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I blame the media

07 Apr 2008 05:40 pm

Glenn Greenwald complains that Barack Obama's various pecadillos are covered more than John Yoo because journalists are a bunch of arrogant lightweights:

Needless to say, these serious and accomplished political journalists are only focusing on these stupid and trivial matters because this is what the Regular Folk care about. They speak for the Regular People, and what the Regular People care about is not Iraq or the looming recession or health care or lobbyist control of our government or anything that would strain the brain of these reporters. What those nice little Regular Folk care about is whether Obama is Regular Folk just like them, whether he can bowl and wants to gorge himself with junk food.

Our nation's coddled, insulated journalist class reaches these conclusions about what Regular Folk think using the most self-referential, self-absorbed thought process imaginable. The proof that the Regular People are interested in these things is that . . . the journalists themselves chatter about it endlessly.

Daniel Drezner responds:

To me, this indicates the following:

1) Comparing NEXIS searches of events where the media cycle has yet to play out with events where the media cycle has played out is really disingenuous way of making one's point;

2) There are more press mentions of an event when the target of the media inquiry actually responds to the press. To my knowledge, John Yoo has said nothing since the terror memo was leaked, and the Bush administration has clammed up as well. Barack Obama, on the other hand, clearly did respond to the Jeremiah Wright business, leading to multiple news cycles about that issue;

3) Shockingly, the press appears to be more interested in events that determine the future (i.e., who will be the next president?) than in events that look back at the past. [Isn't that a slanted way of contrasting these events?-ed. Compared to Greenwald's slant? No, not really.];

4) Glenn Greenwald might be a good blogger/columnist, but he's not that great at social science.

For a guy who works in the media, he doesn't know much about his profession, either.

Start with Barack Obama. Americans care more about him than John Yoo because, well, John Yoo isn't running for president. Indeed, if one in ten Americans had even heard of John Yoo, I would be shocked, because most people don't care about minor government functionaries, no matter how pivotal their role may be in screwing up the world. I live in Washington DC, the throbbing heart of political trivia, and my sister works for HUD. Nonethelss, I had to look up the name of Alphonso Jackson, the HUD secretary, when allegations surfaced that he had grossly misused his office to help friends. After being forced to step down, he garnered slightly more Nexis hits than John Yoo's name in the last month. But both lost out to Jamie Lynn Spears, who ooh! might be secretly engaged.

This is not because journalists are insulated from their readers. It is because readers buy more papers with headlines about Jamie Lynn Spears than they do with headlines about Alphonso Jackson or John Yoo, since as I think I just mentioned, they have never heard of either person. You can lead a consumer to stories of vital national importance, but you cannot make him care. You can just make him pass over your paper in favor of the Enquirer.

It's all very well to say that journalists should cover the more serious stories, and bloggers like Glenn Greenwald, and maybe occasionally me, make such complaints all the time. But even really successful bloggers on things like economic and foreign policy have fewer daily readers than a struggling local paper in a moderately sized midwestern city. Now imagine those readers evenly distributed across a nation of 300 million, and then ask yourself why their concerns do not headline every paper. As well to wonder why they aren't all carrying stories on fire response times in the Syracuse, NY area.

Obviously, I think John Yoo's adventures are a matter of slightly greater national importance. (As indeed do our nation's media, who--aside from the Syracuse Post-Standard--ran virtually no coverage of the topic over the last month.) But voters can't do much about John Yoo now, other than choose a different type of president. Maybe they should do that by eagerly scanning Obama and Clinton and McCain's platforms--though I am at a loss to think how one might have divined a John Yoo from the anodyne folia of the Bush 2000 campaign. As far as anyone can tell, however, this is not how voters decide. Believe me, nearly every journalist in DC wants to write in-depth stories on foreign policy questions, and nearly every editor in the nation would dearly love to sell them. If there were a millions-deep wellspring of interest in the topic, some enterprising publication would already have tapped it dry.

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Comments (132)

The great unanswerable question: would Drezner and Megan make the same arguments if it was McCain Greenwald was defending? (Answer: Megan, maybe. Drezner, no way. But then, I'm failing to honor the number one rule of talking about Drezner, saying something other than "He's such a nice guy!")

The corollary: would Greenwald actually defend McCain using the same kind of argument to defend Obama? (Answer: very, very unlikely.)

Uhhhhhhhhhh

Saying a question is unanswerable and then immediately answering it... not my proudest moment.

Ummm . . . as I have already announced that the only major party candidate I will consider voting for is Barack Obama, I don't know why you think I'd be more interested in defending McCain.

I think stories about Barack Obama bowling are stupid, and I'm not particularly interested in his minister. But claiming that American political coverage doesn't follow Glenn Greenwald's preferred lines because journalists are lightweights who hate Barack Obama displays profound ignorance of his own industry.

You didn't feel compelled to read the entirety of a 50 word comment?

America is torturing people. A prominent law professor from one of our best schools is writing papers defending and enabling torture. However, people are writing about Obama bowling.


I know you have access to Nexis. You should do a comparison on the coverage of the Yoo torture memo and Ward Churchill.

You didn't feel compelled to read the entirety of a 50 word comment?

You have trained her well.

Meanwhile...Glenn Greenwald? Isn't that like shooting fish in a gun barrel? I say, let him have his sop and hope he doesn't start venting his spleen against anything meaningful.

Most journos seems to be lighweights who are schilling for Obama, but maybe that's just NBC (and various permutations thereof) and the NYT.

There's nothing in Obama for anyone who seriously considers themselves to be a classical liberal or any kind of libertarian. OTOH, there's not much there in McCain or Clinton either.

