« Bombs away | Main | Your random daily interlude »

Clawing at the slippery slope

20 May 2008 01:23 pm

At Volokh, Dale Carpenter offers what seem like some some very weak potential arguments for drawing the line at gay marriage, but not polygamy.


*There is nothing in principle that necessarily leads from the recognition of a new type of monogamous union (same-sex unions) to the recognition of polygamous unions. Consider the recognition of inter-racial marriage (a type of monogamous union), which reversed long-standing legal bans on miscegenation and departed from deep cultural disapproval of it dating to colonial times and before. Many warned that reversing miscegenation bans would lead to polygamy, but it did not. To the objection that dyadic inter-racial unions would lead to polygamy, the proper response then was, "Why would it?" One response to the fear that dyadic same-sex unions will lead to a polygamy slippery now is, "Why would it?" Opening marriage to one change because the change seems justified does not mean that opening marriage to every change is justified. Every proposal for reform rises or falls on its own merits. Gay marriage advocates have made extensive (and contested) arguments about why it would benefit individuals and society. It is up to polygamy advocates to do the same.

The ban on gay marriage is sustained not by solemn policy arguments, since there is no actual hard evidence on either side. It's a social taboo that rests on Burkean principles: no society we know of has ever had gay marriage, which maybe ought to tell us something. The legal ban on interracial marriage was a local phenomenon in the South, and the laws were invalidated by a court with a northern majority. Once you have established that society's ideas about what constitutes a valid marriage are not a relevant consideration, I find it hard to see how you can forbid a marriage just because one of the partners happens to also be married to someone else.


*From a Burkean/Hayekian perspective, it's relevant that polygamy has been historically tried and rejected in many human societies. We do not write on a blank slate when it comes to polygamy. Lessons have been learned from this experience and those lessons have led us away from polygamy in the West, in part because polygamy as practiced has been seen as inconsistent with liberal values, individualism, and sex equality. SSM has not been tried and rejected and is not inconsistent with, indeed arises from, Western values of liberalism, individualism, and sex equality. While the burden is on gay marriage advocates to show why we should try it, I think actual historical experience with polygamy suggests that the burden on polygamy advocates is much heavier.

This seems back assward. The fact that no society we know of has ever had gay marriage is not a Burkean argument for it. The law of averages being what it is, we are probably not the first culture to ever think of the idea. So if it isn't around, this suggests that societies which tried it either didn't survive, or abandoned the practice.

*Plural unions have historically most often taken the form of one man having many wives. It seems likely in practice it would take that form in the future. This raises many concerns different from those raised by same-sex marriage, including the greater potential for abuse of women and children. These same concerns do not arise with SSM, which should improve the lot of women and children in gay families (if SSM advocates are right about the benefits, a contestable but separate point).

Huh? How does having more than one wife make a guy more likely to beat his kids? To be sure, polygamy tends to be embedded in societies that tolerate more wife beating. But the polygamy is not the cause of the beating. To make this assertion stick, you'd have to have some evidence that abusive husbands are more likely than others to take more than one wife.

On first glance, the argument seems kind of plausible: husbands who come from cultures that tolerate spousal abuse will be more likely to engage in polygamous marriage. But think about this. The women in abusive marriages to those men are almost certainly going to be from the same culture, the children of conservative parents. They wouldn't be allowed to marry outsiders anyway; plural or single, they'll end up wed to someone who might have been raised to think its okay to slap your wife around once in a while.

*Polygamy will likely mean that marital opportunities will diminish for some men, since a few men who are very wealthy or otherwise attractive as mates will have many wives. This constricts the marriage market for less desirable men, which leaves some with no mates at all or delays their marriages as compared to their opportunities in a non-polygamous society. And unmarried men present all kinds of difficulties for societies. By contrast, SSM will mean that meaningful marital opportunities will be available for gay persons. More people will be married. Thus, SSM expands marriage opportunities while polygamy contracts them.

