I don't know that I agree with Mark Kleiman that Barack Obama's masculinity won't be an issue in the coming election. On the one hand he's tall, but he's kind of, well, scrawny looking. But also, the political space I think he's trying to occupy--building understanding and reconciliation between hostile voter grops--is generally seen as a woman's role. And he's running against a much-decorated fighter pilot renowned for chasing women until his walker started getting in the way. I'm not saying it will be decisive, but it's probably something Obama needs to address,a nd I'm not sure how they will.
Update A surprising number of commenters sent here by other blogs seem to believe that implying I am a lesbian is a gross insult. An even more surprising number seem to think that it is a wicked "gotcha" to point out that I too, am kind of on the beanpole side, as if this fact had perhaps escaped my notice. For the apparently large number of commenters who have just immigrated from Mauritania, American women are not usually flustered and ashamed when you tell them how skinny they are.
Most distressing of all, however, is the fact that they seem to have completely missed the point. I am a Barack Obama supporter, albeit of a rather tepid variety, worried about a potential issue in the general election, not a detractor looking for nasty things to say about him. I don't think it's weird or crazy to worry that a Democrat promising to end the war and trying to project a super nice-guy image may lose the testosterone race to a fighter pilot promising 100 more years. This does not imply approval of philandering, other fraternity-boy antics, or the 100 years war.
You may now return to crafting insults about the indeed sizeable gap between my front teeth.
Then again, Obama has a much deeper and more masculine voice than either Hillary (for obvious reasons) or McCain's southern twang.
Barack also has a problem in that he's a lawyer. This shows in his wordsmithing around troublesome questions. All politicians do this but he's particularly verbose. This will mark him as weasly. The net result is that he will come across to men as either weak or devious (a new Laval or Petain) or both. If you are going to play the "I'll talk to our enemies" route, you had better be perceived as strong and decisive.
Steroids.
DaveM
John Dickerson wrote that when a race is between Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck (Kennedy/Nixon, Bush/Gore) or Yosemite Sam(Obama/McCain), Bugs always wins. The ability to do the equivalent of calmly filing your nails while your adversary gets crazy and red-faced is a winning trait. It makes you look strong and confident.
While I think, in the debate, Clinton did better in terms of her responses and in her using the free throws the moderators awarded her, I think Obama's cool may have helped him more than her attacks helped her.
Obama's response the following day was very Bugs-like, amused, dismissive, unruffled. And I do think that plays our as strong and decisive.
In fact, the Republicans obviously see this as his strength. Bugs is arrogant. They're trying to highlight the negatives of a strong character.
Of course, on Megan's terms, Carter should have lost to Ford, Bush to Gore and Bush to Kerry. Bush is also a skinny man, with a much worse voice than either of the two and a small head. This stuff is mostly manufactured.
And, of course, Dickerson said that he thought McCain be the exception that proved the rule. Gotta keep that union card.
This made me think of the post I read at Hot Air this morning where they were debating whether Obama had given Hillary 'the finger.'
You know, masculinity, hand gestures, the really important stuff.
Christ, it's like triteness is an ambition.
Megan,
While I will agree that McCain may be perceived as a "much-decorated fighter pilot," due to the stories that have been consciously constructed over the years... does it really help to keep repeating them in instances like this when, the War Hero schtick really isn't accurate.
Yes.. McCain has a number of valor medals and s Silver Star--but according to sources, (say like here: http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_hacker_2.htm Yes.. I know it might be biased..but..info is info..) a lot of these medals were given solely on the basis of undergoing torture as a POW.
Does this make John McCain the War Hero that the phrase "much-decorated" implies?
I tend to think not. He was only in combat for a total of 20 hours and did not do anything super risky. He, unfortunately, was captured and tortured by a country that he was trying to bomb.
By that standard, we are making just about everyone at Guantanamo into War Heroes.. well.. except for those innocent people we have locked up there.. i guess they would just be unlucky bastards.. not being soldiers and all.. (like this guy.. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/25/AR2006082501270.html )
In any case, I don't mean to disparage the suffering that John McCain endured. It was horrible and he deserves respect for all that he suffered... but going from that to proclaiming him a War Hero--that's a bit of a stretch... If he's a war hero, then every person taken POW is a war hero..
