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The Confederate Problem

04 Apr 2008 11:11 pm

[Jon Henke]

Before I step away from this blog to make way for Megan's return (tanned, rested and ready!), I want to make one more point about race. Matt Yglesias is exactly right here...

It seems that April is Confederate Heritage month. Why one would want to celebrate a heritage of violent rebellion against a democratically elected government in order to perpetuate a system of chattel slavery is a bit hard for me to say. [...] Even odder, as best I can tell these days (it was different in the past) most of the folks who like to wave the Confederate flag are perfectly genuine when they get offended that others see them as waving a banner of violent white supremacist ideology. But if that's not the ideology you mean to associate with, then why not drop the flag and adopt some less provocative emblem of Southern folkways?

This is a very complicated subject, particularly as it applies to the Confederate flag (let's not get into the tedious discussion over whether it was really the Confederate flag or simple a "battle flag"; it's irrelevant). Most Southerners have a relationship with the Confederate flag that has nothing whatsoever to do with slavery. Over many years, it gradually became a symbol of regional identification, pride and, yes, rebellion. But rebellion in the sense of "James Dean" rather than "secession". This is exacerbated by the condescending, antagonizing way in which southerners are treated by outsiders, including the media and politicians.

In the South, the Confederate flag symbol is somewhat akin to the Washington Redskins name and logo, which also has offensive racial connotations. Owning/supporting a Confederate flag is generally understood to be no more intrinsically racist than, e.g., supporting, or owning the logo of, the Washington Redskins. The understood symbolism simply isn't racial.

On the other hand, there is no getting around the history of the Confederate flag, and no excuse for that history. Whatever people may intend by it now, it was, as Matt Yglesias writes, "a banner of violent white supremacist ideology." Many people, correctly, are deeply disturbed by the thing; they have no obligation to pretend it is anything but a banner of the ugliest, most inexcusable policy in American history.

So, we have one group of people who intend no offense, and another group who perceive great offense. Where do we go from there?

For starters, I'm reminded of a lesson I learned as a child: don't take offense where none is intended. It would be helpful if we stopped assuming that racism is at the root of every disagreement and misunderstanding. For instance, it's probably not helpful to reflexively assume that because somebody voted against a federal holiday for Martin Luther King, Jr, the motivation must have been racist. There are many great Americans without federal holidays, and - while racism was undoubtedly the case for some - one need not be bigoted against their ethnicity or race to disagree with creating a federal holiday in their honor. In Martin Luther King, Jr's case, however, they were wrong. Martin Luther King, Jr. ought to be considered the Last Founding Father for the work he did to finally hold those truths to be self-evident.

But the reflexive assumption of racism on the part of early opponents is counterproductive and unnecessary. When offense is not intended, it should not be taken...or assumed. Opponents of the Confederate flag and Confederate History Month ought not reflexively cry "racism" and demand penance.

But I'm also reminded of another lesson I learned in childhood: don't do things you know will offend others. Even if you mean no offense, courtesy and a decent respect for your fellow man demands you take their opinions and perceptions into account. Confederate History Month should be ended, and the Confederate flag should be discarded, replaced, as Yglesias suggests, with "some less provocative emblem of Southern folkways". The Confederacy and the Confederate flag are not worth celebrating. Their revolting history is too inescapable.

I don't suppose such a change of course would be easy for either side of this cultural misapprehension, but it would be best, in the end, for all of us. So long as each side chooses to be antagonistic, however, they will get the fight they expect.

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Comments (151)

The only Federal holiday for any other individual American is Washington's Birthday.

No other American — not Jefferson, not Franklin, not Madison, not Lincoln, not FDR, not any of them — has a Federal holiday. It is not that merely that "[t]here many great Americans without federal holidays" — no "great American" had a Federal holiday other than the Father of his Country. Being a "great American" was not a qualification for a Federal holiday; it was a literally singular honor.

So, the implication of the Federal holiday "Birthday of Martin Luther King, Jr." is that the Reverend King is clearly superior in importance and honor to every other American in history, with the sole exception of George Washington.

That, I think, cannot be fairly said to be anything but ridiculous. If Lincoln, who lead the country through a crisis that threatened its very existence, doesn't make the cut for a Federal holiday, then Reverend King clearly does not make the cut, either, "Last Founding Father" or not.

Well man theres only so many days you can shut down the government and banks. If we gave a day to everyone who deserved it we'd have to make it about as meaningful as all those Official ______ Weeks that no one gives a damn about.

Lunatic, you've got a little Columbus Day problem there. No, he wasn't American; does that imply that he is the greatest non-American human being who ever lived? Since he's the only non-American whose birthday is a Federal holiday?

Besides Jesus Christ, that is.

Obviously, what Columbus Day celebrates isn't that one Italian dude; it's the "discovery" of the American continent and the beginning of the American immigrant narrative, which is part of the groundwork of this nation's social contract and identity. And what MLK's birthday honors isn't that one black guy; it's the Civil Rights movement, which is the groundwork on which the US's contemporary social contract regarding racial identity is based. Essentially, Columbus Day, both in its iconography and the history of the holiday, solidifies the extension of the American social contract to ethnic immigrants. And MLK day, both in its iconography and the history of the holiday, solidifies the extension of that guarantee to include people of different racial groups, whom the America of the 1950s still excluded.

I disagree with this post, or at least some readings of it. The flag does not just mean rebellion for the James Dean hell of it - there is something southern about it, about being proud of being a southerner, different from the rest of the country, and yes, as you said, looked down upon for faults both past and present. I think that the main thrust of the post is correct, but this is an important point that we should not elide over too quickly.

With that in mind, my history teacher in high school always said that we should furl up the flags for 100 years, so that we could unfurl them again in 100 more years with pride. I don't know if that's right or not, but I know it does not make sense if there's nothing distinctly southern about it.

In all of this, it's always the vanquished who remember the wars. Leftists like Mr. Yglesias are quick to point out the psychological effects of a crushing defeat and humiliating occupation when it suits their other political objectives - I don't think it is too much to ask a bit of understanding from him for his fellow countrymen.

"So, we have one group of people who intend no offense...."

Really? You think I just fell off a turnip truck? "intend no offense..." Really? You got a bridge in Brooklyn you're trying to sell? It's pretty hard to fail to intend offense by an act whose history is well known and to which objections are regularly made. Your assertion that one group intends no offense is self-serving and disingenous.