When opponents of gay marriage argued that marriage should be kept for men and women because it was fundamentally about reproduction, opponents said "Bosh! If that's so, how come we allow infertile people to marry?" This argument merits the same response. If it's so unfair that some men will be left without wives, how come we don't force women to marry them? Because that's an outrageous violation of human liberty, that's why. How much better is it to force women to choose between remaining single, or marrying their second (or third, or nineteenth) choice husband, so that said husband may have all the benefits of married life?

It is not possible to increase, on net, the number of marriages in the country in this way; it is capped at the number of women. Polygamous marriage of the type Carpenter describes contracts the marriage opportunities for some men, while expanding them for other men and most women. Indeed, mathematically, the number of marriage opportunities almost certainly expands under this system, since it puts married people back on the dating market.

Polygamy might decrease the number of married people. On the other hand, it might also decrease the number of single people, since a gender imbalance in the numbers of even marginally tolerable mates will result in some people being forced to remain single. Since my understanding is that men die younger and are more likely to be severely cognitively disabled, this probably relieves a burden on women.

*With polygamy, many basic rules of marriage will have to be changed. For example: if the husband dies intestate, who inherits? How are death benefits split? How are child custody disputes decided if a partner wants to divorce the group? If the husband exits, do the wives remain married to each other? On and on. We could craft answers to these questions, but it will involve a dramatic retooling of marriage as a two-person institution. None of these issues arise with SSM; aside from a few technical matters, the marriage rules remain the same. As a legal matter, SSM involves changes in the wording of statutes that specify “husbands” and “wives” and little more. The basic legal design of marriage as a dyadic institution, embedded in literally hundreds of ways in state and federal law, remains untouched.

I'm no lawyer, so I'm probably missing something important here. But the question of what to do if he dies intestate seems obvious: split the spousal share among the wives, and the children's share among the children. In the case of the polygamous marriages discussed above, the question is easy; the husband is married to each of the wives individually. In the case of more complicated marriages, presumably the marriage ends if all parties want it to, and goes on if some want to stay, with a division of marital assets along basically the same lines we use now. I think the hardest question is what to do with children who may have multiple fathers, but of course, genetic paternity can always be established, or joint child support requirements. These are issues that need to be settled, but they don't seem like things that can't be settled.

Perhaps none of this is conclusive against polygamy nor do I offer it as such. I am sure polygamy advocates have responses to these and other concerns about it. But I do think it suggests that SSM and polygamy present quite different questions of history, experience, logic, and public policy such that we are entitled to treat them as separate issues. We may, despite the concerns and the historical trend against polygamy, one day accept it. But the debate about accepting it will not, I think, turn on whether we have first accepted gay marriage.

Ultimately, I think the gay marriage debate made us ask "What is marriage for?" And the answer we came up with is "Dunno, whatever you want, I guess." Having said that, I don't really see grounds on which we can ultimately deny polygamous couples groups the same right.

Let me be clear that this is not some backdoor argument against gay marriage. I frankly don't see why legal polygamy should be any worse than gay marriage. Which is good, because I'm pretty sure we'll see it within the next few decades.

Comments (82)

"The legal ban on interracial marriage was a local phenomenon in the South"

Not quite. My parents have a good friend whose own parents got married in Mexico, as they were not able to do so in California. She was white, he was Filipino. This was in the 1920s or 30s.

Mark Steyn's terrific piece on this subject, which convinced me precisely the opposite of what I think his point was.

I can't believe you wrote this:

"The law of averages being what it is, we are probably not the first culture to ever think of the idea. So if it isn't around, this suggests that societies which tried it either didn't survive, or abandoned the practice."

Its astonishing how much you feel you can assert without evidence.

"How does having more than one wife make a guy more likely to beat his kids?"

Because polygamy is misogynistic.

Also, I can't believe you wrote this:
"The ban on gay marriage is sustained not by solemn policy arguments, since there is no actual hard evidence on either side."

