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The good old days weren't always good, and tomorrow ain't as bad as it seems

25 Apr 2008 04:37 pm

Lots of people, including [cough] me [/cough] argue that the current administration is gutting the fourth amendment. They also argued that the last administration was gutting the fourth amendment--the lefty lawyer I worked for in Philadelphia was quite eloquent on the topic at the time. Bush I gutted the fourth amendment, also Reagan, Carter, Ford, and Nixon. Well, actually, their supreme courts did. That fourth amendment sure has a lot of guts.

Orin Kerr points out that this is a slight bit of romanticism:

I wonder, though, when exactly were the "good old days" of the Fourth Amendment? Clearly the "good old days" of the Fourth Amendment could not be from 1791 to 1961, before the full application of the Fourth Amendment to the states. Before 1961, the Fourth Amendment didn't do much, as most police work was state local and the Fourth Amendment either didn't apply at all (until 1949) or didn't make any difference in practice (from 1949 to 1961). In 1961, with Mapp v. Ohio, the Fourth Amendment suddenly became a hugely important control on routine police investigations: Maybe if you want to pick a time of the "good old days" of the Fourth Amendment, you say 1961.

But no, that can't work. 1961 was before Berger and Katz, before the "reasonable expectation of privacy" test and before the Fourth Amendment applied at all to bugging or wiretapping. So the good old days probably don't include from 1961 to 1967. Maybe we want to start the good old days on December 18, 1967, when the Supreme Court handed down Katz.

Maybe. On the other hand, the record in that period is sort of mixed. A few months before Katz, on May 29, the Supreme Court had dramatically expanded the warrant power and overruled the mere evidence rule in Warden v. Hayden. And just a few months after Katz, in Terry v. Ohio, handed down June 10, 1968, the Supreme Court took a significantly watered down approach to the Fourth Amendment to regulate police/citizen interactions on the street. It's kind of hard to know how you balance these cases: for example, was Terry a gutting of the full Fourth Amendment protection, or an expansion of the Fourth Amendment to street enounters? I think it's pretty mixed record to find the real high point of Fourth Amendment protection.

The Supreme Court's record since 1968 is also somewhat mixed. It is clearly correct that there are some cases that clearly narrowed Fourth Amendment protection, like United States v. Leon. But a number of the cases that critics say "eviscerated" the Fourth Amendment simply refused to expand Fourth Amendment protections or addressed issues that had never been resolved, like the many cases on aerial surveillance. And then there were also some cases that expanded protection, like Payton v. New York or Kyllo v. United States.

If you had to identify a "high point" of Fourth Amendment protection, I suppose you might pick the window from December 1967 to May 1968, or maybe the six years from December 1967 until some of the pro-law enforcement decisions of the Court in 1973.

This reminds me of P.J. O'Rourke's description of the Vasa, a restored ship on display in Stockholm:

The Vasa was, as the guidebook put it, "the mightiest royal warship of her times". The Vasa's wreck was discovered in 1956, and she was raised almost intact after five years of work by diving crews. The hull was enclosed in a shed and sprayed with wood presesrvative for another seventeen years. Then restorations began and finally, in 1990, the Vasamuseet opened, a noble, copper-sheathed, tent-shaped structure housing the ship and seven floors of displays and exhibits. Which is all well and good. However, the Vasa was launched on August 10, 1628, sailed 1,400 yards, and sank like a brick. "The mightiest royal warship of her times"--her times being August 10, 1628, from 4:30 until 5 in the afternoon.

