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Media's sacred trust is sadly not a sacred trust fund

09 Apr 2008 05:47 pm

Don't I have obligations as a journalist beyond crass money grasping? Haven't I been invested with a sacred trust that shouldn't be held hostage to profit? Indeed I have: to report stories that are factually correct and more importantly, to the best of my knowledge and ability, fundamentally true. But I don't think that I have a duty to lose vast sums of money doing so--I already took quite a hefty paycut when I devoted my MBA to journalism. I gave, as they say, at the office. So did everyone else who took their college degree into journalism, from editors on down. Nor do newspaper owners exactly mint money.

But this is actually sort of besides the point that I was trying to make when I said that newspapers can't print stories readers don't want to read. Both my conservative and my liberal commenters have gotten bogged down in an argument about whether it is possible to make a profit selling stories of the kind Glenn Greenwald desires. I doubt it is on mass scale, but it sort of doesn't matter.

The object in writing these stories is presumably to get people to read them, not merely to acquire the moral satisfaction of a job well done. You cannot get people to read them if they do not acquire your paper. If you fill the paper with stories they do not want to read, they will not take your paper even if it is free. Just ask the people shoving gratis dailies at harassed commuters in subway stations.

You can slip stories that people do not particularly care to read in among a lot of stories that they do want to read. Editors do this all the time, which is how they win pulitzers; those series are generally things that very few people want to read, but impress other editors. Editors also like important stories about topics of vital national interest, which is why they run stories about things like John Yoo. In a general daily that is not owned by Murdochs, Sulzbergers, or Grahams, those stories are already getting quite a hefty readership subsidy from Barack Obama's bowling prowess and the parrot who phoned 911 during a house fire.

Writing more stories will not bring in the many, many subscribers who aren't reading the ones you've already printed. It may chase away casual readers who were willing to peruse one or two, but not eight in a month. (It will also chase those readers away from other vital topics, like mark-to-market accounting).

In short, Glenn Greenwald wants major media outlets to use more of their real estate to push the stories he wants. He claims that this is possible because in fact, readers want to read those stories, only the media is too lazy to print them. I aver that this is weapons-grade poppycock; media outlets have a very good idea of what people read, and if there were vast unmet demand for such stories, editors would have met it.

Comments (212)

Thank God for the web, where one can get paid to yammer on endlessly, stating the same thing over and over and over again, in a desperate and futile attempt to restore one's permanently lost credibility.

Good grief, Megan.

Think through the Yoo story and its ramifications and then ask yourself again if you think there would be a broad readership market if someone could thoughtfully articulate what it all means.

As Greenwald noted, "A Department of Justice memo, authored by John Yoo, was released which authorized torture and presidential lawbreaking. It was revealed that the Bush administration declared the Fourth Amendment of the Bill of Rights to be inapplicable to "domestic military operations" within the U.S."

That's news.

MM needs to go back a bit further if she wishes to attempt to regain credibility.

Some one should cut and paste all the comments from all the other posts on this same subject right here so no one has to waste time posting any tonight.

Record, meet broken.


Isn't this issue moot when everyone can set up their own blog and "publish" for a mass audience for less than the out-of-pocket cost of a cup of Starbucks coffee?

Face it, the mass media channels were important in the 18th, 19th, and early part of the 20th Century.

They are still important because of momentum and because their replacements have not fully geared up to replace them.

Mass media today are like the passenger railroads in the 1950s, everyone know they are obsolete, but the coup-de-grace have not been administered by the interstate highway / private car and the airline system.

So you refute Greenwald's argument by averring?

Wonderful! At least you admit you aren't serious.

People have thoughtfully articulated what it all means - other people just dont' read it because, as Megan is arguing, it's not the sort of thing that interests them. You think it's interesting because the "thoughtfully articulated" view to which you subscribe makes it an earth-shattering kaboom sort of thing, particularly because you accept the thoughtful articulations (cough) of fellows like Greenwald.

I actually agree, in a roundabout way, that journalists should do more to present weightier stories, but I suspect if they actually did that Greenwald would find his job of preaching fire and brimstone to the choir would be a little more difficult than he'd like. As with most of his ilk, it's a far easier to sit in his position and constantly bleat about how everything is f*cked up and it's all someone else's fault when people are so ill-informed and/or ideologically blindered that you can more easily get them to believe anything you say so long as you appeal to their beliefs.

At this point virtually no one is engaged in true journalism at this point. Greenwald, Koz, HuffPo, Free Republic, Newsbusters, and just about anyone else you can name out there in pundit land and the blogosphere are all just doling out slop for their fans to consume, it's just a different version of spoonfeeding Lohan and Angelina to the teenyboppers. It's also why Idiocracy is such a fantastic f*cking movie, because the extreme pandering of media and commentary on all sides that eventually strips any hint of objectivity from reporting is a big part of the way we get there.

Absolutely pathetic. Greenwald is not telling you what stories he wants you to write. He is criticizing the current state of the general mass media focus. Your attempts at defending the butt of his criticisms are just plain sad. Keep digging your hole MM. It's actually pretty fun to read.

"You can slip stories that people do not particularly care to read in among a lot of stories that they do want to read. Editors do this all the time, which is how they win pulitzers [sic]; those series are generally things that very few people want to read, but impress other editors."

Sure this is true. For instance we all know that no ever paid any attention to those stories about the mistreatment of American soldiers at Walter Reed Hospital, which won the Washington Post a Pulitzer the other day.

I aver that this is weapons-grade poppycock

I think we need to send in Joseph Wilson to find out if Greenwald has been purchasing yellowcake poppycock from anyone.

It's funny when Megan gets a bee in her bonnet, as she did over the Iraq stuff, and posts the exact same content four or five times in a row.