Have you ever read Andrew Sullivan's blog? Are you THAT ignorant about the debate? Those against gay marriage have argued that the legalization of gay marriage threatens THE SANCTITY OF MARRIAGE. You never heard that phrase? The response to this stupid claim is to: 1)ignore it because its stupid 2) show how, when gay marriage was legalized in Scandinavia, rates of divorce and marriage rates among heterosexuals did not change. Only those against gay marriage are against hard evidence.

Ultimately, I think the gay marriage debate made us ask "What is marriage for?" And the answer we came up with is "Dunno, whatever you want, I guess."

What about encouraging sexual fidelity as a response to the AIDS crisis and legally legitimating existing relationships.

Too bad we can't adopt our friends so they could visit in the hospital, etc.

Doesn't one usually take the phrase "ass backward" and transform it to "bass ackward" to make it more family-friendly -- as opposed to "back assward"? ;)

Also, there is a difference between polygamy, which is not inherently misogynistic, and the polygyny and associated elements of the various religious sects that have pursued the practice since the time of Brigham Young. Polygamy is not inherently misogynistic even if the various practices of, say, the FLDS church certainly are.

There will always be people with weak arguments against equality. Marriage is a basic civil right that should be attainable by all Americans if they choose. For those who are uncomfortable with gay marriage check out our short produced to educate & defuse the controversy. It has a way of opening closed minds & provides some sanity on the issue: www.OUTTAKEonline.com

You posted this just to invite an avalanche of comments, right?

The ban on gay marriage is sustained not by solemn policy arguments, since there is no actual hard evidence on either side. It's a social taboo that rests on Burkean principles: no society we know of has ever had gay marriage, which maybe ought to tell us something.

Same-sex marriage has been legal in Scandinavian countries for well over a decade. The social taboo you refer to does not "rest on Burkean principles". It rests on a horror of otherness: a psychological resistance to the idea that identity-constituting institutions you are part of could be identical with those you consider yourself ineradicably different from. People oppose gay marriage for the same reason lo-fashion punk rockers used to spray-paint "Die Fake Punks!" in rage at mohawked, teased, studded hi-fashion punks. It threatened to spoil their thing. But punk is not a legal status bequeathed by the US government; if it were, it would be unlawful to deny it to so-called "fake" punks.

Until 1946, women in France could not possess bank accounts. This was wrong regardless of the fact that French society considered a bank account to be something for men, not women. The extension of the right to possees bank accounts to women did not mean there were no reasons left to argue that dogs should not be able to open bank accounts.

There is no inherent benefit to the state in polygamy as there is in marriage. You glossed over the fact that you would have large numbers of single males with no sexual outlet or means to legitimately reproduce and have children. Sounds like potential for chaos to me.

Steve

I think you misunderstood Prof. Carpenter's argument in a couple of places.

This seems back assward. The fact that no society we know of has ever had gay marriage is not a Burkean argument for it.

Carpenter isn't arguing that this is an argument for same-sex marriage. He's arguing that, while there might be a Burkean burden of proof against same-sex marriage since it's never been tried, there's a higher burden against polygamy, since it's (according to the argument) been tried and found wanting.

If it's so unfair that some men will be left without wives, how come we don't force women to marry them?

Again, Carpenter's argument isn't that it'll be unfair that some men will be left without lives. It clearly seems to be that there are negative societal consequences to having large numbers of unmarried men in a society. Hence, the sentence "And unmarried men present all kinds of difficulties for societies."

I think it'd be worth your while to read or re-read Carpenter's Burkean case for gay marriage.

I think you misunderstood Prof. Carpenter's argument in a couple of places.

This seems back assward. The fact that no society we know of has ever had gay marriage is not a Burkean argument for it.

Carpenter isn't arguing that this is an argument for same-sex marriage. He's arguing that, while there might be a Burkean burden of proof against same-sex marriage since it's never been tried, there's a higher burden against polygamy, since it's (according to the argument) been tried and found wanting.

