« Dear Megan | Main | Taxes revolt »

Culture clash

15 Apr 2008 08:29 am

This excellent post by Publius on Thomas Frank triggers two thoughts, one frivolous, one not.

First, the frivolity: it is time to stop referring to ourselves or our demographic as "latte-sipping", etc.


The second potential argument is more interesting. It’s not that economics causes the culture wars, but that the culture wars are distractions from economic issues. This one hits far closer to the mark. There’s no doubt that Republicans fan the culture war flames to distract working class voters from other issues.

This “distraction” argument is the one Democrats use the most often, but it too has weaknesses. In particular, it’s not clear why cultural issues should play second fiddle to economic ones. Objectively speaking, economic issues don't necessarily have more value than cultural ones. Sure, most of these cultural grievances seem silly to me, but I drink steamed milk with espresso (sometimes even with delectable pumpkin spices) so what do I know. But seriously, if I thought abortion was truly murder, then marginal tax rates would be a lower priority.

You can now get a perfectly serviceable dry skim milk cappuccino at the Dunkin' Donuts in my mother's largely working-class hometown, which is smack in the middle of the reddest county in New York State. Time for a new metaphor. Soy chais, perhaps.

Non frivolous point: Publius is particularly smart here:

But what is irrational is for working class Americans to support Republican economic policies themselves. It’s one thing to support the Republican Party, but it’s quite another to support its regressive, anti-work, pro-wealth economic policies on the merits. If working class Republicans were acting rationally, they should at least advocate for more populist economic policies within the confines of the party.

But you don’t see that. Unlike the IP example above, it’s not like a big chunk of working class Republicans support the party on cultural issues, yet push behind the scenes for more equitable tax codes or more labor-friendly legislation/regulation. Most are as gung-ho on tax cuts for the rich as they are on gay marriage and abortion.

It’s here, then, that Frank’s “false consciousness” argument gains steam. It’s not so much that the culture wars are distracting people from economic issues. It’s that the culture wars cause people to prefer specific economic policies that they should be opposing.

Specifically, the anger and resentment triggered in the culture wars bleed into the realm of economics. If the liberals like it, it must be wrong. For instance, if contemptible secular liberals prefer gay marriage, then whatever economic argument they are making is probably wrong too. In this sense, the culture wars cause many working class Americans to give their “proxy” to Republicans, even on economic issues.

But of course, the thing runs the other way: liberals reject things merely because conservatives believe them. Our cultural and economic beliefs cluster irrationally on both sides, as Michael Huemer has noted:

Two beliefs are ‘logically unrelated’ if neither of them, if true, would constitute evidence for or against the other. Many logically unrelated beliefs are correlated—that is, you can often predict someone’s belief about one issue on the basis of his opinion about some other, completely unrelated issue. For example, people who support gun control are much more likely to support welfare programs and abortion rights. Since these issues are logically unrelated to each other, on a purely cognitive theory of people’s political beliefs, we would expect there to be no correlation.

Sometimes the observed correlations are the opposite of what one would expect on the basis of reason alone—sometimes, that is, people who hold one belief are less likely to hold other beliefs that are supported by the first one. For instance, one would naively expect that those who support animal rights would be far more likely to oppose abortion than those who reject the notion of animal rights; conversely, those who oppose abortion should be much more likely to accept animal rights. This is because to accept animal rights (or fetus rights), one must have a more expansive conception of what sorts of beings have rights than those who reject animal rights (or fetus rights)—and because fetuses and animals seem to share most of the same morally relevant properties (e.g., they are both sentient, but neither are intelligent). I am not saying that the existence of animal rights entails that fetuses have rights, or vice versa (there are some differences between fetuses and animals); I am only saying that, if animals have rights, it is much more likely that fetuses do, and vice versa. Thus, if people’s political beliefs generally have cognitive explanations, we should expect a very strong correlation between being pro-life and being pro-animal-rights. But in fact, what we observe is exactly the opposite.

Some clustering of logically unrelated beliefs could be explained cognitively—for instance, by the hypothesis that some people tend to be good, in general, at getting to the truth (because they are rational, intelligent, etc.) So suppose that it is true both that affirmative action is just and that abortion is morally permissible. These issues are logically unrelated to each other; however, if some people are in general good at getting to the truth, then those who believe one of these propositions would be more likely to believe the other.

