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The real problem with the media is . . .

09 Apr 2008 12:30 pm

Of course, I would have to turn in my MSM Secret Decoder Ring if I did not follow up my criticism of Glenn Greenwald's take on "What's Wrong With the Media" with . . . my own take on "What's Wrong With the Media". Caveat Emptor.

Some of my current readers will no doubt be surprised to hear that I actually share Glenn Greenwald's frustration with the "Obama: Hot or Not?" coverage the often dominates campaign news cycles. I just disagree with his diagnosis of the underlying causes. Mr Greenwald locates the problem in a corrupt journalistic culture that wants to protect itself and the powerful by denying readers vital information. I think the problem is a side effect of powerful structural changes in the marketplace.

100 years ago, readers had three choices if they wanted news. They could actually be there. They could talk to someone who had actually been there. Or they could read about it. Print media has been in decline since radio offered a fourth competitive source. I don't expect that to reverse any time soon.

The golden age of news, as far as many journalists are concerned, was the 1950s-1970s, when serious, wonky anchors led America through the news from 5-7 every evening. I have my doubts as to whether this was actually as wonderful as many people think; oligopolies set off my libertarian bat-signal. But I am in agreement that we have certainly lost something since then.

The fragmentation of media is good for people like me and Glenn Greenwald, since we get to go deeper into issues than any television station, maybe any news outlet, ever could. But it has had funny effects on the MSM news cycle. The news cycle is now dominated by television because everything is so fragmented. Even though television stations are losing viewers, the decline of the print press and the fragmentation of the web mean that television's role in forming the "common narrative" is growing even as television itself becomes less common.

Television news is very hard to produce--I've guest hosted a show, and it left me with giant respect for what it takes to do well. And television news is very, very good at certain kinds of coverage--war footage is more compelling than war correspondence. But there are lots of stories that television is really, really, really bad at. Stories like John Yoo, or the subprime crisis.

Complicated policy stories that involve a lot of reading make terrible television. The three networks used to force those kinds of stories on their readers, at least to some extent, because they could; between the hours of five and seven you could watch stories about John Yoo, or, well, I guess you could finally regrout that bathroom tile.

Proliferating competition from other news outlets, and from all the non-news entertainment on the television, the web, the DVD player, and the video game console, mean that viewers are much harder to retain. Thus, more and more television coverage focuses on the stories that are easy to cover--the Jeremiah Wright story, for example, which looks much different when you read the speeches than when you watch incendiary clips. Or John Edwards' hair. Or Hillary's tears.

Unfortunately for print journalists, what television will cover drives the major narratives of the campaigns--this may be why campaigns seem, at least to me, to be ever more focused on personality than on substance. We have to write about Obama's bowling score, because the fact that television covers it makes it important. If this is one of the things that will decide the election, it's news, even if it's completely stupid. Most non-journalists don't realize this, but the New York Times' gigantic power as a media outlet doesn't come from its readership, which is not that huge. It comes from the fact that television news directors often take stories off the Times.

The other sad truth is that readers--even readers of the New York Times--like those stories. Whether or not we should, we care tremendously about the ordinary things that signal to us what kind of politicians our leaders are.

I'd argue that whether George Bush became president had a lot more to do with what happened over the last eight years than John Yoo did. Presidential candidates are big stories. And because trivial details of their lives matter tremendously in the elections, those trivial details are big stories. Not because journalists think that they're metaphysically important, but because they drive political outcomes.

What Mr Greenwald sees as malign influence, I see as a structural problem that I don't know how to solve. And in some sense, I'm not sure that we should solve it. Mr Greenwald accuses me of being elitist for saying that Americans are morons who don't care about torture memos. I think there's something elitist about that claim--that people who don't care about what Greenwald and I want to write about must therefore be morons. I figure most of them are people who've had a long day with work and kids, and just don't have the energy for parsing complicated, troubling stories. Some people derive energy from reading political news that makes them angry, but most people don't. They just want to relax and have a few hours of enjoyment before they get up and do the whole thing again tomorrow.

I don't know that this diagnosis is right either, of course, but the main thing is that I don't see something judgemental in observing that most people don't want to read what Mr Greenwald and I would most love to write. I think that it's rather more elitist to assume that failing to share the burning interests of a handful of hypereducated wordsmiths necessarily means that there's something wrong with you.

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Comments (185)

"They just want to relax and have a few hours of enjoyment before they get up and do the whole thing again tomorrow." --MM

Nice, the "They're just Rats in a Maze" excuse for the current state of the edu-info-tainment approach to the 'News' delivery business.

Way to go MM, at least you're honest about being shill, maybe now, you'll give up your 'Libertarian' pretense.

While you're at it: "..interests of a handful of hypereducated..", see if you can blow any more smoke up your own skirts...

Mr Greenwald accuses me of being elitist for saying that Americans are morons who don't care about torture memos. I think there's something elitist about that claim--that people who don't care about what Greenwald and I want to write about must therefore be morons. I figure most of them are people who've had a long day with work and kids, and just don't have the energy for parsing complicated, troubling stories.

Ah, the self-cleaning Republic. Built to last a lifetime -- just not yours.

Um, Greenwald's point, which he makes every day like clockwork, is that the 'elite' segment of the media is either completely clueless or disingenuous about what it is talking about. That this cluelessness has gone on to include being unable to identify actual news is pretty elementary and was the actual point of the John Yoo post.

See, this is how I know Megan doesn't really think before she posts: "the New York Times' gigantic power as a media outlet doesn't come from its readership, which is not that huge."

According to Wikipedia it has the 3rd largest readership in the country with over 1 million daily readers. And that isn't "that huge"? I want you to spend the next 30 minutes reading the crappy drivel that you just wrote and think about it. Seriously, this is annoying.

It's also possible that we may just disagree.

Glenn's entitled to his opinion and his vote and to decide how he wants to use his time. He's not entitled to mine.

And television news is very, very good at certain kinds of coverage--war footage is more compelling than war correspondence.

But is it more informative?

Nice, the "They're just Rats in a Maze" excuse for the current state of the edu-info-tainment approach to the 'News' delivery business.

Care to address the claim on the substance, Mark? Because the longer quote was:

"I figure most of them are people who've had a long day with work and kids, and just don't have the energy for parsing complicated, troubling stories. Some people derive energy from reading political news that makes them angry, but most people don't. They just want to relax and have a few hours of enjoyment before they get up and do the whole thing again tomorrow."

