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Will legalization reduce abusive polygamy cults?

30 Apr 2008 02:07 pm

Tyler Cowen muses on Will Wilkinson's argument that yes, it would.

I don't mind legalizing polygamy (though I disapprove of the practice), but would such legalization prevent an FLDS type of episode? Maybe the goals of the perpetrators are rape, abuse, and power-mad intimidation, rather than polygamy per se ("polygamy: merely a means to an end.") In that case polygamy legalization won't limit their ability to set up isolated, authoritarian, quasi-state cult compounds for their nefarious purposes.

Alternatively, if illicit polygamy is a marketing point that draws people to the compound in the first place, legalization may well help. Oddly legalization helps most when the religious belief (in polygamy) is relatively sincere and the abuse accumulates through evolutionary processes of increasingly bestial behavior; legalization helps least when the religious belief in polygamy is for cynical reasons of control and could easily be replaced by some other marketing point.

Is there entry into the market for polygamist cults? The FDLS and similar churches are no doubt attractive to a certain sort of man, but the leaders of cults generally want to suppress the supply of males competing with them. It seems to me that these cults largely increase by high birthrates, exit prevention for female members (via early impregnation), and forced exit for young males.

What little I know about cults indicates that male leaders do not advertise their sexual exploitation of female members. In the case of plural marriage, Joseph Smith didn't start practicing it until the mid-1830s, when his church already had several thousand members; other church leaders adopted the practice in the 1840s, when the group was more established and the membership numbered in the tens of thousands. The practice was not mentioned to the public until ten years after that. This would seem to indicate that the practice evolves in authoritarian, remote religious communities to which people are attracted for other reasons.

As I understand the history of the Mormon Church--though Will knows it much better than I--the Mormons were getting attacked by their neighbors and migrating to ever-more-remote locations long before said neighbors knew about the multiple wives. They didn't announce the practice publicly until after the trek. And they renounced it when they needed to be integrated into the rest of the country.

If polygamy were legal, the men in the FLDS still couldn't do what they wanted, which is to have sex with young girls. For that, you need mental control over the girls and their parents. I don't see the legality of the practice as reducing the incentives to act as the leadership did--they weren't hiding from the law, they were hiding from anyone who would tell women they had other options. Besides, from what I understand, polygamy is rarely the only weird and illegal practice that such cults engage in.

Like Tyler, I don't mind legalizing polygamy, though I'm pretty sure I'd never consider the practice personally. But I'm skeptical that this would prevent things like the FLDS's 13-year-old brides.

Update Incidentally, that post has the funniest comment I've read all week:

d.cous., if a society allows young men to study engineering, it does not care enough about 'disenfranchised young men' to warrant a ban on polygyny.

Of course, I immediately thought of this internet treasure:

engineer.jpg

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Comments (36)

Very sensible post. But here's nit that might as well be picked: polygamy is technically the practice of having more than one spouse-- the term includes polygyny (which is what the FLDS practices) and polyandry (which is having more than one husband). Polygamy, however, is almost always used these days in the non-techical sense of having more than one wife.

The Mormons weren't getting attacked by their neighbors; it was usually the other way around and they wound up being run out of town most of the time. It wasn't until they settled in Utah, which only had an American Indian population, where they could set up their own rules, that they managed to establish a stable community.

The problems with polygamy go a lot further than just the abuse of young girls. They tend to encourage very unhappy home lives. There's a lot of fighting and jealousy between the "sister wives." Not to mention, most of them are technically single mothers and, since they are forbidden from working outside the home, families draw heavily on public entitlements to the sum of millions of dollars. That's hardly the extent of the troubles. It's not simply a matter of objecting to having multiple wives on the grounds of morality.

"Alternatively, if illicit polygamy is a marketing point that draws people to the compound in the first place, legalization may well help."

It's not marketed. Nearly all of those people were born into it and are deliberately undereducated as children to keep them from questioning authority. Legalization won't help. It will make it worse by validating a lifestyle rife with abuse, unhappiness and hostility to outsiders.

When my mom was 16(she is now 94)her father decided the family should join a religious cult (The House of David in Benton Harbor, Michigan.)