"The understood symbolism simply isn't racial." Really? Really? Understood by whom? You ever get a contrary opinion from folks who may not be southern white or may have had family who suffered under or fought against the flag? Isn't your argument, "none of my friends think the way you describe when we waive our Confederate flag - so back off." Invoking the solipcism of the sons of Johnny Reb here?

You want to be a propagandist for a racist ideology, it's you're business. But the better class of propagandists tend to eschew arguments that insult the intelligence of their target audience.

But of course, I intend no offense.


The only problem is McCained comes from a state that have a rather interesting reputation.

See:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-arizimmig5apr05,1,6970275,full.story


No, voting against MLK Day is not automatically racially motivated.

In fact, it can be argued that those who are not black voting for MLK Day / Street / or Whatever are the true racists because to them, that first act will also be the absolute last act they will ever consent to for recognizing a distinguished American who happens to be black. You will never get a Colin Powell Road out of them.

Henke writes:

"Most Southerners have a relationship with the Confederate flag that has nothing whatsoever to do with slavery."

I'm a white southerner myself, and I can see where Henke is coming from here, but this is not exactly right. Most many White Southerners think this way, sure. But Black Southerners absolutely do not, and Southern Liberals don't either. Furthermore, people that fly the flag without racist intent are still demonstrating a serious lack of empathy and awareness, in that they should be aware that lots of people do see the flag as a symbol of treason in the defence of slavery.

This means that flying the flag, while not necessarily a sign of racism, isn't something that considerate people ought to do, and it certainly isn't something that state governments ought to do.

It is probably not a good idea to ignore history during Confederate Heritage or any other month.

The flag in question -- a bright red, rectangular version of the "battle ensign of the Army of Northern Virginia" -- was never the national flag of the CSA nor an actual battle ensign of or in the CSA. It was an entirely hypothetical naval ensign and the proposed personal standard of Gen. Joe Johnston, for a few weeks prior to this death. No flag of that design was probably ever flown in or by the CSA.

The flag in question was popularized across the South after the war -- in my family it is still just "the war" -- primarily by the KKK and the Sigma Chi fraternity, neither of which we had or have much use for being of rather more authentic Confederate heritage, for instance, land-rich, cash-poor, and racially integrated, indeed, intimate.

Interestingly, bright red (analine) dyes for cotton or, for that matter, bright red ink for lithography was not available in the CSA but only to later "media". So, nominally red square cantons on some CSA flags and red square battle ensign, that did exist, were almost always pink after one rain.

The preferred and practical color for both CSA and USA battle flags was actually blue inasmuch as a color-fast vegetable dye in dark blue for cotton was available.

The point here is that the flag in question was invented and has been used post-war and today for various reasons by people who neither know nor care much for actual Southern military heritage.

It gets worse:

The US military is somewhat goofy about this.

Inasmuch as the CSA national, state, and battle flags were instruments of armed rebellion -- "signals" in the strict military sense of the word -- regulations governing recognition and responses to display of these should come from the DoD or, to the extent the Klan, say, may still be a "terrorist organization", DoJ/DHS.

They should specify circumstances for, say, naval bombardment of a civil or military installation, certainly including the capitol building in Charleston, SC. And, of course, the regulations should provide various exemptions and waivers:

The USA should allow memorial displays in, say, Southern cemetaries, trophies in US Army and Navy dining facilities, and, of course, peaceful assemblies such as parades -- even KKK rallies conducted under police supervision (presumably not police sponsorship), ACLU court orders, and, of course, some political rallies and campaigns, and so on. After all, ex-Confederate states were re-admitted to the Union on condition of submitting to federal military authority but with all the privileges afforded uniformly to all people and states by the US constitution originally or, as we say today, residually.

Historical recreations and re-enanctments should require the same sort of licensing involved in war movies that utilize government ordnance, military facilities, or personnel.

In any case, the implicit threat to public order in public display of real or imagined artifacts of the CSA/ANV would be greatly diminished if there were more actual balance in (a) federal-state relations and (b) between various branches of government at all levels, as well well as (c) robust civic institutions with more patriotic potential than multi-national corporations and financial institutions, monopoly concessions, and criminal schemes promoted or protected by the US government.

These are peculiarly "Southern" grievances that give rise to "rebel" forms of artistic and even peaceful political expression that should and, sometimes do, pervade the entire Union. Those could, constructively, take the place of various cultures of racial grievance -- white, black, or, today, "whatever ..." that usually mask Whig-type economic and class discrimination.


Oildrilling Lunatic: Get over yourself. Why aren't you complaining about Columbus Day then? Huh? In any case Martin Luther King day celebrates more than the man, it is also about the fight for civil rights and that struggle is indeed worthy of a day.

The thesis hinges around an assertion - that the Confederate flag has no racial implications to its supporters. I doubt this. Racism is still alive and well in the US, even thought we are making progress. My guess is that Confederate flag proponents would be more likely to hold racist attitudes - but I'd be happy to be disproven. I could not (quickly) find any research on the subject.

My second objection is that is important to get history right. (Anecdote alert) Several times when I have spoken with non-African American Southeners, I have heard that they did not think the civil war was about slavery (even that they were taught this in schools). This kind of historical blindness is a roadblock to racial reconciliation today.

It is not just opponents who "have no obligation to pretend [the flag] is anything but a banner of the ugliest, most inexcusable policy in American history." It is everyone who should understand that. The Confederate flag should be understood for what it was, not made into some empty vessel of "rebellion."

Tom

This is a sample of one item, but it was instructive to me. There was a neighbor on our street who had a "Heritage Not Hate" bumper sticker on his car, and who flew a Confederate flag in front of his house every day. He took the flag down after the mixed-race family down the street moved out.

"On the other hand, there is no getting around the history of the Confederate flag, and no excuse for that history. Whatever people may intend by it now, it was, as Matt Yglesias writes, "a banner of violent white supremacist ideology." Many people, correctly, are deeply disturbed by the thing; they have no obligation to pretend it is anything but a banner of the ugliest, most inexcusable policy in American history."

Ironic, then, that the stars and stripes are viewed with such reverence despite the violent supremacy the US has carried out against not just white people, but Native Americans, Africans, Asians, and now Arabs.

What excuse is offered for the history of the horrendous and violent acts carried out under the current US flag?

Mith,

The United States has done good and bad things. We can argue about their relative weight, but I don't see how anyone can argue that the Confederacy was a good thing. It was conceived to defend slavery and led to enormous loss of life. The closest analogy to me, recognizing my violation of Goodwin's law, is Nazi Germany and the swastika

Tom

Y'all

The problem I see here with some of the more 'stuffed-shirt' types is that nobody ASKED the opinions or beliefs of those who actually fly Confederate flags or deal with Confederate Heritage.