(from Eat the Rich)

It also puts me in mind of something I wrote a while back:

I'm thinking of the purveyors of political and social doom. A few weeks ago, I was talking to a libertarian who was arguing that the Patriot Act was a one-way ticket to totalitarianism. We were violating fundamental rights that had been enshrined in the constitution for 200 years, and once we'd given them up, it was going to be a short step on the slippery slope to a police state. I share her fear of government intrusiveness. But this a markedly ahistorical view of the constitution and the liberties it allows us to enjoy, which is no more accurate for its extreme prevalence in libertarian circles. There is no primal state of liberty, created by the Constitution, from which we have slowly but inexorably been moving away. Liberties have been granted, and taken away, and granted again throughout the history of our country. Just off the top of my head: Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus, the Palmer raids, the detention of the west coast Japanese in camps during World War II, the committment of anyone FDR or one of his minion's thought was especially dangerous to the war effort to St. Elizabeth's mental hospital during same, the McCarthy hearings--see this wonderful Richard Posner piece for a more elegant exegisis of the history of American liberties. The shape of liberty has changed over the 200 years of our existence, expanding in some places and contracting in others. There is no libertarian eden, located somewhere in the American past, from which we are now fallen, or falling.

Now, this doesn't mean that the Patriot Act is a good thing. But the fact that we have the Patriot Act now does not mean, as many libertarians ardently argue, that we will always have the Patriot Act. If the Patriot Act is bad, we should vigorously fight it. But there is no need to construct doomsday scenarios in which the existance of the Patriot Act consigns us to a totalitarian future.

Not to dump on libertarians exclusively, because everyone seems to do it. Social conservatives think we're doomed because the institution of marriage has been dangerously undermined, and is therefore likely to disappear entirely, along with God, patriotism, and the super-sized big mac meal, if we don't do something, quick. A large number of wonkish types (including, on odd days, me) spend a lot of time worrying about the possibility that our old-age entitlements will drive us into disastrous bankruptcy; few of us stop to reflect on the many, many unsustainable economic trends that have worried policy wonks right up until the moment that the impending doom suddenly solved itself under the inexorable logic of Herb Stein's famous dictum: "If something can't go on forever, it won't." Many liberals, like Paul Krugman, think that we nearly got into socioeconomic eden sometime around 1966, give or take, and have been staging a fast retreat towards armageddon ever since; marginal tax rates and some forms of social spending here take the part of doom-bringer, even though on every measure except simple inequality, the lives of the poor and the middle class seem to be richer in material goods, leisure, and quality of work than they were in the Golden Era of America's Middle Class.

That's not to say that liberals shouldn't want more progressive taxes and social spending, policy wonks more sustainably structured entitlements, social conservatives more traditional cultural values, or libertarians more freedom. It's perfectly reasonable to look at the way things are and say "they could be so much better if . . . " What we shouldn't do is compare our present to some highly airbrushed past, or mindlessly extrapolate trends, and thereby hastily conclude that we're all going to hell in a handbasket.

Just to reiterate: I do not like the Patriot Act. I very much do not like it. But I dislike it because it gives the state powers I don't want the state to have, not because I think it's a short step from here to Nazi Germany. It's a lot of pretty long steps from here to Nazi Germany (or Stalinist Russia), and thank God for that. It means we still have time to repeal the damn Patriot Act.

Comments (32)

But you're missing the most important feature of the Patriot Act -- it's the easiest way to claim that you're a dissident. Talk about low barriers to entry. You don't have to go through all the ugly work of actually dissenting from anyone or anything. All you do is have to stand up and say you oppose the Patriot Act and bam -- you're now a brave dissenter. Heck, you don't even have to read the act. What other legislation asks so little and gives so much?

While not romanticizing the past, it may be worthwhile to look back for some perspective. (At least, for those with a little knowledge of history -- a smaller group than one might prefer.)

Take, for example, taxes. In California, from the early 1950s thru the mid-1960s, we managed to
a) build an educational system from elementary school thru college which was the envy of the world,
b) build an enormous highway system, and
c) build a water movement system which, whatever its merits, was certainly not cheap.
Not to mention maintaining a system of mental institutions which provided at least decent room and board for a lot of those who now constitute the homeless.
And yet, somehow taxes did not destroy the middle class, nor the economy.

Today, the highway system is barely maintained in drivable condition. There are constant cries about the state of education and the need for more money. Nothing significant has been spent on the water system in decades. And, as noted, we have a significant problem with mentally ill individuals who attempt to live on the streets because they have no viable alternatives.