Speaking as someone who actually knows a lot of young families (keeping in mind the US birthrate recently reached the 2.1 replacement rate, and 2+ young children require a LOT of time and energy to maintain) and also knows a number of people who don't drive their primary sense of purpose from the latest political outrage, I find nothing unusual or offensive about that statement. People like you are the exception, not the rule.

Megan, instead of continuing to defend yourself, this could be a good moment for you to simply admit that you're fundamentally wrong about this. A moment of genuine soul-searching could lead you to see that you, yourself, have been unwittingly infected with the same bullshit approach that has infected so much of the media in our time. Instead of making excuses and blaming television, you could accept responsiblity, take responsibility, and not only no longer defend the sheer corrupt crappiness of so much of our media, but no longer be an example of the same. It's not like being a blogger obligates you to be a part of that whole mess. That's one of the great things about blogging - it frees you up to criticize these corruptions. The choice is yours.

"But there are lots of stories that television is really, really, really bad at. Stories like John Yoo, or the subprime crisis."

Ever watch Frontline or 60 Minutes? Think before you post!

freddiemac wrote: See, this is how I know Megan doesn't really think before she posts: "the New York Times' gigantic power as a media outlet doesn't come from its readership, which is not that huge." According to Wikipedia it has the 3rd largest readership in the country with over 1 million daily readers. And that isn't "that huge"? I want you to spend the next 30 minutes reading the crappy drivel that you just wrote and think about it. Seriously, this is annoying.

No, that was. Think about the numbers for a second: 1 million daily readers in a country of 300 million, even if we assume (probably correctly) that a large portion of those readers are in positions of political and economic influence, is -- as stated -- not that huge. On the other hand, if a substantial portion of those readers are in other media outlets that reach half or more of the country, then the premise was correct: the NYT's influence comes not from its immediate readership, but its ability to set the agenda of numerous other news outlets.

After three posts on the subject is it asking too much for a single hard fact? Apparently.

Single worst sentence:

We have to write about Obama's bowling score, because the fact that television covers it makes it important.

Ha. That's certainly how I judge importance - what's on the TV.

No, you don't "have to." The TV isn't sending mind-control waves directly into your brain that force you to abandon independent thought.

The other sad truth is that readers--even readers of the New York Times--like those stories.

Prove it. This is what we technical folks call an "unsupported assertion."

And because trivial details of their lives matter tremendously in the elections, those trivial details are big stories. Not because journalists think that they're metaphysically important, but because they drive political outcomes.

Maybe they drive outcomes because you obsess over them and inflate their importance?

Once again this is obviously a circular argument. TV covers stupid stuff, therefore we have to cover that same stupid stuff (because independent thought is scary!), the stupid stuff becomes important to the public (because you've said "yaargh this is super important really!"), therefore we are right to cover stupid stuff.

You are ignoring the role of the media as trendsetter, gatekeeper and arbiter of importance. When you cover Edward's hair you are sending the message that it matters.

Here is a novel thought: just because you see it on TV doesn't mean it's important.

Of course when you say "television covers it" you don't mean PBS covers it, or Olbermann covers it, you mean a handful of usual suspects covers it and the group-think kicks in.

So your essential point is that all the "independent" editors and producers throughout the country are working from the exact same script produced by a handful of people.

Which certainly fits with my experience that journalists are some of the most servile people around. An MSM journalist with an independent streak or simple pride is a rare thing indeed.

We have to write about Obama's bowling score, because the fact that television covers it makes it important.

Expect this to get thrown back in your face a lot, and for good reason.

aMouseforallSeasons,

So you're saying that being the 3rd most read paper in the country isn't huge? Apples to oranges. But if we must go there...

How many TV viewers do popular TV news programs get? The Early Show gets about 3 million. Not so much larger a percentage of the 300 million US residents than the NY Times. So I suggest it is you, mousy, who needs to spend more time reading and less time posting stupid things.

Of all the nonsense in the posts and in comments, I like the Republicans who say, "If you had 100 million dollars, you wouldn't start a newspaper and print the Yoo story..." and similar versions, without bothering to note Scaife's money-losing rags, the money-losing National Review, the money-losing Moonie Times, etc. Really.

This is good too:
I figure most of them are people who've had a long day with work and kids, and just don't have the energy for parsing complicated, troubling stories.

Yep, just talking out of an orifice again. "I figure..." Yet again the "It's just too difficult to understand" dodge. Now who's elitist? But this applies the the journalists and "journalists" as well. Take the Plame story. Instapundit, champion of Republican pseudo-libertarians everywhere, declared it too complicated to understand. I think Teh Kids like to call this "The Joe Klein Defense."

There are an infinite number of "valuable" stories and a finite amount of TV newstime or printspace in which to express them.

This really isn't about Obama's bowling versus John Yoo's memo, it's about Glenn deciding that want *he* thinks is important should be what gets precedence, and then getting angry and spinning stories about why this isn't the case. It doesn't matter what story he chooses to juxtapose his preference against. The fact that the one he chose is immemorable and silly is ultimately immaterial. What matters is that by saying his story should be the most important he automatically denies space to every other story, important or not. That's the issue, not Obama's bowling.

Glenn is just angry that the news doesn't always follow the stories that *he* deems important and appopriate. That's all this is, rhetoric aside.

It's elitist and egotistic. As an example, I personally think that Ezra Levant's story in Canada against their HRCs should be something that everyone should hear about. But I don't have anywhere near the audacity to argue as if my story preferences deserve attention that others don't voluntarily give them. Nor am I upset at journalists and the American people for not listening to me. It's a difference of opinion, it's not a failure of judgement or any of the multiple things Glenn contends it is.

How is this anything other than a complaint that the world doesn't revolve around Glenn's feelings and political opinions? There just isn't anyway to interpret his basic complaint as anything other than childish. Getting angry at people for not sharing your concerns and priorities is merely cathartic. It certainly isn't persuasive.

Sometimes I wonder if people are reading the same thing I'm reading. Right now is one of those times. It's pretty obvious that Megan is making a descriptive rather than a normative argument; it's extraordinarily silly for you to then lash at her as if she just advocated for covering things up to allow as much torture as possible.
Margalis- you seem to be substituting Megan for every single member of the media out there. Please show some examples of where she has shown an obsession with trivial details instead of with substantive issues. If you read her blog regularly, you would see that probably 90% of what she writes is about her perspective on various economic issues, broken up by occasional moments of levity.