But note that, on this hypothesis, we would not expect the existence of an opposite cluster of beliefs. That is, suppose that liberal beliefs are, in general, true, and that this explains why there are many people who generally embrace this cluster of beliefs. (Thus, affirmative action is just, abortion is permissible, welfare programs are good, capital punishment is bad, human beings are seriously damaging the environment, etc.) Why would there be a significant number of people who tend to embrace the opposite beliefs on all these issues? It is not plausible to suppose that there are some people who are in general drawn toward falsity. Even if there are people who are not very good at getting to the truth (they are stupid, or irrational, etc.), their beliefs should be, at worst, unrelated to the truth; they should not be systematically directed away from the truth. Thus, while there could be a ‘true cluster’ of political beliefs, the present consideration strongly suggests that neither the liberal nor the conservative belief-cluster is it.

On the other hand, perhaps some of the clusters aren't quite as unrelated as they seem. In small communities, economics can be a way to exert social control. And I don't mean that in necessarily a bad way. In many ways, communities are much better disbursers of charity than the government; they have the local information to determine who is needy and who needs some strong encouragement to get a job, take the baby to the doctor, and mow their lawn. As anyone who has had to move in with their parents after a financial reversal can attest, Mom is an excellent social worker--it's absolutely astonishing how fast you get your life back together when you have to sit down with her at the dinner table every night.

Small communities are also extremely attuned to property rights, because things like property lines matter to them in ways that they don't matter to city dwellers; conversely, they have a lot less shared space relative to private space. Those core beliefs about things like property rights and work arguably build up into something akin to the Republican economic agenda.

Comments (50)

"Specifically, the anger and resentment triggered in the culture wars bleed into the realm of economics."--Publius

wouldn't "Specifically, the anger and resentment triggered in the culture wars bleed into the realm of things financial."-- be, way, more accurate?

I have always found the argument that "working-class" people must be victims of "false consciousness" if they support policies which do not "favor labor" to be unbelievably condescending and puerile.

I do not personally favor a policy requiring all Americans to become my chattel slaves. This policy would greatly advance my interests economically, but somehow I find non-economic reasons to oppose it. Am I a victim of false consciousness? Or am I a person attempting to discern the right or just policy, regardless of whether it can be said to advance my immediate economic interests?

News flash: there is no such thing as false consciousness. There are merely persons who do not agree with you and do not like the things you like or think the thoughts you think, and their consciousness is 100% as valid as yours.

Exactly Brian!

I seldom vote my pure interest. I vote on what I think is right. And i think a large portion of the electorate is the same.

I grew up in the heart of one of the reddest areas in the red state of NC and worked jobs in the textile mills there. People there tended to be fundamentally against unions even though it might have helped them economically. The reason was their world view that the "right" thing to do was to show up to work and take what was offered or find another job.

There was a strong independent streak in that area of the state which was generally anti-government including taking govt support. This obvioulsly did not apply to everyone, but it definitely applied to a large portion of the population and income was not typically the deciding factor.

I think the number of people who vote what they think is right (regardless of their self interest) far outnumber the group that only votes their self interest.

"But what is irrational is for working class Americans to support Republican economic policies themselves. It’s one thing to support the Republican Party, but it’s quite another to support its regressive, anti-work, pro-wealth economic policies on the merits. If working class Republicans were acting rationally, they should at least advocate for more populist economic policies within the confines of the party."


It's quite impressive that someone could pack so much nonsense into so brief a passage. The most obviously fatuous assertion is that conservative economic policies are "anti-work." One of the chief aims of conservatives has been to reduce marginal income tax rates to encourage work. Maybe one could reasonably oppose such tax cuts in the interests of "equity," but one one cannot reasonably oppose them as somehow inimical to work.

Just as misguided, though, is the claim that if people only understood their own interests properly, they would support the sort of "populist economic policies" that John Edwards has been pushing for years. Even without any formal training in economics, many Americans understand that government employees don't have much incentive to hold costs down or maintain a high quality of service. Most people who have dealt with the Post Office or the INS, or who have read about the Big Dig and the abuse of government credit cards, understand that bigger government means more corruption and waste.

Thomas Frank, John Edwards, Barak Obama and others are evidently puzzled by the fact that ordinary Americans are somewhat less sanguine than they are about the benefits of increased government control of their lives. But it isn't the ordinary American who is deluded--the ordinary American has a good deal more common sense than his effete liberal critics.

Shorter isocrates:

John Edwards is GAY!

Well, I feel compelled to add that "working class" Americans might favor Republican policies that seem inimical to their economic interests not only because these voters sense that the policies are right or just, but because theya re aspirational.