So either
a) taxes were a lot higher then and were not a problem, or
b) spending on virtually everything else was microscopic, or, most likely,
c) some mixture of both.

It would be interesting to look at how much of the California economy goes to paying for the state government now vs. then. And where the money goes today, as opposed to the earlier period. But somehow, nobody on either side of the debates about the state's finances ever does. One must wonder why....

P.S. No doubt other states have similar experiences somewhere in their past. California just happens to be the one I know first hand. Anybody else have an example?

God damn you're so tedious! You make all these claims:

Lots of people, including [cough] me [/cough] argue that the current administration is gutting the fourth amendment. They also argued that the last administration was gutting the fourth amendment--the lefty lawyer I worked for in Philadelphia was quite eloquent on the topic at the time. Bush I gutted the fourth amendment, also Reagan, Carter, Ford, and Nixon. Well, actually, their supreme courts did. That fourth amendment sure has a lot of guts.

without a single link to back up your claims!

LEARN HOW TO BLOG, GOD DAMN IT!

Lots of people, including [cough] me [/cough] argue that the current administration is gutting the fourth amendment.

Yeah, but remember that lots of people (cough), bought the Republican talking points that Kerry could have been worse. Even some self-proclaimed libertarians, despite the fact that Bush, Jr. is objectively the least libertarian president since FRoo. Look it up.

Very well reasoned, despite the 'lack of links (?)'.

And +1,000,000 points for the excellent reference in the title.

Part 1/2

Take, for example, taxes. In California, from the early 1950s thru the mid-1960s, we managed to a) build an educational system from elementary school thru college which was the envy of the world, b) build an enormous highway system, and c) build a water movement system which, whatever its merits, was certainly not cheap. Not to mention maintaining a system of mental institutions which provided at least decent room and board for a lot of those who now constitute the homeless. And yet, somehow taxes did not destroy the middle class, nor the economy.
Today, the highway system is barely maintained in drivable condition.

I don’t think this is true. In any case, roads get a lot more usage now than they did then. California’s population in 1950 was ca. 10 MM; it is now ca. 37 MM), plus people drive more now.

There are constant cries about the state of education and the need for more money.

There’s a first. An entrenched bureaucracy claiming it needs more money. And yet, the University of California easily stumps up $4.5 MM/y for the new post of Vice Chancellor for equity and inclusion. Are we getting a hint as to where the money earmarked for education is actually going? That office’s budget alone could fund the fully-burdened salaries of 10 tenured professors.

And as for primary and secondary education, note that the Census figures show that California spent $66 billion for the 2005-6 school year. Not exactly chump change. So where exactly does it all go, or can the school districts’ version of the Vice Chancellor for equity and inclusion shed any light on this?

Nothing significant has been spent on the water system in decades.

First, why do think this is true, and second, if it is, what makes you think spending is needed? I don’t track expenditures on the water system, so I don’t know the answer to either question.

And, as noted, we have a significant problem with mentally ill individuals who attempt to live on the streets because they have no viable alternatives.

Not true. First, many mentally ill people want to live free of any restrictions on their behavior – such as using alcohol or drugs – and resist efforts to “help” them. See
this for a take on the problem from SF, the most liberal city in America.

Second, the reason they’re running around loose is that involuntary commitment was made vastly more difficult by a Supreme Court ruling in 1975. Institutionalizing someone involuntarily is now exceedingly difficult.

The Supreme Court ruling followed on the heels of California’s
Lanterman-Petris-Short Act (1967) that made such commitment difficult. That’s why there are so many nuts running around loose.

Nuetellan, I beseech thee to just go away, as opposed to hanging around here and being unhappy, spraying cyberspittle all over everything. It is a nearly infinite universe we are participating in, this internet-thingy, and surely it doesn't make sense for you to spend time on this tiny speck.