You may bemoan the lack of statistics and numbers to back up Megan's theory, but you seem to ignore that what she is positing is just a theory. The fact is that statistics are utterly meaningless in this debate, which fundamentally goes to the motives of members of the media. All they can tell us is what the media covers and what people read; they cannot tell us why the media covers what it does.

OOooh, based on these comments, you hit a nerve! How dare you suggest that people have better things to do than listen to their Progressive betters! How dare you say that system isn't broken just because it doesn't cater to the tastes of the Progressive Elite. HOW DARE YOU suggest that the NYT doesn't have a huge readership (1/3rd of 1% of the american populace). And lastly, HOW DARE YOU suggest that the media covers Obama's bowling score because it grabs the attention of normal people, thus making it important.

Oh, if only everyone was superintelligent and blessed with perfect virtue! Then we could be living in a Progressive Paradise!

Woe! Woe! Woe! is us that we live in an imperfect world full of people who are of only average intelligence and somewhat corruptible (many of whom, BTW, work for the government).

Why, Why, Why must we be cursed with such a backwater planet of greed and mediocrity. Oi! Oi! Oi! Where are my sackcloth and ashes???

So you're saying that being the 3rd most read paper in the country isn't huge? Apples to oranges. But if we must go there...How many TV viewers do popular TV news programs get? The Early Show gets about 3 million. Not so much larger a percentage of the 300 million US residents than the NY Times. So I suggest it is you, mousy, who needs to spend more time reading and less time posting stupid things.

The difference between me and you, evidently, is that I had my coffee this morning. Some sort of Eastern European regional blend, very smooth with mild acidity. I may have to make another pot for the afternoon.

At any rate, the problem is that you're looking relative numbers. Third largest newspaper in the country is a meaningless relative statistic if it only reaches 1/300 of said country. You then point to a television show that has 3 million viewers and claim "see, that's not very large, either."

But where did that show get its news agenda for the day? If a portion of it was from the NYT, then the NYT has already influenced four times its readership base NOT via immediate readership, but rather through fan-out effect.

This point about the NYT being influential via trendsetting is not extremely controversial in media criticisms, by the way. Have you actually read any of the media criticisms out there? Even Gore Vidal knows how to get a point across without directly insulting the audience, something you might want to look into.

Prove it. This is what we technical folks call an "unsupported assertion."

And what exactly is the assertion that if John Yoo were on the news all the time that the American people would agree with Glenn that it's an important issue?

I know about it. I don't think it is. Especially not when I know that Glenn probably wouldn't be happy with the coverage anyway, because it wouldn't emphasis what he wanted emphasized or focus on the parts he wanted the most attention for.

If the American people really cared why wouldn't newspapers and news shows desparate for viewers respond? Isn't it possible that the American people don't really care that John Yoo wrote some memos about "torture?" How is that not the more reasonable assumption?

What you are arguing is that the newsmedia should force this down everyone's throat by non-stop coverage until they do care. Ignoring questions of effectiveness, how is that not demanding control of the media?

Seething on the internet that there is a world out there driven by desires and concerns not your own is just foolish and silly. You have a voice. You don't have the right to someone else's.

Couple more points:

What I've found in talking to journalists is that when they do admit there is a problem it doesn't even occur to them that they could or should be part of the solution. They are just cogs in a machine, working for the man, getting a paycheck, blah blah blah, and it's up to some unspecified other person to correct things. It doesn't matter if the person is a first-year beat reporter or an editor at WaPo it's always the same story: someone else's problem.

I figure most of them are people who've had a long day with work and kids, and just don't have the energy for parsing complicated, troubling stories.

Most political stories only require complicated parsing because reporters stick to the bland and uninformative he-said/he-said presentation. I'm a political news junkie but half the time I read a piece I come away thinking "what the hell was this even about?"

Political reporters have hit upon and now stick to a style seemingly geared towards turning off readers. The same is true on TV, where every subject under discussion must have two talking heads present, one for each side, even when one has nothing relevant to say. That's "balance."

It's a little disingenuous to produce boring, pointless material then complain that consumers don't like it. Two pundits warring or a piece that liberally quotes "both sides" for no reason is neither news nor interesting.

On my blog I took a story written by Michael Scherer at TIME that was written in this bland style with all the interesting bits obscured by trivia and rewrote the lede just by changing the order of sentences. (Linked in my name) It suddenly went from deadly boring to a must-read. (If I do say so myself)

It's not hard, it just requires ditching the rigid orthodoxy that most journalists cling to. It would be easy to produce an accurate and interesting piece on Yoo that didn't require any complicated parsing, but to do it you have to drop the mad-lib template of "well Yoo's supporter said this...now here's a quote from a critic of Yoo...no I'm not going to tell you which of these people is correct."

Margalis,

"Single worst sentence:
'We have to write about Obama's bowling score, because the fact that television covers it makes it important.'
Ha. That's certainly how I judge importance - what's on the TV."

I see. You are the world. Everyone else is an extra in your movie of life. Etc.

You and I may discount the idiocy on TV, must most folks in my universe do not. I think Megan has a good point here. That doesn't make it any less sad. It just means that we need to wear blinders sometimes. And earplugs.

It's not hard, it just requires ditching the rigid orthodoxy that most journalists cling to. It would be easy to produce an accurate and interesting piece on Yoo that didn't require any complicated parsing, but to do it you have to drop the mad-lib template of "well Yoo's supporter said this...now here's a quote from a critic of Yoo...no I'm not going to tell you which of these people is correct."

So now you are complaining that the news, which is supposed to try and stay objective, doesn't put your perspective out there enough?

Wow.

If you are expecting people to be convinced by your argument that the news should promote your political opinions, it's no wonder that you think the only way people are going to listen to you is if you force them...

glig glag glug glub

I'm a teacher, and I have always thought that journalism was a kind of teaching in a much bigger classroom. The root of "educate"--e-duco, lead out of (ignorance)--suggests a similar function for teacher and journalist.

When I first started teaching many years ago, I was shocked and saddened that *all* my students didn't automatically want to learn what I was teaching. But it was my job to teach them, so I had to adapt my methods to find ways to reach every student in the room--an impossible ideal, of course, but an honest, responsible teacher has to try.

