is that they seemed wholly indifferent to the need to maintain those safeguards"

The rest of your post makes the point that bad things are inevitable during war, in spite of all the safeguards.

It is certainly possible, and indeed plausibly charitable, to say that the Bush administration took reasonable steps to ensure the appropriate safeguards were maintained. Perhaps that is a big reason why US troops did not commit nearly the same number of bad acts as UN troops in other conflicts (e.g., rapes in African conflict).

I am not defending the war or the handling thereof, and I admit there has been much room for improvement... But you are making very harsh accusations without much in the way of proof.

How do you know that the administration was "indifferent" at best? You can't know that.

Indeed, this blog often cites the good intentions liberal leaders who incompetently administer well-meaning programs to ill effect. You can at least give Bush the same benefit of any doubt. Perhaps you could have written:

"Whatever the intentions of the Bush Administration, the safeguards were not maintained well enough to prevent bad acts."

That is more fair and accurate.


Megan,

I guess I just take exception to your claim that Matt Y was making a "weirdly specific" point. As he notes, this media control is the type of thing that happens in a "protracted Iraq-style engagement", a description which to my mind could be applied to almost all of the United States' historical military engagements.

In any case it is still worth MY's time to point out such media manipulation and it just felt that by taking time to parse his post, you may have believed otherwise.

I generally agree - there will be atrocities whenever there is war. But unless there's some memo I'm not aware of, neither Roosevelt nor Truman ever instituted a torture facility for captured Hitler Youth. That's the crucial difference.

We invaded Iraq without provocation. That is the war crime, from which all others flowed. This is obvious.

Nuremberg Laws: VI a.
Crimes against peace:
Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances

In international law, preventive war has no recognized status as distinct from a war of aggression.

Occupied Iraq is as safe and orderly (or as unsafe and disorderly) as Occupied Germany? Do you have any facts to back this assertion?

Hey STC,

First off, I understand why you apologized to people who signed up for "tuition support or needed the money and got more than you bargained for". But you are leaving out another group entirely - young idealists who honestly signed up to defend and, if necessary, sacrifice themselves for their fellow citizens.

I have two younger cousins who signed up in the wake of 9/11 for six-year hitches in the military. They honestly and sincerely intended to use their bodies to shield their freinds and neighbors from what at the time looked like it could develop into a cascade of attacks on American civilians. They ended up in Iraq.

Susan, I was referring specifically to the things that our troops did to a) German troops and b) civilians. I did not make the ludicrous claim that Iraq is more orderly than Occupied Germany, but most of the violence is Iraqi-on-Iraqi.

>Dresden would have been unthinkable in 1939; by the time it
>happened, anything was justifiable if it saved Allied soldiers.

Are you sure of this? After World War I people were pretty bitter. I'm not so sure that a lot of Americans (and Europeans), sick of German aggression, wouldn't have been in favor wiping them out from the start. Remember, it wasn't just Dresden and it wasn't only in Europe that civilians were bombed.

> neither Roosevelt nor Truman ever instituted a
> torture facility for captured Hitler Youth

So, you figure that George Bush personally instructed his troops to set up a torture facility? Or, are you claiming that no atrocities were committed during World War II? What about Korea or Vietnam?

Lastly, you might remember that during World War II we did take prisoners and we did transport them to the US and inter them in camps indefinitely, without recourse to lawyers, courts or any civilian due process. Only when the war was over and the documents signed were the prisoners returned (although, interestingly enough, many begged to stay in the US).

STC provides a good example of the historical ignorance of which I speak. Throughout nearly all of human history, a militarily and economically weak people, sitting atop a natural resouce in extreme demand, and in a state of hostility with far more powerful people, would have been nearly totally slaughtered or enslaved at first opportunity, by whatever tin pot dictator ruled the more powerful people. Within the past few hundred years, colonialism, a sometimes slightly less cruel method of resource extraction than outright slaughter, became more prevalent.