It is Confederate Heritage and History month where I live, so proclaimed by our State Gov, my county commission, and my town's city council. The latter 2 were at my request, as I have sought out and received 21 CH&HM Proclamations from 21 area governmental jurisdictions.

I have 3 flag poles in my front yard, and during this month I fly (at different times) a total of 27 different Southern/Confederate flags. That would include 13 southern state flags as well as 14 different versions of Confederate flags (3 CS National flags, 11 different Battle flags [Polk, Hardee, Forrest, Price, Ky Orphan, Trans Miss, Citadel, etc...])

Do people get 'offended' ? Don't know and don't really care. Neighbors seem appreciative, as they like to get flags from me. I have been put on this earth for a short unknown amount of time, and I'll be darned if I am gonna tailor my life so that joe blow across town or next door can live his precious life 'un-offended'

Tons of stuff 'offend' me. I shake my head and go on. Life is hard, stupidity is easy.

Why do I honor my ancestors from the 1860s? Partly cause we are to honor our mothers and fathers, partly cause they are always unfairly attacked as Nazis and traitors and need defending, and partly cause I agree with some of the 'giving all for your beliefs' mantra.

Was there bad things behind the Confederate flag (by which is assumed every one means the 3x5 version Army of Tennessee standard) yes - mainly long after the war. I choose to focus on the positives.

Was there bad things behind the United States Flag? Slavery, Genocide of Indians, Jim Crow, Internment Camps, among others, but we as a nation focus on the positives. I don't recognize al sharpton, dick gephardt, pudentilla, mitt romney, or julian bond's qualifications to define the Confederate flag or my heritage.

As with any proclamation, it carries no force of law, and the individual citizen can become involved or ignore it. I am involved and enjoy participation. Come May, I furl my collection of flags and store my copies of the CH&HM proclamations and get ready for Cinco de Mayo.

I stand by to answer serious queries and to rebut idiotic statements.

God Bless

Good Americans fly a flag representing a rebellious nation every day. That nation is the United States of America. Are you saying we should all fly the Union Jack instead?

We have freedom of expression in this nation. Let people fly the Confederate flag if they want to. Hell, I've seen black people sporting that flag so it can't only be about slavery.

The Civil War claimed more American lives than any other war in our history. The real tragedy is we didn't or couldn't stop slavery at the inception of this nation, or at the very least, find some way to end it without all the death. I'm always amazed that people rate Lincoln so highly. If he were truly great he'd have figured out a less bloody solution.

Another viewpoint:

http://www.lizmichael.com/blkconfd.htm

OK Billy I'll ask your opinion. What about the Confederacy do you venerate?

Other than your ancestors' participation and giving it there all. After all our ancestors participated in a lot of stuff and presumably frequently gave it their all.

Tom

Nelson,

Are all rebellions equal? Isn't the motivation of the rebellion important?

Tom

The irony--at least here in the North is that the people who wave the Confederate Flag in the back of their pick-up truck are probably the same as the "God Bless America," Rah-Rah crowd. I'm not exactly sure whether they never learned that the Confederate Flag is the antithesis to the American flag, or whether they just want to look what is to them old-timie patriotic.

the Confederate flag should be discarded, replaced, as Yglesias suggests, with "some less provocative emblem of Southern folkways".

Such as? The South is associated with slavery and segregation, which means that anything used to symbolise it will also become associated with those things.

(Incidentally, I always thought that if the North really cared only about ending slavery in the South, it would have been a lot cheaper to simply buy the slaves. And a lot less bloody.)

I honor, of course, the bravery, fortitude, sacrifice, and daring in the face against all odds, the service and dedication of the dirt poor and ill equiped average citizen (which includes my kin)

I am distant cousins with Thomas J Stonewall Jackson.

From Ironclads in Hampton Roads to Cottonclads in Galveston, from the submarine Hunley to Forrest's 'First with the most' to Stonewall's Valley Campaigns - Confederates were ingenious, and still studied today.

Some of my ancestors (late 1700's early 1800's owned a few slaves, but not my Confederate ancestors. One uncle came back, became a reverend, and started a small church that still meets today. That reminds me that from him to most of the leaders back then were very religious (Lee Jackson Polk Davis etc...) and that is a good thing - even put God into the CS Constitution.

States Rights - and not some code word phrase, was then and still is very important. Gambling in New Jersey to prostitution in Nevada to gay marraige in Massachusetts to riding a motorcycle without a mandated helmet in Indiana to no mandatory seat belts in pick up trucks in Georgia, states rights are very important and what our Founding Fathers envisioned for us - not the dictatorial nanny state of Big Brother we have now.

Finally, regional pride. I am a southerner. Part of that is Confederate roots, and I ain't gonna throw GGGrandpa in the trash to make joe blow happy. Joe and I can be friends, Lord knows I have tried, but he keeps making assumptions and throwing rocks. I just shake my head and walk away.

So, I see.

All of you believe that there was one, and only one, cause to the Civil War.

On an economics and politics blog, no less.

If I have my history correct the Confederate States were formed about a month before he was sworn in, and a month after that they attacked Fort Sumter.

I'm not sure exactly what Lincoln was supposed to do to stop the Civil War since the decision to start it was in the hands of the confederates and appears to have been make before he was even in office.

A fruitless battle.

On to more important things:

Megan has a tan? I will believe that when I see it.

I'm not sure exactly what Lincoln was supposed to do to stop the Civil War

Recognised Confederate independence?

Whatever the other effects of this, it would have stopped the Civil War.

the Confederate flag should be discarded, replaced, as Yglesias suggests, with "some less provocative emblem of Southern folkways".

Such as? The South is associated with slavery and segregation, which means that anything used to symbolise it will also become associated with those things.

Key Lime Pie?

Fact is The Confederate States of America were formed leagly and Constitutionaly,The property of Ft.Sumter belonged to the people of the Confederate States of America,and was occupied by an insurgant army.No Nation has the right to attack another nation for any reason unless it is to prevent an attack upon it own soil.What the union army did was wrong in this regard.Secession in regards to preserving the institution of slavery became a civil matter to be worked out by those citizens of that nation and not by forced compliance by another nation.Slavery was Constitutionaly protected by the United States Constitution and was not fullyand properly amended untill the 1870's,so to say that the secession states did so in order to preserve slavery is a red herring issue,also the emansipation proclaimation did not stop slavery in thos estates that were not in as you state in rebelloin. The Confederate States of America were NOT in rebellion,they were their own Nation and should have been respected as such.

