[Jon Henke]
The Virtuous Republic argues that "red light cameras have nothing to do with safety. They are simply means of taxation that you the voter have no say in." He's talking about this story...
Six U.S. cities have been found guilty of shortening the amber cycles below what is allowed by law on intersections equipped with cameras meant to catch red-light runners. The local governments in question have ignored the safety benefit of increasing the yellow light time and decided to install red-light cameras, shorten the yellow light duration, and collect the profits instead.
Indeed, the incentives involved for the government are very perverse. If you reduce the yellow light duration, you'll get a bit more revenue. If you lengthen the yellow light duration, you'll reduce accidents and save lives. So public officials choose to....reduce yellow light duration?
[insert comment here about the monopoly power of government]
Shortening the yellow light below the minimum time is clearly wrong - i.e., illegal and unethical - but what about the more general disparity in yellow light duration? Some yellow lights last 4 seconds, others 5 seconds, others 6 seconds, etc. How can drivers make the stop/go decision with confidence when there is such a large disparity in yellow light duration?
Even if they don't shorten yellow lights below the minimum, drivers are unlikely to know until after they've been caught just how long a yellow light might be. That also seems problematic from a legal and ethical standpoint. Imagine a law against loitering under which you could be charged (without prior warning) for remaining in one place for too long...but the duration was not posted and you were not informed until after you had been ticketed/arrested. That would be clearly problematic, but how is it very different from the yellow light disparity?
The reason for disparities in yellow light times is obvious (speed, intersection size, etc), but the result is a law about which drivers are forced to make split-second guesses. And cities have an incentive to stack the deck against them.
"In one case, the local government was forced to issue refunds by more than $1 million to motorists"
That's great and all, but in each case there is a city official responsible for the operation of traffic signals, and those individuals need to be prosecuted for extortion.
I could actually come to an accomodation with red-light cams if, in addition to strict legal specs for yellow light duration and such, they could also be programmed to issue tickets for obstructing traffic to vehicles that fail to move through the intersection in an expeditious manner when the light turns green.
"...allowed by law." Who decided that law? Does the DOT determine how long yellow lights can be? (I'm not actually criticizing it, I'm just curious. It's not something I would have expected, but things like speed traps designed to catch outsiders seem to be something that should be dealt with at a high level of government.)
Also, I would think that yellow light duration should be a function of the speed limit of the road.
One can be sure that these shenanigans have caused accidents and probably deaths. Prosecuting a few for homicide, or bankrupting them with civil suits will put a stop to this.
In the meantime, I am an advocate for shooting the cameras with pellet guns and paint guns, and spray painting the lenses for those at ground level. These cameras are an actual hazard as I have seen people skid to a stop when the yellow light changes on them just as they reach the intersection.
Is there no limit to the narrowness of Libertarian tunnel vision? Meanwhile, in other news, Wall Street is tottering on the edge of total collapse caused by unchecked private-sector greed.
Now, you see, if we could get government out of meddling with the traffic lights, I could get you a no-money down mortgage with no documentation and no payments for two years. That would be worth running a red light!
Some yellow lights last 4 seconds, others 5 seconds, others 6 seconds, etc. How can drivers make the stop/go decision with confidence when there is such a large disparity in yellow light duration?
By treating the yellow light as a red light unless it's actually going to endanger you or somebody else, maybe? Seems like an easy heuristic, and if you get prosecuted for it, at least you did the right thing with regard to safety.
It seems to me that what you're saying is, "Those bastards are preventing me from exploiting the system to the maximum extent possible!" An alternative to agitating for tighter limits might be to stop trying to extract so much from the system.
"The reason for disparities in yellow light times is obvious (speed, intersection size, etc), but the result is a law about which drivers are forced to make split-second guesses."
The rule for yellow lights is if you can safely stop when you see the yellow, then you should be stopping. The durations are meant to reflect that at different speeds it takes a different amount of time to stop. I have heard of people being pulled over for speeding up to make a yellow light.
"Who decided that law? Does the DOT determine how long yellow lights can be?"
It's decided by safety, as in the amount of time it takes somebody to stop + reactions (see above). If that time is too short then drivers either have to come to a skidding halt or they run the red light. Either way it's a dangerous situation caused by making the yellow light too short.
"Does the DOT determine how long yellow lights can be?"
At least in some cases, yes. In California, for example, link one below shows the "suggested minimum yellow interval timing" (it's on page 27).
Link two shows the California law that makes that "suggestion" a legal requirement where red-light cams are in use.
I'm pretty sure Texas has a similar law. Which is to say, this wasn't just bureaucrats being greedy jerks. This is (in some, maybe most places) an explicit, intentional, premeditated violation of the law. That's why I think the officials responsible should be criminally prosecuted.