Rev. Wright, as an individual, is not particularly important - rather, he is part of a patterin in BHO's life - all of his companions, mentors and teachers seem to be rather radical - from his commie father who he never knew (but who's approval he still seems to seek in his book), to his lefty hippie mother, to William Ayers, to his America-bashing wife through to his America and Whitey hating pastor of 20 years - kind of a pattern, no? Mix in the fact that he almost completely avoids actual policy positions as part of his campaign (hope and/or change are not plans) and his uber-liberal Senate ranking, and I think we have a guy well to the left of Governor Dean, albeit a pretty nice, collegial guy. Unlike most Dems/politicians, he's not a dick to his opponents, but he's a hard-core lefty nonetheless.

Mouse: have you changed names again?

Mickslam: I'll pose the same question to you as in the last thread. The Yoo "torture memo" is here.

Please show the part where Yoo defends or enables torture. Or, if that memo is not what you were referring to, please give me a link or something to whatever it is that supports you assertion.

Drezner, April 7:

To my knowledge, John Yoo has said nothing since the terror memo was leaked, and the Bush administration has clammed up as well.

Washington Post, April 2:

Yoo, now a law professor at the University of California at Berkeley, defended the memo in an e-mail yesterday, saying the Justice Department altered its opinions "for appearances' sake." He said his successors "ignored the Department's long tradition in defending the President's authority in wartime."

"Far from inventing some novel interpretation of the Constitution," Yoo wrote, "our legal advice to the President, in fact, was near boilerplate."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/01/AR2008040102213_2.html

Drezner might be a good janitor, but he blows at being a journalist, blogger, social scientist or anything else that requires mental effort. No wonder he was denied tenure.

as I have already announced that the only major party candidate I will consider voting for is Barack Obama

I dunno, Obama could be worse than McCain. The devil you konw, right? That's the libertarian analysis.

How the hell did you completely miss Greenwald's point, that the media pays more attention to Barack Obama's bowling, John Kerry's windsurfing, and George Bush's manliness at being a cowboy than actual issues?


I thought Drezner stopped guestblogging for you.

Megan, Glenn Greenwald is no idiot, and he's perfectly well aware that one of the reasons why torture crimes committed by this administration get less press coverage than Britney Spears is that media outlets are businesses and they get more readers covering Britney than torture. (Your own magazine's current issue comes to mind, cf. The American Prospect.)

Greenwald's point--obvious to all--is that the press has obligations over and beyond making money. It needs to rethink its proclivity to covering drug-addicted celebrities and mocking politicians for non-substantive reasons, like being bad at bowling.

He's urging the media to improve, to serve the country by seriously reporting issues that matter greatly to this country, even though some people don't care. Your lecturing him on the business realities of journalism is plain silly.

I love this post because it points out the false equivalencies horrible people like Greenwald employ all the time in their dishonest attack pieces. Of course, John Yoo and Barack Obama can't be compared, for the very reasons you point out, i.e., Obama's running for president, Yoo's not.

But I am, perhaps, a bit perplexed by your opening sentence where you state that, "Greenwald complains that Barack Obama's various pecadillos [sic] are covered more than John Yoo [sic] because journalists are a bunch of arrogant lightweights."

I understand that bowling a 47 might be considered a "peccadillo." But can you say the same thing about Yoo as the architect of the unprecedented policy of torture that our country embarked upon? Bowling a 47 might be a peccadillo; torturing people is not.

"Believe me, nearly every journalist in DC wants to write in-depth stories on foreign policy questions, and nearly every editor in the nation would dearly love to sell them."--MM

" By the end of episode two, we were lamenting the absence of a revolution to which we could credibly pledge our "Lives, our Fortunes, and our Sacred Honor".--MM

Megan,

what other lies do journo's tell themselves to quell Conscience's mid-night pangs?

con·science (knshns)
n.
1.
a. The awareness of a moral or ethical aspect to one's conduct together with the urge to prefer right over wrong: Let your conscience be your guide.
b. A source of moral or ethical judgment or pronouncement: a document that serves as the nation's conscience.
c. Conformity to one's own sense of right conduct: a person of unflagging conscience.
2. The part of the superego in psychoanalysis that judges the ethical nature of one's actions and thoughts and then transmits such determinations to the ego for consideration.
3. Obsolete Consciousness.
Idiom:
in (all good) conscience
In all truth or fairness.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Middle English, from Old French, from Latin cnscientia, from cnscins, cnscient-, present participle of cnscre, to be conscious of : com-, intensive pref.; see com- + scre, to know; see skei- in Indo-European roots.]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

conscience·less adj.

ThesaurusLegend: Synonyms Related Words AntonymsNoun 1. conscience - motivation deriving logically from ethical or moral principles that govern a person's thoughts and actions
moral sense, scruples, sense of right and wrong
superego - (psychoanalysis) that part of the unconscious mind that acts as a conscience
ethical motive, ethics, morals, morality - motivation based on ideas of right and wrong
small voice, voice of conscience, wee small voice - an inner voice that judges your behavior
sense of duty, sense of shame - a motivating awareness of ethical responsibility
2. conscience - conformity to one's own sense of right conduct; "a person of unflagging conscience"
morality - concern with the distinction between good and evil or right and wrong; right or good conduct
conscientiousness - the quality of being in accord with the dictates of conscience
unconscientiousness - the quality of being willing to ignore the dictates of conscience
3. conscience - a feeling of shame when you do something immoral; "he has no conscience about his cruelty"
shame - a painful emotion resulting from an awareness of inadequacy or guilt
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/conscience

though I am at a loss to think how one might have divined a John Yoo from the anodyne folia of the Bush 2000 campaign

The presence of Dick Cheney. His alarming view of the power of the Presidency was evident in his Iran-Contra dissent. But in 2000, he was just the running mate of the guy you could see yourself having a beer with.

The media has no "responsibility" to anyone. The 1st amendment says that you have freedom of the press (among others). It does not say that the press has to write what you think is important.