There was no constitutional method for withdrawal.

Point to the portion of constitution that allows for it please.

It was unconstitutional. As with all rebellions, they are only legal when the succeed.

Bill, you say that the Civil War was not about slavery but about states rights. And then you say:

"States Rights - and not some code word phrase, was then and still is very important. Gambling in New Jersey to prostitution in Nevada to gay marraige in Massachusetts to riding a motorcycle without a mandated helmet in Indiana to no mandatory seat belts in pick up trucks in Georgia, states rights are very important and what our Founding Fathers envisioned for us - not the dictatorial nanny state of Big Brother we have now."

Okay--but notice that all the examples you give are perfectly legal and accepted today, 140 years after the South LOST the Civil War. So obviously the "dictatorial nanny state" you despise actually hasn't eliminated states rights. The only right it eliminated that has anything to do with the Civil War is the right to hold other people as slaves.

So how can you say the South wasn't fighting to defend slavery? It sure wasn't fighting to protect the right of New Jersey to legalize gambling.

"It is Confederate Heritage and History month where I live, so proclaimed by our State Gov, my county commission, and my town's city council. The latter 2 were at my request, as I have sought out and received 21 CH&HM Proclamations from 21 area governmental jurisdictions."

In other words, institutionalized racism.

Toxic

The fact that is is not spicificly written in the Constutution is what makes if constitutional. Those laws not enumerated to the federal government are left to the states to deside.Now you show me where it states that secession is unconstitutional,you cannot, and if you can i will then show you a usurpitation of the constitution which is also unconstitutional.The presidence of secession is set by the second statement made in the "Declaration of Independence",which it the preamble to our Constitution sir.

Karl,

You said I stated the war wasn't fought over slavery. I couldn't find that quote above. Perhaps I missed the exact line?

OK lemme see here, let us pretend I did say that above, follow along and point out my errors....

Slavery was not limited to the south. EVER.

Slavery was protected by the United States Constitution.

Upon creation of said Confederacy, more Slave states (8) remained in the Union than joined (7) the CSA.

The War was due to Ft Sumter being fired on. It was fired on due to provocative acts of war by the Lincoln Adminstration with attempts to resupply it with troops and munitions instead of honoring an agreement to vacate the premises, all the while telling Confederate commissioners that nothing was being planned.
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/csa/m042961.htm

Southerners thought it best to allow territories to decide for themselves to enter the Union free or slave. Lincoln admin dictates all new states will be free (replace free and slave with any current states right issue - abortion, marriage, etc.. )

Lincoln promoted the Corwin Amendment openly

Even as late as 2 years into the war, Lincoln was still writing his penpals like Greeley that slavery was not an issue.

Finally, when the Emancipation Proclamation was issued, it only covered areas out of the US control. Slavery remained in West Va, Ky, Mo, Md, De, and Noo Joysey.

You must first know how our government was formed before you can know how and why States fekt they could withdraw the the compact.Many of the states the followed the secession movement left provision of secession in their agreement to join the union of states and by exceptance of those agreement by the federal government allowing their partisipation in the union of states also adds legality to their secession.

I understand why many blacks don't like the flag as it is a visual link to a painful past (and a past whose difficulties did not end with slavery and carried on until the 1960's or so).

Also, I understand the desire to have the flag and don't think it should "disappear" as a cultural artifact. I think given the problems in the black community, the last thing that is a valuable use of energy is to focus on who is flying what flag.

What I think is most intellectually dishonest however, is the desire to shift the meaning of the Civil War to an issue of state's rights. Because immediately after you say, "Well gee whiz, what rights were being suppressed?" the immediate and most important right relates to slavery.

It's like Michael Jackson getting on the high ground and arguing he is being oppressed and just wants to be free, and that the issue is liberty.

"Free to do what Michael?" Michael thinks for a moment.
"Free to have little kids eat jello and sleep in my racing car bed with me," he finally says.

Thus so often supporters of that flag want to add a type of "above the frey" intellectual gloss to their position, while ignoring both the truth and the feelings of others.

And you see that time again, that whole "Well I don't care what people say cause I am just doing my thing and if people want to toss rocks go ahead". Rebels without a decent cause.

It's interesting because you could sit and interview the parents or grandparents of many black people and likely will hear stories of how they were not permitted to live somewhere, did not have jobs open to them, had to attend segregated schools, could not get adequate insurance policies, etc.

You could do the same with many whites, and every parent or grandparent was a saint, and never did anything to anyone.

All those people from the videos showing blacks being hosed and screamed at, or kicked out of restaurants, or NOT in a host of jobs, but nobody remembers that.

Cognitive dissonance, intellectal and moral dishonesty.

There is a lot of denial and the issues at hand are not entirely historical, for a black person. When you can sit and hear your grandfather say, "Yea we couldn't eat there and left" and then you look over and see some guy in his pickup headed off to Nascar with his Confederate flag... you make a connection despite the fact that Nascar guy is probably just being himself and not even really thinking.

'Cause you know a lot of crap can happen when the masses are not really thinking about anyone else.

You must first know how our government was formed before you can know how and why States felt they could withdraw from the compact.Many of the states that followed the secession movement left provisions of secession in their agreement to join the union of states and by exceptance of those agreements by the federal government allowing their partisipation in the union of states also adds legality to their secession.Once a stste seceded that state became a sovriegn nation on its own,as it was before it became a state in the union.They were then free to form another government or union as they saw fit and join the world of nations in deplomacy as was fit.

Billy,

I can not venerate courage or skill in the abstract of cause (e.g. many criminals show plenty of courage). Do you think the cause your ancestors fought for was honorable?

Your comment on state rights makes me think so (or at least that there cause was not all bad). Are you arguing that motivation for the war was not slavery?

I do not understand your regional pride comment. I assume you would condemn slavery. Why can you do that, but not condemn the government formed to preserve it?

Tom

Vindiciamus makes the absurd argument that the right to secession was implied, which would seem to rather confound the purpose of a Constitution to begin with. And even if it was implied, one should expect an honorable reason to secede, no?

But all of that state's right stuff is the red herring. You could read the actual statements from local governments in places like Mississippi and see what the issue is:

In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

Yea, that's a principled stand.

Arguably it was more principled then, when slavery was a greater part of ordinary life and you cut them some retrospective slack for living in the times they lived. But when someone today goes out of there way to defend that, you can call it what it is.