Obama's not a man to go tiger hunting with, as the Brits would say; McCain is. Don't discount the importance of that kind of an appraisal.
Until John Edwards dropped out, I could get easy cheap laughs from DC audiences by saying that Hillary was the only man in the Democratic race. If I can get that from the people I hang out with, heaven only knows what the bitter gun-toting rubes will be saying at church this weekend.
Ummmm - I think conducting yourself heroically in captivity counts as heroism.
"If he's a war hero, then every person taken POW is a war hero."
This only works if you believe that what the North Vietnamese did to US POWs was typical POW treatment.
Most accounts of the treatment of US POWs in Vietnam go well beyond water boarding and sleep deprivation.
Kleiman is quite correct in pointing out how Obama benefits from playing a physically demanding sport like basketball. Most men past age 40 engage in no physical activity other than God-damned cartball, which barely qualifies as such. Seeing a man that age who hasn't let his body turn into a marshmallow is very inspiring.
In theory at least, basketball's reputation as an urban black sport could be an issue for Obama among certain voters, but there's no sign of that having happened yet.
"...building understanding and reconciliation between hostile voter groups--is generally seen as a woman's role".
Name an instance.
I'm making a general cultural statement, which you're free to disagree with; we see judging (choosing who's right) as a male activity, while we see compromise (let's not argue about who's right, let's try to understand each other) as feminine.
Someone in the media will. Probably someone like MoDo since she has done it before. And it's exactly what Glenn Greenwald has been writing about. especially his new book.
Lord, I hope he doesn't try some stunt to show that he's masculine. That kind of thing never works out. It will just seem contrived and prove nothing. He needs to focus on convincing us that he actually likes American and explaining why he hangs out with a bunch of anti-American racists before he tries to convince us that he's "masculine" or whatever.
a lot of these medals were given solely on the basis of undergoing torture as a POW.
.
Does this make John McCain the War Hero that the phrase "much-decorated" implies?
.
I tend to think not. He was only in combat for a total of 20 hours and did not do anything super risky. He, unfortunately, was captured and tortured by a country that he was trying to bomb.
I'll write in Eugene McCarthy before I'll vote for McCain, but I don't think this is valid. McCain had the opportunity to accept an early release. He refused because it would negatively affect morale of US troops. He was suffering great pain, torture and knew full well that his chances of dying as a POW were significant. In many ways, that is more impressive than the valor that often comes completely from self-preservation instincts in battle.
McCain is 5'7 and really, really old. Like, that guy from Last Crusade after he drinks from the wrong grail old. I highly doubt Obama loses the aesthetics vote.
I tend to think not. He was only in combat for a total of 20 hours and did not do anything super risky.
What about landing his jet on a carrier? Flying is inherently dangerous, and it only gets more so when the runway is bobbing up and down in the middle of the ocean.
Really EI? You really believe that Obama does not like America? REALLY?
Christ, it's like triteness is an ambition.
Posted by RobS | April 18, 2008 9:01 AM
Rob,
consider the source, of course it is
hey, how about we honor our heroes when they deserve that honor. you might not like mccain, but he is certainly a war hero. disagree with him, but do not slander him.
hey, how about we honor our heroes when they deserve that honor. you might not like mccain, but he is certainly a war hero. disagree with him, but do not slander him.
I agree. I just hope you and everyone else saying so said the exact same thing in 2004, regarding John Kerry.
did not do anything super risky.
Uh, whatever he did was risky enough to get captured. I tend to agree that victim != hero, and I don't know if McCain's service beyond his imprisonment was heroic or not.
However, my understanding is that when his captors determined that he was the son of an admiral, he was offered release and he chose to stay because other prisoners were not to be released as well. I have a hard time as seeing that as anything other than heroic.
Why even both asking what the media will cover--why not just ask the people what they want to see covered. Aren't they the same thing?
Glorious, just glorious. Thanks for that one Freddie, gave me a good smile. And of course, that comparison is gonna stick in my head as this campaign continues.
"...building understanding and reconciliation between hostile voter groups--is generally seen as a woman's role".
Name an instance.
That is pretty funny. Better not mention recipes or lipstick....