Her entire argument boils down to one sentence: "the public likes bowling stories."

For some reason that's taken her 3 or 4 posts to badly elaborate on, and she has yet to support it with any data.

Pro-tip: saying the exact same thing over and over again, without any justification whatsoever, is not convincing. It's pathetic.


"saying the exact same thing over and over again, without any justification whatsoever, is not convincing. It's pathetic."


Does this tip apply to candidates for public office?

I regularly check Sullivan and a few other thoughtful comentators. The last time I got lured onto this pathetic blog you were outlawing the use of the word Fascism. Things haven't improved.

It is a real shame that people are not engaging in Megan's argument--she is saying something that Glenn Greenwald and co should pay attention to. Nick Davies has written a book, Flat Earth News describing the way the news industry has become entirely corrupted through commercial pressures, based on some research he did with Cardiff University. Unfortunately it is about the UK industry but it I bet the picture will be recognisable in the US. It was an eye-opener.

The commercial pressures that Megan is describing are very real and very difficult to resist. The bottom line is that commercial pressures are putting pressure on costs--the biggest costs are journalist's time and these come under tremendous pressure and they are made to rely on more and more on news agencies and on stories being given to them on a plate by government and corporate PR/propaganda departments who are dutifully serving them up. These people have become very, very adept at shaping the news to their ends, and very few of the stories (The Growth Illusion.

One of the things that he flagged that Economic growth is generally achieved by efficiencies savings generated by substituting machines for people and since I have read that there is a very close relation ship between useful energy being used and economic activity--a very nearly linear relationship (for those that haven't come across this work it is clearly and concisely explained in the The Last Oil Shock).

Douthwaite observes (and this is only a part of his thesis) that industries that heavily rely on labour will start to look more and more expensive as manufactured goods become cheaper and cheaper as we become better and better at extracting these goods as a by product of pumping the carbon into atmosphere. (The book was written in the early '90s; he anticipated all the problems with global warming.)

It looks to me as if this is exactly the problem that Nick Davies is observing in the News industry. Of course people are also more an more time-poor from driving this hamster-wheel round more and more so they don't have time for engaging in anything that requires sustained attention. So the media inevitably will have another set of pressures to provide entertainment on the consumer side.

It is very difficult to break this. You folks should sneer less and listen more to diverse viewpoints. Especially when you are sneering at two other classes of people for being intellectually lazy.

Megan, please stop. You keep bringing that dull butter knife of yours to a gunfight.

You don't have to fill each newspaper with a dissertation of Yoo's legal briefings to make a difference, just have the balls to call things as they are. The MSM has basically become the clearing house for political spin - facts don't exist anymore, just opinion. The media has ceased being the referee that keeps the political establishment from beating up and taking advantage of the public.

Greenwald is basically arguing that the media doesn't have to bore us to tell us the truth. Call John Yoo a damn liar and a traitor and be done with it. There will still be a lot of space left to print about Obama's bowling score.

Chris:

Nah we don't have to listen to MM at all. She's a right wing hack, LA-LA-LA-LA, I can't hear her. All I do is read Koz and Atrios, ahahahahahhahaha

"Players learn about life and physical sciences, art and music, math, geography and history and english while they play."

MM,

I think the success of Carmen Sandiego seriously unhinges any point you're trying to make.
http://www.kidsclick.com/descrip/carmen_think.htm

Megan is working under an economist's common simplistic "rational man" framework of decision-making. I actually happen to agree that most people want trivial vapid gossip. But the question is, why do they want it? People's desires and constituted by culture and the press is a significant element of the cultural apparatus. So what people want is in part a result of what the press gives them. The relationship between the press and the public is circular and self-reinforcing, not the simple-minded one-way model Megan presents.

Now the second question is, how did this culture arise? In my opinion it is a natural outcome of the intersection of human nature and the marketplace. The tabloidisation (sorry) of the mainstream press started when the press became answerable to the market in the '80s. This is when the corporate owners of news organization began to view them as profit centers rather than loss leaders working in public interest. The human nature pressure stems from the fact that people will naturally pay more attention to whatever is louder and more sensational. So in a competitive market, the media product bit by bit became louder, more gossipy, more oriented toward "human interest" stories, ignoring hard stories in favor of vapid character vignets and mindless repetition of talking points.

And the third, and most important, question is: can a democracy function in this environment? It is this question that most concerns me and, I suspect, Glenn Greenwald.

The last time I got lured onto this pathetic blog you were outlawing the use of the word Fascism.

Well, that's 'cause Megan's, like, totally libertarian. Obviously.

The market for hard news is actually oversupplied, since so many talented people are willing to make financial sacrifices to write it. The instant that a niche market for information opens up, there is intense competition to exploit it.

Greenwald could not be more misguided in his futile attempts to guilt the marketplace into expanding.

Argh, OK, I promise from now on I will proofread my comments before I click Post... Sorry about the weird grammar and everything...

[Second time trying this.]

Ooops: forgot I was writing HTML: the sentence that finished with a '(' should read:

"These people have become very, very adept at shaping the news to their ends, and very few of the stories (

An indictment of journalists:

The MSM has basically become the clearing house for political spin - facts don't exist anymore, just opinion

And from the same comment, a recommendation for journalists seeking to escape the indictment:

Call John Yoo a damn liar and a traitor and be done with it.

Except that, well, the second of these sentences is an example of the first, not the antidote to it.

phasearth: Nick Davies (see my above post) also said the 1980s were a key time when the news business became much more profit oriented. In the UK it is put down to Murdoch breaking the print unions.

Chris Dornan that was a good post but this is your argument, not Megan's. What you wrote is only vaguely related to what Megan wrote.