Is it not a fundamental component of the American conciousness that your children will have a better life than you do? While the voter in question may or may not believe that (s)he will accumulate enough wealth for a policy to have a psoitive persoanl effect, (s)he may well hope (if not believe) that these policies will favor his or her children.

Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.

Well, I feel compelled to add that "working class" Americans might favor Republican policies that seem inimical to their economic interests not only because these voters sense that the policies are right or just, but because theya re aspirational.

Is it not a fundamental component of the American conciousness that your children will have a better life than you do? While the voter in question may or may not believe that (s)he will accumulate enough wealth for a policy to have a psoitive persoanl effect, (s)he may well hope (if not believe) that these policies will favor his or her children.

Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.

Sean Oxendine at the Race42008 blog recently had two posts on the BitterGate flap that reversed the bias in the mainstream media commentariat on these matters. He pointed out that our urbano-centric media love to think that conservative rural citizens are duped into voting against their economic interests -- that is, against the "soak the rich" populism preached by democrats -- because of their anti-abortion, anti-gay, racist, and gun-totin' ways.

He counters that type of media group-think by saying that red-state rural conservatives fundamentally do care about issues like Guns, Gays, God, and, er, Gynecology -- just as do their citified leftist brethren. Only the mainstream media never find anything wrong or strange about favoring tight gun control, gay marriage, religious faith, and loose abortion regulations: The right side of these issues is "understood" from the outset, wink-wink, nudge-nudge.

I'd link to Sean's blog posts, but Megan's site is oppressing my ability to post URLs... *sob*

If you look at political campaigns you would have to come to the conclusion that whether or not false consciousness exists, politicians think it exists.

In many ways, communities are much better disbursers of charity than the government;

It's an extremely unsurprising result that public charity crowds out private charity on a community wide level; the more that government does, the less people feel a need for private charity. What may be more surprising to many is that those who state that they oppose spending on public charity and taxes donate and volunteer considerably more to private charity, (even if one excludes religious donations.) This is not necessarily obvious; there are, after all, some people who favor strong spending on both, or who make private donations because they feel that public support is not at the level that they would want.

Is it really that obvious that "more equitable tax codes or more labor-friendly legislation/regulation" would benefit working class republicans? (Leaving aside how loaded using the adjective "more equitable" rather than "more progressive", which is what I assume Publius meant).

If you assume that voters will (or should) pursue their own economic self-interest at the polls, even at the expense of their moral values, then the lower and lower-middle class opposition to affirmative action and open borders immigration becomes a lot easier to understand.

If I'm a highschool educated worker (or less) who doesn't work in a factory, I can't be sure whether "more labor-friendly legislation" will help me or not. It might just drive the jobs out of my county, or I might not be connected enough to get into the union.[*] I can be pretty sure that open borders immigration isn't a great boon to me, however.

[*] It should also be noted that the current frontrunning piece of "union-friendly legislation" is the card-check program, which would allow the unionization of people who are currently voting against becoming a union shop in secret ballots. If I'm not willing to vote in a secret union ballot to unionize my own plant, why would I vote in a presidential election to unionize everyone else's?

Academics (and quasi-academics, like Obama) and the angry rich will decide what policies are perfect for the working class, use negative and devise rhetoric to sell it to them, then denounce the working class for not 'getting it' when they don't buy-in.

Always blame the customer.

The importnat thing is that no matter what happens, no actual working class people are to be listened to or consulted in any way.

Suppose you have two young people in a small town with limited economic options. The one who values economic advancement will move to the city, where there are more jobs and other opportunities. The one who values small-town life will stay put.

Twenty years later, the one who moved to the city wonders why the one who stayed behind places less emphasis on economic issues. Doesn't the question answer itself? If people in small towns were driven primarily by economic motivations, they would have left. But they didn't, which means that they really value small-town culture in ways that city dwellers don't.

This isn't an entirely clean division. Plenty of people would like to value both things, and they may feel torn when it isn't possible to do so. But ultimately, everyone has to decide which predominates. People don't stick by small towns in hard times just because they can't imagine any other option.

To rickm: I already know what "non-sequitur" means. I do not require an example.

"In many respects, this week is an ideal one for the book's release, as the content of "political news" over the last week or so illustrates quite vividly several of the book's themes.

There was virtually no discussion, at least on any of the news shows to which I was exposed, of the obviously consequential revelations of the President's direct involvement in the creation of America's torture regime. Instead, the vast bulk of attention was paid to depicting Barack Obama as an effete, elitist, deceptive enemy of the Regular Guy -- exactly the way that every national Democratic politician in recent memory has inevitably been depicted (including Hillary Clinton, particularly when the media and the Right thought last year that she would be the nominee).