After WWII, even colonialism fell into disfavor, and the world is strugggling to develop a model which allows for the resource extraction that people absolutely demand, to improve or maintain living standards, while controlling the otherwise weak population which sits atop the resources, without employing outright slaughter or colonial rule. A hybrid system of paying off local despots to control the population while the demanded resource is extracted, has been the generally accepted method, but it is not without it's flaws, as we have seen. Yes, it would be nice if the extraction of Persian Gulf oil could be achieved with the same political/economic model employed to exploit Canada's or Norway's reserves, but getting there is pretty hard, ain't it?

Occupation is the sole province of the aggressor, Megan. If you commit a crime you are legally responsible for the aftermath, including the civil unrest set off by violence and lack of necessities for living, as well as the unleashing of sectarian violence in the power vacuum. The reason you are ignoring this information is because once again you are avoiding the intitial crime, which you supported.

It's a cute trick, blaming the Iraqis for being invaded, though. Kudos.

Tel, Roosevelt purposely approved of a propaganda campaing designed to inculcate in American military personnel the belief that the Japanese were subhumans, to be accorded little more consideration than cockroaches, for the express purpose of encouaging the harshest possible battlefield treatment of Japanese, even Japanese who had surrendered or were otherwise helpless. This resulted in charming practices such as captured Japanese being used for target practice, or wounded but still living Japanese having their gold teeth extracted with a bayonet.

True, American political leadership was smart enough to enforce prohibitons of such treatment once a Japanese prisoner was transportd to rear areas, but make no mistake, the propaganda campaign that Roosevelt approved was expressly designed to consign Japanese encountered closer to the battlefield to subhuman status, with all the treatment such status entailed. The Americans won, of course, so such a war crime gets relegated to the dustbin of history. It would be as if Bush had decided to run Guantanamo like a Club Fed prison, while constantly sending the message to the front line troops that the people encountered in Iraq were no more than insects.

I suspect that if Iraq had been invaded in the manner Germany was, the aftermath would have been more orderly. I don't think the Iraqis wold have preferred that option, however.

I would dispute the basic claim that information was more managed in previous wars than it currently is in this one.

I got a fun gift one Christmas - an oversize coffee table book containing the front pages from the New York Times on significant news event days. And one thing that struck me about the WWII coverage in the Times was its high level of honesty in the face of adversity.

When the Phillipines fell, it was accurately reported. When thousands of men died storming some tiny island in the Pacific, it was accurately reported. And so forth. One thing that is not in evidence is any FDR administration "spokesmen" coming out and trying to claim that the Phillipines did not actually fall, or to in any way spin the bad news as anything other than bad news. And there was no pro-FDR blogosphere of Tom Friedmans claiming in March 1942 that the war would only last six more months [and then making the same claim in September 42, March 43, and so forth].

Similarly, in Viet Nam reporters had the run of the country, and could film what they wanted to film and photograph what they wanted to photograph. In Iraq, in addition to the practical considerations of safety outside the Green Zone, our journalists have to deal with a local regime that forbids photography at the scene of insurgent attacks. Ever wonder why there used to be video footage of attack scenes in Iraq, and then all of a sudden there was none? The Iraqi government made it illegal, and our military backs them up on it.

Susan, what were we doing in Germany, then?

Brian, do you know when the first picture of a dead American soldier appeared in an American newspaper or magazine in WWII? You may wish to also google "Devon Beach" or "The Leopoldville"

"Lastly, you might remember that during World War II we did take prisoners and we did transport them to the US and inter them in camps indefinitely, without recourse to lawyers, courts or any civilian due process. Only when the war was over and the documents signed were the prisoners returned (although, interestingly enough, many begged to stay in the US)."

According to the Geneva Conventions this is how you're allowed to treat prisoners of war. The reasoning is that it's easy to tell that the guy in the German uniform, who speaks German and gives himself up as a prisoner is in all likelyhood a POW. The second reason is that the eventual goal is that they are returned to their country once the war is over.

So, do you think that the intentions of places like Guantanamo Bay are to ever release their prisoners? Are they treated as prisoners of war as described by the Geneva Conventions?