I really don't think this will be an issue at all. I am a 25 year old male that didn't even think of this until you brought it up. I think that might be because of my age. If that is the case it will be able to be played into the same theme as the race issue where young people don't care and older people look like they are holding on to racist or sexist stereotypes.
Obama is also helped by the fact that a lot of the things that one would point to mock him as effeminate are actually positives. To take your examples, he is lanky because he is over 40 and in better shape than I am. He doesn't hump everything that moves because he has a beautiful wife and a very well rounded marriage. "Building understanding and reconciliation between hostile voter groups" may be a traditionally feminine tactic but it is also exactly what many voters are hoping for from their next President.
The one way I could see it hurting him is if he makes another gaff that could build into this elitist notion Hillary and the Republicans are trying to tie around his neck. If that starts to to get rolling then I could see this masculinity issue being thrown in on top as part of that theme.
renowned for chasing women until his walker started getting in the way
WTF is Megan referring to? That he divorced one wife and married another more than 25 years ago???
This is about as slimy as Megan's false smear against Cindy McCain yesterday.
Huh? The guy has cultivated a reputation as an olympic-caliber skirt-chaser. It's hardly a vicious calumny. Note that he was in his fifties when he started his "whirlwind affair" with Cindy, which was self-admittedly far from the first time he had cheated on his wife.
The guy has cultivated a reputation as an olympic-caliber skirt-chaser.
You mean in the 1970s, when he was in his 30s and early 40s?
Note that he was in his fifties when he started his "whirlwind affair" with Cindy, which was self-admittedly far from the first time he had cheated on his wife.
No, he was in his early 40s when he met Cindy. They got married when he was 43.
I'm surprised that McCain's "walker started getting in the way" when he was 43. Or do you believe he's been an "olympic-caliber skirt-chaser" since he got (re-)married at the age of 43?
My god.
We have an economy on the way to meltdown, we're in a war with no forseeable end, forty million plus people with no health insurance, are in debt to China to the point where our grandchildren will still be paying it off and you're worried that Obama isn't manly enough?
What the hell is wrong with you?
"building understanding and reconciliation between hostile voter groups--is generally seen as a woman's role. ... I'm making a general cultural statement"
No, actually, you're not. You're basically buying into and further propagating a completely bulls**t meme. Otherwise, you'd have pointed out that McCain's vaunted ability and much-reported reputation to cross party lines and "build understanding and reconciliation between hostile voter groups" somehow affects his "masculinity".
"The guy has cultivated a reputation as an olympic-caliber skirt-chaser."
And, again, this is nonsense. Come back when you've got something valid to report because this was just embarrassing.
And for the record, Megan, the word "compromise" emphatically does *not* mean "let's not argue about who's right, let's try to understand each other", which makes this "analysis" even sillier.
Let's see - can we rely on the left-leaning Wiki for some McCain heroism:
By then a lieutenant commander, McCain was almost killed on July 29, 1967, when he was at the epicenter of the Forrestal fire. McCain escaped from his burning jet and was trying to help another pilot escape when a bomb exploded;[31] McCain was struck in the legs and chest by fragments.[32] The ensuing fire killed 134 sailors and took 24 hours to control.[33][34] As Forrestal headed for repairs, McCain volunteered for the USS Oriskany.[35]
Those wounds were plenty for a ticket home, although they wouldn't have led to a Purple Heart since it was not enemy action. Obviously, he stayed on.
John McCain's capture and imprisonment began on October 26, 1967. He was flying his 23rd bombing mission over North Vietnam, when his A-4E Skyhawk was shot down by a missile over Hanoi. McCain fractured both arms and a leg, and then nearly drowned when he parachuted into Truc Bach Lake in Hanoi.[37] After he regained consciousness, a mob attacked him,[42] crushed his shoulder with a rifle butt, and bayoneted him; he was then transported to Hanoi's main Hoa Loa Prison, nicknamed the "Hanoi Hilton".
Where he refused release and stayed for over five years, as noted above.
23 missions, 20 hours - could be right.
I agree the GOP will play the wimp card as they always do.They've been doing it to Obama for months. 'Elitist' is the closest they've had to success with that but it's a no-brainer who the richest most-privileged golddigger really is. So I also think it can't stick.