If it's so unfair that some men will be left without wives, how come we don't force women to marry them?

Again, Carpenter's argument isn't that it'll be unfair that some men will be left without wives. It clearly seems to be that there are negative societal consequences to having large numbers of unmarried men in a society. Hence, the sentence "And unmarried men present all kinds of difficulties for societies."

I think it'd be worth your while to read or re-read Carpenter's Burkean case for gay marriage.

It is clear that polygamous arrangements would present novel questions relating to basic issues of family law: who can be married? how do they get married? what happens if someone gets sick? what happens if someone dies? what happens if someone wants to leave the marriage?

I don't necessarily disagree that there are ways of answering these questions, but I'm not sure that there is a single, obviously right answer to all of those questions. It certainly wouldn't surprise me if proponents of such arrangements disagreed about what the answers were. (To the extent I've heard proponents of polygamous arrangements make suggestions about what the answers to those questions should be, and I freely admit I haven't looked into it much, the answers have tended to be along the lines of "whatever rules the participants want to make up," which would be a vast departure from current law.)

This matters a lot to the institutional argument that Prof. Carpenter is making. If you are asking specifically about whether there is a slippery slope to legal recognition of polygamous arrangements through the courts, then it is a very significant fact that there is no self-evident solution to all those legal problems. If a court can't provide relief, it generally won't.

For: Civil rights/equality/privacy rights, Fidelity/reduction in STDs, benefits group

Against: Asserted to encourage better adoption practices, removes focus of marriage from producing kids, moves towards discrimination lawsuits if churches don't want to accept openly gay staff etc., Untested, Male same sex unions rarely monogamous, Male same sex marriages have shorter duration

Dammit, sorry for the double post. Was trying to correct a typo.

broosfoe: Same-sex marriage has been legal in Scandinavian countries for well over a decade.

In point of fact, it's not legal in any Scandinavian country. It's been legal in the Netherlands for about seven years now.

Against: Same sex marriage might not produce same reduction in male violence/aggression as traditional marriage.

The most obvious argument against the slippery slope to polygamy is that, unlike gay marriage, there aren't large number of people looking for group marriages.

If you assume that homosexuality is present in 4-8% of the population, then you have, in the U.S., 12-24 million people who are plausibly interested in the availability of gay marriage. If it were legalized across the country, you could plausibly expect to see hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of gay marriages. That in itself is an argument for gay marriage--a million more marriages doesn't seem like a bad thing, especially if they wouldn't occur otherwise; and a constituency that numbers at least 12 million with a major grievance is, on the surface at least, a real problem just in terms of numbers.

But there's no corresponding polygamy movement. There are only a few fringe actors, and those tend to be geographically and culturally isolated. Unlike same-sex marriage, there's simply no real demand for polygamy. Simple inertia protects marriage as a duopoly.

In the US, all men and all women of any sexual orientation are allowed to marry members of the opposite sex (of legal age and not too closely related). What is proposed is to allow all men and all women of any sexual orientation to marry members of the same sex.

The ability to marry or not marry in both cases is not predicated on the sex or sexual orientation of the individuals involved, so I think arguments based on an assertion of discrimination seem weak.

As I understand it, all in the US are prohibited from marrying siblings or first cousins. If a desire to marry first cousins was strongly associated with a particular ethnic group, would a claim of ethnic discrimination carry weight as an argument to allow all to marry first cousins?

Raghav, I haven't misunderstood him. The Burkean argument for same sex marriage is not better than the Burkean argument for polygamy; it is worse. Whether we should evaluate gay marriage on Burkean principles is a separate question. But I really, really, really don't see how you can assert a higher bar for polygamy than same sex marriage.

On the other question, I go back to the arguments over same sex marriage: if it turns out that same sex marriage is mildly bad for society (just assume it arguendo), are we entitled to ban it? Proponents pretty much answered this question "no". Likewise, if marriage is so great that we are entitled to use coercion to give more males access to it, why shouldn't we use coercion to make single women get married? I don't think you can really get around the notion that society's benefit requires that women not be able to marry whom they choose. Which is what gay marriage supporters objected to in their opponents' arguments.