Our elections are dominated by the same tired personality script, trotted out over and over and over. Democrats and liberals -- no matter how poor their upbringing, no matter how self-made they are, no matter how egalitarian their policies -- are the freakish, out-of-touch elitists who despise the values of the Regular Americans. Right-wing leaders -- no matter how extravagantly rich they are by virtue of other people's money, no matter how insulated their lives are, no matter how indifferent their policies are to the vast rich/poor gap -- are the normal, salt-of-the-earth Regular Folk. These petty, cliched storylines drown out every meaningful consideration and dictate our election outcomes, and they are deployed automatically.

It doesn't matter what the candidates actually say or do. The establishment press just waits for the right episode and then reflexively and eagerly fills in the gaps in the shallow script -- the script with which they are intimately familiar and which serves as their only framework for talking about and understanding political disputes."--GG
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/04/14/gah/index.html

Thomas Frank, John Edwards, Barak Obama and others are evidently puzzled by the fact that ordinary Americans are somewhat less sanguine than they are about the benefits of increased government control of their lives. But it isn't the ordinary American who is deluded--the ordinary American has a good deal more common sense than his effete liberal critics.

I'm reminded of an article by Walter Mead on Jacksonian America. Some appropriate quotes:

Jacksonians tend to see representative rather than direct institutions as necessary evils, and to believe that governments breed corruption and inefficiency the way picnics breed ants. Every administration will be corrupt; every Congress and legislature will be, to some extent, the plaything of lobbyists. Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it’s probably a fly.


It is perversion rather than corruption that most troubles Jacksonians: the possibility that the powers of government will be turned from the natural and proper object of supporting the well-being of the majority toward oppressing the majority in the service of an economic or cultural elite


In public controversies, the side that is always giving you reasons why something can’t be done, and is endlessly telling you that the popular view isn’t sufficiently "sophisticated" or "nuanced" — that is the side that doesn’t want you to know what it is doing, and it is not to be trusted.

But I guess that's just false consciousness.

But of course, the thing runs the other way: liberals reject things merely because conservatives believe them.

What are the three greatest examples of this?

I know I have a knee-jerk response to Republicans who pretend to be libertarians, but that's my own hang up (admitting one has a problem is the first step to recovery).

One more thought on people voting against their alleged economic interests: why is there no head-scratching when rich statists do it? People of wealth who favor soak-the-rich taxes (or oppose "tax cuts for the rich") are treated like heroes in the media, even though they seem to be acting just as much against their personal economic interests as people of lesser means who have the opposite views. It's almost as if the ideological playing field isn't level.

The truth is that the vast majority of voters on both sides are values voters, not self-interest voters. And if that changes, it will herald the end of the republic, for reasons understood since Plato.

Maybe workers would prefer to tie their ability to make a better life for themselves and their family to their own abilities and efforts instead of politicians that can arbitrarily take what people have (the rich are merely the first in line) and "give" it back to those who act and vote correctly (and to those who give big campaign contributions of course).

Essentially, populism is a mild form of slavery... instead of working for themselves, people are forced to work for politicians.

zomg PJ!

Did you really just compare poor people voting against their economic interests with rich people voting against their economic interests, and they expressed wonderment as to why the former gets attention but the latter doesn't?

Maybe, just maybe, its because rich people aren't poor, and they don't need financial help.


DUMBEST COMMENTS EVAH.

"It’s one thing to support the Republican Party, but it’s quite another to support its regressive, anti-work, pro-wealth economic policies on the merits"

Please tell me you're joking when you refer to this remark as "smart". IIRC, fallacious reasoning methods were covered in the freshman or sophmore year of high school. Perhaps Publius should look up the term "begging the question".

"For instance, one would naively expect that those who support animal rights would be far more likely to oppose abortion than those who reject the notion of animal rights; conversely, those who oppose abortion should be much more likely to accept animal rights"

Huh? Note to Publius - don't dump your friends or anything, but try to spend more time with people willing to tell you "that's the dumbest thing I ever heard".

I agree with several posters above - why is it considered irrational for an individual to support policies that are against his economic interests?