In the course of this debate with Glenn, someone posted a link to the Pew page on journalistic ethics. This quotation exactly states the identity of journalist and teacher:

"it must balance what readers know they want with what they cannot anticipate but need. In short, it must strive to make the significant interesting and relevant."

That comes after the overarching reason for journalism's protections:

"While news organizations answer to many constituencies, including advertisers and shareholders, the journalists in those organizations must maintain allegiance to citizens and the larger public interest above any other if they are to provide the news without fear or favor."

The problem I see with what you have written in this debate is that you have the hierarchy of allegiances *upside down*: sorry to sound snarky, but your statement of principles could be deduced to be this:

"While news organizations answer to many constituencies, including citizens and the larger public interest, the journalists in those organizations must maintain allegiance to advertisers and shareholders above any other if they are to provide the news under currently prevailing market conditions."

OK, you seem to recognize that this problem and your particular situation arises because of the commercialization of the news, but your *resignation* and lack of ingenuity in *meeting* that challenge represent a collapse of journalistic values in the face of a challenge.It suggests an inability to use your talents (in economic analysis) to work at a really hard, interesting problem in economics--of the news business. That inability seems like a personal blindness--you admit to ideological leanings, libertarianism, someone mentioned (shudder!) objectivism.

But if that's the case, that your ideology determines what you write about and, more importantly, how you comment on crucial moral subjects of journalistic importance outside your specific beat, then you are *not* a journalist: you are a feature writer who sells your services to your employer in order to increase sales.

OK, then, but two questions: 1) does the Atlantic consider you to be a journalist? If they don't, I think they should say that; putting you on a par in their site design with James Fallows, one of the truly great journalists alive, may be implying a claim about your status that turns out to be highly misleading.

2) Why, given your own explanation of your beliefs about what must drive coverage in the long run (with an expression of regret about that included--you're only following markets), do you as a feature writer comment about significant crises in our society that are outside your beat? And why do you criticize journalists, who are trying to live up to the journalistic code of ethics, for doing a different job than yours and doing it properly and well?

I think the moral of the story here is that technocratic entrepreneurs should not meddle in questions of journalistic ethics and social morality; they should not pose as journalists; and they should not become sarcastic when people who are actual journalists with the highest ethical standards criticize them for muddying those boundaries in profoundly unhelpful ways.

You can do what you signed on for, but don't make the work of those who are trying to stop criminal behavior by elected officials in a democracy more difficult than it already is.

Megan, I think you may have become my favorite blogger. Challenge anyone's theory on why the mainstream media sucks and all of a sudden it's "Who's dirty work are you doing?" Gods.

Keep up the good work.

Okay, that was funny.

Most sentient Americans of a certain age can name the "minor functionanaries" from Watergate (G. Gordon Liddy, H. R. Haldeman, John Ehrlichman, John Dean, etc) because the media of the 1970s, while far from perfect, covered them. Likewise, the "minor functionaries" from the Third Reich are commonly known names (Hess, Himmler, Speer, Goring, etc) because they were amply in the news of the time. OK, so 2008 isn't 1975 or 1944. But it seems to me that, more than anything, what's changed is the media's conception of its job, more than the American people's interests or the fragmentation of the media. (You're right: old- fashioned TV reporting wasn't all that great, yet we learned about Watergate.) The Yoo story is quite dramatic and interesting. It hasn't been broadly told for reasons that are ideological (as Greenwald argues) rather than practical or structural. In a nutshell, most media players today no longer view themselves as muckrakers and watchdogs on the side of democracy and fairness.

Glorious wrte: "Glenn is just angry that the news doesn't always follow the stories that *he* deems important and appopriate."

No crap. However, I defy any one to make an argument as to WHY having the official position of the executive branch of the United States be one where habeus corpus is suspended and torture is legalized is NOT IMPORTANT. Anyone?

First of all, can we all try to just make points and leave it at that. There's no need to go to the second step of CALLING DOWN DAMNATION on our enemies.

Kevin E, everything you say is undermined by your cute, quaint belief in the possibility of objectivity. "It must balance what readers know with what they cannot anticipate but need." This is a relic of the old oligarchic media system where a few Conkrites/Murrows/whoever had incredibly undiluted leverage as members of the press, and thus, as individuals, were able to see themselves as a part of the checks/balances system, just like congress and the supreme court. This worldview happens to dovetail very, very nicely with progressive crusading, hence its presence now as anachronism.

Start diluting that responsibility--as has been done, and, it can be argued, is for the best--and what you've got is a market. Not like $$$ market even, but an economic system. Money is the secondary property, it just follows from what ideas people want to consume. Anyway, the upshot is that the illusion--which is what it always was--that YOU can "anticipate" what others "need" where they can't falls apart.

What is "true" and "important" is suddenly back up in the air again--and people will disagree about what's true and disagree about what's important and at the end of the day, Obama's bowling score may just outcompete John Yoo.

And since no one has elected, appointed, or otherwise designated you or Glenn Greenwald the supreme master of the universe that's what we're stuck with.

Not as off-topic as it would seem. Required reading for many folks around here.

No, that was. Think about the numbers for a second: 1 million daily readers in a country of 300 million, even if we assume (probably correctly) that a large portion of those readers are in positions of political and economic influence, is -- as stated -- not that huge. On the other hand, if a substantial portion of those readers are in other media outlets that reach half or more of the country, then the premise was correct: the NYT's influence comes not from its immediate readership, but its ability to set the agenda of numerous other news outlets.

Posted by aMouseforallSeasons

This explains the influence of someone like Chris "Tweety" Matthews. If you ever saw his ratings, he rarely did any better than Tucker Carlson. The problem is, for what ever reason, everyone in DC seems to watch him. I have no clue why. He doesn't bring a thing to the table other than an Aqua Velva man crush on Fred Thompson, Rudy and now John McCain.

The other problem with Greenwald's claim is that there's no news in the Yoo story. That there was mistreatment of prisoners has been known for a long time; that there were memos which may have enabled/authorized/justified these has been known for a long time. The only new element to the story is the content of the memos, and that's the arcana of legal analysis.

Megan,
While I greatly appreciate the tone of this post, I would offer two criticisms. One, the stress of modern schedules does not obviate people’s responsibility to engage democratic processes, particularly when fundamental questions about the government’s adherence to the Constitution are at issue. Two, the stress of modern schedules does inhibit people’s capacity to participate in civil society and governance even when they wish to do so, which argues for public policies, such as making child care more available and election day a holiday, that would facilitate civic engagement.