There's also the assumption that polygamy will take the nastiest possible form: exclusively abusive polygynies. This is a pretty heroic assumption. There's no proof that polygamy would make us worse off.

What compelling interest is there for heterosexual marriage? Marriage should have the same legal basis as other contracts between one or more people. The solution is to do away with what is known today as heterosexual marriage.

Free people should be able to enter into contracts of their choosing with other free people.

I haven't read Carpenter's original piece, so forgive me if this is dealt with elsewhere, but it seems as if my favorite Librtarian is confusing the Society with the State. As a society, we have gay marriage. Ceremonies happen all the time. I am certain countless other societies have had same-sex partners ritually committed into monogamous unions.

As a nation, we grant special legal status to couples with a state-certified marriage. Extremely few nations have officially certified same-sex unions.

The more likely historical argument is that there has almost never been a society in which a)same sex couples lived in marriage-like arrangements, and B) The difference between the government provided priveleges and protections for officially sanctioned relationships and those for non-licensed relationships was great enough to motivate a movement.

Megan,

A brief note on your response to the "rules of marriage" argument, which I think is Professor Carpenter's strongest:

Carpenter doesn't go into much detail here, but there are lots and lots and lots of practical legal problems that polygamy raises and same-sex marriage doesn't. He only named two or three, but consider:

* Who would retain custody of children at the end of a plural union? The biological parents only? Would co-spouses have visitation rights?

* Could a group of many people obtain testimonial privilege in court (the right not to testify against one's spouse) simply by entering into a giant plural union?

* How would we tax members of plural unions? (If you think the "marriage penalty" is complicated now....)

* If four members of a five-member plural union died, would the remaining survivor be eligible to retain all their Social Security benefits or work pensions? Where would we draw the line?

* Could I marry ten foreign nationals and bestow citizenship via marriage on all of them?

The point is not that answers to these questions cannot be crafted, as you have suggested -- it's that a court could not blithely declare a right to polygamy without running into a thicket of practical problems. Polygamy would require changes to basically *every* aspect of marriage under the law -- a hypothetical bill legalizing polygamy would have to be hundreds of pages long.

I suspect that the endless string of practical problems poses an insuperable barrier to the legalization of polygamy by a legislature, but I'm certain it poses an insuperable barrier to legalization by a court.

" ... Free people should be able to enter into contracts of their choosing with other free people. .."

Exactly! Can somebody please explain why marriage (especially when there are no children involved) should be any of the Government's [expletive-deleted] business in the first place?

Here's a map of the states that didn't allow interracial marriage.

http://www.lovingday.org/map.htm

The date is set at 1900, but you can go back & forth and see that even some New England states at one time did not allow interracial marriage. California only legalized it in 1948 - I would have thought you'd known that, considering how important that case was in influencing the current one.

On the other question, I go back to the arguments over same sex marriage: if it turns out that same sex marriage is mildly bad for society (just assume it arguendo), are we entitled to ban it? Proponents pretty much answered this question "no".

I don't know any proponents who've actually answered that question. If that were so, why would they insist that it would not, in fact, have bad effects on society?

Likewise, if marriage is so great that we are entitled to use coercion to give more males access to it, why shouldn't we use coercion to make single women get married?

But where did anyone argue that we're entitled to use coercion? When the state recognizes a new type of contractual relationship, we usually don't say that's coercion. But most of us are prepared to admit that there should be some sort of side-constraint against forcing women to get married against their will, even if the social consequences would be positive (and I'm not sure many people would agree that they would be).

This is how I understood Prof. Carpenter's argument: recognizing polygamous marriages will result in a certain number of men who would otherwise have gotten married not doing so. That's a bad thing not because it's unfair or it coerces anyone (in ways we're not prepared to countenance), but because unmarried men are prone to social problems, like crime.