I can think of a raft of programs that would benefit me personally but that would not benefit the country - and hence that I would not support (e.g. rack up larger deficits today and transfer financial burdens to future generations)

Only if we assume that individuals inhabit an economically calculating and self-interest deterministic system does the Frank argument make sense

One point that hasn't gotten enough attention is that Frank's argument works both ways. PJ hints at this point, but I think it better to mount a frontal attack of Frank's reasoning, pointing out that, by its own terms, it demonstrates that everyone values social issues higher than economic issues. Frank's absurdity is in concluding that rural voters are uniquely prone to this "weakness."

Consider: If Frank is correct re rural voters' true preferences on economic policy (admittedly a strong caveat), there would be overwhelming support for a Democratic party that adopted a center-right stance on social issues and a populist (or progressive) stance on economic matters. If this is so, urban Dems' failure to moderate their liberal positions on social issues is a significant obstance to the enactment of liberal economic policy. Urban Dems, if Frank is representative, realize this, but are unwilling to jettison their liberal social positions for the sake of a broad-based economically populist/progressive agenda. What does this imply, if not that urban Dems value liberal social issues more than they value liberal economic policy. The question then becomes, Where does Frank get off telling rural voters that they should abandon their attachment to social issues? Admittedly, he wouldn't have sold as many books had he done anything other than preach to the choir (i.e., by consoling his audience - mostly urban Dems - with tales of the baleful effect the incorrigible ignorance of rural voters has had on Democratic electoral viability), but it would have been a book worth reading.

Neither Publius' nor Michael's comment was particular smart. They both make a bunch of false/arbitrary assumptions and then marvel at how illogical people are when they don't make the same assumptions.

People who support gun control, welfare, and abortion rights may very well have a coherent story for why they are related. Claiming they aren't is absurd. Different people have different belief systems, most of which will be "illogical" to others because you have to start somewhere and that somewhere is always based on an assumption.

For example, welfare and abortion rights are both related in that they allow for people to control their procreation... welfare to help those who choose to have children and abortion rights to help those who choose not to.

I can probably make up stories for other issues, too. For example, gun control and welfore: povery is the source of crime, so welfare helps reduce crime by reducing poverty and gun control helps reduce crime by taking guns away from people. And with more welfare/less povery, the need for guns goes away.

Now, people often believe things that are wrong (for example, that reducing guns reduces crime) or debatable (reducing poverty reduces crime). But that doesn't mean they are "unrelated" or that the voter is just voting for them because some evil "Other" supports the opposite.

There are a lot of very smart rednecks out there who are rightly skeptical of government interference and understand that high taxes and big government are bad for everyone. They may not personally benefit from government policies, but many of them don't want government handouts even if they help them.

On other hand, you'll probably find farmers out there who've learned how to take advantage of farm subsidies... though a lot of those end up going to large agriculture firms or wealthy city dwellers who own farm land as a financial instrument of some sort.

Also, Democrats will enaact policies that favor immigrants and minorities so for a rural, white working class person, these policies may not help them.

Now, the unfortunately reality is that both Republicans and Democrats are addicted to spending, so neither party really gives us small government... but Democrats at least talk about doing things like massively increasing government involvment in health care, expanding social programs, etc...

And by the way... rich people who favor "soak the rich" policies probably have enough money that they don't care or have their money sheltered so the policies they endorse won't actually soak them. And a lot of these "soak the rich" policies end up including a lot of people who aren't really rich, including middle class people living in big cities and small business owners who may be struggling even though a lot of money moves through their business.

(Why do I still comment here? Every thread seems to turn into a Leftie hate thread... where they hate on everyone else. I guess I'm a masochist. Click for a summary of where these threads go....)


But of course, the thing runs the other way: liberals reject things merely because conservatives believe them.

Offhand, I can't think of any. Republicans, if not conservatives, are tribal, rather than policy-oriented. They answer poll questions based on what their team wants them to say.

It's also why so much of their argumentation is ad hominem.

Or, another example. Democrats in the grass roots oppose the unitary executive. Republicans in the grass roots support it only for Republicans, as the Clinton impeachment demonstrated.

Hard to believe all these hicks and rubes just don't understand that it is in their economic interest to live off the work and property of others, rather than their own.

Democrats in the grass roots oppose the unitary executive. Republicans in the grass roots support it only for Republicans, as the Clinton impeachment demonstrated.

Do you know what unitary executive means? What does it have to do with the Clinton impeachment?

"Republicans, if not conservatives, are tribal, rather than policy-oriented. They answer poll questions based on what their team wants them to say."

The example of an ad hominem argument should come after you bring the point up, not before.

Also, if you don't have a zero-sum model of the economy in your head, it's not at all obvious that a policy that's in your immediate self-interest is in your long-term interest.