"What I think is most intellectually dishonest however, is the desire to shift the meaning of the Civil War to an issue of state's rights".


The issue you speek of was shifted from right of secession of"compromised principles" to slavery between Dec 1861 to april 1862 during the Washington lecture association at the smithsonian institute.Slavery in the district of columbia did not end there untill after the lectures convinced the congress and lincolin to prosecute the war politicly and vigerously against the people of the South and the Confederate Army over slavery.

It is you that are being "intellectually dishonest" in regarde to our arguments,and you that will not look at the truth when it stands before you in plain view sir.

Confederate History Month should be ended, and the Confederate flag should be discarded, replaced, as Yglesias suggests, with "some less provocative emblem of Southern folkways".

I believe I've witnessed the ideal solution. One of my favorite restaurants hangs a picture of MLK next to a painted portrait of Robert E. Lee. Why not have all the legislators voting for Confederate Heritage Month sport lapel pins featuring that tricolor Africa emblem?

Sir

You can call it any thing you wish,i defend my ancestor and not your belief for his actions.You imply that my ancestor fought to preserve slavery as an institution which he did not.He forught for the political Independence of his newly formed nation , what ever civil problems the were contained within that nation was for him and his contemperaries to deal with and not the busness of another nation.In your ststements you relinquish your position and shift to the emotional proposition that slavery is/was wrong and there you stand as if better than i for my defense of my nationality.If the attacking of another country is allowable as you imply in your defense then why have there been no other countries attacked by this benevolant union of yours in the defense of the abolition of slavery in say africa,and other countries where it still to this day excists?

I am not trying to uphold the institution of slavery as right because it is wrong;we do not wish a federal holiday for Confederate History month that would be hipocritical,all we wish is for an understanding and exceptance of the truth, of the reasons our Confederate ancestor fought the War for Southern Independence,and for all to take another view of our symbol the Confederate Battle Flag and NOT relate it so freely to racism as they do for political gain .

Without Columbus, the United States would not exist. Everybody else at the time actually knew how large the Earth was, and had no motive for making the long trip across what they believed was the combined width of the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans to reach Asia. While the reason he was important was a delusion that the Earth was smaller than it was, his actual importance is clearly a threshold that Martin Luther King, Jr. does not meet, either.

An argument can of course be made that the Birthday of Martin Luther King, Jr. "celebrates more than the man, it is also about the fight for civil rights and that struggle is indeed worthy of a day." But that was not the argument made by Mr. Henke, so I saw no need to address it in my comment.

The response, of course, is that the appropriate day would be a "Civil Rights Day" directly honoring the movement, in all its fits and starts across the history of the Republic. We have a Labor Day and a Veterans Day, not a Walter P. Reuther Day and an Alvin York Day.

People react to symbols like flags for emotional reasons, not rational ones. I have seen no evidence that more than a tiny, tiny fraction of people who have a confederate flag support slavery, or even Jim Crow style legally supported racism. (Is there survey data on this? Because dualing anecdotes and armchair speculation isn't capable of furnishing any new information.) Similarly, almost nobody who flies the Stars and Stripes is expressing support for the Trail of Tears, or for the century of slavery our country legally enforced and supported, or occasional invasions and coups carried out on behalf of fruit or oil companies, or for legally supported discrimination and mistreatment of blacks, women, Chinese, American Indians, etc.

ISTM that some people see the confederate flag as a symbol of their home, heritage, people, community. And other see it as a symbol of discrimination, racism, and slavery. Similarly, I expect that a lot of folks in Iraq, or even on an Indian reservation, see a quite different set of things represented by the Stars and Stripes than I do.

Tom,

Criminals think they won't get caught. Southerners soon realized they were outmanned
10 - 1 but fought on.

Yes, I denounce slavery.

Yes, I think fighting a government you very strongly disagree with is a good cause.

As stated above, I do not believe that the war was fought solely exclusively over slavery. It became a war issue nearly 1/2way thru the conflict.

I take it then that Billy thinks that States should have the right to make slavery legal.

Is that about the size of it Billy?

Billy,

Maybe some criminals think they'll never get caught, but longer jail terms do have a deterrent effect because most of them do think about the risks.

But I am still not sure - do you think the Confederacy's cause was honorable?

You say "fighting a government you very strongly disagree with is a good cause." Would you say Timothy McVeigh fought in a good cause?

You appear to suggest that slavery became a "war issue" only after the emancipation proclamation. Lincoln operated until political constraints, which is why the proclamation only covered the states that had seceded. The South saw that the power of the slave states in the Union waning and acted out of fear of what was to come. The war and all the tensions the preceeded it was about slavery. The state right the South was concerned about was the right to indefinitely rob black men and women and their children of freedom.

Tom

Succession wasn't implied; the states while retaining many rights, were no longer nations. When they joined the constitution they were giving up the rights of a nation; such as withdrawing from an alliance. See the Articles of Confederation v. the Constitution. It was pretty clear at the time that any state which ratified the Constitution was giving up their sovereign status. It was not more Constitutional for them to leave than it would be for Boone county to declare their independence from the state of Missouri.

With the exception of Texas I suppose, since they are the only state to explicitly retain the right to secede.

From reading these South Bashing posts it is obvious they need CONFEDERATE HISTORY MONTH. Their information is so biased, wrong, proproganda and pure race baiting fiction.

Teach thyself by reading some recent books on Lincoln and his War. Instead of mouthing media and black activist slander try educating yourself.

ATTACKING SYMBOLS is the terrorism of the day! Bin Laden attacked in the US the White house a symbol of Power; British symbols of heritage have been attacked, French, Indonesia, monuments blasted off of rock in Afganstan, and on around the world. google it.

When you attack a Symbol you are attacking everything they stand for.

The Confederate Battle Flag stands for LIBERTY, and was used by our soldiers in our 2nd War of Independence.

The Confederate Battle Flag was used in Civil Rights 1960s protesting the usurpation of our STATES RIGHTS by the Federal Government. per the precedent set by lincoln's army of invasion and takeover, the black victicrats were used by politicians, media, and their own other black people. They played the race card for money and political gain: proof is evident in the race card, race baiting of today. The civil righters used federal kingdom force to gain the advantage instead of honorable discourse or mediation. Someday the true story will come out, but now we are in the pc race baiting mode and name calling.

The Confederate Battle Flag will always wave forever and forever, because it is the Flag of Truth. The kkk's flag is the US FLAG. Google it. you been lied to. What is the flag of the black kkk?