I have no particular problem with polygamy if everyone in the marriage is married to everyone else. If a married couple (gay or straight) wants to jointly marry a third person and add him or her to the family, with all the adults involved equally married to all the other adults, that doesn't bother me. There would have to be a way to pro-rate death benefits and insurance coverage, because I don't think someone with two spouses should get more from government or an employer that people with one spouse. (For that matter, I don't think single people should get less.) But that seems like a straightforward problem, especially because the two surviving spouses could take care of each other.

I doubt that too many people would take advantage of this model. It's hard enough to find two people who get along well enough to get married, much less three. Or more. But for those who can, why not let them?

In constrast, I don't think we should permit polygamy if it takes the form of one person marrying a whole lot of other people, without those other people marrying each other or even necessarily consenting to the addition of the extra spouses. That seems to be a recipe for oppression no matter where it exists. In places where a man (it's usually a man) can have multiple wives, he gets all the resources of each wife while each of the wives gets only a fraction of the husband's. This is unfair -- polygamy only makes sense if all share equally in the common resource pool.

The reason that gay marriage is being legitimized, while polygamy has not, is because the assumption used to be that gay people were weird and dysfunctional, and we were worried about weird and dysfunctional people living next to us and raising weird and dysfunctional families next to ours. But gay people have made a pretty strong argument that this isn't the case. Polygamists haven't. They're still considered weird and dysfunctional, and as long as they remain so, society will continue to disallow their way of life.

Another reason polygamy continues to be illegal is that there are few people who have anything to gain from it - available women, and women who expect to be available in the future. I can't imagine most married men wanting another wife - it's too expensive. More girlfriends, perhaps, but divorce would get expensive if one or more of your wives left. Similarly, currently married women wouldn't want to give up so much of their husband's income and attention. Young men don't like the idea of the well of women drying up.

Megan: You yourself posted that polygamy raises the bargaining power of women, and that this usually results in attempts to reduce their bargaining power. It seems logical that domestic abuse would be one of those ways.

What compelling interest is there for heterosexual marriage? Marriage should have the same legal basis as other contracts between one or more people. The solution is to do away with what is known today as heterosexual marriage.

Free people should be able to enter into contracts of their choosing with other free people.

Certainly my view. Not Megan's, although she's mainly worried about 'grandfathering' there.

As a happily married person and a child of a successful marriage, I certainly respect the institution of marriage, as I respect many *religious* traditions. It has developed and endured for a reason. I see no reason why marriage should not be equally beneficial to gay couples. The state, however, does not need to subsidize any marriage, and subsidies inherently discriminate.

Heck, there are a few *commandments* that the state is silent on.

Problems with polygamy, off the top of my head (Adam Sofen anticipated a couple):

*Let’s say you’re a woman married to a man who, once polygamy is declared legal, elopes with another woman. This enrages you and you decide to divorce him. Before his second marriage you were entitled to half his estate. How has this changed?

*Let’s say you’re a man without a living will who is married to an even number of women, half of whom want to keep you on life support, half of whom want to pull the plug. Who breaks the tie? Conceivably you could appoint a specific wife to handle these functions, but that would subordinate the rest in a way marriage is supposed to avoid.

*Let’s say you kill with your car a man with 20 wives. After the wrongful death class action is approved, how is loss of consortium quantified? Is it loss of consortium x 20, or does each wife get 1/20th of the value of the husband’s consortium?

*Since polygamy will presumably come after gay marriage is legal, what is to stop the establishment of criminal gangs who intermarry to escape testimony against their spouses?

*Surviving spouses, it is my understanding, are entitled to social security survivor benefits on the theory that a woman who has foregone employment in favor of a domestic life is entitled not to starve after the death of her husband. A pension sufficient for one becomes insufficient when split 10 ways, say. If you don’t split the pension, I predict that the terminally ill affluent will become disproportionately marriageable.