Which only leaves them the race and terrorist cards. They'll try to play all three, but fortunately, Obama's playing with a full deck.
This is so deep.
This is so deep.
Yet another exercise in vapid discourse Meggy. Network news not doing it for you anymore?
And you call your critics sexist?
Way to reify those normative cultural tropes you're soooooo opposed to, Megan.
'Elitist' is the closest they've had to success with that but it's a no-brainer who the richest most-privileged golddigger really is.
It's perfectly possible to be an elitist with a hardscrabble background or a stunningly rich populist from New York (see R, FD). Elitism is a state of mind, not a state of biography.
So is vapidity, Rob.
I don't know what's worse, Megan posting this crap or reading you guys discussing it so earnestly.
None of you know any of the candidates. You're trying to gleam personality information from a bunch of people you've never met and about whom the only information you have has been spun one way or another 80 million times.
Ridiculous.
So is vapidity, Rob.
How very true.
My point, as is often the case, is not to argue something substantive (I don't know or care if Obama's an elitist; it won't affect my vote), but to point out that Kevin's (and Obama's, as it turns out) argument is, dare I say it, vapid.
McArdle: your thesis is bolstered by one Abraham Lincoln. Too skinny. Wife a bit off-kilter. How in the Lord's name did he win in spite of those major flaws? Probably because voters didn't have the benefits of insights you now provide to them. Disaster averted.
Yes, REALLY.
Though I suppose he probably likes America the way a con-artist likes his marks...
REALLY.
Earnest,
Do you also think your post office mailman is opening up all your letters and resealing them? Or that the dentist is placing bugs in your fillings?
To the rest,
As silly as this idea is, at least Megan's 'man' enough to keep comments up, unlike certain bloggers at the Atlantic nowadays... *cough AMBINDER cough*
"hey, how about we honor our heroes when they deserve that honor. you might not like mccain, but he is certainly a war hero. disagree with him, but do not slander him."
I used to think this way. But in 2004 the Republicans (and many libertarians, too!) showed me, via their sick, dishonest trashing of John Kerry, that anything goes! Even if - or ESPECIALLY IF - the person in question is a hero.
And yeah, Megan, this is a hella sexist post. You should be ashamed of yourself.
I'm making a general cultural statement
Dude, you're concern trolling. Stop working David Brooks' side of the street.
Megan is so damn TALL for a woman. I wonder if this will hurt her readership numbers in the long run.
I'm making a general cultural statement, which you're free to disagree with; we see being over 6 feet as more of a male feature, while we see being shorter and petite as feminine.
I'm not saying Megan's size and shape will be decisive for her blog ratings, but it's probably something she needs to address, and I'm not sure how she will.
...
From publishing Mark Twain to Megan McArdle. Wow. What a tragedy.
BTW Megan, before you go calling other people sexist, be careful not to be stupid enough to demonstrate your own sexist prism.
much-decorated fighter pilot renowned for chasing women
Sounds like the minutes from a meeting of the old girls nework, which is about building understanding and reconciliation except when it's really more aboout stabbing in the back until we've established who we really should like.
John McCain is NOT a much decorated fighter pilot. Unless the NVA gave him a medal for setting fire to the Forrestall.
Are you not only deleting these comments you refer to in your update, but all traces of their existence, Megan?
Because there's not a single comment of a kind to back up your claims on this thread or any other from here to your most recent post.
You're lying.
"But in 2004 the Republicans (and many libertarians, too!) showed me, via their sick, dishonest trashing of John Kerry, that anything goes! Even if - or ESPECIALLY IF - the person in question is a hero."
Is there any evidence that McCain has distorted or exaggerated his record? Kerry went out of his way to make his military record central to his qualifications, and then people came forward that had been there at the time and that disputed specific claims. Such factual disputes are valid.
commenters sent here by other blogs seem to believe that implying I am a lesbian...
Cinnderella, somebody is exaggerating.
1.) I think Megan has a bit o' the ol' hotness, not beanpolitude! Just my opinion!
2.) I wonder aloud if any man could be nominated for President if he were shorter than his wife? Would people accept that? I also doubt any single person -- yes, you Condi! -- could ever be nominated.