That journalists rely more on PR and what people whisper in their ears is certainly true, and perhaps at least partly related to commercial pressures, but Megan didn't touch on that at all.

Her entire point was that things are working as intended because the public loves bowling stories and the media delivers them.

*Your* argument is an interesting one. Hers is not.

If you look at the economic situation faced by the typical news room "we're giving the public what it wants" is almost absurd on its face.

Now the second question is, how did this culture arise? In my opinion it is a natural outcome of the intersection of human nature and the marketplace. The tabloidisation (sorry) of the mainstream press started when the press became answerable to the market in the '80s. This is when the corporate owners of news organization began to view them as profit centers rather than loss leaders working in public interest. The human nature pressure stems from the fact that people will naturally pay more attention to whatever is louder and more sensational. So in a competitive market, the media product bit by bit became louder, more gossipy, more oriented toward "human interest" stories, ignoring hard stories in favor of vapid character vignets and mindless repetition of talking points.
The problem is, this is historically wrong on every level. THe mainstream press has become less, not more, tabloidized. Do you remember Hearst and Pulitzer? News organizations have been profitable for a long time; they didn't suddenly come to be seen as profit centers. Businesses that lose money don't stay in business. (You have to be a loss leader for something. What would a newspaper be a loss leader for?)
And the third, and most important, question is: can a democracy function in this environment? It is this question that most concerns me and, I suspect, Glenn Greenwald.
No, I think what concerns Glenn Greenwald is that the left isn't successful enough in this environment. Do you really think Greenwald is the first one who woke up and realized to his horror that the public simply isn't interested in the things he thinks are so important? Remember Bob Dole's "Where's the outrage?" about Bill Clinton?

In fact, this is so perfect that I need to quote it. It's from the NYTimes in October 1996:

DOLE IS IMPLORING VOTERS TO 'RISE UP' AGAINST THE PRESS
Sounding like a crusader, Bob Dole implored his audiences today to ''rise up'' against the nation's news organizations, which he said were protecting the Clinton Administration, and be outraged that President Clinton had, in Mr. Dole's words, violated the public trust.

[...]

At another point he asked: ''When do the American people rise up and say, 'Forget the media in America! We're going to make up our minds! You're not going to make up our minds!' This is about saving our country!''

Singling out The New York Times for the second straight day, Mr. Dole went on: ''We are not going to let the media steal this election. We're going to win this election. The country belongs to the people, not The New York Times.''

[...]

As Mr. Dole sweeps across the South, he sounds like a man who believes that he has been done a great injustice and simply cannot fathom that voters are not as distraught as he is that someone as undeserving as he suggests President Clinton is might be re-elected. His tone has become increasingly combative, and today he likened the campaign to war.
It goes on. He sounds exactly like Greenwald.

Chris Dornan, just read your post, thank you. I agree, cost pressure is another effect of the market that is driving down quality. I do want to warn you against underestimating Greenwald. He certainly lays into the press, but he is extremely careful to avoid any analysis of the causes of the behavior he criticizes. In fact, see

(1) My original post had nothing to do with whether profit motive and ratings was a key reason why the media behaves this way. So if that's the only point they were making - as you claim - why would they think they were disagreeing with me?

Margalis, does the term "revealed preference" (both on the supple and demand side) mean nothing to you?

You had me up until the end. The fact that most newspapers do not make a lot of money, and in fact many are losing money these days, seems evidence that they do not know very well what kind of stories people want to read.

Greenwald's may not be the answer. But neither is what they are doing...

Because I am not familiar with Megan McArdle's work regarding economic issues, I do not want to be too harsh on her, but playing both sides of the issue in her recent column "Down the Memory Hole" (April 7) did not enhance her reputation. Based on the observations she has made about her feud with Glenn Greenwald, Ms. McArdle has become disillusioned with her own profession, and yet she feels compelled to defend the corpse that rots around her.

It is difficult to disagree with reader Will Allen's argument that the profit motive is most responsible for bad journalism, but that argument is not much of a defense for the banality of the mainstream media. There have always been media barons such as Randolph Hearst and Rupert Murdoch, who represented the worst side of journalism, but there was a period of time in the 1960's and 1970's during which corporation profits were not the only controlling force for television news journalists.

I understand that cable television is responsible for a significant decline in the number of people who watch the news on the major television networks, and I understand that the Internet has been responsible for a significant decline in the number of people who read major national newspapers and periodicals, and I understand that the profit motive induces media corporations to cater to the lowest common denominator, but the end result is that the mainstream media are a cesspool.

Ms. McArdle assures us that media corporations know what they are doing by pumping sludge to the masses, and that must be why the television networks are so unsuccessful at gauging the likely success of television programs. I have my own theories about the political motivations of the people who control most of the mainstream media, but because I do not have 100 million dollars to invest in a media outlet, I will concede that the profit motive is the primary reason that the mainstream media have so little of value to offer.

Ms. McArdle is not responsible for the sorry state of our mass media, but unless her editor told her to defend this crap, she is part of the problem. This latest insinuation that her job is her charity is a stretch, but if Ms. McArdle thinks that she already has given her heart and soul to her profession, I would think she would be more concerned about upholding her ethics as a journalist. However, Ms. McArdle is more popular than I could ever hope to be, and if Ms. McArdle's readers want her to remain just the way she is, and if Ms. McArdle wants to remain true to these readers, they have a match.

David Nieporent,

I think what concerns Glenn Greenwald is that the left isn't successful enough in this environment.

There is no evidence at all that Greenwald is a leftist. In fact, I read him almost daily, and I suspect he is closer to a libertarian, but that's just a somewhat informed guess. He is very careful not to reveal his political views and has made same critiques of the press vis-a-vis Ron Paul, Clinton and Obama. He is not a shill for the left.