I believe that Nutella once acknowledged that he has a chronic pain condition requiring him to take a drug cocktail fairly similar to what did in Heath Ledger.

As such, I try to read his posts with an eye toward which ones are the drugs talking, and which ones are merely Nutella being assinine for reasons only he can explain. So far an accurate line of demarcation has proven impossible to locate, which may be a sign of impending liver failure.

we have a significant problem with mentally ill individuals who attempt to live on the streets because they have no viable alternatives

I was going to say that that's because we can't elect all of them to Congress, but I desisted. /g

It is impossible for an Administration to "gut" any provision of the Constitution. Only the Supreme Court can do that. And Kerr covers that pretty well.

As to the Patriot Act, it would help the discussion for you to quote the provision or provisions you don't like. Nearly all the stuff that is railed against from the Act long predates the Patriot Act itself, in laws directed against organized crime and drug traffickers. The Patriot Act just made those provisions applicable to terrorism. So if you want to have a conversation about the Patriot Act, quote us the provision you don't like and we can discuss its history and effect.

WJ:
Federal spending in real per-capita terms has increased dramatically since the 1960s. As a percentage of GDP, which is less meaningful in terms of what can be accomplished, it's been roughly constant. State and local spending have increased by both measures, as has domestic Federal spending (military spending has fallen from about 9% of GDP in 1960 to about 4% today and remained roughly constant in real per-capita terms).

In real per-capita terms, total government spending in the US has tripled since 1960, with total domestic spending more than quadrupling. The problem is that there's been a huge shift in priorities from building useful public goods towards income transfers and other forms of handouts.

See my posts here and here for details, with charts and citations.

Don't mean to not or pick,

But why is Fourth Amendment not capitalized? Same thing with the Supreme Court? Has The Atlantic gone lefty? Do they spell America with a "k"?

Please advise, Mousy.

It's a lot of pretty long steps from here to Nazi Germany (or Stalinist Russia), and thank God for that. It means we still have time to repeal the damn Patriot Act.

Yes. But of course historical context is everything. Since we've already violated Godwin's Law, I can go ahead and point out that when Hitler revoked Jews' citizenship rights, he was revoking something they'd only had since the late 1800s. When Stalin revoked Russians' rights to freedom of speech, movement, etc., he was revoking rights they'd only had since...uh...never, I think. And so on.

I agree with what I think you're saying, which is that there was a great deal of institutional fragility in Russia and Germany that we don't have.

I have nothing substantive to say. (I know, when does that stop any of us) But I really did think I was the only person alive who remembered Billy Joel with any sort of fondness.

Of course there is a difference between a totalitarian state run by the idiots who think that they will lose their power unless they watch and control the actions of every citizen of the state all the time, and the state run by the the more sophisticated, but equally evil, authoritarians who understand that most citizens, for the most part, do not care about the lofty things such as right to dissent and and habeas corpus and it is enough to muzzle the rest of them by the threat of immediate imprisonment over the slightest intimations of opposition to the rulers.

Re: I don’t think this is true. In any case, roads get a lot more usage now than they did then.

I don't know about California, but a lot of freeways I know are in better shape than they were when I was growing up. I recall lots of dangerously short entrance and exit ramps, hairpin turns, too-narrow bridges, remarkably poorly designed interchanges creating risky patterns of weaving, and noisome outhouses at the highway rest stops. We've widened bridges, eliminated many sharp curves, turned problematic interchanges into virtual works of art with soaring ramps and viaducts, lenghthened merge lanes, and built modern rest stops that range from merely decent to palatial. Hardly evidence of neglect.

Re: First, many mentally ill people want to live free of any restrictions on their behavior – such as using alcohol or drugs – and resist efforts to “help” them.

It's very difficult to commit people no matter how incapable they are of caring for themselves. You basically have to wait until they harm someone else or try to commit suicide, and even then they are back out on the street soon enough.

Occam, I think you have missed the point. Points, actually.