What annoys Greenwald is: 1. He doesn't get to control the entire debate (although we could argue about who the media is in the tank for), 2. The mass of people don't agree with him (rightly or wrongly) about what is important enough to be worthy of coverage, and finally 3. A sizable chunk of the population agrees that the president should be allowed to have the power to decide whether or not to torture terrorists (a smaller but not insignificant number thinks it should be allowed period).

Start with Barack Obama. Americans care more about him than John Yoo because, well, John Yoo isn't running for president.

And hence Americans care more about Obama's bowling than about Yoo's legal arguments which facilitated torture by the US government? If Yoo barricaded himself into the Berkeley library and started shooting pedestrians with a high-powered rifle, would Americans care less about this than about Barack Obama trimming his cuticles?

This is silly. Americans paid more attention to the bowling story because 1. there was amusing video footage and 2. America is a debased and illiterate nation of zoned-out morons drooling in front of their monitors, and this goes for the voters and the journalists alike. Since the entire system is corrupt, it's easy when anyone points to one element (viz. Greenwald pointing to journalists) to say they're simply reacting to the other parts of the system, and it's not their fault. But it is, in fact, their fault for running these stories, just as it is the voters' fault that they prefer to read them.

I exaggerate for effect, obviously. Only perhaps 60% of Americans are zoned-out morons drooling in front of their monitors.

The media has no "responsibility" to anyone. The 1st amendment says that you have freedom of the press (among others).

Interestingly, there exist certain duties which are morally binding even though they are not enumerated in the US Constitution or legal code. The Hippocratic oath, honor thy father and mother, and a few others I think.

The press has a morally binding duty to report on stuff that no one wants to read? That's an odd sort of moral obligation.

You think nobody wants to read about torture? Why was Abu Ghraib such a big story then?

You'd think with so many constitutionalists around here there might be a few more people arguing that of course anything that violates the constitution and is illegal as f*ck should be shouted from the rooftops. But whatever, dude's not running for office so who cares.

Remember, if it's already happened then nobody cares. If it might happen we need to spend days and months examining it.

I don't know that they report on Obama's peccadillos at all. Not bowling well, come on, that's a puff piece kind of along the line of the early 20th century candidate wearing an Indian headdress at some campaign event. It says he's game, what we would like to be or invited to be or accredited for even if we can't do the event like the president throwing the first baseball pitch. Peccadillos? How about his not renouncing his warm up speaker calling McCain a "warmonger?" How about his continuing to say McCain is for a '100 year war in Iraq;' it doesn't reflect the original quote; even the liberal Columbia Journalism Review says that.

John Yoo says the 5th and 8th amendment didn't apply to irregular enemy combatants if not US citizens. Offhand I don't think he should be struck by lightning.

Yes, the press does have an obligation.

They have enormously wide latitude to write about politicians without being sued for slander because of the First Amendment. It's almost impossible for a politician to win a lawsuit against the press for writing lies--you have to show "with malice."

The reason why it's next to impossible for a politician to sue a media outlet is because the Supreme Court decided that a truly free press--allowed to criticize our political leaders either fairly or unfairly--is much, much more important than the politician's ability to collect money damages.

The quid pro quo is that the media can say pretty much whatever they want, because a vigorous, inquiring press is essential to a free society. But they have to act in the public's interest--not by publishing celebrity gossip--but by reporting serious issues, like torture, that matter a great deal to our country as a whole.

BladeDoc says,

What annoys Greenwald is:...

Greenwald also appears to be annoyed by the torture, And the unfortunate lack of coverage of how the U.S. administration's torture policies came to be.

Rob,

Did you even read the very first paragraph of the memo?

mickslam

How about his not renouncing his warm up speaker calling McCain a "warmonger?"

I call topic drift. However, John McCain simply is a warmonger:

warmonger
noun
1. (pejorative) someone who advocates war; a militarist

The notion that Obama should distance himself from someone who called McCain a warmonger is ludicrous. It's like saying McCain should distance himself from any adviser who calls Obama a big-government liberal. Except that calling McCain a warmonger is at least accurate.

I can't help but wonder what the libertarian position on torture or warmongering. I surely know what the pseudo-libertarian (i.e., Republican) positions are. But what are the real libertarian positions?

Obama immediately issued a statement saying that McCain is not a warmonger (showing that Obama is not always honest!) and that McCain should not be called one. But he didn't use the word "renounce" or "condemn" in the statement so, since running for president is apparently a year long game of Password, the Obama statement doesn't count.

"It's all very well to say that journalists should cover the more serious stories, and bloggers like Glenn Greenwald, and maybe occasionally me, make such complaints all the time. But even really successful bloggers on things like economic and foreign policy have fewer daily readers than a struggling local paper in a moderately sized midwestern city. Now imagine those readers evenly distributed across a nation of 300 million, and then ask yourself why their concerns do not headline every paper. As well to wonder why they aren't all carrying stories on fire response times in the Syracuse, NY area.

Obviously, I think John Yoo's adventures are a matter of slightly greater national importance. (As indeed do our nation's media, who--aside from the Syracuse Post-Standard--ran virtually no coverage of the topic over the last month.)"

The writing (I can't even begin to guess at the logic) is this horrendous passage is unworthy of the author or, for that matter, any professional journalist working in English.

Here's hoping it's an aberattion.

McArdle should give serious thought to revising the above. What she has now wouldn't pass muster in a freshman comp class at a community college.

Failing that, she should simply explain what she was trying to say. You know - have another go at it.

Sorry to be so blunt, but this is truly a horror of prose, managing to be both clunky and incoherent.

Did you even read the very first paragraph of the memo?

Yes. Executive summary for non-lawywers: if it isn't torture under the US code, it also isn't torture under the Torture Convention. Also, the ICC lacks jurisdiction because the US never ratified the treaty.

Somebody explain to me how this is naked grab for Executive power.

I will look for the other memo tomorrow, but if someone has it to hand, that would be nice.