"Tel, Roosevelt purposely approved of a propaganda campaing designed to inculcate in American military personnel the belief that the Japanese were subhumans"

This is the basis of every war, and the reason why you don't allow troops to fraternize with the enemy. It's one of the realities of war, that if you start to think of the enemy as humans just like yourself then it's much harder to kill them. Anyone else remember that story about the German and Allied soldiers spending a Christmas together in WWI? The aftermath was that many soldiers refused to fight after finding out the troops on the other side were humans just like them.

We were responsible for what happened under our occupation in Germany. We are responsible for what is happening under our occupation in Iraq.

This discussion started because some people tried to tell you that we are committing war crimes, we have the moral responsiblity to stop these crimes, and people with the opportunity to have their voices heard, especially, should speak up about it. It's not about sexism. It's not about circulation. It's not about who's killing whom today. It's about standing up for what's right.

Although you said "Americans don't care" about torture reports, it is obvious despite all your protestations and disgressions that you don't care about tortue. So be it. You don't need to create justifications for your lack of concern.

Yes, JordanT, and there were German propagandists who were executed for war crimes, primarily because their side lost. In any case, the American propaganda campaign developed for the European Theater was much different than that for the Pacific Theater, with a much greater emphasis on the intrinsic subhuman qualities of the Japanese. This was blatantly racist in design and execution. The greater the perceived cultural and racial differences, the more harsh the treatment of the enemy will be.

No, susan, the implication was that how a war starts will have a significant impact on the existence of war crimes. This is false. If one thinks this war was wrong to start, than that argument should be made. The existence of war crimes has no impact on the rightness or wrongness of the argument, however, given that war crimes are inherent in every war.

In Steven Pinker's The Blank Slate he writes that opponents of a human nature are often fearful that if human actions are explained by chemical processes in the brain, then there is no point in punishing those whose transgressions against society are merely products of their brain chemistry. Pinker writes that just because something can be explained and is an inevitable by product of the nature of something does not mean that it can be excused. In war, war crimes happen, but those who commit war crimes should still be punished accordingly, even if the actions save American lives.

Rob - in a word, yes. I believe that George W. Bush, along with other members of his administration, personally instructed members of both the military and our intelligence agencies to set up such a torture facility.

Yes, there were atrocities committed in all of our other conflicts, and there were certainly cases where officers looked the other way. But up until now there has not been a single time in our history where the detention and torture of suspects has been a positive policy. This will stain us worse than the Japanese internment.

"Dresden would have been unthinkable in 1939; by the time it happened, anything was justifiable if it saved Allied soldiers."

Or even if we were told it would save Allied soldiers despite significant evidence to the contrary. Like, for example, using nuclear weapons on civilians.

"It's certainly far from clear to me that our current occupation is producing more such incidents, or breakdowns in the justice system, than our occupation of Germany did."

Why are you using the past tense? We're still occupying Germany.

No. The point is that when you choose war, you choose war crimes--and that this is true regardless of why you are choosing the war.

And the point of defining "war crimes" in the first place is to deter people from committing those crimes, and to punish them if they go ahead and commit them anyway.

Megan, what we have in this instance is a situation where clearly war crimes were committed by American forces and civilian paramilitary "contractors" with the full knowledge, approval, and possibly even at the positive order of our national leadership. There is no getting around that, and the evidence mounts month after month. Yet all the prosecutions and convictions we have seen have been of low-level functionaries, bit players and scapegoats. As a libertarian, you should believe (and apparently do) that a law that is disregarded even by those charged with its faithful execution is a bad law.

So, do you believe that there is no such thing as enabling a war crime? Is there in your mind a difference between ordering a war crime and actually committing that war crime that absolves the one who ordered the crime from liability? You don't have to be a lawyer to answer that question, it's a question of your own personal morality and sense of ethics.

It's certainly far from clear to me that our current occupation is producing more such incidents, or breakdowns in the justice system, than our occupation of Germany did.

The civil war is producing lots of war crimes committed by Iraqis and foreign terrorists on other Iraqis. But though I agree that we have responsibility for stupidly unleashing a civil war, you can't really categorize a suicide bomb in a market place as an American war crime.