From wikipedia: the commune required its members to refrain from sex ... the patriarch, Purnell, was tried in Berrien County for "public immorality," and 13 young women, placed under oath, confessed to having had sex with him...

My mom ran away when she was 20 and did not see her parents again until she was 50. To this day, she is still horribly conflicted by her sexuality and speaks of evil at the commune.

She did not choose the lifestyle - it was thrust upon her and the scars still linger.

This is not a victimless crime.

I oppose polygamy, and legalizing it, for one of the things Megan pointed out--that the dominant males kick out the young males to eliminate the competition for wives, young wives in particular.

Having the personal liberty to practice your goofy-ass religion is fine, but when a by-product of that is unleashing a whole bunch of bitter, disillusioned and rootless young male on the rest of us, I call foul.

Engineering degrees: An effective barrier contraceptive.

Engineering degrees: An effective barrier contraceptive.

Engineering degrees: An effective barrier contraceptive.

A) hilarious picture.

B) Did anyone read about the teen giving birth the other day? It reads like an SNL skit. "She's 18! I swear! Probabably! I mean...er, I'm pretty sure she's 18? Maybe she just turned 18?"

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9103069

Of course I would naturally expect conservatives to lash out against these Welfare Queens.

While I've never actually conversed with a polygamist (so this is not first hand knowledge), I'm good frieds with people who have and who have worked with them.

From what I understand the ones I've heard about are generally "decent" people who think they are living a good life doing what their religion tells them they should do.

Certainly doesn't excuse the practice. But I guess my point is, to everyone on the outside (including me) we seem to think of the men being sex crazed lunatics who lust after every woman they can get their hands on.

I don't know if its that simple, and I think a big part of that thinking is us projecting our own thoughts and misgivings onto them.

Sex is obviously a part of it, but not any more than a catholic 100+ years (or less) who wanted a big family. They just go about it different ways...

Now, on the flip side, the close knit, authoritarian, secretive community appears to be a breading ground that makes it impossible to weed out the child molesters, abusers, and rapists that exist in our society.

So if I were to fault them it would first be:
Being so close knit as to allow abuse to happen and not taking the appropirate legal actions against the abusers
Second, marrying off young girls, regardless of whether their parents or the girl herself offered consent
Third practicing polygamy

I think the bottom 2 might stem more from my cultural upbringing. Certainly there were/are good polygamists now and in the past. Certainly young girls have been married to older men in the past. I just find both a little icky by today's standards. Then again these people are living in the pioneer era by their own choice...

None of this justifies a mass child grab, particularly while leaving whatever mothers and fathers who participated or looked the other way as abuse took place.

The goal appears not to be to punish any particular offenders of abuse, but to wipe out a generation of future polygamists by forceful re-education and relocation of their children.

The FLDS is in the news because it supports polygamy. They have not found the "girl" whose complaint launched this crusade against polygamy and they never will because she never existed.

Someone pretended to be this girl in order to launch the crusade. Who? Follow the money. The divorce lawyers did it.

Today when a man gets tired of his wife, he and she hire lawyers who get lots of money to arrange: he gives her his old house, lets her raise the children, and he pays for everything. Then he is legally free to marry a new woman, buy a new house and father new children. He can repeat this process as many time as he likes - but usually stops when he has four wives.

In the FLDS when a man gets tired of his wife, he gives her his old house, lets her raise the children, and he pays for everything. Then he marries a new woman, builds a new house and fathers new children. He can repeat this process as many time as he likes - but usually stops when he has four wives.

The result is exactly the same in both cases EXCEPT THE LAWYERS GET NO MONEY. This is why judges and prosecuters get hyper. ILegalizing polygamy could end divorce as we know it. In fact no one might get divorced. And an entire class of lawyers, process servers, constables, psychiatrists, social workers, consultants, personal trainers and repo men would become unemployed.

What exactly are we "legalizing" in this case? The FLDS doesn't even want to make the additional marriages civil because they're too busy collecting benefits intended for unwed mothers from all their "plural wives."