In fact, it's quite reasonable that the middle class would be more pro-growth than the rich and more willing to trade other benefits (environmental, and perhaps even income equity) for a higher rate of economic growth.

Thanks for your constructive approach, rickm, but the "playing field" comment might have served as a clue that I was attempting sarcasm re the media.

My point is that by and large people of every economic class favor the policies they believe will be good for the polity as a whole, rather than the policies that best serve their own economic interests. To me that seems like good citizenship, an attitude to be encouraged, and not discouraged or ridiculed, regardless of one's views as to the "correct" policies.

The puzzlement of the chattering classes and the frustration of the redistributionists are fed by the assumption that the opinions of the non-rich are and ought to be for sale. That assumption is not only unflattering to all involved but wrong as well.

Democrats in the grass roots oppose the unitary executive.

Yes, that’s why so many of them spoke up when FDR opened up every piece of international mail without any statutory authorization.

"For instance, one would naively expect that those who support animal rights would be far more likely to oppose abortion than those who reject the notion of animal rights; conversely, those who oppose abortion should be much more likely to accept animal rights"

Huh? Note to Publius - don't dump your friends or anything, but try to spend more time with people willing to tell you "that's the dumbest thing I ever heard".

I absolutely agree, IMO people who oppose abortion generally do so because they believe that abortion is the taking of an innocent human life. To oppose abortion is to put a value on human life.

IMO People who support animal “rights” (as opposed to animal welfare) generally do so because they believe that there is no moral difference between a human being and some other animal (or in many cases that human beings are morally inferior). To support animal “rights” is to IMO degrade the value of human life by saying that “human beings are no better than insects or rodents.”

That’s just one reason why being opposed to abortion doesn’t mean that one is necessarily in support of animal “rights.”

Also, if you don't have a zero-sum model of the economy in your head, it's not at all obvious that a policy that's in your immediate self-interest is in your long-term interest.

Agreed, health care is a great example. We could probably insure every American for a fraction of what we spend overall on health care but since the way that costs are controlled is by limiting advancements in technology and new procedures, in the long run we’d pay a steeper price by smothering a lot of future innovation in the crib and losing the benefits from those advancements.

We could pass a law tomorrow that required every employer in my State to provide four weeks PTO to their employees but we’d pay a price in higher levels of unemployment as well as lower wages and benefits because this “pro-worker” legislation just made it too costly to provide jobs for more people.

We could raise the minimum wage to $10 an hour which would have been great when I was working in a grocery store as a kid in high school. But it would have made it much more difficult for me to get that entry level office-job that paid less that $10 an hour in college but gave the experience on my resume that ultimately lead to the much better paying job I have today.

Actually come to think of it, Publius has it exactly backwards, it is working class people who vote Democrat who are ultimately the ones who voting against their economic self-interest. The only people who should be voting Democrat are people who cash an unearned check from the government or have a job working for the Nanny State.

I suppose as the official dusky-hued red-state rube I'm morally obligated to post a comment.

But what is irrational is for working class Americans to support Republican economic policies themselves. It’s one thing to support the Republican Party, but it’s quite another to support its regressive, anti-work, pro-wealth economic policies on the merits. If working class Republicans were acting rationally, they should at least advocate for more populist economic policies within the confines of the party.

That's possibly the stupidest thing I've read today, and I read a lot of stupid stuff.

I am a working American, with a middle-class salary and a pickup truck with six digits on the odometer. What, exactly does the Democratic party offer me?

My taxes will go up. Tax breaks for liberal hedge fund managers will continue.

These taxes will go to fund programs that I'll never benefit from.

My economic and personal life will be regulated more. There will be laws about what I can buy, sell, say, smoke, and do.

I can see who will benefit from these programs, but it won't be me. Those who are poor and work will get nothing. Those who are poor and don't work will get plasma TVs. There will be a million more jobs in the welfare-industrial complex, which is good if you're a well-educated, well-off white woman. There will be more tax breaks for hedge fund managers and more "disaster relief" bills designed to rebuild the coastal mansions of billionaires.

And me? I'll get up at 4am, put my uniform on, go to work, and foot the bill for it all.

Oh hell no.

Fact is, there is a very coherent narrative going on here. Liberals (though not the Democrat rank and file) believe that an anointed elite should run the lives of the rubes. Americans (Democrat and Republican) believe that our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

"The puzzlement of the chattering classes and the frustration of the redistributionists are fed by the assumption that the opinions of the non-rich are and ought to be for sale. That assumption is not only unflattering to all involved but wrong as well. "

I was thinking this as well. I almost feel a little sad for the redistributionist. It is like they are saying

"Look at all the material things that I will give you. Why won't you love me!?!?"