If you can't see that this occupation is far FAR more violence-ridden and corruption-infested than our occupations of Germany and Japan were, you're actively trying to not see it. The evidence is simply overwhelming! How much do you need to see?

And bringing in "war crimes committed by Iraqis and foreign terrorists" is bringing in a big fat red herring. DON'T CHANGE THE SUBJECT! We're talking about war crimes committed by Americans, with knowledge and/or on orders from the highest levels of authority in our government. That is, or should be, outrageous regardless of whether you think war crimes are inevitable or that war itself is unjust.

Our leaders are implicated in obscenity. It needs to be investigated, the truth discovered and any violations of law punished; but they are using all the considerable mechanisms at their disposal to frustrate any efforts along those lines, so progress has been slow. You should be outraged at such behavior, a travesty of justice that makes a mockery of the principles our nation is supposed to uphold.

"It is probably worthwhile to examine how heavily this civil war weighs on the scales of awfulness, compared to other civil wars of the past sixty years or so."

A worthwhile example to consider is the partition of India and Pakistan, just a bit more than 60 years ago. Those suggesting that partition of Iraq is an easy solution, and preferable to the current attempts at a unified government, should carefully consider the horrendous violence that this 'peaceful' partition involved. India and Pakistan are still engaging in conflict over Kashmir, and the stories from the time of Partition of neighbor turning on neighbor are far worse than what we've seen so far in Iraq.

liberalrob, I think you entirely understimate the level of corrption in occupied Germany in the immediate aftrmath of the war, and the reason why the violence was lower during occupation was that, in contrast to Iraq, we endeavored to kill several million Germans during the course of invasion. I suppose if Bagdhad had been given the Dresden treatment, it would have been rather less violent when we showed up to occupy it.

I was so wound-up I forgot the first sentence:

When I say that war crimes are an inevitable byproduct of war, am I trying to excuse the Bush Administration?

Yes, you are, because you are minimizing the magnitude of any one atrocity by making it a generic consequence. It would be like saying Auschwitz wasn't particularly outrageous because of Dachau and Bergen-Belsen and the dozens of other camps, which were all the inevitable consequences of deciding to exterminate masses of people ("and what about the Siberian gulags?"). Atrocity is not any less atrocious because it is common.

Will, are you suggesting that we made a mistake not going all Dresden on Baghdad? Or are you suggesting that the problems we are having right now are simply the regrettable consequences of our attempt to fight a more humane war?

Comparisons with the occupation of Germany after WWII are difficult, precisely because that was an occupation that came after the end of a long, destructive war, as Will Allen pointed out. In Iraq, the invasion was over fairly quickly but the war with Al Qaeda continues. Al Qaeda in Iraq has been doing everything possible to start/aggravate a civil war, while Iran and others have also been making trouble.

Puck, I am saying the political goals of this war are far more complicated than that of WWII, and thus the military action is terribly more nuanced in it's requirements. It may have been a mistake to go to great lengths to convince the Baathist military to desert prior to invasion, and it my have resulted in less suffering to encourage the more committed members of the Baathist military to meet us on the battlefield duiring the initial invasion, but who really knows?

Will et al,

Ex-military here and from contacts in the pentagon one of the discussions going around is the question of how can we conquer a country and get the German/Japan type occupation (i.e. little/no resistance)? The major difference between Iraq and these two countries is that we managed to kill/maim a large percentage of the military aged male population, plus a chunk of the civilian pop, and leveled all the major cities. We did not do any of that in Iraq - the inital conquest was a cake-walk in every sense of the word. (as was Afghanistan). Iraq was taken basically intact, if even in a horrible shape after decades of Baathest tyrrany.

So instead of the far more humane, life-saving approach should we decide instead that to get a peaceful occupation like Germany (still there going on 63 years) we need to slag the country? Instead of sending in the Marines to retake Falujah in house-to-house fighting, should we have just dropped a 50kt nuke?

How do you conquer on Islamic country is being discussed heavily in the military. I happen to be a pessimist on the topic, but if we can get Iraq standing up before we get hit again we can have a template for doing so in a humane way. If not we can always go back to "peace - the old-fasioned way."