Mass media is in the business of having paying readers and viewers; as such, mass media gives its segment of the reader-/viwership what that market wants. Complaining about this is idiocy of a fairly high order. If you want to know the latest on John Yoo, there are plenty of niche outlets for such news analysis.

Media that doesn't gives its customers what they want go out of business or find new customers. This is the way it has always been, and will be.

I defy any one to make an argument as to WHY having the official position of the executive branch of the United States be one where habeus corpus is suspended and torture is legalized is NOT IMPORTANT. Anyone?

Because the American people have heard about it for years now and there just hasn't been that much interest?

And, once you strip away all of the shameless sensationalism routinely employed to advance Glenn's cause, the whole thing is a whole let less damning. John Yoo wrote a legal memo. There really isn't much to be said about it.

This isn't about the American people being informed, it's about advancing a particular narrative. That's why Glenn blathers on about Abu Gharaib, which has absolutely nothing to do with John Yoo.

And that's why I reject this nonsense. The media can't even be satisfactorily proxy here. Even if they did play it on the news all the time Glenn still wouldn't be happy because they're not going to report it exactly how he wants it reported.

We already have people here complaining that the media gives both sides representation. Please. This is transparently a complaint that the Media isn't Glenn's personal bully pulpit.

aMouseforallSeasons,

I can tell what was in your European blend this morning, and I'm sure it is illegal where I live.

"At any rate, the problem is that you're looking relative numbers."

Ohh, do tell! 3rd largest newspaper is relative, because being 1,000,000/300,000,000 is so much different than being 3,000,000/300,000,000!

"Third largest newspaper in the country is a meaningless relative statistic if it only reaches 1/300 of said country."

Because 3/300 is so much bigger than 1/300! Obviously, having that 1/300 influence the 3/300 must not in any way be related to size!

"You then point to a television show that has 3 million viewers and claim "see, that's not very large, either."

And it isn't.

"But where did that show get its news agenda for the day?"

Ok, I'll bite. Where did it?

"If a portion of it was from the NYT, then the NYT has already influenced four times its readership base NOT via immediate readership, but rather through fan-out effect."

Seems someone's math skills were affected by the coffee. It would only be unduly influential if its agenda setting powers were larger in proportion to its size. Tell me, what percentage of Early Show stories come from the NYTimes agenda? And what percentage come from, say, the Wall Street Journal? Or Bill O'Reilly? And what percentage of the American Populace are their audiences? And how disproportionate are they? Once again, I suggest you stop and read what you wrote, and think about it, before you continue to write stupid things. You're not even good at snarking.

Yancey,

Any evidence that the reason that reporters didn't report on John Yoo was because they thought it would hurt their business? Any? At All?

Rickm: OH MY GOD. It has always been Megan's point and those of us that agree with her that IT IS more important, but that for the reasons that have been stated and restated "important" to us, the good and great people of the anti-Bush torture faction, may not correlate directly to "air time" or "amount of coverage relative to seemingly less important stories" and, crucially, that it's pompous and disingenuous to blame this on some kind of systematic moral failing of your peers--many of whom agree with you--for working within the constraints of reality.

Let's recap. Agitating for anti-torture positions and the salience of anti-torture issues wherever possible, as strongly as possible: Good. Framing all that as a struggle against a lazy and corrupt power structure of everyone who's not you: Stupid and egotistically masturbatory.

As for the whole "well you should MAKE it important, by TRYING HARDER or BEING MORE TALENTED" line... This is just jackassery. Other than the obvious "why don't you do it then, nyah", you can yearn for the messiah all you want, but it seems kind of idiotic and jerkish to blame other people for not making everything hard easy and redeeming all of our sins.

"Unfortunately for print journalists, what television will cover drives the major narratives of the campaigns..."

"...but the New York Times' gigantic power as a media outlet doesn't come from its readership, which is not that huge. It comes from the fact that television news directors often take stories off the Times."

So print journalists must follow TV, whose news directors take their cue from the NYT? Megan, would it kill you not to write such flaccid, meandering and poorly thought out pieces?

One, the stress of modern schedules does not obviate people’s responsibility to engage democratic processes, particularly when fundamental questions about the government’s adherence to the Constitution are at issue.

She didn't say she it did. Stop confusing descriptive statements with normative ones.

She could write a book about how the American people should be more engaged in the democratic process, read better media, brush their teeth, exercise daily, etc...

So what? It doesn't change anything!

Two, the stress of modern schedules does inhibit people’s capacity to participate in civil society and governance even when they wish to do so, which argues for public policies, such as making child care more available and election day a holiday, that would facilitate civic engagement.

And this means they'd suddenly seek out all the latest news on John Yoo and read scores of pages of legal analysis about where he went "wrong" in his memos?

Uh, what?

"Unfortunately for print journalists, what television will cover drives the major narratives of the campaigns..."

"...but the New York Times' gigantic power as a media outlet doesn't come from its readership, which is not that huge. It comes from the fact that television news directors often take stories off the Times."

So print journalists must follow TV, whose news directors take their cue from the NYT? Megan, would it kill you not to write such flaccid, meandering and poorly thought out pieces?

rickm,

Some reporters did report on it, as I stated. There is only so much reporting that can be done by any single organization, and if they chose to expend resources on one story, but not another (such as John Yoo), then they have made a business decision. Those that chose John Yoo stories did so because they thought their readers would find this of more interest than the next marginal piece of journalism that got bumped down the chain. Those that chose not to write stories about John Yoo made different decisions about their customer base.

That John Yoo wasn't plastered all over the news everywhere, or even on a majority of media outlets tells me that the overall reading/viewing base would not have been particularly interested. Media have limited ability to shape their viewers desires for stories. If they don't give viewers what they want, those viewers drift away to other outlets that do. That is why nearly all of Greenwald's readers are interested in this story- he has given them what they want in their news, but those readers have tastes that are different than most people. That this is true is pretty well demonstrated by the fact that the name John Yoo is unknown this afternoon.

"I'm a teacher, and I have always thought that journalism was a kind of teaching in a much bigger classroom. The root of "educate"--e-duco, lead out of (ignorance)--suggests a similar function for teacher and journalist."