No, what they do is "marry" outside of civil law, in their religious marriage ritual they call a "sealing ceremony." I'm no lawyer, but how is it illegal to live with multiple sexual partners? Given lawrence, what right does the State currently have to legislate the intimate sexual conduct of the polygamists?

So how exactly does the FLDS practice of plural marriage contravene the law? They don't file for civil marriage past the first wife. So, again, what exactly are we legalizing? If anything, the fact that they are doing this as part of their religious practice only makes it stronger than the average bloke who's living together with two women.

Maybe I'm missing something, but as far as I can tell, what the FLDS is doing isn't actually illegal. Nor can it be, given recent Supreme Court Decisions.

we seem to think of the men being sex crazed lunatics who lust after every woman they can get their hands on.

So...assuming this description turns out to be accurate, in what relevant respect do the men under discussion differ from any other men?

"but when a by-product of that is unleashing a whole bunch of bitter, disillusioned and rootless young male on the rest of us, I call foul. "

Are the young males 18 or younger? If they are younger than 18, it seems the parents should be thrown in jail.

If they are over 18, I dont see much difference than a kid(adult really) being told he can't live in a monastary if he wants to party all night, or telling a kid he can't live in an Amish community if he insists on having DSL in his parents house. (assuming he still lives at home)

Glorious,

The FLDS are accused of doing 2 things that are illegal:

1. they are committing rape.
2. they are committing incest.

Polygamy is just icing on the cake here. Some states don't require a wedding for a marriage to occur. In common law states, if you co-habitate with a member of the opposite sex long enough you are considered married. I'm not sure how it is in Texas, but these FLDS members might be violating tax laws as well (remember that episode of Who's the Boss? where Tony and Angela were given a common law marriage?).

Rob,

I think you're right that most men are a little obssessed with sex. My friends who work along side some polygamists (not sure if they are FLDS or another sect, but of a similar sect at least) are of the understanding that the men there try to live some kind of moral & chaste life.

Hard to swallow that someone is chaste when they have multiple wives, but if I'm a litte, ummm, charitable in my thinking I can imagine it.

I guess this issue hits home because in my past one of my ancestors was polygamist, who was doing their best to live a moral life according to the dictates of their faith and what they believe God wanted them to do. Once you go down that road it's easy to poke holes in the argument, and I'd agree. There are monsters out there and there are people who aren't monsters.

Toss the monsters in jail, let the rest of them be on their way is my thought.

Goodwin's law doesn't apply to Who's the Boss does it? Although you get bonus points for bringing up a show that until now was lost from memory.

Anyway I just read the slctrib article someone linked to. Seems strange that a girl that just had a baby will have the baby taken from her after 12 months because of prior abuse committed, most likely by someone else.

How can this be enforced for new chilren? Surely that must be highly highly illegal? Or will the state of Texas require no new kids (or we'll take them) / sterilization?

Apropos of the engineering comments, it's really all a matter of culture. Here in America male engineers (and scientists and IT professionals) are regarded as pathetic Beta loser nerds. Women generally scorn them, to the point that if you're a male engineer your chances of scoring at a nightclub are about equal to your chances of winning the Powerball jackpot. Marriage? Well, here's a mail-order bride catalog, try your luck with that.

In much of Asia, however, women actually respect engineers and similar professionals and consider them highly valuable marriage partners.

To add to my above comment:
http://www.co.travis.tx.us/dro/common_law.asp

The FLDS, at a cursory inspection, appear to have a common law marriage between the men and their harem of wives. So therefore they are married to these women, and are violating the law in 2 ways: 1, bigamy is illegal in Texas and 2, they are also in violation of income tax laws.

Follow the money indeed sol vason. This isn't about lawyers, this is about tax payers of Texas being ripped off by the FLDS. Not to mention that, as I pointed out last time, the De Facto divorce in the FLDS system doesn't seem to apply to women now does it?

If they are over 18, I dont see much difference than a kid(adult really) being told he can't live in a monastary if he wants to party all night, or telling a kid he can't live in an Amish community if he insists on having DSL in his parents house. (assuming he still lives at home)

First, they find any excuse to toss the young men out of the community. This is not free will stuff here. Whether they are adults or not, they have just had their entire community and culture, the only thing they have known for their entire lives, taken away from them by the authority of their religious elders.