And BTW, it was not illegal in any way to invade Iraq. If it was there are a lot of Generals and congress-critters who will be joining Bush in a war-crimes tribunal. Plus every officer and NCO who participated in carrying out an illegal order. Tell me how that's going for you.

So, do you think that the intentions of places like Guantanamo Bay are to ever release their prisoners?

JordanT, as I understand it, prisoners have been and are being released from Guantanamo. Indeed, it seems to be in the process of being shut down. Here is Wikipedia on the topic. (I seem to recall similar numbers being reported in The Economist.)

"Since the beginning of the War in Afghanistan, 775 detainees have been brought to Guantanamo, approximately 420 of which have been released. As of August 9, 2007, approximately 355 detainees remain. More than a fifth are cleared for release but may have to wait months or years because U.S. officials are finding it increasingly difficult to allocate places to send them, according to officials and defense lawyers. Of the roughly 355 still incarcerated, U.S. officials said they intend to eventually put 60 to 80 on trial and free the rest. On February 9, 2008, it was reported that 6 of the detainees at the Guantanamo Bay facility would be prosecuted for conspiracy in the 9/11 terrorist attacks.[4]"

Will, I think you underestimate the political goals of WWII. There was a lot of uncertainty about what the world would look like after the war and a lot of work and money went into sorting things out. Still, that's nitpicking as I'm sure you know that. What is interesting is how bloodless the Iraq war has been compared to the Russian adventures in Afghanistan. It remains to be seen if the civil war in Iraq post withdrawal will be anything as bad as what happened in Afghanistan after the Russians left. I'm really not expert enough to venture a meaningful guess but my intuition says no.

I should have said Soviet Union instead of Russia in that last post. Mea culpa.

Puck, I perhaps didn't state it clearly. The political goals of WWII were indeed difficult to achieve, but they were unsubtle; the total destruction of two nations' ability to wage war, via the application of limitless violence, to be followed, after the utter and complete atomization of those two societies, with rebuilding them following a republican model. Furthermore, the republican model was not completely foreign to those societies. What is being attempted now is a much, much, more subtle task.

Susan,

I can't evaluate the world where you are, but you really ought to try the one the rest of us are living in.

I guess all those UN resolutions Saddam violated have just vanished from your world.

What is being attempted now is a much, much, more subtle task.

I guess we now know that subtlety is not the current administration's forte'.

Will, I think it a lot easier to talk of subtlety when pondering the uncertainty of the future than when thinking about the certainties of the past. I agree that Iraq and WWII are wholly separate beasts and frankly was annoyed at the "appeasement" meme that the administration used to drum up support for the war. By the time WWII ended it wasn't just about destroying two nations ability to wage war. It was about that and about what to do when you won and your ally was really your enemy. It wasn't simple at all. That said you are absolutely correct that the rebuilding was easier. Perhaps moreso because of the menace of the Warsaw Pact. The problem with the Iraq war isn't that it is so nuanced. It is that our goals are so hard to achieve for very un-nuanced reasons. If you recall, we were actually secretly sending arms to Iran during the Iran/Iraq conflict in the 80's in a kind of proxy war with the USSR (overstating but you see the idea). It is interesting to note that Iraq invaded Iran in the early 80s setting off a conflict that killed a lot more people than this war is going to kill (fingers crossed) and no one did a thing about it at the time.

War crimes committed by rogue soldiers or officers may be inevitable, but torture sanctioned and encouraged by a President is not.

Thanks, Howard you took the words right out of my mouth. Also, if war crimes are inevitable when you choose ware, we should damn well be selective about what wars to get into. Invading Iraq on flimsy evidence of chemical weapons was the big mistake.

The original post is asinine. I can't believe anyone is even responding to it. Odd, relativist tripe coming from someone who would ordinarily (is there such a thing though? now I wonder) condemn that approach. Ugh.

The original post is asinine. I can't believe anyone is even responding to it. Odd, relativist tripe coming from someone who would ordinarily (is there such a thing though? now I wonder) condemn that approach. Ugh.