THe mainstream press has become less, not more, tabloidized. Do you remember Hearst and Pulitzer? News organizations have been profitable for a long time; they didn't suddenly come to be seen as profit centers. Businesses that lose money don't stay in business.

Yes, and during the time of Hearst and Pulitzer the press was tabloid and sensational. I was talking about major news organization like CBS News in the 60s and 70s. "Loss leader" was an imprecise phrase, I agree. I meant, most serious news organizations did not exist primarily to make money. They were usually subsidized one way or another.

Not sure what your point is with the Bob Dole quote. The right's accusation of liberal bias in the press is not news to anyone.

Run for profit or funded by a trust fund, a majority of americans thought Saddam was behind 9-11. I have never viewed "journalists"/the media in the same light since.

Oh yeah the media is very healthy, as is american democracy! A model for the rest of the world...to be exported by force!

Margalis, does the term "revealed preference" (both on the supple and demand side) mean nothing to you?

The supple side? Mmmmm....

Revealed preference? You mean how Glenn is much more popular than Megan, as a totally random example? So that must mean that consumers much prefer what Glenn is offering? And that most consumers think Glenn's arguments are much stronger than Megan's?

You mean that?

Geez. Is there some virtue in repeating yourself? The more you write, Ms. McArdle, the more you reveal your ignorance and your utter devotion to it.

I suggest you do some research into the recent history of journalism, since Watergate. It is embarrassingly obvious that you are clueless about the subject.

Ever hear of the fourth estate? Any clue why the media were designated as such? Is it just one of those charming, retro notions that is incompatible with present-day free-market thinking?

Run for profit or funded by a trust fund, a majority of americans thought Saddam was behind 9-11

That's because the editors know exactly what the public wants, and what the public wants is false stories linking Saddam to 9/11.

True story.

On an earlier thread a question was raised as to whether Yoo might be deemed a war criminal under the principles of the Nuremberg Trials. Here is a description of the Alstoetter matter: it suggests that Yoo may have a problem.
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/Alstoetter.htm

In the Justice trial, American prosecutors sought to demonstrate a pattern of judicial and prosecutorial support for Nazi programs of persecution, sterilization, extermination, and other gross violations of human rights. In order to prove an individual defendant guilty, prosecutors had to show that the defendant consciously furthered these human rights abuses.

In general, a person is held to intend the results which are the natural consequences of their actions.

I think GG's argument is less that MSM's focus on trivialities is a market failure than a political failure. He believes they are a diversion camouflaging constitutional crime so that it goes, if not exactly unnoticed, then unchecked.

The camouflage is all the more effective because "serious" journalists, the very people who'd tell us if there were something really wrong, have gone to the dogs themselves and now outdrudge drudge. The polity then cannot protect itself from the abuser of power because somehow the First Amendment is no longer the bulwark it once was.

Scolding serious journalist to do better is an acceptable response even though doing so dogmatically in an insufferable tone of voice may not win converts.

There is however an obviously dangerous implication to the notion that people aren't buying as much prune juice as they should because the inferior juice have unfairly more popular taste, packaging, shelf space, advertising budgets, etc. have an authority require that they do.

Ironically, for people who think this diagnosis and remedy are spot on, among all the other problems, it is an approach that embodies the very ill it would cure. The political discussion turns to what forms of regulation -- campaign spending limits, enforcement, donor relationships, etc. that a good deal of air time is spent on these trivialities instead of on policy substance.

Megan, what exactly is your point? that americans are dumb and therefore you should feed them crap? from an economist's point of view, you are dead-on. but this is effectively the death of journalism and without real journalism we may as well drop the whole 'greatest democracy in the world' charade. pretty depressing and it seems like you are way too happy about this.

This is really Meghan's cardinal virtue: she will not allow herself to appear just a little foolish. When the foolishness starts, she doubles down -- again, and again, and again -- until she looks like the silliest damn person to ever walk upright. I kind of admire that.

This letter may seem a bit long but Mr. Glenn Greenwald's uncongenial screeds cannot be adequately described in less than a long essay. First and foremost, sometimes I think that Greenwald is simply a willing pawn of those callous individuals who declare martial law, suspend elections, and round up dissidents (i.e., anyone who does not buy his lie that the kids on the playground are happy to surrender to the school bully). I typically drop that willing-pawn notion, however, whenever I remember that what really irks me is that Greenwald has presented us with a Hobson's choice. Either we let him break down traditional values or he'll destroy the sovereignty of all nations and every feeling or expression of patriotism.

There is an unpleasant fact, painful to the tender-minded, that one can deduce from the laws of nature. This fact is also conclusively established by direct observation. It is a fact so obvious that rational people have always known it and no one doubted it until Greenwald and his lickspittles started trying to deny it. The fact to which I am referring states that it's really astounding that Greenwald has found a way to work the words "sphygmomanometric" and "plethysmographically" into his methods of interpretation. However, you may find it even more astounding that he knows how to lie. It's too bad he doesn't yet understand the ramifications of lying. Delirious dangerous-types who jump on everything that is written, said, or even implied and label it as either mawkish or termagant might not recognize the incongruities in Greenwald's demands, but Greenwald has been trying hard to protect what has become a lucrative racket for him. Unfortunately, that lucrative racket has a hard-to-overlook consequence: it will rebrand local churches as faith-based emporia teeming with impulse-buy items sooner than you think.