1. http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/traffops/signtech/mutcdsupp/pdf/CA-Chap4D.pdf
2. http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21455_7.htm
Why don't traffic lights have a timer display next to the light showing how much time remains until the light changes. If I am approaching a green light from some distance and see that there are 3 seconds until it turns yellow, I know I'm not going to make the light and adjust my speed accordingly. Also, it would allow people stopped at a red light to see how much longer they had to wait unitl it turned green. Lots of crosswalks have a countdown of how many seconds the walk signal will be illuminated, and it's helpful to glance over and see whether I will be able to make the intersection.
How can drivers make the stop/go decision with confidence when there is such a large disparity in yellow light duration?
Because the yellow light means "stop unless it would be unsafe to do so", not "go on, you can sneak through before the red one comes on".
Whether it is safe to stop before the junction is not affected by the duration of the yellow light. The decision to be made is whether the vehicle can be brought to a halt in advance of the line without having to brake so harshly that you risk being rear-ended by the vehicle behind.
The length of the yellow light should be driven by asking at what point in advance of the line a normal driver travelling in traffic at the speed limit in wet weather would consider it safe to come to a halt, the adding on a small margin.
Shortening the yellow duration so that drivers did have to slam the brakes on in an unsafe manner to avoid the red would indeed be a bad thing. Shortening the yellow so that drivers who think "well, it's only been yellow a couple of seconds - I'll just speed up and nip through the junction because I'm in a hurry" get caught is not a bad thing.
The point of traffic lights at junctions is to improve the safe and efficient flow of traffic. Overly long yellow light times impede the efficiency of the traffic flow.
My wife is a highway saftey engineer and was one of the coauthors on a major study on red light cameras.
First there are standards for yellow interval timing and as others have mentioned it depend on road speed and intersection design.
If local traffic engineers are deviating from these standard to raise revenues from traffic signals they should loose their license or perhaps be prosectued. They are endangering peoples lives.
Second, red light cameras do improve saftey at intersections. The study my wife did found that the overal number of crashes did not change but the type of crashes did. Before red light cameras there were more T-Bone crashes after there were more rear end crashes as people slammed on the breaks to avoid a ticket. As you can probably imagine a rear end crash is much less deadly than being T-boned by a red light runner or a drag racer quick out of the gate.
I don't get the basic complaint--you don't get the ticket for entering the intersection when the light is yellow, nor for being in the intersection when the light turns red--you get it for entering the intersection when the light is already red.
So it doesn't matter how long the yellow is, if you obey the law, you don't get ticketed.
Now, I do understand the indignation for the folk would rather play the game of "speed up if you see yellow"--them intersections with shorter yellow "tricks" you into running the red light as it turns red before it should! How dare it!
My wife is a highway saftey engineer and was one of the coauthors on a major study on red light cameras.
First there are standards for yellow interval timing and as others have mentioned it depend on road speed and intersection design.
If local traffic engineers are deviating from these standard to raise revenues from traffic signals they should loose their license or perhaps be prosectued. They are endangering peoples lives.
Second, red light cameras do improve saftey at intersections. The study my wife did found that the overal number of crashes did not change but the type of crashes did. Before red light cameras there were more T-Bone crashes after there were more rear end crashes as people slammed on the breaks to avoid a ticket. As you can probably imagine a rear end crash is much less deadly than being T-boned by a red light runner or a drag racer quick out of the gate.
"So it doesn't matter how long the yellow is, if you obey the law, you don't get ticketed."
The laws of physics are not subject to the laws of man.
I don't get the basic complaint--you don't get the ticket for entering the intersection when the light is yellow, nor for being in the intersection when the light turns red--you get it for entering the intersection when the light is already red.
This may or may not be the case with cameras, I don't know how they work, but when it comes to the laws as stated in the states that I have lived you are supposed to have cleared the intersection before the light turns red. A cop can ticket you for driving through a yellow that turns red.
I'm not against red light cameras in theory, though I don't have a whole lot of faith in cities' abilities to carry it out. If regulations were in place to prevent abuse, such as yellow light length requirements or a timer so that a driver knows whether he needs to attempt a full stop, then I'm on board.
I'm generally pretty conservative at yellow lights, so I don't have much to fear from the cameras, but I don't want them jacking with the length of the yellow light so that they can get some other guy. You don't have to be reckless to be discomforted by things like this any more than to be irritated by speed traps that have more to do with revenue generation than public safety.
Houston has always had short yellow lights. After driving here for a while I've become trained to stop on yellow. You can't beat a yellow light under any circumstances. If you even think you can beat a yellow light, it's already turned red. This has no correlation to red-light cameras or police operations. The entire metro area has always had quick yellow lights for as long as I've been here (almost ten years).
An acquaintance of mine believes that they compensate for fast yellow lights with slow green lights. According to them, there is a brief moment when the lights on all four sides are red. I haven't taken any time to try observing this for myself. If this is true then it seems like this is the better strategy than simply shortening the yellow cycle.
I'll sing "Amen" to just about any criticism of speed cameras, but the red-light cameras are great. The "norm" for red-light runners had been constantly increasing around DC. During rush, it was normal for about 5 cars per lane to run each red. Cameras at just a few intersections seemed to put an end to it.
