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Symbolic vs. functional

01 Apr 2008 09:50 am

[Peter Suderman]

Atrios wonders whether a presidential victory by Obama, as an African-American, or Hillary Clinton, as a woman, would represent the more significant historical event.

One cannot deny that having a woman become president would be a tremendous advance for feminism, and perhaps more than an African-American president would represent an advance for the cause of racial justice

And in a follow-up post:

An Obama victory would signal that we've gone another step towards the future race blind utopia, and it would be a tremendous thing for this country, but having a woman as president of the United States wouldn't simply signal an advancement in attitudes, but would actual be more of an advance in and of itself.

Ezra Klein agrees, and I probably do as well, though I think there's plenty of room for disagreement here (quite a few of Atrios' commenters seem to as well). But I wonder: How much does, or should, this matter? Should historical precedent really play a part in a person's decision to vote for a particular candidate? My sense is that it depends on the way one looks at the office.

On one hand, if the president is merely someone who is elected to perform a set of duties—if you view the office primarily in a functional sense—then these sorts of precedents probably don't matter. Performing the specific duties of the office as well as possible is the only thing that matters, so any characteristic of the candidate that doesn't explicitly add to his or her capability in that respect is unimportant.

On the other hand, if you view the office in a more symbolic sense—as someone whose identity and character, apart from their specific management and decision-making duties, is crucial in setting a tone for the nation and in setting an example for the country's residents—then race and gender precedents are extremely important.

I lean toward the former, but I think both views are reasonable, and I doubt most people hew entirely to one view or the other. But whichever one they prefer probably says a lot about how much weight, if any, they place on identity-oriented precedents.

Comments (16)

I would rather have a competent President than one chosen for some kind of identity-politics precedent.

I'm also not convinced that electing an incompetent Black of Woman President would be a good thing... we don't really want people saying, "Gee, we did elect a Black President, but he was awful... never again."

That's the danger of playing identity politics with something like this. Better to focus on issues and ability.

Agreed and what’s so sad about the two contenders for the Democratic nomination is the only reason that either of them are potential nominees is because of their symbolic value to the identify politicos. If it was so vital to have a “historic first,” it’s a pity that they didn’t opt for the first Hispanic nominee in the form of Richardson who would have least brought experience and competence as a candidate. Clinton and Obama, not so much.

The president is the head of state, the symbol of the continuity of the union, of course it is important who he or she is. My question though, is: Exactly how would a female president be more of a step forward? It is true, women were once considered like children, wards of their parents or husbands. But American blacks were lower than that, they were property, livestock. I'm not saying that these evaluations of these groups were accurate, but what would be more momentous, if a 14 year old took office, or a plow horse? Additionally, this would be the first time a non-subjugated minority would lead the executive in any country in the world.

we don't really want people saying, "Gee, we did elect a Black President, but he was awful... never again."

Something like this? Do We Really Want Another Black President After The Events Of Deep Impact?

Thatcher, Merkel??? Just because its a first for the US, doesn't mean its really that new.

I think if we were choosing a British like King and leaving the rest of the government alone, BHO would be a desirable choice.

Thatcher, Merkel??? Just because its a first for the US, doesn't mean its really that new.

True however both Margaret Thatcher and Angela Merkel were both well-qualified to be the leaders of their respective nations because each is an accomplished woman in her own right.

No one can seriously say the same thing about Hillary Clinton.

And that’s even more true for Barack Obama.

Well, yeah: If the candidate's not strong enough to vote for regardless of the identity-precendent thing, you sure don't want that candidate being the First Whatever President.

Obama would still be odds-on to win if he were a white guy. People just like him, the man. Even among people who do care about the identity nonsense, Obama's skin doesn't even begin to account for the degree of enthusiasm. Did they feel even remotely like this about Hilary before Obama got their attention? Nope. They supported her, but they never swooned.

I think he may well be a lousy president, and if so it'll be a damn shame if the first non-white-guy president is a dud (who wants to spend the next four years dutifully reminding people that virtually all of the white guys we've elected were losers too?), but it won't be his complexion that gets him elected.

I can only laugh at the gibberish about whether a black man or a white woman would be a greater step forward; it's Atrios at his abysmal best. Either one would be a "nice to have", provided we get the least incompetent president we can. Beyond that, you're just yapping to hear your voice.