Sully led me to this foolishness. His comment:

"I'm sorry but this is preposterous, uninformed, ahistorical. The United States has managed to go to war for two centuries without the president authorizing and monitoring the torture of prisoners. The Bush administration's legalization of torture and withdrawal from Geneva is unique in American history. Yes, wars will lead to individuals committing war crimes in the heat of battle. Yes, it carries a horrifying logic. But an advance, pre-meditated decision by the president to engage in war crimes is new and unprecedented. Bush really is uniquely awful as a president in this respect: an indefensible war criminal, who has permanently stained the country he represents and betrayed the soldiers who expect decency and lawfulness in their commander-in-chief."

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/04/war-crimes.html

Stick to a subject you are better suited to opine upon Megan.

Tom and JordanT,

In last week's New Yorker, Jeffrey Toobin wrote a story about Guat Bay. Short version: while many prisoners have been released, there are still several hundred in custody. The trials are going to be ramping up (Toobin hints that the Bush Administration will make it a political issue this summer), and for many of the prisoners, an acquittal will spare them death, but they will be forced to remain in custody. It is all pretty f'ed up.

Sully is his usual disingenuous or ignorant self. When FDR approves a propaganda campaign designed to specifically inculcate in American military personnel the notion that Japanese people are subhuman, with no more moral value than insects (which was not done with regards to Germans), what follows, like using prisoners for target practice, or removing gold teeth form living prisoners with a bayonet, is not merely something that happens in the heat of battle, but rather something that was planned and designed. If the U.S. had lost, the people who instigated that propaganda campaign likely would have been triled for war crimes. According to Sullivan's airtight logic, if Rumsfeld had been smart, he would have enforced strict codes of conduct for prisoners removed to rear areas, but encouraged the troops in the field to treat the Iraqis or Afghans like cockroaches.

"Sully is his usual disingenuous or ignorant self. When FDR approves a propaganda campaign designed to specifically inculcate in American military personnel the notion that Japanese people are subhuman, with no more moral value than insects (which was not done with regards to Germans), what follows, like using prisoners for target practice, or removing gold teeth form living prisoners with a bayonet, is not merely something that happens in the heat of battle, but rather something that was planned and designed."

The analogy might fit but for -- the facts.

There is a big difference between "setting the conditions" to engage in torture, and legalizing torture.

Effin' hell.

Furthermore, Sullivan, typically intellectually lazy, misreads McArdle. There is nothing that McArdle writes which disputes the notion that Bush may be a uniquely bad President, for explicitly authorizing torture. She disputes the notion that the reason why a war was started has any impact on inevitability of war crimes, or the wrongness of war crimes.

Sullivan's ignorance of history is astounding.

It was the Roosevelt Administration which, aside from coming up with the original Military Commissions to try German Spies, rounded up an entire population of loyal Japanese-American citizens and put them into concentration camps.

Without due process. Without so much as a by-your leave. With the assistance of Earl Warren, future Supreme Court Chief Justice. He of the Warren Report.

They were put there because of their race and nationality.

The Administration succeeded in getting the entire process affirmed by the SCOTUS in the Korematsu decision, much to the discredit of the Court.

Megan's article is dead on. War has its own terrible logic. 1939 leads to Dresden and on to Hiroshima. It's as night follows day. Monitoring ourselves is a challenge, but acting as if the people on the Principals Committee were somehow uniquely evil is brain-addled nonsense (something the news media agrees with, now that they know the Democrats were kept fully informed, which is why this story hasn't gotten big play) and partisan high-sticking.

Not really, sy, as various Nazi propagandists prosecuted for the war crime of encouraging still other war crimes could attest. The propagandist, or the President who issues orders to the propagandist, who deliberately engages in mass communication designed to encourage soldiers in the field to subject the enemy they encounter to treatment which violates the laws of war, is engaged in a war crime. Here's one summary of what it entailed....