- the roads do get more use now than they did then. But it is cheaper to maintain a road than to build it in the first place. And there are more people paying taxes, as well as using the roads.
- ditto for maintaining a water system. Check out the cost of the California Water Project -- all those canals to move vast quantities of water from the center of the state to Los Angeles. Not to mention a bunch of other water movement systems.
- of course bureaucracies waste money. But then, they always have. (And your excitement about the absolute numbers recently overlooks the detail that inflation has run them up. Comparisons that are all in 1960 or 2005 dollars are more useful.)

On one other point, the dumping of mentally ill people onto the streets was NOT the result of a court decision. It was the result of legislative action, driven by some well-meaning people who thought "community care" would be better for them. Combined with a fairly complete lack of funding for such care.

All of which comes down to my main point: where is the all money going now, that it didn't go then? Maybe we are doing something particularly useful now that we hadn't started doing in 1960. But the only major difference that leaps to mind is building lots of prisons, and paying lots of prison guards, to house users of illegal drugs. And that can't be a majority of the additional spending. Can it?

Yes, it really is hard to compare the differences in controlling the population of Germany and Russia with controlling the population of the United States.

On one other point, the dumping of mentally ill people onto the streets was NOT the result of a court decision. It was the result of legislative action, driven by some well-meaning people who thought "community care" would be better for them.

True. In California it was the result of legislative action in 1967 that set the tone for the Supreme Court decision of 1975 that made the problem nationwide.

My point about educational funding was that huge sums are poured into it, and that the anecdote about the recently created position of vice chancellor for equity and diversity certainly raises some noisome questions about how it is being spent.

But basically, I agree with your question: where does all the money go? If I mistook your point to be the preamble to a lefty rant, I apologize.

No problem. (Although being mistaken for a lefty is certainly an amusing novelty.)

If and when we get a handle on where the money is going (especially now, as opposed to then), we can move on to the next question: are we getting good value for what we spend?

For example, if we spend [to pull a number totally out of the air; no accuracy expected] 50% more (in constant dollars) per pupil, and get less well educated individuals out the other end, there are three obvious possibilities:
- children have gotten stupider,
- teaching methodologies have gotten less effective,
- parents are not insisting that their children learn.

Pardon me if I beg leave to doubt that the first is the major factor -- even assuming that there has been any change at all. If I had to bet, I'd go for a combination of the second and third.

Thanks. I wonder where all the money goes, too, and strongly suspect that a considerable proportion goes to lefty programs, aka graft. Back in the day a friend and I examined the accounts of the associated students of the University of California (i.e., our fees). Individuals items were a typically few hundred bucks, but one jumped off the page: $11,000 for the "Educational Liberation Front." It was two orders of magnitude larger than any other single item, and totally unaccounted for.

I strongly suspect that the educational establishment today has its "Educational Liberation Front" slush funds too.

It helps if you let people "retire", after a lot fewer years than the private sector does, and then immediately rehire them full time at a higher salary. See the story on the UC Berkeley police chief last week.

wj, nothing would surprise me, except for financial probity. That would surprise the hell out of me.

I really don't get the complaints over the U SAP A TRIOT Act. From the point of view of liberty, the stuff it did is small potatoes compared to George Bush's attempt to claim the power to label anyone in the world an "enemy combatant," based on criteria determined by him and not subject to any kind of review by anyone, and have them imprisoned forever. Fortunately, the Supreme Court said they had to be tried but Congress turned around and said the "enemy combatants" would be tried by kangaroo courts.

Bush's apologists on this issue like to argue that the government can be trusted 100% but I doubt they will be so sanguine when Barack HUSSEIN Obama is the one deciding who the "enemy combatants" are.

Elliott, military tribunals are the usual fora for such determinations. Nothing new there. IIRC, the new bit is that this war hasn't been declared, so necessitating new legislation to cover this situation.

NB: again, IIRC, under the Geneva Protocols only those wearing identification as combatants, in a organization with an established command structure, carrying their arms openly, AND offering their prisoners the protection of the Geneva Protocols, are themselves to be granted that same protection.