Megan - Please, I can't find the section in Greenwald's column where he states--or even implies--that "journalists are lightweights who hate Barack Obama". Can you point it out for me?

What kind of an idiot stages a bowling photo op when they can't actually bowl? Seriously, I don't care that he can't bowl - I haven't touched a real bowling ball in about a decade (I don't think that Wii bowling counts) - but Obama claims that his superior "judgment" is one of his best qualifications to be President. I think that photo op showed a serious lack of judgment, though it is not as bad as Kerry's picture in the powder-blue space-bunny suit.

holdfast: you aren't serious, right? Obama has run one of the most amazing political campaigns of recent times and is reshaping the political landscape and you seize on his being caught bowling badly as an proof of his poor (political) judgement! Perhaps he isn't so fantastically insecure and is happy to just turn up and have a go.

Blake is right that Greenwald is questioning the commercial ethic. He probably doesn't realise just how difficult it is to send back this tide--even breaking from the received narrative when you know it is hoey is incredibly hard: in that sense Megan is right. To that end Greenwald should find a different language that is much less dismissive of journalists. If he would do that and lots more people would join Greenwald then there would be a better chance of getting something done.

The real answer is that people should stop receiving their news passively and get alot more of their news and analysis through blogs (and disconnect altogether from broadcast media). I used to get the Guardian newspaper but now refuse but read the same articles on their blog--it is like being in a different world. Not everyone is going to do this but to the extent that people do the situation will become more sane.

I absolutely second the call to completely disconnect from broadcast media. Television news is run by people who are just plain stupid. The characteristics which are rewarded in the TV marketplace have nothing to do with being able to analyze the political world in any kind of intelligent fashion; in fact those characteristics are actively hostile to intelligent analysis. Obama's extraordinary speech on race was generally received intelligently and respectfully in the print media, even by those who disagreed with him. The TV newsmedia responded as usual: by stepping on their tongues, sticking their fingers in their noses and farting.

I often bemoan the lack of coverage of real issues when there's so much time spent covering fluff.

But, then, I recall the all-too-common incidents where journalists tell us things like, oh, the Bush administration wants to reclassify fast food jobs as manufacturing. A story that was completely inaccurate, and stemmed from a very simple example described in a publication, a couple of sentences in plain English, published on plain, easy-to-read paper, and printed online in the usual English alphabet with which journalists are ostensibly familiar.

They can't get sh*t like that right, I don't want them "informing" people on vastly more complex topics any more than we absolutely have to allow them.

booksfoe, My memory is apparently short. Please point out the comments on the recent post 'The Confederate problem' where 'militarist' was a characteristic applid to those who supported Lincoln's war.

My comment: This is post is... dumb.

It's all very well to say that journalists should cover the more serious stories, and bloggers like Glenn Greenwald, and maybe occasionally me, make such complaints all the time.

Gee, that's funny. I read Greenwald exact post as... exactly doing the thing you just said here is "all very well". So if it is, in fact, "all very well", then why did you spend a whole blog post ripping him about it?

Meanwhile, Drezner comes up with a couple simple excuses that most eighth-graders could have come up with. I have a feeling that Mr. Greenwald could have come up with them as well, but Greenwald's point was not to come up with all the petty, self-interested reasons why journalists do a bad job at actual journalism. Greenwald is an outrage driver who seems problems as morally evil and demands change.

And that's really what you find offensive about the man. Here, I hand you the Mickey Kaus Lifetime Achievement Award, given to a blogger (call him "B"), in response to blogger A's post about some topic, writes a post saying:

#1. Blogger A was really shrill, man.
#2. Oh, yeah, I mean, I agree with Blogger A, you know, in theory.
#3. But geez, Blogger A. Really impolite.
#4. Don't forget about all these crappy and stupid reasons why the status quo is the way it is. Sure, they're not *good* reasons. But really, you can't blame people for doing bad things for stupid reasons.
#5. Really, the problem here isn't [topic]. The problem is Blogger A's lack of a tone of resignation, indifference, or abstract meandering.

Anyone who cares already knows about John Yoo's memos. How would further coverage inform anyone? There really just isn't anything new in this memo, and this issue is years old.

What would the stories even really say? A memo is released that says what we all know it said anyway? This isn't even remotely about that.

Gleen Greenwald is clearly just mad that the media isn't following his narrative in this. He continually links the memos to Abu Gharaib, which is ridiculous, and the whole issue is idiotic anyway. So what if John Yoo wrote a theoretical defense of various actions?

It doesn't make him responsible for anything. John Yoo had an opinion, and intepretion of what the law might mean. That's it. Glenn's entire approach to condemning Yoo for war crimes stems from his conflation of writing a theoretical memo to "authorizing" war crimes themselves. Not only that, but he then assumes that these war crimes occurred. I mean, wah?

How is this nonsense any more or less ridiculous that what Glenn alleges about Yoo's actions? Glenn is criminalizing legal opinions now, and he's doing with incoherent statements like "used the law as his instrument to authorize criminality." What the hell does that mean? If he's using the law, how is it criminal?

Glenn imagines himself the supreme and final authority on what the law is. He doesn't really argue how Yoo's argument are incorrect, he just rants and raves about how the fact he even suggested them is not only an affront to the law but illegal. Wow. Note to self: Don't discuss the law with Glenn, he might accuse me of breaking it for doing so.

Glenn just wants this story to repeat in the news until the American people finally share his indignation. That hasn't been forthcoming (and won't be), and that's why he's so upset.

Re: Teh Torture and Yoo (if we're permitted to discuss), good stuff here.

Believe me, nearly every journalist in DC wants to write in-depth stories on foreign policy questions, and nearly every editor in the nation would dearly love to sell them.

hahahahahaha ROTFLMAO.....

wait, you were being serious?