If one believes statements like, "Greenwald is a refined gentleman with the soundest education and morals you can imagine," one is, in effect, supporting parasitic oligarchs. His precepts are not the solution to our problem. They are the problem. I am now in a position to define what I mean when I say that his outrage at complaints about him is indicative of his self-esteem and value system. What I mean is that I frequently wish to tell Greenwald that he uses a rather money-grubbing definition of "epididymodeferentectomy". But being a generally genteel person, however, I always bite my tongue. He harbors a sense of entitlement and an expectation of success beyond reason. Regular readers of my letters probably take that for granted, but if I am to serve on the side of Truth, I must explain to the population at large that I am truly at a loss for words when he asserts that he answers to no one. He can't possibly be serious. I, speaking as someone who is not an unregenerate chiseler, suspect that the real story here is that we've tolerated Greenwald's laughable snow jobs long enough. It's time to lose our patience and chill our kindness. It's time to call for proper disciplinary action against Greenwald and his flunkies. It's time to shout to the world that he wants to demand that loyalty to cocky nonentities supersedes personal loyalty. It gets better: He believes that he can ignore rules, laws, and protocol without repercussion. I guess no one's ever told him that his formula for faddism is more viperine than ever. The sooner he comes to grips with that reality, the better for all of us.

I suspect that Greenwald's zealots explain everything through the lens of Greenwald's disingenuous and ideologically loaded nostrums, even though that presupposes a dialectical intertwinement to which a sick turn of mind is impervious. Greenwald likes to quote all of the saccharine, sticky moralisms about "human rights" and the evils of propagandism. But as soon as we stop paying attention, he invariably instructs his subalterns to create an unwelcome climate for those of us who are striving to tell you things that he doesn't want you to know. Then, when someone notices, the pattern repeats from the beginning. Though this game may seem perverse beyond belief to any sane individual it makes perfect sense in light of Greenwald's sexist smear tactics. I call upon him to stop his oppression, lies, immorality, and debauchery. I call upon him to be a man of manners, principles, honour, and purity. And finally, I call upon him to forgo his desire to eliminate the plebiscitary mechanisms which ensure a free and democratic society.

Greenwald's policies are based on two fundamental errors. They assume that Greenwald's treatises are Holy Writ and they promote the mistaken idea that hooliganism is the key to world peace. Let me put it this way: inasmuch as I disagree with Greenwald's accusations and find his ad hominem attacks offensive, I am happy to meet Greenwald's speech with more speech and, if necessary, continue this discussion until the truth shines. Greenwald's list of sins is long and each one deserves more space than I have here. Therefore, rather than describe each one individually, I'll summarize by stating that his reasoning is circular and therefore invalid. In other words, he always begins an argument with his conclusion (e.g., that there should be publicly financed centers of vigilantism) and therefore -- not surprisingly -- he always arrives at that very conclusion. So, sorry for being so long-winded in this letter, but this serves as a reminder that I am skeptical of Mr. Glenn Greenwald's efforts to produce an ophidian definition of "stereophotogrammetry".

As all you media types do is glorified stenography on serious issues (too hard for you to understand?) or tabloid reporting on unserious issues you should go broke.

Wow. Rick E's comment does not pass the Turing test. What on Earth is he (it?) talking about?

jw,

It's an obvious spoof of Greewald's critics, i.e, satire, given that all his critics do is make pompous ad hominem attacks. But it may also have been a compilation of their comments done randomly by a computer.

hahaha, this comment thread has nothing but vitriol for megan and discussion of someone else's writing.

Thank you for that massacio. Actual facts, how refreshing.

Yoo's pretty safe though, I think.

Dear Ms. Bachelard, I have been warned that I should not enter into a pissing war with a skunk. Please let me know, Ms. Bachelard, if you are a skunk. If you are not a skunk, Ms. Bachelard, please do not be so angry that your beloved Ms. McArdle does not know of your devotion to her.

With your most recent post, Ms. Bachelard, I am reminded of a song by Joan Armatrading called "I Love It When You Call Me Names", and maybe Ms. McArdle will also be reminded of this same song. Maybe it can be your song, Ms. Bachelard.

I decided to heed your advice, Ms. Bachelard, and I did some research on the history of journalism since Watergate. As a result of this research, Ms. Bachelard, I learned that the profession of journalism has gone down the toilet, and yet the product is still quite satisfying for the fan-base of the popular press.

You do not need to feel embarrassed for me, Ms. Bachelard, when you have Ms. McArdle to defend. I will confess that I have heard about the fourth estate, Ms. Bachelard, and it has fallen on some hard times. Have you ever heard of a non sequitur, Ms. Bachelard? Do you know the meaning of the word "defamatory", Ms. Bachelard?

It's quite amusing to watch wingnuts like McArdle, Drezner, et. al., shitting their pants in fury at Greenwald's dead-on assessments of them.

You're a fucking collaborator, Megan. No better than the Nazis. And the nice thing about those "show trials" in Nuremberg is the number of guilty motherfuckers that wound up hanging by their neck.

I'm a Journalamist!

Watch me journalamise on da Tee Bee!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll4N_pvoSXI

There is no evidence at all that Greenwald is a leftist. In fact, I read him almost daily, and I suspect he is closer to a libertarian, but that's just a somewhat informed guess. He is very careful not to reveal his political views and has made same critiques of the press vis-a-vis Ron Paul, Clinton and Obama. He is not a shill for the left.

Heh...

Greenwald has revealed his political views. They are all over his work and in his bio if you care to read and are capable of comprehending what you read. It's now wonder an airhead like David Nieporent reads other sirheads. Greenwald was, and still is, a conservative. He rankles at being decribed a libertarian but is extremely passionate about civil liberties, obviously. Conservatives used to be that way once, remember? Call him a civil libertarian if you must but shill for the left? You are as obtuse as can be. His very first articles were in Pat Buchanan's American Conservative Magazine, for Chissakes!. What does that tell you? Shill for the left? Come to think of it, name one. And why would the left need a shill? They aren't running the short con. I tend to think, like most people of any intelligence and intellctual honesty, he woke up one day and realized that the political right in this country had left him and become something unrecognizable to anyone who is a true conservative. Something ugly, extremist and dangerous and without any fundamental philosophy, and that it must be destroyed. Watch it. It's being done right before your very eyes. It's not that difficult. It's mostly an act of self-destruction with vacuous moderates like McArdle and Drezner laying down smoke to cover the retreat before the final rout. Good riddance.