Who would have thunk that Roy Edroso would be this precient, this quickly?
Is there any evidence that McCain has distorted or exaggerated his record? Kerry went out of his way to make his military record central to his qualifications, and then people came forward that had been there at the time and that disputed specific claims. Such factual disputes are valid.
Try again, genius, people came forward that were NOT there at the time. Not on Kerry's boats. One of those vermin had the audacity to put himself on a THREE-man boat, whose actual crewmembers were still alive to wonder openly whether maybe he was chained to the hull or something, 'cause they sure as hell never saw him.
And thanks to the spectacular negligence of the so-called liberal media, a lot of idiots never got their addled facts straight. Many of them are still passing on the pathetic lies four years later. Would you believe it, Ann?
Well, I guess you would, wouldn't you?
Is there any evidence that McCain has distorted or exaggerated his record? Kerry went out of his way to make his military record central to his qualifications, and then people came forward that had been there at the time and that disputed specific claims. Such factual disputes are valid.
Try again, genius, people came forward that were NOT there at the time. Not on Kerry's boats. One of those vermin had the audacity to put himself on a THREE-man boat, whose actual crewmembers were still alive to wonder openly whether maybe he was chained to the hull or something, 'cause they sure as hell never saw him.
And thanks to the spectacular negligence of the so-called liberal media, a lot of idiots never got their addled facts straight. Many of them are still passing on the pathetic lies four years later. Would you believe it, Ann?
Well, I guess you would, wouldn't you?
Most distressing of all, however, is the fact that they seem to have completely missed the point. I am a Barack Obama supporter, albeit of a rather tepid variety, worried about a potential issue in the general election,
In other words, she's Andrew Sullivan. Megan, we're not stupid. Many of us are merely waiting for the inevitable day when the ruse is abandoned, and you, Sullivan, and quite a few other Obama "supporters" switch to McCain, once that unthinkable Hillary is out of the picture. We know why you "support" Obama.
You should get a head start, and write your post on why you have to vote McCain in November on economic issues. No sense having to write it then.
since you seem to support obama just curious if you've read 'dreams from my father' where he trashes 'heart of darkness' as racist...
Please let the "100 years" thing die... he never said that he supported/wanted/foresaw 100 years of war. He just said that our soldiers could be there for 100 years as long as they weren't being attacked... kind of like they've been in Germany, Japan, and Korea for the last 50 years.
I might think that if they acted like they were... though even then, I'd doubt that they were since those ideas are crazy. The idea that a hard Left candidate whose mentor clearly hates America (at least "White" America) and whose wife spouts off anti-American jibberish might not be particularly fond of America seems pretty reasonable.
Do you believe that Obama is going to magically unite the country?
Do you believe that Obama is going to magically unite the country?
Well, not the entire country, just the ones who aren't racist jackasses who regurgitate lame-ass Republican talking points like so much smelt.
Apparently, gap teeth are actually considered pretty hot:
http://www.youqa.com/dental/1469-youqa-1.html
Apparently, gap teeth are actually considered pretty hot:
http://www.youqa.com/dental/1469-youqa-1.html
Hi! I've come from another blog, which will remain nameless. I'd like to point out that McArdle is a skinny lesbian-like person! How shameful for her!
There, now people won't have to accuse McArdle of making stuff up.
I didn't know McArdle was gay!
What a hoot! Perhaps we can have Dan Senor start a McCain-McArdle Veep rumor to replace the McCain-Rice rumors.
Anyone got Dan's cell phone number?
Of course, the Rice rumors will be popping back up by next week, so Megan will have to do in the interim.
Of course Kerry was a war Hero. Who could doubt it after hearing his harrowing story about Christmas in Cambodia.
And you know I think Obama shows great strength when he refuses to let the press disturb him at dinner.
And poor McCain is going to have to take government money to run his campaign driving big donors into 527s and Youtube virals. What a disaster for the Republicans. Socons are leaving his camp in droves.
Why Pat Buchanan even had some nice things to say about Obama.
Obama 08.
The Islamic radicals have 1400 years of war under their belts.
I think McCain needs to up the ante. 100 years is nothing.