The funniest thing about this blog post is that the second paragraph that McArdle cites from Greenwald's article:


Our nation's coddled, insulated journalist class reaches these conclusions about what Regular Folk think using the most self-referential, self-absorbed thought process imaginable. The proof that the Regular People are interested in these things is that . . . the journalists themselves chatter about it endlessly.

describes her reasoning, exactly, later on in this post:


This is not because journalists are insulated from their readers. It is because readers buy more papers with headlines about Jamie Lynn Spears than they do with headlines about Alphonso Jackson or John Yoo, since as I think I just mentioned, they have never heard of either person. You can lead a consumer to stories of vital national importance, but you cannot make him care.

I dunno, maybe the National Enquirer is popular because its reporters do actual reporting rather than spending their time justifying their own laziness. I never thought I'd say this, but maybe the writers at The Atlantic could take a few lessons from them.

Torture is abhorent, but to me, and I think to Greenwald, the question of our basic civil liberties is the key issue raised by Yoo's memo. I take Article I, Section 9, of the Constitution (guaranteeing habeas corpus rights) and the Sixth Amendment (guaranteeing a speedy trial and legal representation) to be the basis of our liberties. It seems evident that these are being infringed by the Bush administration in the name of national security, and that a substantial number of people posting in this thread agree with the President's view that he can do anything he likes in his role as Commander in Chief. I'm not surprised by this, but I still think it's very sad.

How the hell did you completely miss Greenwald's point

I suspect the answer to this question is "intentionally."

Gee megan- Miss the point much? Maybe the reason no one has heard of John Yoo is because the establishment media does not report anything about him to the public? Is it possible that the media not fullfilling their purpose might have something to do with how missinformed the public is in general?

Boy... Thick aren't we.

Spencer:
Glenn just put up a new post where he rips Drezner and McArdle a new one. Good times!!

I should have posted the link. Here.

Megan, I typically find your posts interesting, even if I disagree with them. Here, you're either being intellectually dishonest or this entire post is a perfect example of exactly the mindset Glenn is describing.

I don't know which, and at this point I no longer care.


/ignore

Rob you realize that the memo by Yoo redefines torture in the following way right? On page 3 of the brief.

"The United States understands that, in order to constitute torture an act must be specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering ..."


In other words if your intent is to torture someone for the sake of torturing someone, that's illegal. But if you are torturing someone for information well that's fine. Just below this paragraph they make this argument explicit.

"it made crystal clear that the intent requirement for torture was specific intent." They took the term "intentionally inflicted" to mean that the intent is the intent to cause harm. If you tortured someone to get information your "intent" wasn't to cause harm but to get information. The language "intentionally inflicted" was added to cover accidental harm, not to add an intent requirement for torture.

Rob - you clearly didn't read the memo and since the administration has since repudiated this memo, I wouldn't spend too much energy defending it. It redefined torture in a a way that was convienent for the administration.

"Believe me, nearly every journalist in DC wants to write in-depth stories on foreign policy questions, and nearly every editor in the nation would dearly love to sell them."--MM

" By the end of episode two, we were lamenting the absence of a revolution to which we could credibly pledge our "Lives, our Fortunes, and our Sacred Honor".--MM

Megan,

what other lies do journo's tell themselves to quell Conscience's mid-night pangs?

from GG's link, above:

"It can never be the case that there is anything profoundly wrong -- fundamentally wrong -- with the American political establishment. Why not? Because the McArdles and Drezners both support it and are part of it, and they are Good and thus can't possibly be responsible for things like "war crimes" or "torture regimes" or illegal wars of aggression. That's why the political establishment is so desperate to stay in Iraq until we "win" and to convince everyone that the public supports them again. They are desperate to wash their hands of that which they enabled so they can pretend they never did.

As is frequently pointed out by historians and other scholars, the types of aggressive wars that McArdle, Drezner and their fellow establishment mavens support inevitably lead to exactly the sort of war crimes and pervasive government lawbreaking which they want to pretend doesn't matter. Here is what lead American prosecutor Robert Jackson said in his closing statement at the Nuremberg Trials:

We charge unlawful aggression but we are not trying the motives, hopes or frustrations which may have led Germany to resort to aggressive war as an instrument of policy . . . It merely requires that the status quo not be attacked by violent means and that policies be not advanced by war. . . .

The central crime in this pattern of crimes, the kingpin which holds them all together, is the plot for aggressive wars. The chief reason for international cognizance of these crimes lies in this fact. Have we established the Plan or Conspiracy to make aggressive war?

Aggressive war is the linchpin of war crimes and tyranny and inevitably produces them. And that's precisely the evidence that is now emerging as a result of the endless, aggressive war people like McArdle and Drezner supported -- the systematic implementation of a regime of torture and lawless detention by the highest levels of our government, the assertion of the right to suspend even the most basic Constitutional liberties such as the Fourth and Fifth Amendments, the seizure of power even to break the law and to immunize the lawbreakers, and the ongoing willingness of our highest government officials to lie about terrorist attacks and the law in order to obtain still more unchecked power.

But the people who caused and enabled that to happen are -- understandably so -- desperate to avoid acknowledging what they've done. Hence, these are all just irrelevant matters of the dead and worthless past. They're just the totally unexpected by-products of isolated bad actors like Lynndie England and John Yoo -- "low-level functionaries" -- and it's all been fixed now anyway. There's no real reason to harp on it or have our media investigate it. We have a fun presidential election to watch on the TV and there's no reason to let dreary, partisan, overheated accusations get in the way of the unfolding soap opera.

Is Obama smoking again? Why can't he bowl? Did you see the way he nibbled on his chocolate like a girl? Let's watch those Jeremiah Wright videos again. Hillary was in the White House when Bill played with his cigars!!! "What's wrong with that?," ask the befuddled Megan McArdles and Dan Drezners of the world. That's what they want to focus on so that what they've done continues to be ignored, concealed and forgotten.