Re: Fact is The Confederate States of America were formed leagly and Constitutionaly

No they were not. The Constitution spells out in considerable detail how it may be abrogated and replaced with another such compact. The South did not abide those terms.

Re: The property of Ft.Sumter belonged to the people of the Confederate States of America,

No it did not. Fort Sumter sits on an artificial island, created at the expense of the Federal Government and built from granite slabs shipped in from New England. Moreover, property rights are not abrogated simply because a government changes. The Castros no doubt despise our presence in Gitmo, but they have to accept it.

Re: No Nation has the right to attack another nation for any reason unless it is to prevent an attack upon it own soil.

Right, and Fort Sumter was Federal property. Governments have the right to defend their territory, even abroad.

Re: Slavery was Constitutionaly protected by the United States Constitution and was not fullyand properly amended untill the 1870's

Umm, the 13th Amendment passed in 1865.

Re: say that the secession states did so in order to preserve slavery is a red herring issue

Apparently we are not to believe the word of the CSA's own politcal leaders who stated quite flatly and explicitly that they were founding a nation to protect slavery and enshrine the superiority of the white race.
And you know, if you going to put on this laughably phony act like some character that just stepped out of Gone With the Wind (one of the less intelligent characters to be sure) at least go whole hog and argue on favor of slavery too. Tell us the slaves never had it so good and liked slavery. At the least the old-time Confederate apologists were willing to be consistent in their defense of the South.

Re: The Confederate States of America were NOT in rebellion

By any common definition of the term they were-- just as the American colonies were in revolt against Britain 1776. Unlike the 13 Colonies the South had no set of grievances to justify the rebellion. The Federal Government had bent over backwards for much of the 19th century to appease their wishes.

Re: The fact that is is not spicificly written in the Constutution is what makes if constitutional

You know nothing about law. If I sign a contract that does not contain a clause describing how the contract may be abrogated, can I break the contract at will and be secure from a breach of contract lawsuit? I don't think so.

Re: The presidence of secession is set by the second statement made in the "Declaration of Independence

The Declaration is a philsophical document not a legal one. And even so it also specifies in minute details that revolution is justified in the face opf grievances (it goes into very great detail as to the Colonists' grievances) whose victims have exhausted all normal and legal methods of seeking redress.

Again, the flag in question is anachronistic, not authentic. It was likely never the actual battle flag of the Army of Tennessee for even one day.

Now, what the war was about originally and came to be were different for both the USA and the CSA.

Here the perspective from Texas was interesting:

Before the war, the slave-owning political faction was pro-Union and the anti-slavery faction was pro-secession. The pro-secession faction was further divided between those, German-speakers mostly, who wanted to revert to the Republic of Texas and, at least some on Galveston Island, who wanted to secede, join the CSA, and free the slaves in order to gain the support of the UK.

Yes, Texas and Galveston were "out of it" -- far from Charleston or Richmond in every respect.

And, the original positions disappeared quickly, once fighting began in earnest.

The CSA ultimately fought, after Sharpsburg with little hope of winning, increasingly against emancipation.

When Emanicipation finally came, it was on Galveston Island, where secession had been initially popular but emancipation was finally popular and is still celebrated. The war finally ended soon thereafter down on the Rio Grande at Palmetto Bend.

We can never know the past for sure, but some of those as fake Confederate heritage today are just signalling a contemporary political or social agenda.

Ironically, the actual purpose of flags in battle during the war was signalling. There is something fake about discussing the "symbolism" or "sacred" perceptions of flags.

All that smacks of rear-echelon sentimentality, not military practicality. Confederate armies were very practical, as they lacked logistical and political support from a ruling elite that owned slaves and a population that did not.

So, the CSA had to resort to the draft first and never got taxation right.

If the CSA had been willing to sacrifice the benefits of slavery -- "property rights" -- and to fight for "states rights" in a practical and popular way -- abandoning slavery to gain international support and arming black men to fight for their homes and future, the CSA could have won.

But, the South did not win: After Sharpsburg, there was little hope of even a settlement, much less victory.

After Vicksburg, there was nothing but grinding defeat, military occupation, and social division, rather than military, political, or economic integration of the black population of the South.

Don't offend if you don't intend to offend?
I'm reminded of the great Thomas Paine who stated,
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." I at least would rather be honest.

Awesome Caji - thanks for taking care of the the central assumption of the original post.

Out of curiousity, would you like America to return to 1950's style race relations (before the Federal governnment started trampling on states rights)?

Tom

In getting into this topic, one wonders what Stonewall Jackson and Robert Edward Lee fought for. Not so much as a one should follow Plato kind of argument as an insight into the general viewpoint. Also it's hard to see them as evil men. Condoleeza Rice sees her history being in slavery as leaving her with an original sin. It's hard to see how being freed in 1865 vs. any other tine would affect 'original sin.' Lee and Jackson perhaps fought out of a (Edmund) Burkean conservatism, accepting that the institutions that had evolved in Virginia reflected some wisdom and also that, if they were going to be changed, it should be by the voters of Virginia.

You write: "But I'm also reminded of another lesson I learned in childhood: don't do things you know will offend others. Even if you mean no offense, courtesy and a decent respect for your fellow man demands you take their opinions and perceptions into account."

What? So, if I offend someone waving a Confederate flag by telling them that in my opinion it's emblematic of an incredibly destructive war to maintain slavery or [plug in what ever the inane reason], much to the detriment to the Southern states that participated in the rebellion, I'm...uh...boorish?

You should read your 'stuff' aloud and listen to yourself. My son used to say many people like to post on the web just to see their words on a monitor. In your case, I think he's right. Where are you from, anyway? The south? No offense intended.

The funny thing about the whole analogy is that most of us Indians neither use the "Native American" locution nor have a problem with the indian team names. (I mean, come on, think about it: I'm Crow Clan. Do I think Grandfather Crow is *unhappy* we named the clan for him? Teams get named the "redskins" because Indians are symbols of strength, fortitude, fighting spirit. This is not a bad thing.)

The exception is the "professional Indians", like Ward Churchill.

It's hard for me now not to suspect, by analogy, that the people most offended by the Stars and bars aren't also professional offense-takers.

I had family members on both sides who died in the conflict. My great-great uncle, the Confederate Colonel who was the son of a slaveholder and the biggest landowner in the county, fought and died bravely. However, he fought for a mistaken ideal.