To the certain members of the right-wing everyone is a leftist. Against the war? Must be a fringe leftist! Think Bush is a bad president? Must be a fringe leftist! Against torture? Must be a fringe leftist!

What they call leftists we call "most Americans."

It's truly delusional. They honestly believe that their views are shared by all but a tiny minority of communist radicals.

Megan, there are a number of slots one can choose to occupy in the contemporary media system. The slot of broadcaster or broadcast editor is one. It's very hard to do and requires talent, but the stories it produces are usually stupid (unless you're at PBS or 60 Minutes, or The Daily Show of course).

Way out at another fringe of the spectrum somewhere is being a blogger. And there are many different kinds of bloggers. But as you have noted before, one thing that certain blogs can do better than any other source is provide a comprehensive in-depth searchable guide to a specific issue in which they have exceptional expertise.

Which is why I'm kind of disappointed that it really looks like you're not going to get to that question of why you think that experts agree the NEJM Iraq war-death study was so much better than the Lancet studies. You didn't really do that issue comprehensively in the way that Ezra Klein has done health-care reform.

I completely sympathize with your point that there are performance incentives and disincentives in each kind of media job. For example, you just generated over 170 comments by posting again about your beef with Glenn Greenwald. Those numbers are being driven by angry visits from Glenn's partisans, and he in turn has been rewarded for being extremely angry and obstreperous all the time and attracting a certain segment of the Permanently Angry blog audience. So there may be less of an audience for your in-depth assessment of the Iraq death studies. Maybe you even get paid less if you spend your time on that stuff.

But please recognize: This Way Lies Madness. The more you write posts that basically garner responses only because they make Glenn Greenwald's readers mad, the further you descend into the ideosphere of a Bill O'Reilly. And I mean that not in the sense of the particular political ideology, but of O'Reilly's fists-swinging, brain-frozen approach to political discourse.

I guess I just mean that this sequence of posts seems to illustrate your point about one's responsibilities as a journalist, or even as a writer in general, in a particularly sharp way. You could go on writing things that just make some people mad and generate endless repetitive debates. But ultimately that's empty and hollow. I don't think you got into journalism to be empty and hollow.

Hahahah! Greenwald fans say the darndest things.

Boy, they just love working themselves up into a self-righteous lather and delivering spittle flecked denunciations of their political enemies.

Of course, you can't work up a really good fury without a heavy dose of hyperbolic exaggeration, and therefore the interrogation/'torture' techniques that are designed not to cause physical harm are described as 'deadly', the techniques authorized by the government and conflated with the abuses of Abu Ghraib and, of course, everyone even tangentially associated with or defensive of the use of these techniques are Nazis who are going to be hung after Nuremberg style trials.

In reality, the techniques are far more mild than say, the abusive behaviors like prison rape that are allowed to occur every day in civilian prisons without much outcry, or even the kind of torture shown on prime time television on 24.

This might have something to do with the fact that stories about this 'torture' don't get as much attention as Greenwald and company would like, but this dose of perspective would interfere with their ability to work up a good, fun, self-righteous fury, so of course it has to be ignored in favor of paranoid consipracies about the supposedly right wing media killing the story, which they very much prefer.

One thing I'm noticing here is that there seems to be a consensus that crosses left, right, and center. This consensus is that the drive for profits is what has driven the content of media coverage. The question I have for the less-libertarian amongst us is this:

If profits are what is driving the quality of news downward, then doesn't that mean that a disproportionate number of people are interested in the trivial coverage?

After all, you can't have greater profits in the news business without first getting more readers/viewers.

I should point out, though, that this is not to say that the public actually does prefer the weaker stories. After all, news media profits in recent years have largely been going down, not up. While profits in the cable news industry have been going up, much of that has been a result of the fact that the cable news networks are entering more markets globally, as well as the fact that they are regularly adding new niche networks (which largely offer better coverage along the lines of what all of us in this thread would like).

That said, it's worth pointing out that primary coverage this year led CNN's profits to double in the month of February, and ratings in that month went up on all three cable news networks. It's also worth pointing out that CNN is the network which has arguably been the most hyperfocused on the primaries, with its "Ballot Bowl" and "Election Center" shows. Given the significantly higher ratings the networks have seen for the primary coverage, it is a rational (though perhaps incorrect) decision for them to think that Obama bowling is as or more likely to draw viewers as the Yoo memos.

Margalis: Thank you much for your complements in the other thread.

One more thing:
From a personal preference point of view, I just want to second every word that brooksfoe just wrote.

The other troubling implication of Megan's line of argument is that she's saying it is inevitable that journalism driven by the profit motive and funded by advertising will be vapid.

This is essentially an argument for massive public funding of broadcast journalism, or aggressive regulation. If it is left to advertising-funded, for-profit broadcasters to determine the shape of the political debate, that debate will be stupid and misinformed. Hence we need publicly funded, not-for-profit broadcasters to be at least as wealthy and powerful as the for-profit ones. As I recall, CNN's and FOXNews's budgets are well over $1 billion a year each.

Alternatively, one could return to old-fashioned regulation requiring broadcasters to broadcast at least 1 hour of nightly news, and a return to the Fairness Doctrine. This would be confusing to implement, obviously, in the era of 1000-channel cable broadcasting.