Worse yet to them, they are being denied their chance to become sanctified in the afterlife, as the other males with multiple wives will be. Can you imagine how devastating this is, and how bitter it could turn a person? This is not fair to them nor is it fair to society to have them and their troubles deposited upon us to solve.

Glorious nails it: there's nothing to be legalized here, any more so than what Hugh Heffner has practiced. As long as the state hasn't certified the union as a formal civil marriage, one man can go about with the verility of Genghis Kahn if he can find willing partners.

One interesting possibility, which I haven't seen anyone with the appropriate legal background address yet, is whether such a living arrangement as what the FLDS practiced could be challenged as illegal polygamny under common law marriage statutes.

aMouseforallSeasons,

According to Travis County Texas' website, there are 3 things required to be in a common law marriage.

"Q: What makes a common law marriage?
A: Three elements must be present to form a common law marriage in Texas.
First, you must have "agreed to be married."
Second, you must have "held yourselves out" as husband and wife. You must have represented to others that you were married to each other. As an example of this, you may have introduced you partner socially as "my husband," or you may have filed a joint income tax return.
Third, you must have lived together in this state as husband and wife."

The FLDS are accused of doing 2 things that are illegal: 1. they are committing rape. 2. they are committing incest. Polygamy is just icing on the cake here.

Yeah, but the question is over whether polygamy should be legalized. Unless the common-law marriage problem can be applied, the polygamy question seems moot.

It would be interesting to see how the common-law marriage question would play out in Colorado. Under Colorado statutes, if you live together and declare "we are married", then married you are, no timespan required IIRC.

freddiemac: right, but what if you get a case like the FLDS, whose members reject the state's offer of civil marriage in order to practice a form that the state would never certify? I would think that common law marriage is normally an opt-in affair, not something the state can claim against polygamists who might otherwise meet those criterion.

But, maybe there's been a joint property or child custody case that went the other way?

Loved the Sol Vason comment.

I think it was humor, but it probably contained a lot of truth.

People HAVE described our lifestyle as unacknowledged serial polygamy.

Two things: first, although reliable statistics are difficult to obtain, it is believed that the religion with the most number of polygamous families in the U.S. is Islam. I have no idea under what conditions Muslims in the U.S. practice it, but if we're going to judge legalization based on its actual practice (instead of in theory), then it seems focusing on the FLDS is too narrow.

Second, while legalizing polygamy doesn't stop the ability of cults to form their closed societies that lead to abuse, it can mitigate some of those abuses. There are people in these communities who disagree with some of the worst abuses, but they cannot speak to police about it because to do so means the entire community will get broken up and kids sent to foster care (as we have seen). If it were legal, then people could report on the specific abuse and have that punished without punishing the entire community in the process.

The state will NEVER prosecute for bigamy or polygamy on these cases.. Why? Because the polygamists are waiting for a test case that can be taken to the supreme court where the polygamy laws would certainly be overturned. The state knows this. In the past few years, the courts have determined that what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home is none of the state’s business.

I’m in favor of polygamy. It beats the most common polygamous relationships that people have.. We call them affairs and lots of children are born in these. And they are LEGAL. Polygamy and a valid marriage provides a lot more legal protection to children and women.

Go after the pedophiles. Go after the fraud. Leave the polygamist alone. That is religious persecution.

albo, maybe you misunderstand me. They are practicing what we all find abhorrent. It's a disgrace... that being said, kicking out someone for whatever bogus reason is not illegal. They are already a disgrace so why care if they religion disgraces itself even more--so long as the abuser,rapists are tossed in jail. And I am really not informed enough to talk about who is kickedout and why. I did read some reports of younger couples so it would seem some -probably way too high- 'standard' is up held. Anyway my point is that if people are abusing kids toss them in jail and throw away the key. But I don't get why there is not more concern over due process here.

The state will NEVER prosecute for bigamy or polygamy on these cases.. Why? Because the polygamists are waiting for a test case that can be taken to the supreme court where the polygamy laws would certainly be overturned.