The Civil War was about slavery, just as John Brown’s failed insurrection at Harper’s Ferry was about slavery. Secession was carried out by the slave-owning elites, because they realized that with the election of Lincoln they had lost the electoral veto. There would be no more hope of legitimizing slavery by expanding it into the territories. The Republican majority in Congress would see to that. Slavery would remain in the South, condemned by the rest of the country. There was no state-wide vote for secession: rather it was done by conventions, by the elite.

The vast majority of Southerners were not slaveholders. With the beginning of hostilities at Bull Run/Manassas Junction, the ranks of the Confederate soldiers were fighting for their homes, their home states. In summation: ultimately the war was about slavery. The elite seceded because of slavery, but the rank and file fought to defend their home states.

For those who claim that the Civil War was about states’ rights, consider the following. In the Dred Scott case, the Supreme Court ruled against the States’ Rights of the northern states to extend freedom to escaped slaves. The South was quite happy to tread on the States’ Rights of the northern states in order to recapture escaped slaves.

"In the absence of fact those who yell the loudest and longest will be accepted as purveyors of truth"

I have almost totally given up attempting to convince publicly educated folks of the facts relating to the War for Southern Independence. Though I realize I'm on a fool's errand here (yep makes me the fool) I will once again attempt to counter opinion with documented facts.

"The first law of the historian is that he shall never dare utter an untruth. The second is that he shall suppress nothing that is true. Moreover, there shall be no suspicion of partiality in his writing, or of malice." - Cicero (106-43 B.C.)

The supposed Cornerstone speech as recorded in the NY TIMES Archives:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9905E1DD143CE63ABC4E53DFB4678389679FDE

You will likely have to cut and paste the link in your browser window.

This link is a more thorough factual basis for the war than I can reproduce in a short form.

http://www.mises.org/story/952

This last link is the Platform of the Republican Party, the importance of the platform is that it tells the truth about why war was going to happen, it deals with increasing tariffs to twice what the current levels were. Southerner couldn't pay the increased tariffs and survive.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=29620

Speaking before the Georgia legislature, in November 1860, Senator Robert Toombs said, ". . . They [Northern interests] demanded a monopoly of the business of shipbuilding, and got a prohibition against the sale of foreign ships to the citizens of the United States. . . . They demanded a monopoly of the coasting trade, in order to get higher freight prices than they could get in open competition with the carriers of the world. . . . And now, today, if a foreign vessel in Savannah offer [sic] to take your rice, cotton, grain or lumber to New York, or any other American port, for nothing, your laws prohibit it, in order that Northern ship-owners may get enhanced prices for doing your carrying."

I understand it is difficult given the histrionics involved here, but for a second forget we are talking about the War for Southern Independence. Go back through every war, and you find, as I have, that wars are fought over only two issues, money/territory or alternately about power. During WWII everyone was against the Japanese, but German sympathy was great among the general population. Yet the US bombed the German civilian population into annihilation. When Germany was invaded we found the concentration camps and death chambers. After the war historians wrote the justification for going to war and destroying much of Germany was the Holocaust the Jews suffered at the hands of the Nazi's. That was a noble cause, it wasn't true, but it reads well for future generations. Winners write histories, there is no record in history I can find, where the victors admit to being greedy, or power hungry.

The Confederate Battle Flag and indeed all the 163 flags of the Confederacy represent what the people who lived then: who fought and died under those flags believed them to represent. They earned that right by being willing to die for their beliefs. Anyone's disapproval of those flags is exactly like a Television show you don't like, change the channel or don't look. Southern/Confederate Americans are losing their regional identity because we are once again being invaded and most Northerners don't appreciate Confederate sentiments. The final question really is this, who has the right to say a person's respect and admiration for their ancestors is outweighed by another person's opinion that that symbol is bad?

My nationality is Confederate, just like theirs is yankee.They can have theirs and by their laws they must let me have mine.My Confederate brothers we have not yet surfaced from the depths of their continued reconstruction, if they will not allow us our heritage and nationality.It is as if they wish us to be them,they wish to force their nationality on us because they were alone.We know what we know, and they will not excetp we are our own.

Wow...Megan's readership appears to include honest-to-goodness, unreconstructed Confederates. I'm a Southerner myself, and I have trouble believing anyone is still around that's willing to put these kinds of arguments out. Good catch, McMegan.

And you know what guys? It's ok to stop defending your ancestors. My ancestors owned slaves and my great-great-great-grandfather surrendered with Lee at Appomatox, but this doesn't stop me from pointing out that those men where hugely, horribly, irrevocably wrong. Can any of these neo-confederates please tell me why the CSA seceded in the first place? Anyone? I seem to remember the election of an abolitionist president having something to do with it...

Ancestor worship is silly. Some of my ancestors were great men, others were undoubtedly evil. Most of them were probably ordinary folk just trying to get through the day. If you go back a ways, I have ancestors who were apes and monkeys (I'm not a primatologist...I don't actually know the difference between the two...don't bother to correct me). If you go back even further, some of my answers were quite like amoebas. I'm not ashamed of that fact, nor proud.

Toxic, do you have a problem with the existence of West Virginia?

"It's hard for me now not to suspect, by analogy, that the people most offended by the Stars and bars aren't also professional offense-takers."


Posted by Charlie (Colorado) | April 5, 2008 10:11 PM

X2

also, serious believers in, or dupes thereof, the 'divide and conquer' crowd..

""In the absence of fact those who yell the loudest and longest will be accepted as purveyors of truth"

I have almost totally given up attempting to convince publicly educated folks of the facts relating to the War for Southern Independence. Though I realize I'm on a fool's errand here (yep makes me the fool) I will once again attempt to counter opinion with documented facts.

"The first law of the historian is that he shall never dare utter an untruth. The second is that he shall suppress nothing that is true. Moreover, there shall be no suspicion of partiality in his writing, or of malice." - Cicero (106-43 B.C.)

The supposed Cornerstone speech as recorded in the NY TIMES Archives:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9905E1DD143CE63ABC4E53DFB4678389679FDE

You will likely have to cut and paste the link in your browser window.

This link is a more thorough factual basis for the war than I can reproduce in a short form.

http://www.mises.org/story/952

This last link is the Platform of the Republican Party, the importance of the platform is that it tells the truth about why war was going to happen, it deals with increasing tariffs to twice what the current levels were. Southerner couldn't pay the increased tariffs and survive.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=29620

Speaking before the Georgia legislature, in November 1860, Senator Robert Toombs said, ". . . They [Northern interests] demanded a monopoly of the business of shipbuilding, and got a prohibition against the sale of foreign ships to the citizens of the United States. . . . They demanded a monopoly of the coasting trade, in order to get higher freight prices than they could get in open competition with the carriers of the world. . . . And now, today, if a foreign vessel in Savannah offer [sic] to take your rice, cotton, grain or lumber to New York, or any other American port, for nothing, your laws prohibit it, in order that Northern ship-owners may get enhanced prices for doing your carrying."