Professionalism. You are describing the function of professionalism when professional is defined as someone the non-professional is not in position to pass judgement on what a professional does, i.e. in possession of sufficient knowledge, education or expertise with which to do so. A good professional lawyer, doctor, even cop's job is no different, depending on whether the military model or professional model of policing is is being adopted. Guess which one is most prevalent in the U.S. today? This is a tough one for McArdle and her audience because McCardle and most of her commenters are just not that bright. Yes, new studies on political bias in academia do show this; the more partisan one is the more intelligent one is. Niether McCardle or her commenters are sufficiently partisan. As someone suggested, they just aren't bright enough to figure out what side to be on. There are more liberal in academia because liberals are more willing to jump through the required hoops whereas conservatives are less inclined to do so. It is self-selection Hence many end up as windbags, pundits and "journalists". And libertarians? Well, the allure of what passes for libertarianism in America is easily explained. You don't have to learn the meaning of strange words like proletariat or foreign words like bourgeoisie.

"The nice aspect of this research program is that Woessner/Kelley-Woessner tested competing hypotheses, like conservatives get lower grades. The interesting finding is that political moderates get the worst grades. My guess is that people with lower cognitive skills probably can’t clearly distinguish between competing political theories and resort to the middle position. The researchers also test multiple specifications (e.g., self reported ideology vs. policy positions), so the finding appear robust."

http://orgtheory.wordpress.com/2008/02/21/the-mystery-of-conservative-free-academia-solved-its-self-selection/

http://chronicle.com/temp/reprint.php?id=s1153nnhjkhr407r6ng6gjg8pvc8g2s8

How is this anything other than a complaint that the world doesn't revolve around Glenn's feelings and political opinions?

Polls regularly show that the media is out of touch with what Americans actually want: less trivia and horse race coverage, more about issues. (One example: http://www.collegenews.org/x7789.xml)

It's funny how Megan and others "figure" what Americans want but can't be bothered to cite actual data. They just magically know...somehow.

It takes a certain shamelessness to pretend you speak for most Americans when all you really speak for is yourself.

So now you are complaining that the news, which is supposed to try and stay objective, doesn't put your perspective out there enough?

Funny, I didn't actually say that at all. Reporting is supposed to be about verification. The problem with quoting "both sides" of an argument in standard he-said/he-said fashion is that what the talking heads say is rarely verified or vetted.

Furthermore, if you have 10 people saying one thing and 1 person saying another those people are typically quoted in a 1:1 ratio, which is hardly "objective" in any rational sense.

"Staying objective" doesn't come from following a writing formula, it comes from following a proper methodology based on verification. Quoting the same number of talking heads from each side then passing on what they say without comment is in no way reflective of objective reality.

I didn't say I want to read one-sided pieces slamming Yoo. That's your invention. I don't care if my particular perspective is the crux of the story or not, but I do want stories to be based in verification and a solid methodology.

I'm not inventing some crazy theory here. This stuff is pretty much verbatim from The Elements of Journalism. He-said/he-said reporting is not "objective", informative or interesting.

Any evidence that the reason that reporters didn't report on John Yoo was because they thought it would hurt their business? Any? At All?
Yes. A ton. Ever looked at the circulation of media outlets that cover the Very Important Stories in depth, vs. the circulation of the major media outlets?

You might as well ask whether there's any evidence that rap music is more popular than opera. I guess it could be part of the Evil Media Conspiracy to protect and promote Big Rap at the expense of the higher arts, but that seems, well, delusional.

Margalis wrote:
"It takes a certain shamelessness to pretend you speak for most Americans when all you really speak for is yourself."

Uhh...isn't that precisely what you've been doing this whole time in telling us that Americans want more coverage of the substantive issues and less of the trivial issues?

Meanwhile, Megan is hardly pretending to speak for the American people. Instead, she is merely theorizing about why trivial news is more prevalent than substantive news.

Polls regularly show that the media is out of touch with what Americans actually want: less trivia and horse race coverage, more about issues. (One example: http://www.collegenews.org/x7789.xml)
No, Margalis. Polls don't "show" anything of the kind. What that poll shows is that people say they want less trivia and horse race coverage, more about issues. The only polls that actually count are ratings, and those show that people want less about issues.

I'm not any more thrilled with that than Glenn is, but it makes no more sense than complaining that people prefer reality shows to quality drama. (That is, complain if it makes you happy, but it won't change anything.)

OH MY GOD. It has always been Megan's point and those of us that agree with her that IT IS more important...

This appears true as long as you don't go back and actually read her previous posts where she says that torture is no more important than the names of low level functionaries or how to calculate stuff about bonds.

Her point from the start has been that torture is trivia.

As for the whole "well you should MAKE it important, by TRYING HARDER or BEING MORE TALENTED" line... This is just jackassery.

No, it's just journalism.

We have to write about Obama's bowling score, because the fact that television covers it makes it important. If this is one of the things that will decide the election, it's news, even if it's completely stupid. Most non-journalists don't realize this, but the New York Times' gigantic power as a media outlet doesn't come from its readership, which is not that huge. It comes from the fact that television news directors often take stories off the Times.

Donut, much? The Times just HAS to write about Obama's bowling score because they want MSNBC to pick it up, and MSNBC picks it up from the Times, because it must be news if its in the Times, and then because MSNBC has a story about Obama's bowling score, the Times has to write about it because now it's news, even if it's completely stupid. Whew. Glad we cleared that up. Tell Glenn to call off the dogs -- he obviously has no clue what he's talking about!

You are ignoring the role of the media as trendsetter, gatekeeper and arbiter of importance.

If that was ever true, it's not anymore. The Media isn't held in very high regard.

According to a 2007 Gallup poll, more people had confidence in the President than in Newspapers or Television news.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/1597/Confidence-Institutions.aspx

In fact, people trust citizen-journalists as much as big journalism.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/1663/Media-Use-Evaluation.aspx

Uhh...isn't that precisely what you've been doing this whole time in telling us that Americans want more coverage of the substantive issues and less of the trivial issues? Meanwhile, Megan is hardly pretending to speak for the American people.

Uh...I have polling data to back me up. (Actual data for arguments, how novel!) And uh..."I figure most of them are people who've..." is pretending to speak for most Americans.

Instead, she is merely theorizing about why trivial news is more prevalent than substantive news.

Since facts and arguments don't matter at all since we are merely theorizing, here is my theory:

News producers produce trivia because they like trivia.

Where I come from most arguments are stronger when they are supporter by facts and logic. Different strokes for different folks I suppose. Megan is "just theorizing" so asking her to support her theory in any way is mean and innapropriate.