McArdle has a peculiar cat-like genius for climbing up trees of irrationality from which she cannot climb down. Instead she boasts about the great distance she can see from her lofty perch of absurdity. This is what comes of using her argumentative hammer to drive every problem peg into the uniform hole of her grand theory of selfishnesss.

Unfortunately, there is no fire department for neo-liberals stuck in blunders. McArdle has been reduced to saying that journalist must write junk to accommodate the lowest common denominator of public taste and that the press has no civic responsibility. I can't wait for this principle to be applied more extensively so that America can more better resemble a fully libertarian state like Somalia.

This Way Lies Madness. The more you write posts that basically garner responses only because they make Glenn Greenwald's readers mad, the further you descend into the ideosphere of a Bill O'Reilly.

But that is fine according to McArdle's crack-brained grand unified theory of personal selfishness. Why should she care how she gets her traffic? It's all about her personal incentives.
McArdle has no concept whatever of the public good, so why should she give a flying flip about how she attracts eyeballs to her blog?

Greenwald speaks intelligently in defense of the Constitution and our liberties. McArdle speaks stupidly in defense of selfish behavior. I'll go with Greenwald any day.

I don't know where to begin.

You "gave at the office" by becoming a journalist? Holy crap, you actually think that choosing to be become a journalist was a public service in itself? I'm not sure which is more galling: your blithe confidence that you could be making a fortune now in any other career, or your belief that you yourself are a gift to journalism and therefore, to the world.

And under what economic model do "readers want" self-justifying posts like this?

"Nor do newspaper owners exactly mint money ..."

But of course they do. Have you ever owned one? I have. Net profit margins of 30% anually.

No business, not even insurance, affords these kinds of riskless returns on investment. In fact, large swaths of American journalism is owned by insurance companies ... who know how to count pennies and balance books.

They know that owning a newspaper is in fact a license to print money.

Greenwald speaks intelligently in defense of the Constitution and our liberties

The long-winded data do not support that conclusion.

-

Does anybody else find it odd that the person making this argument works for a low-circulation magazine, for which she most recently wrote a story about assessing the statistics of civilian body counts in a warzone?

Nobody is suggesting that People magazine start writing hard-hitting stories on John Yoo. They're suggesting that the shredding of the constitution in order to torture prisoners should be something of a big story for newspapers like the New York Times (which has no comics page, no horoscopes and doesn't publish gambling lines on football games, all of which readers must like because other newspapers do this).

I'd also argue that if the NY Post had been running back pages that featured torture stories and illegal behavior on the part of the President--as they were happy to do when there was no illegal behavior on the part of the last president, then people would be paying attention.

There is nothing dry or uninteresting in stories about torture done by secret agents in back rooms. How that came to be is part of that story.

What's really going on here is an unwillingness of the mainstream press to confront the fact that Bush has exploited American Exceptionalism in order to engage in the tactics of dictators in banana republics. The media's unwillingness to discard this narrative is what is going on. And the republicans exploit this on issues ranging from hegemony to health care.

OTOH, Britney Spears is on the cover of the April Atlantic.

People are not interested in hard news (think city council meetings) except for one-off events, so hard news cannot pay the bills in the media business model.

The only audience you can get successfully, day in and day out, news or no news, is the soap opera audience, which is big but not a majority even of women (about 40% of women). So that's what you write for, and that's what edits every public debate.

If it doesn't interest soap opera women, it doesn't have legs, and it won't survive in the public forum.

The remedy is ridicule of this audience, not of the media that has to write for it. The media know very well what they're doing.

Whether there's another business model for news that will work is another question. There may not be. But at least their tastes won't edit everything.

also the title is kinda funny, given just how many low circulation magazines exist only because they are subsidized by rich people.

The media is a market - you sell a product and you are supposed to tell the truth about it. If you don't tell the truth and people get mad, you lose business and possibly get in trouble. If you don't tell the truth and people like what you sell anyway, they shrug it off and keep buying.

Journalistic integrity? Like everything else, only if the benefits outweigh the negatives.

Megan is correct to an extent.

If the media was really covering stories people wanted to read/watch/listen to why is it shrinking?

It is shrinking because they are not publishing what people want to know.

And what do people want to read? Look at traffic patterns on the www for a clue.

Why is Limbaugh getting rich and Air America dying. Another clue.

Why is the CNN audience shrinking and FOX increasing? Simple - FOX wants to have a mix that appeals to Americans in the middle. Left Center, Right. CNN? Left and Lefter.

Why are journalists 85% to the left? Because Walter Duranty got a Pulitzer. And you know how that ended.

BTW when people don't even know (so many here) what John Yoo even wrote about it is obvious that even for stories people here are interested in the media has been dishing up moldy slops.

Did Yoo shred the Constitution? How could he? He doesn't make policy.

What was Yoo asked to do? To research the applicable laws national and international dealing with torture and irregular warfare.

And what is the number one rule dealing with irregular warfare? They can be summarily shot after a military court. And how rigorous does that court need to be? It can be done on a battlefield.

Why is that a rule of war? Because irregular warfare that does not conform to the rules of irregular warfare endangers non-combatants.

Now if you can kill them on the spot why would torture be out of bounds?

Now that may be a true legal opinion. It says nothing about whether it is wise. It is obvious that our military leaders consider it unwise, despite the legality, because that is not the practice of our military.

Why don't they torture and execute if they have the legal power? It impedes surrender. And we want them to surrender. We want easy fights - not fights to the death. We want to beat them not kill them. A man who changes sides is more valuable in terms of victory than a dead man. Dead men don't change sides.

Now in all this uproar over Yoo has any one of note covered the facts well enough so that at least the majority of the audience gets it?