"Non frivolous point: Publius is particularly smart here:

But what is irrational is for working class Americans to support Republican economic policies themselves. It’s one thing to support the Republican Party, but it’s quite another to support its regressive, anti-work, pro-wealth economic policies on the merits."


I don't think this is smart at all. It implicitly takes the position that everyone is as short-sighted and selfish as Publius since without those presumptions you cannot assert that Republican economics are worse for the working class. Essentially the trade off between these policies is future vs now. We can rearrange the economy to grant a small level of additional relief to those financially challenged today, in return for guarateeing that far fewer of their grandchildren will escape the same description. Throw in that under more controlled economies the circumstances of those remaining poor will be worse than otherwise.

It doesn't seem that tough a decision. Maybe that's why we're contantly being told how much worse things are despite the great evidence to the contrary. Otherwise people might realize how successful the economy has been even for those in the working classes.

The grand irony here is that a libertarian economics writer has posted something which caused the libertarian economics readers to all cry out that people are not just rational self-maximizers.

I'm one of those posters, and I agree: just because a policy might raise someone else's taxes, rather than my own, does not mean I favor that policy. The fact that favoring it would be in my economic self-interest, and that I still disagree with the policy, does not make me a victim of a culture war.

It is not plausible to suppose that there are some people who are in general drawn toward falsity. Even if there are people who are not very good at getting to the truth (they are stupid, or irrational, etc.), their beliefs should be, at worst, unrelated to the truth; they should not be systematically directed away from the truth.

Not necessarily: consider religious belief, and general belief in the supernatural. For the sake of argument, let's agree that these are deeply irrational (and more to the point, false) modes of belief. The people who are drawn toward literal belief in the Bible are also more likely to believe in ghosts or ESP: people who engage in magical thinking are likely to come to similar incorrect conclusions about superficially unrelated phenomena. If you hold a false particular belief due to a general faulty mode of reasoning, the contagion will spread to other areas as well, creating a cluster of false beliefs.

Essentially the trade off between these policies is future vs now. We can rearrange the economy to grant a small level of additional relief to those financially challenged today, in return for guarateeing that far fewer of their grandchildren will escape the same description.

Bogus. The liberal prescription is that we rearrange the economy to benefit liberals now, in return for it benefitting liberals in the future.

Consider the banking industry. Down in the bottom floors, the slave pits, America's Patels and Kims and Changs and Nguyens toil, sixteen hour days, back to back. They sleep under their desks at work just as they slept under their desks in school.

After years of labor, making their liberal plutocrat boss rich, making the liberals in government rich, and making the liberal landlord rich, the liberals decide the workforce is not "diverse" enough.

So a diversity program is initiated. Michelle Obama gets close to half a million a year to run it, and the conclusion is that in the name of diversity Patel, Kim, Nguyen are fired and Chang is demoted, and the boss's daughter is made managing director.

We in Middle America ask ourselves: What benefit is there here for me?

secret asian man wrote my post for me:

I am a working American, with a middle-class salary and a pickup truck with six digits on the odometer. What, exactly does the Republican party offer me?

My taxes will not go down. Tax breaks for conservative hedge fund managers will continue.

These taxes will go to fund programs that I'll never benefit from.

My economic and personal life will be regulated more. There will be laws about what I can buy, sell, say, see and do.

I can see who will benefit from these programs, but it won't be me.

Edits mine.

The framing of "Liberals" vs. "Americans" was also a nice touch. Karl Rove would approve.

To make your citation of the Gettysburg Address complete, we're now at elevenscore and 12 years ago, if you round up.

liberalrob:

I'm trying to find these Republican hedge fund managers you mean

Hedge fund managers that donate to Democrats at a 4:1 ratio.
Liberal NY politicians who keep getting tax breaks for hedge funds?
Investment banks and dot-coms who donate to Democrats?

Barack Obama just gave a talk on Billionaire's row, the wealthiest street on Earth. It's full of Democrats. The richest zip codes in America? Full of Democrats.

Seeing a pattern here?

That is, suppose that liberal beliefs are, in general, true, and that this explains why there are many people who generally embrace this cluster of beliefs. (Thus, affirmative action is just, abortion is permissible, welfare programs are good, capital punishment is bad, human beings are seriously damaging the environment, etc.) Why would there be a significant number of people who tend to embrace the opposite beliefs on all these issues? It is not plausible to suppose that there are some people who are in general drawn toward falsity.