-- Glenn Greenwald

Brophy: Find me a figure in the Civil War who also supported the Mexican-American War and went on to advocate the Indian Wars, and I'll be happy to name him a warmonger. I'm sure they were legion. There were no doubt plenty of warmongers among Northerners who supported that war, as well as plenty of people who reluctantly supported only that war, and not the others, because of its moral urgency. Sort of like Barack Obama, who thinks the wars in Afghanistan and Kosovo were wars of necessity, but the wars in Iraq and Vietnam were stupid mistakes.

John McCain, in contrast, has supported 9 of our last 5 wars. He's a warmonger.

I'm afraid Glenn ground your bones dust this morning.

Ta ta.

I think Greenwald is kind of a crappy writer and has an overly literalistic and legalistic cast of mind. But on the substance of this point, he's pretty clearly right.

OF COURSE american journalists are lightweight. bush and his thugs have turned your country into a fascist nightmare, and it is simply accepted. you guys are TORTURING people for fucks sake. you argue politely over what constitutes torture, splitting your fascist fucking hairs. you have gulags, secret prisons. and none of this matters. it's all business as usual, pathetic stories about non-issues, whilst you ignore the fascist swill.

greenwald is right. he's a light shining in your black bloody hole.

The press's fixation on Obama's bowling and pastor (but not McCain's endorsement by religious extremists like Hagee and Parsley) to the exclusion of John Yoo coverage -- for example -- is very demeaning to the press itself, because it shows two things: (1) Spoonfeeding this worthless pap to the American public shows in what low regard the press holds the American public it nevertheless depends on to keep it in business, and (2) this type of empty, inconsequential celebrity-oriented "reporting" may well be the only type of reporting the press is capable of anymore.

You seem oblivious to the bad light this type of reporting shows the press in.

The press decides what news it will provide to the public, not the other way around. The public isn't demanding coverage of Barak Obama's bowling prowess. The press is giving it to them whether they want it or not -- and I for one don't want it. I want coverage of consequential matters like John Yoo, and the unprecedented politicization of the DOJ.

Ever since its largely uncritical acceptance of the administration's pretense for the Iraq invasion, the mainstream press has had egg all over its face, and it keeps adding more layers of rotten egg to its collective face all the time. Glenn Greenwald holds a brightly lit mirror up to those egg-covered faces. No wonder you don't like it.

Madam;

The United States government has willingly and even enthusiastically caused innocent men to be tortured to death and Yoo worked closely with the Administration at the very highest levels to make this happen.

You claim that Americans don't care about this; I put it to you that you are the one who doesn't care about this: I put it to you further that even if all of America were the heartless uncaring psychopaths you make them out to be, it'd be your responsibility as a member of the media to expose the horrible crimes committed in their name and to try to make them care.

"Also, the ICC lacks jurisdiction because the US never ratified the treaty."

Lucky that lack of ratification, otherwise we would be guilty of torturing people.

Well, on preview I see that Glenn Greenwald nailed it; from his article:

"At bottom, both McArdle and Drezner are defending media fixations on the pettiest and stupidest of matters while ignoring the weightiest. Rather obviously, the issue isn't that they're covering Barack Obama too much and John Yoo not enough. The issue is that more Americans were aware of how much John Edwards paid for his haircut than were aware that Saddam Hussein didn't personally plan the 9/11 attacks -- far more. Does someone who defends that media behavior -- who is incapable of recognizing why that's so destructive -- really merit any serious refutation?"

I'm curious, Ms. McArdle: can you possibly refute this?

Ms. McArdle,

No no no no no no no. Sorry, that's what keeps repeating in my head when I read your blog entry. John Yoo wrote a memorandum that became the basis for the Bush administration's foreign and domestic policies; policies that in varying degrees continue to be employed today. It is not looking backwards, the events that took place only five, six, seven years ago have dramatic impact upon how our government runs today! For example, many of the arguments about FISA are based upon the same fallacies that Yoo based his memorandum such as during 'wartime' a President is given unlimited power such as search and seizure power. For you, a political reporter, to just gloss over the Yoo documents as artifacts from the past that have little bearing upon today's "news" stuns me. I would think the suspension of the 4th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States would warrant a little interest, if not concern, on your part. What I want from news organizations, rather, DEMAND from news organizations today is to treat governmental matters seriously and to investigate them truly in-depth. If I want to learn about Obama's bowling or Clinton's cackle I'll always know I can look in The National Enquirer or on Entertainment Tonight.
Sincerely,
Joshua
ps. I'm disappointed that a political reporter would not know Alfonzo Jackson or the controversies that surrounded him before his resignation. Just had to write that because it makes me further concerned about our Washington-based, establishment press.

Megan McArdle says:

This is not because journalists are insulated from their readers. It is because readers buy more papers with headlines about Jamie Lynn Spears than they do with headlines about Alphonso Jackson or John Yoo, since as I think I just mentioned, they have never heard of either person. You can lead a consumer to stories of vital national importance, but you cannot make him care. You can just make him pass over your paper in favor of the Enquirer.

My response to this:

Speaking for myself and no one else, I read Glenn Greenwald every day, and Megan McArdle hardly at all. After 35 years as a professional journalist, I think that by now I can tell substance from filler.

By Megan's reasoning, McDonald's must be serving the best food in America because more people eat there than anywhere else. Well, in terms of thought-provoking commentary, you're feeding us McDonald's, Megan, and Greenwald is serving us big juicy steaks. That's my consumer feedback from the marketplace of ideas.

Blake, who in your opinion does not have a duty to serve the country? Your statement of the media could apply to just about any organization or individual. Do you follow the McCainian idea that national service is the responsibility for all within the nation?

brooksfoe, honoring thy father and mother is a choice, not a duty, regardless of the text in which it was published.