I understand it is difficult given the histrionics involved here, but for a second forget we are talking about the War for Southern Independence. Go back through every war, and you find, as I have, that wars are fought over only two issues, money/territory or alternately about power. During WWII everyone was against the Japanese, but German sympathy was great among the general population. Yet the US bombed the German civilian population into annihilation. When Germany was invaded we found the concentration camps and death chambers. After the war historians wrote the justification for going to war and destroying much of Germany was the Holocaust the Jews suffered at the hands of the Nazi's. That was a noble cause, it wasn't true, but it reads well for future generations. Winners write histories, there is no record in history I can find, where the victors admit to being greedy, or power hungry.

The Confederate Battle Flag and indeed all the 163 flags of the Confederacy represent what the people who lived then: who fought and died under those flags believed them to represent. They earned that right by being willing to die for their beliefs. Anyone's disapproval of those flags is exactly like a Television show you don't like, change the channel or don't look. Southern/Confederate Americans are losing their regional identity because we are once again being invaded and most Northerners don't appreciate Confederate sentiments. The final question really is this, who has the right to say a person's respect and admiration for their ancestors is outweighed by another person's opinion that that symbol is bad?

Posted by Rev. Dr. William H. Swann | April 6, 2008 12:50 AM

X2

Thankfully, some learnedness is extant to slip through the cracks..

"And what MLK's birthday honors isn't that one black guy; it's the Civil Rights movement" brooksfoe

I agree, in principle. Still it's not called "Civil Rights Movement Day" or "Anti-racism Day" and I get the strong impression calling it that would be treated with hostility.

"the Confederate flag should be discarded, replaced, as Yglesias suggests, with "some less provocative emblem of Southern folkways".

Such as?" the ad

This is something of a quandary, although I see it as a different quandary than you. Still I'm not sure there is another symbol for Southerness itself because the South was never unified otherwise. So you'd need to create a symbol and it might be difficult to make some newly invented symbol meaningful.

"The South is associated with slavery and segregation, which means that anything used to symbolise it will also become associated with those things." ad

I don't agree. There are many aspects of "Southerness" that can be seen early in colonial history, well before slavery became too widespread. If "Southerness" were always something equated to slavery or racism than it should be more similar to Afrikaaner or white Rhodesian culture than it ever was or will be.

The South is much more English, specifically South English, influenced than other regions. The influence of the Dutch, Poles, Italians, Quakers, or Catholics was generally less in the history of the US South. (Outside of Louisiana, which was an outlier in terms of Catholic or Italian population) The original Southern colonists also tended to be Cavaliers rather than Cromwellians. Hence Romanticism and Medievalism were more common in the South. The South was traditionally more agrarian, even from an early point. Southerness traditionally valued well tradition. Utopian movements or complete breaks with the past were less acceptable. Their Medievalism/Ruralism also relates to a more casual view of violence to animals. To a Yankee a young boy who shot at wild animals would be seen as more likely to be disturbed than a Southern boy traditionally would. And because of cultural factors a Yankee boy who did such things probably is more likely to be disturbed because he's bucking his society in favor of violence. (I think that's true when comparing either black or white Southern/Yankee children.) Although there is also a strong influence of pre-modern Scottish/Calvinist ideas in the South, particularly the mountainous segments. This relates to a strong degree of value for kinship ties and loyalties. A Southerner can accept a gay relative while simultaneously disliking "queers" or believe that girls should be shunned for illegitimacy while supporting his/her daughter's illegitimate family. A Northerner can do that too, but I think they worry more about it being hypocritical. Southerners, in my experience, don't worry about that. In their mind's eye you are supposed to be more forgiving of family and doing so is not inconsistent. Both the Scottish and English threads relate to a strong military tradition. None of the things just mentioned necessarily has anything to do with racism or slavery.

However it also has nothing to do with the Confederacy. The "Confederate States" only existed for a few years. So I think a "Confederate Heritage Month" is basically idiotic. It'd make more sense to have a "History of the US South" month or some such.

re: There would be no more hope of legitimizing slavery by expanding it into the territories.

The huge irony to this is that none of the remaining territories were apt for slavery. Slavery in, say, New Mexico or Nevada, would only have inolved domestic servants, not the labor intensive plantation agriculture of the Cotton Belt. The only way the South could have added new slave states where slavery was truly an economic force to be reckoned with was to conquer territory in the Carribbean, something that some Southerners agitated for.

If "Southerness" were always something equated to slavery or racism than it should be more similar to Afrikaaner or white Rhodesian culture than it ever was or will be. - Thomas R

Not so sure you're on solid ground here. Barbecues? Check. Gun ownership? Check. Intense religiosity? Check. Tendency towards anti-intellectualism? Check. Football/rugby (disproportionately over soccer, baseball, basketball, etc.)? Check. Privileging of rural roots over urban cosmopolitanism? Check. Etc.

Afrikaner and white Rhodesian culture aren't reducible to racism either, but the regions' histories have a lot in common and have shaped their respective cultures.

"the Confederate flag should be discarded, replaced, as Yglesias suggests, with "some less provocative emblem of Southern folkways".
Such as?" the ad
This is something of a quandary, although I see it as a different quandary than you. Still I'm not sure there is another symbol for Southerness itself because the South was never unified otherwise. So you'd need to create a symbol and it might be difficult to make some newly invented symbol meaningful.

Thomas, I don’t think it matters. Whenever people think of things unique to the South they think, perhaps amongst other things, of its “peculiar institution”, and segregation. So if your symbol makes people think of the South, it will make them think of this.


"The South is associated with slavery and segregation, which means that anything used to symbolise it will also become associated with those things." ad
I don't agree. There are many aspects of "Southerness" that can be seen early in colonial history, well before slavery became too widespread. If "Southerness" were always something equated to slavery or racism than it should be more similar to Afrikaaner or white Rhodesian culture than it ever was or will be.

South Carolina was originally founded to buy slaves from the American Indians for sale on Barbados. As the colony grew it switched into plantation rice production for the Caribbean and Europe. Then the South moved into cotton production.

I don’t hold it against them: anyone else on the Earth would have done the same.

I do hold segregation against their des