Go to bloggingheads. Gaze upon Gleen(s).
DO NOT think of reptiles.
I win.

Polls regularly show that the media is out of touch with what Americans actually want: less trivia and horse race coverage, more about issues.

This doesn't have anything to do with what I said. I never said the media perfectly matched what the American public wanted. I simply said the Glenn was complaining that the media didn't talk about what *he* wanted.

The point is that Glenn is demanding that a certain story get attention. What you said literally has nothing to do with that. Saying that media isn't in touch with what Americans want does not validate, AT ALL, the notion that Glenn is.

I mean, seriously.

Funny, I didn't actually say that at all. Reporting is supposed to be about verification

Which is great for hard facts. It's not for things like legal opinions for which there is no such thing as "fact." If Yoo miscited something in those memos, you would have a point. But that's not really the issue here. What's at issue is intepretation. You cannot factually verify those.

It's not for the news to decide which of those conflicting opinions about the interpretation of law is right. The best you can do is have people present both sides and let the viewers decide.

Man, that's twice you've completely missed the point here Margalis.

No, Margalis. Polls don't "show" anything of the kind. What that poll shows is that people say they want less trivia and horse race coverage, more about issues. The only polls that actually count are ratings, and those show that people want less about issues.

Both ratings and newspaper circulation are down in general while Olbermann is the #1 show in MSNBC. Sorry I missed the ratings data that proved your point...oh wait, you didn't have any.

Why are the regulars here absolutely allergic to facts?

Uh...I have polling data to back me up.

Polling data which is a complete non sequitor when it comes to my actual point, which is that Glenn doesn't know what Americans want.

What you said is irrelevant, and saying that you're now backing up your position with "evidence" is entirely disingenuous.

Daniel, I think you have highlighted one of the main problems in this long and fruitless non-dialogue that Megan has inspired. You write

"First of all, can we all try to just make points and leave it at that. There's no need to go to the second step of CALLING DOWN DAMNATION on our enemies."

This is a persistent problem I see with Megan's defenders: so many of them are just trying to "make points," and they don't go beyond that very often, to the essential next step, to dialogue, which also involves answering logical objections and questions from interlocutors about the premises of those points.

I've posted three or four times here; I've asked questions. Each time, almost no one answers my questions, but someone quotes me out of context, sets up a straw man characterization, and finishes with something snarky. (I can think of one exception, the person who says he is concerned about torture, but also about a false equation between what we do and real torture regimes. Hooray! A very valid point! Let's continue that discussion!)

Daniel, besides revealing his preference for point scoring, takes my advocacy of journalistic responsibility as a signal to unload his particular hobbyhorse that there is no such thing as objectivity, therefore we can't have Cronkite and Murrow, and that's a good thing too.

Two responses to that before I remind him of the question I asked which none of Megan's defenders have bothered to answer:

1) Despite commmunicative slippage in human matters, we are all "objective" enough to see the pictures of Abu Ghraib prisoners and know that this represents the possibility that something has gone seriously wrong in our government. Those pictures, which may be the tip of a criminal iceberg, are the objective warrant for investigative reporting into whether our Constitution--another objective fact--has been knowingly flouted.

That is a crucial question for every American, since it could affect every activity we do, all of us, including in your beloved markets. These questions are therefore the very definition of "objectively newsworthy."

If an asteroid were headed for us, would you consider that objectively newsworthy? Throwing out the Constitution is the social equivalent for Americans.

2) The questions are crucial despite the fact that neither Glenn nor I (and I don't deserve the honor of being insulted by you in the same breath as he) am "Master of the Universe." Like most materialists, you seem to have an authority problem: "people who disagree with me are essentially trying to steal my stuff." You know, communists or something.

You can disagree with my ad hoc analysis of the chip on your shoulder, but you have to promise me to read The Authoritarian Personality first; then we can have an intelligent discussion. (Oops, there I go again, trying to steal your stuff.)

OK, I apologize for the sarcasm, but really you folks are a trial, since you don't converse. So let me try again:

I asked a question: Is Megan a journalist with broad public responsibilities under the 4th Amendment, or a feature writer? (seems to me a fair, non-judgmental question)

If she's a feature writer, which is fine, do you agree that she should stay on her beat and not meddle in questions like torture memos in a markedly insensitive way? (Her comment about Nuremberg was incredibly insensitive, actually. "The Holocaust? I'm not sure how relevant that is. From what I understand, experts say a lot of the Jews cooperated in their own destruction.")

That's all I'm asking: Is she a journalist who should be set next to James Fallows on this site?

If she's just a feature writer--essentially an expert on a technical subject who writes informative columns of the "You and Your Money" type--should she be expressing opinions such as "papers really shouldn't be expected to cover subjects like torture?"

You know, if the answers are, she's not a journalist with broad responsibilities to the overall public interest, and no, she should stay out of the Yoo question, I don't see why that's so terrible. Maybe she's privately virtuous in commendable ways--that's all some people can be. But then don't meddle in larger affairs, that's all. Don't muddy the issues, which is a form of enabling bad behavior, which is what got Glenn so mad in the first place, and justifiably so.

Both ratings and newspaper circulation are down in general while Olbermann is the #1 show in MSNBC. Sorry I missed the ratings data that proved your point...oh wait, you didn't have any.

And Bill O'Reilly has way more viewers than him. Who cares? What relevancy does any of this towards what started this with, which was my claim that Glenn is just complaining that the world doesn't listen to him?

LOOK! The idea that media responds to market incentives to report on trivial aspects of candidates, and the idea that the media fails to report on important issues because they are lazy and in cahoots with the politicans they cover are NOT incompatible. Sheeesh.

I think any good libertarian should understand what is at work here.
Most of the time it is in the personal best interest of pudits to be pro-war and wrong rather than correct on security issues. Pro-war people like the Kagan, Kristol and Podhoretz clans have never had it so good inspite of being wrong....often. The Friedmans and Ohanlons are prospering as well, and have no shortage of platforms. Smart and serious people of all poltical stripes who were correct about the Bush administration foreign policy are still by and large shut out.
The actual architects of the war and all of it failures are now landing into their comfy media gigs/think tank /tenured professorships/defence contracting positions. What could correct anti-war person get...a book deal....maybe!
People act in their own self-interst! Pundits included. The professional risk/reward choice is grossly tilted in favor of pro-war for any media type! That should be clear to any good libertarian such as Ms. McCardle!