"Government publications for U.S. servicemen frequently depicted the Japanese in a similar manner. Yank, the weekly magazine of the U.S. Army, referred to Japanese working on the airfield on Guadalcanal as "termites," while a piece of War Department training literature entitled The Jap Soldier, derived from an instructional filmstrip of the same title, informed GIs that Marines fighting in the Solomons believed that the presence of the enemy could be detected by their odor, described as "the gamey smell of animals."(20) Another War Department treatise likened the Japanese soldier to a poisonous snake, and urged readers to use their "better brains" in combating him. Referring to the cumulative impact of such imagery, a U.S. Army veteran remembers that "[w]e had been fed tales of these yellow thugs, subhumans, with teeth that resembled fangs. If a hundred thousand Japs were killed, so much the better. Two hundred thousand, even better. I wasn't innocent, either. You couldn't escape it."(21)

Again, the fact that propaganda designed for the European theater did not nearly as frequently contain this element of reducing the enemy to the status of an animal shows the intent was to single out Japanese as uniquely fit for mistreatment. If the U.S. had lost, FDR would have swung, with a reasonable legal pretext, by the same standards the U.S. employed against Nazis, not that the Japanese weren't much worse violators, of course.

This is why people treat you like you're stupid. It's not because you're a woman; it's because you insist on being stupid.

You know, there's no point in getting upset about corruption. When you have people, you have corruption. Inevitably. So if your local police department is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Mafia, there's no point in blaming the police chief. That's just how things are.

Reading is fundamental, Mike.

Ms. McCardle, I understand what you are trying to say, but it's really better left unsaid on a blog because an effort to post something like this publicly can only be construed as an attempt to minimize what's happened in Iraq and to minimize the Bush administration's culpability in the events that have transpired.

I'm sure that's not what you meant, but really, you must see that that's how it would be interpreted.

PS: Why do you keep saying you don't write about politics, but you write about economics? This is not economics.

Mike is "dead on."

Removing the "war" part from the "started by the Bush administration" part is senseless. We all know that war crimes happen in war - this is obvious. What makes this war so deplorable is that a) we started it needlessly based on false premises and against international law and then b) institutionalized and implemented torture and war crimes from the top down. This is Bush's war - and that of the portion of the US electorate who chose (Twice!!!) to elect this immoral moron and by relation the lackeys he has had do his dirty work. In this case, Bad leader choosing to pursue a Bad war based on Idiotic and immoral policies = war crimes and torture.

The amazing thing is that most of the same dunces who voted in Bush are now going to try to elect his warmongering, imperialist pal McCain to do the same dang thing. Will we ever learn...

noseeum, why must it be seen that way? Must we assume that a majority of the reading public cannot accurately determine the common meaning of words?

Will, when you have a website, and you post your thoughts on it, readers assume you took a moment to determine how best to use your typing energy for the day. You can write about anything that day.

When you make the decision to write about the fact that war crimes happen in all wars in the midst of a time when people are harshly critical of the administration's conduct in the area of war crimes, it's going to ruffle some feathers. It's a sensitive issue rife for emotional reactions. And in that immediacy, people who feel strongly about it will simply go to the bottom and scream, "how can you defend the Bush administration!"

It doesn't make them right. But it still happens. How can anyone think Obama is racist because Reverend Wright said something? Because that's what people do. The misinterpet.

So if you're going to explain that war crimes happen in all wars, it behooves you (or maybe not because angry commenters generate a lot of traffic!) to provide some large disclaimers. Very large!

noseeum, I took McArdle's post in the context of previous interactions she has had with others on the subject, and can see how a first time or infrequent visitor may missed such context, so you have a point. On the other hand, it is a constant source of amazement to me in these forums that so many people have such exceedingly poor reading skills. One can write, "The world is not flat", and very predictably some will claim that one has written "The world is cube-shaped". Half the arguments that break out in blogistan, it sometimes seems to me, occur because people are either unable or too damned lazy to read what was actually written, instead of listening to the screeching voices in their head.

Funny how when Greenwald was making essentially this argument about both MM and Drezner's support of the war, he was committing grave personal offenses against their integrity.