There is a sound basis for clustering of beliefs opposite to "truth finder" clustered beliefs. Tradition is a valid and useful mechanism for maintaining useful beliefs. Not much changes over time, so what worked before usually works now. Those more likely to adhere to tradition are less likely to accept new ideas even if the arguments supporting those ideas are good. They are not necessarily less capable of perceiving the truth so much as they have a higher threshold for abandoning beliefs that worked. People with less regard for tradition are more likely to accept new good ideas and new bad ideas.

It is probably a better mechanism for explaining clustering of unrelated beliefs to seperate people into traditionalists and innovators than to seperate them into ignoramuses and truth seekers. First, it is probably more accurate. Second, it is much less likely to start a fist-fight.

"Only if we assume that individuals inhabit an economically calculating and self-interest deterministic system does the Frank argument make sense"

Well, it is a necessary assumption of capitalism. I'll remember we don't live in one of those the next time free markets come up on this site.

Second, it is much less likely to start a fist-fight.

Well, dang--there goes this evening's entertainment!

Was this post really by Megan? She seemed to have a clearer understanding of economics than to say that Publius was "particularly smart" to argue that it is irrational to favor one's long term, overall interests! Publius thinks that the average person should fall for an inconsistent, partial equilibrium economic model where everyone simply grabs what they can grab today, without thinking about tomorrow or about anyone else.

Nelson pointed out one huge flaw in this 'rational' approach - if I exercise my "right" to grab what my neighbor has, what is to stop her from exercising her "right" to take whatever she wants from me? In the end, no one is protected under this system (except politicians and the elite that make the decisions, but even they are favored only as long as they can retain power).

Several people have pointed out that voters may think about the overall good, rather than only considering their own interests. I would argue that considering the overall good is an example of a cooperative equilibrium in game theory - taking all you can get may seem better, short term, but only in a partial-equlibrium framework.

The average person has figured out that, long term, this doesn't lead to good solutions (don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs, etc.). Mike Earl pointed out that the zero-sum framework just doesn't work very well, and Thorley Winston gave many good examples of the difference between narrow short term benefits and long term superior outcomes.

Megan - do you really agree with Publius that the only 'rational' policy is to take the money and run?

"Those core beliefs about things like property rights and work arguably build up into something akin to the Republican economic agenda."

OK, I re-read the last part of what Megan posted, and she clearly does understand that rationality involves more than just narrow, short-sighted economic opportunism. My faith is restored, and I'll try to read more carefully next time.


And Earnest Iconoclast - please don't stop posting here. Your contributions are always valuable.

The promise of "economic self-interest" in voting relies on the assumption that you trust the person making the promise to deliver. At the end of the day, though, most working class voters aren't stupid. These promises are being delivered by people who refer to them as "sheeple" or "flyover country" or "the lumpen proletariat" and exhibit a pretty consistent disdain for their values and way of life. Most working class voters aren't out for free stuff. Sure, like anyone else, they'll take it when its offered. But, more often than not, they do have the good sense to realize that these promises of free stuff are bogus and being offered by people who don't even particularly like them.

Offhand, I can't think of any. people are tribal, rather than policy-oriented. They answer poll questions based on what their team wants them to say.

There, fixed.

Anyone who has seen pictures of an anti-war protest will know better than to think that Liberals/Democrats are all rational and policy oriented and not tribal.

I have always found the argument that "working-class" people must be victims of "false consciousness" if they support policies which do not "favor labor" to be unbelievably condescending and puerile.

Excellent point. I agree 100%.

Not only is it condescending to call someone's agreement to policies that don't support their own economic interest, "false consciousness". But many of these supposed examples of "false consciousness" are quite questionable as examples of economic policies that supposedly hurt those who support them. For example tax cuts "for the rich" can bring economic benefits to the non-rich.

It's quite impressive that someone could pack so much nonsense into so brief a passage. The most obviously fatuous assertion is that conservative economic policies are "anti-work." One of the chief aims of conservatives has been to reduce marginal income tax rates to encourage work. Maybe one could reasonably oppose such tax cuts in the interests of "equity," but one one cannot reasonably oppose them as somehow inimical to work.

Another excellent comment.

And its not just lower marginal tax rates that are "pro work", things like a greater skepticism of large increase in regulation are also "pro-work".


Copyright © 2008 by The Atlantic Monthly Group. All rights reserved.