Both ratings and newspaper circulation are down in general while Olbermann is the #1 show in MSNBC.
Which has what to do with the price of tea in China?

Not only is that utterly nonresponsive to my point, but it's an abuse of the one data point you do bring up (Olbermann being the #1 show on MSNBC), since ratings from different time slots cannot be compared.

I'm not sure why you even bring up Olbermann, since he covers just as much fluff as others, if from a more left-wing orientation, but out of 300,000,000 people in the U.S., how many watch Olbermann on a regular basis? (Wiki says 2.2 million per night. That would leave 297,800,000 people not watching him.)

Megan you should certainly learn to quit when you are behind.

Your post the other day gave new meaning to the word shrill. NTM hyperbolic.

From the start of this post you're taking pains to modulate yourself so carefully it was apparent you'd just come back from the editorial "woodshed" well versed in the riot act.

That was a nice try, but so obviously condescending and snide. Before today, I hardly knew you. Now I can't stand you.

Signing off for good now. Already wasted too much of my life on this turd.

Despite commmunicative slippage in human matters, we are all "objective" enough to see the pictures of Abu Ghraib prisoners and know that this represents the possibility that something has gone seriously wrong in our government. Those pictures, which may be the tip of a criminal iceberg, are the objective warrant for investigative reporting into whether our Constitution--another objective fact--has been knowingly flouted.

That is a crucial question for every American

That isn't a question. That's a statement.

Are you seriously asking why no one "answered" it?

And, I repeat here as I have before: Ivan Frederick and Charles Graner both went to jail, with 10 year sentences, for what they did.

Furthermore, you fundamentally misunderstand objectivity by asserting that we can know, as a matter of "objective fact" that the Constitution has been flouted. I'm sorry, but textual analysis is always subjective, and without the ultimate arbitrator (SCOTUS) giving a final decision everything is just speculation anyway.

This is why no "answers" your "questions" Kevin. They aren't questions, they are statements of yours with varying levels of validity.

Why write like all of this is an all or nothing endeavor?

The market is big enough for all kinds of depth or fluff. If you focus on in depth coverage, that will draw a smaller audience, but an audience none the less. For instance, the The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer on PBS is well known. The ratings aren't as high as the other networks, but 2.7 million people per night according to Wikipedia is still a lot of people. This was started by two men who wanted serious news coverage. This shows that if you want to bring serious news to people you can. Don't get caught in the trap of chasing dollars and you will have a lot more freedom to report on what you consider "real" news.

For purely private enterprises good stories also exist. I've read good stories in The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, The Washington Post, etc... Not every day will produce a good story, and there is certainly a lot of fluff to go with it, but good reporting is not as rare as it's made out to be.

And as far as fluff goes... why care? Some people like it, let them. As long as the more serious alternatives exist, I say live and let live.

I asked a question: Is Megan a journalist with broad public responsibilities under the 4th Amendment, or a feature writer? (seems to me a fair, non-judgmental question)
What does the 4th amendment have to do with journalism?

Now, getting past the snark, your question poses a false dichotomy. Whether Megan considers herself a journalist I'll leave for her to answer, but a journalist has no "broad public responsibilities." Journalists are not the fourth estate. They are not part of the government. They do not work for The People.

Which is great for hard facts. It's not for things like legal opinions for which there is no such thing as "fact." If Yoo miscited something in those memos, you would have a point. But that's not really the issue here. What's at issue is intepretation. You cannot factually verify those.

OK Glorious, now you're showing your ignorance. Yoo writes a legal memo enabling the Administration to torture those it perceives as its enemies, with impunity. If a journalist cared to do so, a journalist could ask his or herself, "How could that be? Isn't that against everything I thought this country stood for?" and then could find some learned constitutional scholars to discuss it with, and discover that it is a shockingly bad piece of legal theorizing held together with spitballs and string. The most glaring (but only the most glaring) of the deficiencies is the complete lack of mention of the "Youngstown" case, which is the seminal Supreme Court case on the boundaries of Presidential power during war-time. Lack of any mention of "Youngstown" would tell any 1st year law student that this is a somewhat deficient piece of work, to say the least.... So don't tell me that this is an opinion work, therefore out of bounds for a journalist to analyze. Every legal analysis must rest on FACT -- that is, facts as you and I know them, and then the fact of the existence and meaning of statutory laws and case law. This memo miscites all of the above. And when he can't find something substantive to cite for his reasoning, he cites his own previous memos. None of this is hard to understand, if a good journalist just took the time to look into it.... AND REPORT IT!!!

Why write like all of this is an all or nothing endeavor?

Because Glenn, and his followers, have decided that this is such an important issue that it's inexcusable that it isn't being forcefed into the American people by the media at all times on all channels.

Furthermore, they're angry that even if it was on the news all the time he'd probably get a defender or two.


There are plenty of outlets where interested Americans can (and do) read about John Yoo and his memos. Glenn's problem is that there are media venues where you can't.

Polling data which is a complete non sequitor when it comes to my actual point, which is that Glenn doesn't know what Americans want.

Glenn routinely cites polls. One of his pet peeves is people talking about what "most Americans" think without polling data to back it up.

Glenn's complaint was not specifically that the media needs to cover Yoo more, it's not restricted to a specific story. Did you even read what he wrote?

Glenn's point was that the media covers trivia at the expense of important stories, something most Americans agree with him on.

Which is great for hard facts. It's not for things like legal opinions for which there is no such thing as "fact." If Yoo miscited something in those memos, you would have a point. But that's not really the issue here. What's at issue is intepretation. You cannot factually verify those.

It's not for the news to decide which of those conflicting opinions about the interpretation of law is right. The best you can do is have people present both sides and let the viewers decide.

I was speaking more generally than about Yoo specifically. But let's talk about Yoo.

Why are there two sides? Not three, not ten, but two? That's arbitrary. And why is it fair to present a tiny minority interpretation and an interpretation held by the vast majority of legal scholars as equal and balanced?

If a reporter talks to ten legal experts and they all agree that the memo is crap, is it then "objective" to specifically seek out a single person who believes the memo is well-reasoned and present that is a perfect counterbalance?

These are methodological questions. Presenting two sides as equal when they are not is a distortion of objective reality.

I agree that there are questions of interpretation that don't have definitive answers, and that presenting multiple opnions on those is a fine approach. But standard he-said/he-said reporting goes far beyond that.<