So Megan's argument is: The press isn't a bunch of lightweights, they simply _act_ like a bunch of lightwieights. I don't see how that invalidates Greenwald's point. I'm sure you all _really, really_ want to investigate US torture policy (just like you _really_ wanted to do real journalism in the run-up to the war). Well boo hoo.

Megan, it's hardly my concern what the market perceptions of the news directors are at various news channels. Since their product claims to be "news," I hold them to a different standard, and I don't remain morally neutral under by claiming, "oh, it's just business." I look at who benefits from such idiocy, and I condemn it, forcefully.

You're defending such deviant behavior from the media for the same reason you're not too concerned about the institutionalization of torture: you're a morally vacuous human being.

I can't help but feel embarrassed for you, Megan. Glenn so outclasses you as a thinker and writer, that merely reading this post makes me cringe. Is this really what you want to defend? His response to this post has shut you down completely, which was entirely predictable. What's really puzzling is that you have no shame, and will continue this pathetic, dimwitted blog, impervious to pointed and valid criticisms. After all, it can't be the case that you are wrong headed, have poor judgment, or lack insight and perspective. That just isn't possible, so why not keep scribbling?

Oh, and I love the argument that events from a year or two ago are "the past." Ah yes ... Gitmo, secret rendition camps, illegal wiretapping ... such a dark era in American history. I'm so glad our nation has moved on!

Ms. McArdle,

No no no no no no no. Sorry, that's what keeps repeating in my head when I read your blog entry. John Yoo wrote a memorandum that became the basis for the Bush administration's foreign and domestic policies; policies that in varying degrees continue to be employed today. It is not looking backwards, the events that took place only five, six, seven years ago have dramatic impact upon how our government runs today! For example, many of the arguments about FISA are based upon the same fallacies that Yoo based his memorandum such as during 'wartime' a President is given unlimited power such as search and seizure power. For you, a political reporter, to just gloss over the Yoo documents as artifacts from the past that have little bearing upon today's "news" stuns me. I would think the suspension of the 4th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States would warrant a little interest, if not concern, on your part. What I want from news organizations, rather, DEMAND from news organizations today is to treat governmental matters seriously and to investigate them truly in-depth. If I want to learn about Obama's bowling or Clinton's cackle I'll always know I can look in The National Enquirer or on Entertainment Tonight.
Sincerely,
Joshua
ps. I'm disappointed that a political reporter would not know Alfonzo Jackson or the controversies that surrounded him before his resignation. Just had to write that because it makes me further concerned about our Washington-based, establishment press.

Oh, my.

Ms. McCardle if I were you I'd quit while I'm behind. You are obviously not in the same league as Mr. Greenwald. Seriously, your piece, rather than refuting Mr. Greenwald's contention about the media actually supports it. And the most painful thing for your readers to see is that you are so far gone that you don't even recognize that fact.

Megan,

Just curious, how's your head after that GlennZilla! pile driver?

That's about all I have time for - the rest of your rant is gah-bige.

"Start with Barack Obama. Americans care more about him than John Yoo because, well, John Yoo isn't running for president."

Hahahhahahahaha....You cannot be serious. How would you know, since the media has written very little about Yoo? As yoo-sual, you are presuming that you stand for the public's interest, when in fact you're contributing to the public's ignorance.

But, just to claim that Obama's bowling is of more interest to the public than the administration's torture is mind-blowing.

Is Megan McCardle really an experienced journalist? Writing entertainment news is not journalism. Who cares how a candidate bowls when the top 5 or 6 people from the Justice and Defense Departments and the White House are being advised not to leave the country so as not to be arrested as war criminals? When CIA operatives are being encouraged to purchase liability insurance against the possibility of being sued for actions sanctioned by the war criminals? Can any serious citizen think that what any candidate ate in the Reading Terminal or Wilburs Chocolate measures up against war crimes? We need serious change. Our media has served us so poorly over the last several years and now we find out why. They aren't really journalists, only titillators and enterntainment providers.

Is Megan McCardle really an experienced journalist? Writing entertainment news is not journalism. Who cares how a candidate bowls when the top 5 or 6 people from the Justice and Defense Departments and the White House are being advised not to leave the country so as not to be arrested as war criminals? When CIA operatives are being encouraged to purchase liability insurance against the possibility of being sued for actions sanctioned by the war criminals? Can any serious citizen think that what any candidate ate in the Reading Terminal or Wilburs Chocolate measures up against war crimes? We need serious change. Our media has served us so poorly over the last several years and now we find out why. They aren't really journalists, only titillators and enterntainment providers.

ivan, Greenwald's "logic" dictates that McDonald's should focus on serving people what Greenwald thinks they should eat, instead of what its customers know they want to eat.

Ms. McCardle:

Thanks for affirming Mr. Greenwald's thesis with such a self-damning post.

as far as i'm concerned, this poster -steve - said it all:

I can't help but feel embarrassed for you, Megan. Glenn so outclasses you as a thinker and writer, that merely reading this post makes me cringe. Is this really what you want to defend? His response to this post has shut you down completely, which was entirely predictable. What's really puzzling is that you have no shame, and will continue this pathetic, dimwitted blog, impervious to pointed and valid criticisms. After all, it can't be the case that you are wrong headed, have poor judgment, or lack insight and perspective. That just isn't possible, so why not keep scribbling?

like other posters, i don't read this blog much at all. when it first started, i would drift over often, just to see if anything interesting was going on.
sadly, megan is such a dunce i simply don't waste my time anymore.
i do, however, read greenwald everyday, and only ventured over here again because he referenced this posting.
what is truly amusing to me is the fact that she gladly reveals her ignorance and appears to wear it as a badge of honor. for instance, the fact that she was, by her own admission, ignorant of alphonso jackson's identity is startling. any citizen -let alone a supposed journalist/blogger - should have been aware that he's been involved in all sorts of scandal for years. frankly, if i were in her position, i'd be embarrassed to acknowledge that level of ignorance. but as steve noted, she has no shame.
it is truly mindboggling that atlantic continues to publish this truly high school level garbage. i think this is the first time i've read one of these postings in a couple of months and i can only say that her thinking and reasoning and writing is as bad, as illogical as it was when i stopped reading this stuff.