Thatcher was far more significant historically - a well qualified woman who rose to power on her own (not as somebody's wife or widow or daughter) and who then made a strong impact on the world as a powerful leader of a major country. I don't know as much about Merkel, but coming after both, an inexperienced wife of a former president just isn't that big an event.

The relevant precedents for Hillary aren't so much Thatcher and Merkel, or other women presidents and prime ministers who succeeded on their own, such as Vigdís Finnbogadóttir, Mary Robinson, Mary McAleese, Agatha Barbara, Ruth Dreifuss, Tarja Kaarina Halonen, Ellen Johnson-Sirleaf, Michelle Bachelet Jeria, Pratibha Patil or even Gloria Macapagal Arroyo (who became president when Estrada was forced out) or Aung San Suu Kyi (who was only 2 years old when her father was assasinated and who has been a powerful and independent advocate for change, even through all these years of house arrest).

The relevant precedents are the many women who got the top job through family connections: Benazir Bhutto, Maria Peron, Indira Gandhi, Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, Sonia Gandhi, Megawati Sukarnoputri, Cory Aquino, Violeta Chamorro, Hasina Rahman, Sirimavo Bandaranaike, Chandrika Kumaratunga, Khalida Zia and Hasina Wajed.

Yes, I know that the US is the leader of the free world and all, so nothing has really happened until it has happened to us (perhaps we should adopt China's self-assigned title as the 'middle kingdom', a.k.a. 'center of the universe'). But the story of a woman getting a country's top job, much less getting it through family connections, has played out so many times in the last half-century that one more replay just doesn't compare to a story like Thatcher's.

I think the Presidency has both symbolic and functional roles, and feel that for the Presidency functional has to take priority, but symbolic matters. It is interesting, however, to see the reversal of emphasis between the parties. Today, with the "symbology" favoring Clinton or Obama there are lots of Democrats very happy to vote, and urge voting, largely on symbology, with Republicans saying "No, the Presidency is just a job, and we need the best person for that job." When it was Bill Clinton's activities with Monica, a lot of Republican's sincerly felt the symbology that "The President is a symbol of our country, and I don't want *this* to be part of that symbol," while the Democrats were the ones saying Bill Clinton is doing well in his day job, so any mere apperance from his outside activities shouldn't really matter.

(There was the added factor that many citizens who already opposed Clinton sincerely felt that adultery, per se, is a bad image, and many citizens who already supported Clinton sincerly felt that sex between consenting adults is not something for people outside to worry about. Thus, in addition to the disagreement about symbology versus function, there was a disagreement about what the symbology itself actually meant.)

If we want a first on the world stage, I'm pretty sure we'd be the first major nation to elect a black, or visibly "dark-raced*," president or prime-minister. Whereas we were beaten to female chief executive years ago, and this one isn't even winning without a powerful husband or father to run on. Peron, not Merkel.

That said, I think the identity politics arguments suck and will vote for someone who will do a good job: no more torture in my name, new direction for foreign policy. If that candidate was going to be Biden, his identity wouldn't phase me.

*I know one of the 19th century British PMs was 1/4 Indian; I'm using the "by their face" standard.

"*I know one of the 19th century British PMs was 1/4 Indian; I'm using the "by their face" standard." That would be Lord Liverpool. The Pitts were also part-Indian. Whether any of those three looked as exotic as Disraeli I don't know.

Benazir Bhutto, Maria Peron, Indira Gandhi, Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, Sonia Gandhi, Megawati Sukarnoputri, Cory Aquino, Violeta Chamorro, Hasina Rahman, Sirimavo Bandaranaike, Chandrika Kumaratunga, Khalida Zia and Hasina Wajed.

Ann, you didn't just rattle off all those names spelled correctly off the top of your head did you?

I'm very impressed.

jmo -

I wish! No, I knew a few (Bhutto, Peron, Aquino, Gandhi) but looked up most and cut and pasted to get the names right. It turned into a bigger job than I expected, and the list doesn't even cover them all - I was surprised at how many there were!

Noone sees the sucker punch coming. The Democrat's brokered convention will result in them nominating Donna Brazile, thus setting them up to take care of both "firsts" in one go.

Both Clinton and Obama would get an asterisk next to their "first" designation. Clinton because she's a former first lady, and Obama because he's half white and half African.

The appeal of Obama for this discussion is that he isn't (or at least wasn't) running on his identity, although Ferraro was right that no white Senator with his pitiful experience would have gotten this far so early in his career. If he had a successful term or two as Illinois governor on his resume, he'd be a lock to win...


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