Messing around with the yellow durations should be a crime, and should be punished, but this is no different than cops shaking down hookers or dealers. Abuse of authority does not mean the authority should be eliminated. It means the abuser should be removed and the authority more effectively monitored.
What ever happened to the old fashioned way of dealing with this problem?
Identify the traffic engineers and their bosses responsible for the shortening below legal limits, then have them tarred and feathered.
If these traffic cameras are a way for generating revenue its probably because cities are trying to find a way for suburbanites, who use city services during the day but pay no taxes, to pay their fair share. More cameras I say! Onward with congestion pricing!
What is the effect of all this on the capacity of an intersection?
Do we get more congestion than we otherwise would?
I know Dallas had previously copped to shutting off their red light cameras because they worked so well in reducing violations that they resulted in reduced ticket revenue. But this is just despicable. It's one thing to remove an extra incentive to stop at a red light. It's quite another to purposely endanger people for some extra cash to line their coffers.
What's next? Why not just get rid of the yellow light altogether? It'll be like a really dangerous game of hot potato or musical chairs.
It occurs to me that there might be an innocent explanation for this.
Before the cameras, more people were willing to risk running the red. The longer yellow dissuaded some of them. Seeing the yellow from 200 yards away, they decided to stop.
After the camera was installed, this was no longer necessary. People were stopping if they could safely do so. Then the light stayed yellow as they sat there. So, the yellow was shortened.
It's possible, even believable - just not as believable as money-grubbing.
What about a car in a left turn lane that is already in the intersection before the light turns yellow? How do these cameras treats those cases? There are some intersections, lacking left turn lights, where the only way to make a left turn during peak traffic times is to wait until the light turns all the way to red. Traditionally this was always allowed, but are these people being ticketed now?
As pointed out above, California has standards for minimum times for yellow lights, and those standards have the force of law for red-light cameras.
However.
The standards state that the traffic speed is presumed to be the posted speed limit, which is often significantly below what an honest traffic-engineering study would determine is the safe speed, and slower than the speed of actual traffic. In those cases, shortening the yellow to the legal minimum does endanger safety merely for the purpose of raising revenue.
JonF - in the case described, you should not get a ticket, provided you entered the intersection *before* the red light started. The cameras are supposed to be triggered by cars entering during the red light. If someone follows you through, and triggers the camera, it's possible you'd get a ticket, but you shouldn't, and you should succeed in fighting it.
The solution, from a safety point of view, is when the light turns RED, the GREEN light for the side traffic to go is DELAYED for 2 or 3 seconds. In that way, anyone "running" the yellow/red is out of the way before the other light turns green.
As someone who lives in a northern suburb of Dallas I can tell you that those cameras (or at least their flashes) are triggered at weirdest times... no rhyme or reason. I have no idea if people get tickets in such cases or there's some mechanism (like including "phase" of the traffic light with the picture) that lets the operator filter those away. But the overall experience with these things is far from confidence-inspiring.
This is analagous to speed limits.
I grew up in Chicago, where EVERYONE goes 10 to 15 over the speed limit on the highways.
So imagine my shock when, upon driving in Michigan's Upper Peninsula, I got ticketed for going about 15 over.
The problem is uneven enforcement. Everyone always speeds, even by about 5 mph. To NOT go at the speed of traffic is dangerous. There ought to be uniform enforcement of speed limits.
Going over 5 mph over the speed limit anywhere WILL result in a ticket. Then adjust speed limits to make that standard reasonable.
It's a poor law when everyone breaks it.
"Is there no limit to the narrowness of Libertarian tunnel vision? "
Sure, as soon as there is a limit to state-sponsered stupidity and tax-sucking black-hole revenue gathering. This is the mirror-image of the crime of tax-evasion.
As for ...
"I don't get the basic complaint--you don't get the ticket for entering the intersection when the light is yellow, nor for being in the intersection when the light turns red--you get it for entering the intersection when the light is already red."
Who's to say that the camara/light sync timing is set properly as well? Obviously we can't trust the city to properly and fairly set the system.
I figure yellow is the new red. I liked having that extra time to make a decision about my speed, proximity to the intersection, driving conditions, etc. Now I'll just be hitting the brakes and hoping for the best!
It isn't always safe to stop on yellow, especially when you are driving an unfamiliar vehicle. The first time I ever pulled a full trailer, I came upon a yellow light while driving at, or slightly below, speed limit. I thought I could stop, but instead I went skidding into the intersection, before deciding it was safer to just continue through on the red light.
Since the DMV says it takes one car length to stop for every 10 miles per hour, it would seem that this should set the basis for when you should stop or be required to go through the light. For example, if you are going 30 miles per hours, you require 30 feet to stop. Consequently, if the light turns yellow while you are within 30 feet of the cross walk, you should be required to go through the light.
Since the DMV says it takes one car length to stop for every 10 miles per hour, it would seem that this should set the basis for when you should stop or be required to go through the light. For example, if you are going 30 miles per hours, you require 30 feet to stop. Consequently, if the light turns yellow while you are within 30 feet of the cross walk, you should be required to go through the light.