Obviously, I think John Yoo's adventures are a matter of slightly greater national importance. (As indeed do our nation's media, who--aside from the Syracuse Post-Standard--ran virtually no coverage of the topic over the last month.)
Slightly? A document that was requested and delivered expressly to enable methods of interrogation and incarceration that the ICRC said amounted to torture? Systematic torture, which this document is part of, is a crime against humanity. We've been treated to a steady diet of outrage from this government over the last few months, including the ludicrous assertion that we don't merit comparison to Torquemada because our methods are from the Pol Pot school. If the media feels this is only slightly more important that the arrival times of Fire crews in Syracuse, the media has lost its ability to make comparisons, plain and simple.
But voters can't do much about John Yoo now, other than choose a different type of president. Maybe they should do that by eagerly scanning Obama and Clinton and McCain's platforms--though I am at a loss to think how one might have divined a John Yoo from the anodyne folia of the Bush 2000 campaign.
Why should the voters be scanning through the anodyne folia of any candidate? Why aren't investigative reporters doing that and bringing relevant information to light? Why didn't they in 2000? The fact that the voters cannot get the information they need to make an informed decision is an indictment of the press, not the voters, not the campaigns, not the websites.
As far as anyone can tell, however, this is not how voters decide. Believe me, nearly every journalist in DC wants to write in-depth stories on foreign policy questions, and nearly every editor in the nation would dearly love to sell them. If there were a millions-deep wellspring of interest in the topic, some enterprising publication would already have tapped it dry.
And how would that wellspring of interest occur? Parthenogenesis? There is a wellspring of interest on any story that has been covered and promoted as one on which there should be a wellspring of interest. Dan Dreznier can tell you that, being an expert on social science, although his credentials appear to be in serious doubt. If editors and journalists find no market for the stories they would dearly love to cover, then do what most corporate enterprises do in that situation: educate your market, build momentum for your product, repackage your product to generate interest, do focus groups and marketing research to figure out how to create such a wellspring. You all know that's how it's done, so your statement that everybody would rather be doing serious news lacks credibility.

In the final analysis, your final paragraph is a much harsher indictment, by smoking gun evidence, than anything Glenn Greenwald wrote about NEXIS or about you. Your industry was granted special rights and privileges by the people of this nation in the Constitution, on the basis of the need for your institution to enable informed decisions by the public. If you are failing in that task, your industry is gravely breaching the trust that the founders of this nation put in you. You become complicit in all that is done because of that breach, and you have little to show for why you didn't try harder. Torture and unnecessary war are two of the gravest crimes there are, bar none. You appear to believe that there is a need for a Fourth Estate that doesn't think they are important. The firefighters in Syracuse could face serious consequences for late arrivals, because people could have died. People have died because the press refused to inform. Should journalists be held to the standards of firefighters in Syracuse? Now that would be a story!

I too came here from Greenwald's site; a location which I visit almost daily and to which I have directed hundreds of others over the last year or so, starting from the old Unclaimed Territory days. I don't go there for Glenn's writing style but rather for his research, his passion, and his dogged pursuit to reclaim that for which America should stand.
Land of the brave. Home of the free.
IT hasn't felt like that around here for quite a while.
Reading Megan's response, as is often the case when more mainstrean journos "respond" to Glenn, only confirmed most of Glann's points about the media. Perhaps the problem these folks have - the honest ones at any rate - is an inability to perceive the muck in which they stand. Much like someone who has lived beside a gaseous swamp all their lives being confused as to why visitors complain about the smell.
The John Yoo and Mukasey stories should be front page headlines EVERY SINGLE DAMNED DAY until justice is done. They should be shouted from the roof tops. They strike to the soul of this country.
I wonder what Megan will write when the current administration suspends our upcoming elections on behalf of national security? And then invites Blackwater to "protect" our polling places?

How very ironic that what all of the survivalist types and Freemen sorts worried was happening under Clinton has come true under the GOP banner. Time for concerned citizens to be sure that they do exercise their second amendment rights.

"You can lead a consumer to stories of vital national importance..."

"journalists should cover the more serious stories..."

"every journalist in DC wants to write in-depth stories on foreign policy questions..."


Yes, more of those things, please.

All of you using the excuse that reporters are just giving the people what they want despite it's being distracting and bad for them in general clearly don't objectively read Greenwald. He has linked to many polls which consistently show that people DON'T want Britney and Lohan and more Britney. The negatives in the polls on the press are there. Look around.

My feeling is that there should at least be SOME news outlets that are nonprofit organizations. Why anyone would trust a for-profit corporation for their news is beyond me. Especially when the CEOs and upper managers of these corporations are so politically active.

We can get our news from a ton of sources now and no one seems to really scoop anyone anymore which simply makes the job of media outlets now to act as news filters, not providers. Their job now is to choose which news is most important and which gets ignored. Sure, some people respond to crap but there are A LOT of people unhappy with the nonsense and those of you making excuses for the press are completely behind the curve.

As usual.

Brian, I did read the memo, and I think your reading of it is seriously flawed because you apparently don't understand the way treaties become binding or the legal jargon Yoo employs.

"The United States understands that, in order to constitute torture an act must be specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering ..."

This is a statement that Bush I made to the Senate, which was included in the instrument of ratification as a reservation. Bush I's words, not Yoo's. Furthermore, reservations are central to the iterpretation of the treaty under US law; Yoo has to interpret these words because they define what the treaty really does mean in