Nonsense. There are regular prosecutions in Utah of polygamists that (for example, in the Tom Green case) specifically avoided having more than one legally-registered wife at a time, producing plenty of potential test cases.

I think that one of the reasons that the Texas authorities are coming down so hard on the FLDS is because no policeman or sheriff wants Jonestown, Mark II on his turf!!! Quite a few LDS offshoots have turned violent over the years---google "Lambs of God" and "Ervil LeBaron" or read Under the Banner of Heaven if you want more info.

If Warren Jeffs were to tell this bunch of lunatics to commit mass suicide, so they could come back with Jeebus and Wreak Vengeance Upon The Evol Gentiles, a lot of them would drink the Kool-Aid with no hesitation. And then guess who'd be on the hot spot for not preventing it?

FLDS is not polygyny in the "normal" sense. No culture I know of evolved a view or system on the matter like theirs.

There's a great deal of variety on polygyny, but generally cultures that allow it limit it to people who can provide for multiple wives. (In a few cultures a wealthy woman could have multiple "wives", essentially governesses with a legal tie, if she could afford them) The average man did not have multiple wives in any culture I'm aware of.

In our culture polygyny is essentially the same. However as sol indicates it is done serially rather than all at once. Although I would say a man having just one wife, barring a death, is still seen as preferable. In polygynous societies a man having more than one wife is not necessarily ideal, but is more respected. Catholics, in principle, are completely against either form of polygyny.

FLDS believes that to be among the most virtuous you must have multiple wives. This changes the dynamic pretty radically. A well-respected Muslim can be monogamous, but a well-respected FLDSer can not. By making polygyny more normal and desired it warps gender relations in a variety of strange ways. You get a problem of "excess men" that you don't really see in traditional polygyny.

Traditional polygyny itself has problems, but my point is it's a completely different thing. FLDS is more like 19th/early-20th c. socio-sexual experiments (House of David, Oneida, etc) than Biblical or traditional societies.

If they are over 18, I dont see much difference than a kid(adult really) being told he can't live in a monastary if he wants to party all night, or telling a kid he can't live in an Amish community if he insists on having DSL in his parents house. (assuming he still lives at home)

The difference is that in your examples, there's an element of choice. Your hypothetical 18-year-old can choose to forgo partying or DSL and remain in the community. Not so with these FLDS young men. They're booted out for being potential competition in the wife-accumulation game, which is the direct result of their stubborn insistence on being 18-year-old men.

Seems like an important difference to me.

that's reason to abhorr them, not reason to forcefully take the kids before 18... take the kids from the molesters, take the kids from the people who defend the molesters, but this mass no questions asked kid crab ironically sounds like something out of the bible where you had a pharoah declare all isalites babies to be killed in order to whipe them out...

Society seems to be missing an easy chance to settle a divisive issue. Pass a constitutional amendment making marriage the union of two adults. Gay rights people are happy for obvious reasons, conservatives are happy because they get a permanent line in the sand drawn against polygamy. Then the whole country can be unified by coming down on the polygamists with furious vengeance.

I don't see why anyone would be happy by that. "Two adults" is so vague as to be worthless. It would theoretically mean marrying your sister or uncle or something is fine.

Besides that conservatives can, and believe me some will, cite that polygamy has some basis in tradition and history whereas two men marrying as men doesn't. Traditionally the marriage of two males required one of them to be transgendered. The idea of a man marrying a transvestite is perfectly in line with cultural history, but a husband having a husband is creating a new kind of marriage. (Same with wife on wife) So it has occurred to me, honestly, that if two men go down an aisle together one of them better be wearing a dress.

The average American man has 2 wives. No one can dispute this. He has two families and two homes and he supports both families. His first wife has the title "Ex".

American women usually have two husbands.

Anyone who has lived in a really small town ((pop. 1000) will tell you that you don't have to kick the boys out to get them to leave. They sneak out in the day and they sneak out in the night looking for the things only a big city has - like an unlimited selection of cars, girls, guns, girls, drugs, girls, sports, girls, fast foods and girls.

An when you are born in East Dumfun everywhere else is bigger and better.

You been suckered in bysome crazy girl what's got a book to sell that someone else wrote fer her.

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