To be fair, if you want to be understood by a wide audience, there are some rhetorical strategies available (the effectiveness of which are debatable to be sure) to turn down the volume of those sceeching voices. I suspect if you are trying to make a go of it as a blogger it isn't necessarily in your best interests to avail yourself of such strategies.

Pooh, I noticed that as well. I think MM and GG draw different conclusions from their agreed upon premises (wars lead to war crimes) but that fight it pretty much burnt out and it is pretty late in this thread to try and get it going again.

She disputes the notion that the reason why a war was started has any impact on inevitability of war crimes, or the wrongness of war crimes.

Which no one denies and is practically orthogonal to the point Glenn Greenwald was trying to make, which is that THIS war has been characterized by war crimes and that THIS administration is culpable and lawless. What the heck is she trying to discuss? Because it sure as shootin' looks like she's rationalizing war crimes and thereby trying to excuse the administration. If she's trying to have a philosophical discussion she's doing a damn poor job of it.

liberalrob, Greenwald use the qualifier "war of aggression", thus implying that war crimes are somehow specially affected by why a war was begun. If Greenwald wants to condemn a war crime, he should just do it, without tying it to a description of how the war started.

I paraphrase something I read very recently:

Make no mistake. No matter how justifiable the war may be, it is always a criminal enterprise.

Reading is fundamental, Mike.

Then by all means, learn. I'm rooting for you!

Reading is fundamental. Read and weep, Will

CIA Foresaw Interrogation Issues

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/23/AR2008042303249_pf.html

By Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, April 24, 2008; A16

The CIA concluded that criminal, administrative or civil investigations stemming from harsh interrogation tactics were "virtually inevitable," leading the agency to seek legal support from the Justice Department, according to a CIA official's statement in court documents filed yesterday.

The CIA said it had identified more than 7,000 pages of classified memos, e-mails and other records relating to its secret prison and interrogation program, but maintained that the materials cannot be released because they relate to, in part, communications between CIA and Justice Department attorneys or discussions with the White House.

Nineteen of those documents were withheld from disclosure specifically because the Bush administration decided they are covered by a "presidential communications privilege," according to the filings, made in federal court in Manhattan. Some were "authored or solicited and received by the President's senior advisors in connection with a decision, or potential decision, to be made by the president."

Although the precise content of the documents is unknown, the agency's statements illustrate the extent to which senior White House officials were involved in decision-making on CIA detentions, interrogations, and renditions, a term for forced transfers of prisoners. These topics were the targets of a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit by liberal advocacy groups that compelled the CIA's disclosures.

The flow of documents, by itself, also suggests that the CIA's unorthodox interrogation program was the focus of behind-the-scenes debate at the highest levels of the Bush administration after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. The documents indicate that lawyers at the CIA and elsewhere were aware that CIA personnel might be subject to criminal prosecution or other legal sanctions.

After the CIA's use of harsh interrogation tactics, including a form of simulated drowning, became known, the agency said they were authorized by a series of secret Justice Department legal opinions. President Bush has strongly defended the legality and efficacy of the program, and recently acknowledged that he approved of high-level White House meetings on precise interrogation practices.

The records submitted to the court list and briefly describe dozens of communications between the CIA and the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel, or OLC. At least 10 were in 2004, five were in 2005, and seven were in 2006; virtually all were classified "top secret" or even more restricted.

"The CIA's purpose in requesting advice from OLC was the very likely prospect of criminal, civil, or administrative litigation against the CIA and CIA personnel who participate in the Program," said a declaration from Ralph S. DiMaio, information review officer for the CIA's clandestine service. He added that the CIA considered such proceedings "to be virtually inevitable."

Asked for comment, CIA spokesman George Little said, "Weighing relevant legal factors at the start of any new program is not only logical but is the responsible thing to do. Unfortunately, the fact that people and organizations follow the law does not prevent them from becoming the subject of litigation later on."

But Curt Goering, senior deputy executive director of Amnesty International USA, which is involved in the lawsuit, said the flow of documents shows that the Bush administration "didn't go into this system blind and they didn't build this system blind," adding: "It appears to be a calculated and calibrated effort to justify the unjustifiable."