Anyone who does not meet all four criteria is an illegal combatant who can be tried by a military tribunal and shot. That military tribunal can be on the battlefield, and held by the officer in command.

WHAAAT? FDR committed people to mental hispitals?

I googled, but the only thing I came up with was, Ezra Pound was institutionalized for 12 years instead of being hanged for treason. This happened after the war was over.

WHAAAT? FDR committed people to mental hospitals?

I googled, but the only thing I came up with was, Ezra Pound was institutionalized for 12 years instead of being hanged for treason. This happened after the war was over.

I tend to agree with your critique of what I usually call "libertarian millenialism," which reached its peak with the "DEFEND TEH CONSTITUSHUN! VOTE RON PAUL!" campaign this year.
That said, concerns about the Patriot Act, terrorism funding, and the "unitary executive" theory are extremely valid. They are by no means necessarily irrevocable steps on the road to serfdom, but they are steps nonetheless. Especially the unitary executive theory, which really is novel in American history.
As I said, these steps are not irrevocable. However, electing the wrong President (hint: first initial "H," last name ending in "ton") would begin the process of cementing those steps. Historically, most expansions of government power have been followed by contractions; but electing the wrong President can prevent or mitigate the contraction, thereby making some of the changes on the road to serfdom irrevocable.
Awhile back, Megan wrote something to the effect that her support of Obama was largely conditioned on what she perceives is his respect for process, where HRC essentially failed in that vital category (can't remember what she wrote about McCain). I suspect this assessment is fairly accurate, and pretty closely explains why I am willing to largely overlook Obama's heresy on free trade and economics. It's also why I worry about a McCain presidency, since a more aggressively fought GWOT makes it more likely that the expansions of government power of the last 8 years will become more permanent.
Bottom line: the Patriot Act's incursions into the Fourth Amendment, and the Bush Administration's general disregard of Constitutional processes are likely not irrevocable steps towards totalitarianism. But they are steps nonetheless, and can be made irrevocable should the electorate push the wrong group of people into office again.

It means we still have time to repeal the damn Patriot Act.

That's remarkably un-nuanced and immoderate, Megan.

I mean, the entire Act is a huge, sprawling thing, most of which is innocuous to liberty, as I believe even the stalwart ACLU has decided.

It's more effective, better, and more ntellectually honest to push for the repeal of specific provisions of the Act that are dangerous - indirectly or directly - to liberty, than to call for the repeal of the entire Act.

If no other reason compels you, let it be to set yourself apart from those who know nothing of the Act other than that others have told them it's "bad", and that it should be repealed; people who, in my discussions with them, can point out not a single provision they disagree with, but nonetheless use it as a watchword for grasping state perfidy, and follow clueless reporters in assigning to the Act provisions it does not have, and blaming it for overreaches it doesn't even support.

We still have time to make this country good. Do we have people who care enough? That is the question, because if we don't, one can safely assume that the trends will continue, especially if - as you argue - they ARE rooted in some precedent from the past. Nobody's trying to romanticize the "good ol' days" - we're simply saying that we don't want to live with this government.

Germany's slide into Naziism was not overnight - it took a while as well. But that is immaterial if people do not act to change the course in which things are sliding. A bit of hysteria is sometimes necessary to get people to see the stakes, though I agree that sometimes libertarians overplay their hands. Libertarians need to be more nuanced and better appeal to people's interests, instead of playing out their particular utopias in their heads and blogs.

I wonder though, Megan, how you'd feel if you were the victim, say, of a Patriot Act provision. If you were declared an enemy combatant, drugged, tortured, interrogated constantly, with no hope of any sort of due process, I wonder if the big picture and the national stakes would change for you in any way.

Would it MATTER to you that most of your fellow citizens live lives of relative freedom? Or would you beg and plead with them to do something to help you? A lot of the hysteria comes from people who hear the cries of the oppressed and simply don't wish to ignore it, take it in stride, or "balance" it with other interests.


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