I see no evidence here.

"The Britney Show (Part 8)
The last of eight installments of an NYU panel on paparazzi and celebrity. Hosted by David Samuels, author of “Shooting Britney,” The Atlantic’s April cover" -theATLantic.com

OTOH, Britney Spears is on the cover of the April Atlantic.


Posted by jayackroyd | April 10, 2008 8:02 AM

wow, that wasn't a joke...

Let me add. In this war which side is known as the torturing side? Which side executes civilians at random as policy? Which side is notorious for using human shields?

So for all the fools screaming Yoo, Yoo, Yoo, Yoo, and Bush too, why no outrage at the random mass murder of civilians as a military tactic?

Because the other side is using a tactic well known here. It is: give up or the puppy dies.

And the puppy murderers are the friends of so many here.

Now in all this uproar over Yoo has any one of note covered the facts well enough so that at least the majority of the audience gets it?

Yes, several blogs, like Firedoglake and Glen Greenwald, authored by knowledgeable lawyers, have covered the reckless and unsupported character of Yoo's legal recommendations authorizing torture, which were subsequently withdrawn by his DoJ colleagues.

It is against the Geneva conventions to torture captives, no matter what their combatant status, regular, irregular, or extra-large.

The Bush administration has committed war crimes by any reasonable standard, starting with a planned war of aggression. Because the press and public supported these crimes in the heat of anger over the 9/11 attacks, there is a widespread desire to forget about them. McArdle would like to forget that the Predident she voted for TWICE is a war criminal.

But the blood of those killed and tortured by Bush cries out for justice. These crimes will never be forgotten.

First off, have YOU read his book on presidential power? I have.

BTW when people don't even know (so many here) what John Yoo even wrote about it is obvious that even for stories people here are interested in the media has been dishing up moldy slops.

Did Yoo shred the Constitution? How could he? He doesn't make policy.

One of the things that makes his role so noteworthy is that he was used by the policy-makers to circumvent normal justice department channels. The policy-makers had made the decision to torture people, but knew that there would be objections, because it is both wrong and illegal. So they sought out someone in the Justice Department who would write what Addington and Cheney wanted written. The result is stunning news--that the US secretly abrogated US law, and treaties it had signed and tortured people. The process of using Yoo is also very big news. The executive used the DoJ to rubberstamp illegal policies. (We know this, for sure, because the DoJ eventually repudiated the memo.)

What was Yoo asked to do? To research the applicable laws national and international dealing with torture and irregular warfare.

No, he was asked to come up with a legal justification for torturing people.

And what is the number one rule dealing with irregular warfare? They can be summarily shot after a military court. And how rigorous does that court need to be? It can be done on a battlefield.

Why is that a rule of war? Because irregular warfare that does not conform to the rules of irregular warfare endangers non-combatants.

Now if you can kill them on the spot why would torture be out of bounds?

Yoo didn't make this stunningly bad argument. You summarily shoot guys in uniform, too, without getting into trouble. That has nothing to with laws and treaties banning torture.


Now that may be a true legal opinion. It says nothing about whether it is wise. It is obvious that our military leaders consider it unwise, despite the legality, because that is not the practice of our military.

No, it is not legal. The DoJ says it is not legal. John McCain's justification for supporting the president in not requiring the CIA to follow the US military's rules of interrogation is that torture is illegal anyway, and the CIA is not permitted to engage in it.

Why don't they torture and execute if they have the legal power?

They don't have the legal power.

It impedes surrender. And we want them to surrender. We want easy fights - not fights to the death. We want to beat them not kill them. A man who changes sides is more valuable in terms of victory than a dead man. Dead men don't change sides.

This is also a stunningly bad argument. This is the ineffectiveness argument against the use of torture in interrogation. Interrogators say that you get the best, most complete and most reliable information from a subject that comes to trust you.

Now in all this uproar over Yoo has any one of note covered the facts well enough so that at least the majority of the audience gets it?

Sure. Greenwald has. Who IS a lawyer. His point is that the traditional media has not, and that it should--that it is much bigger news than a political burglary or a presidential dalliance.

So you refute Greenwald's argument by averring?

Wonderful! At least you admit you aren't serious.

Actually, I believe that all Greenwald had was an assertion, which Megan's appropriately dealt with.

Megan, there's really no point in trying to argue or even discuss anything with Greenwald. Ask just about anyone who has--Althouse, Patterico, Reynolds, Ace, Goldstein. All he'll do is re-work his argument and say that you really just don't get it. He's probably the biggest sophist on the web, with a massive group of followers who defend his every word and move. Even when he was caught sockpuppeting with four or five aliases, none of his fans that I know of criticized him in the least. He provides them intellectual cover for their anger and bile; they’ll never admit that a view other than his has any legitimacy whatsoever.

It's cute that many of the commenters think that what the MSM really needs to do is focus more on their liberal issues. I mean, 90% of journalists are liberal, but surely things would be better if they could just capture that last 10%!

I think the real lack in journalism today (and probably going back quite some time) is a distinct lack of curiousity by reporters. They just don't have a knack for knowing when something interesting comes up, something that should be followed up on. They don't have that little voice that says, "Hey, I bet that's something my readers would be interested in. I should follow up on it."

Why this is the case, I don't know for sure, but it's probably for several reasons. Ideological conformity is one, I'm sure. When almost everybody you know thinks the same way you do, you will have a hard time knowing what others might be interested in. It might be the way journalists are trained, with a focus on "narrative" over "interest." If something comes up that is interesting but doesn't fit the narrative, then it is likely to be ignored or minimized. It could also simply be a factor of not having enough free time to look into things the reporter thinks would be interesting but are not part of the current assignment.