While the percentage of males who want more than one partner surely approaches 100%, count me with those who doubt there will ever be a substantial constituency for polygamy. I am forced to suspect, Megan, that this is an attempt to win the vitriol you were denied for your race essay last week.

The difference between gay marriage and polygamy is that polygamy is still icky to many more of us than gay marriage. Unless the ickiness quotient of gay marriage as a concept rises again, it will inevitably take root. The idea that rational argument has anything to do with this is absurd.

“How does having more than one wife make a guy more likely to beat his kids?”

It was “abuse,” not “beat.” Neglect, is a form of abuse. There are other forms of abuse as well.

Of course there is pro-polygamy argument that more adults in a marriage means more support for everyone, but perhaps when this system fails, it fails spectacularly or it’s easier for some family members to be marginalized. It may also be more difficult for a disenfranchised family member to get out of a polygamous marriage. If an adult wants a divorce from the group, what compensation is that person entitled to, and what obligation to the group (child support) should be made (whose child is it really anyways and who is responsible for that child)?

Not that I have thought over reasons against polygamy that thoroughly. Basically, it just seems like our legal and social system cannot easily accommodate the permutations as Adam Sofen pointed out above, whereas same sex marriage is fairly trivial to work in.

Not that that is a reason to “deny rights” (however you want to understand that phrase), but demands of complexity is reasonable to keep things out of legislation. The legality of marriage and unions and child custody and citizenship is mired enough already; adding to that burden with the exponential demands of polygamy would be overwhelming. It can be argued that the amount of confusion would be detrimental to society as a whole.

Okay, John W., here goes: the State has an interest in marriage simply because it has an interest in caring for children. That is to say, if no one else cares for the children that inevitably result from the sexual union between an man and a woman, then the State has the obligation to care for them.

(The "State" is simply the name given to organized society. Obviously, the State can take many forms.)

So as our professor (Walter Wadlington) in Domestic Relations class at UVA law school said, the State therefore lays down rules for marriage for the primary purpose of protecting the children born of the union.

Ancillary notions of inheritence, sexual equality, etc., are just that: ancillary.

Taking this to its logical conclusion, then, any form of marriage that nurtures and raises the children to be productive members of society is okay. The societies that limit marriage to one heterosexual couple do so out of a combination of reasons which include religion and tradition.

So if a "civil union" between two homosexuals is not good enough, but has to be called a marriage even when there can be no children as a result of the union (yes, I recognize and know homosexual couples who adopt or in which one of the females uses artificial insemination to bear a child to the couple, but they are rare in total numbers), then why should other forms of unions (called "marriage" in several societies), which DO produce children, be illegal as long as the arrangement provides a stable environment for raising the children?

That's why people argue that if marriage between homosexual couples is a civil right, then how can you not say that other forms of marriage are not considered to be a civil right?

Burkean principles: no society we know of has ever had gay marriage, which maybe ought to tell us something.

So "Absence of proof is proof of absence" is a foundation of Conservatism? Far out.

Adding a little to my previous post, the fact that *children* are central to the State's interest in marriage also explains the State's interest in divorce. In some states, for instance, if there are no children of the marriage, a no fault divorce can be obtained in a relatively short period of time, but the time period is longer if there are children. And separation agreements can detail things like child support and custody, but those elements are always subject to judicial review because the parents can't contract away the rights of the children.

For those people interested in alternative marriage arrangements, I recommend the novels of Robert H. Heinlein, especially The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress (a "line marriage") of Friday (a "corporate" model marriage). Note that Heinlein was smart enough to know that a lot of marriage models will work AS LONG AS THE CHILDREN ARE PROPERLY CARED FOR.

Yancy, and other anti-civil-marriage types:

People can enter into all kinds of contracts, yes. But they rarely specify every possible contingency at the time of contracting. To fill in the gaps when conflict arises, the state offers default rules. Additionally, there are somethings that the state forbids one to do contractually, like work for less than minimum wage.

Marriage is no different. Most people want their spouse to inherit most of their estate, make medical decisions, have a cause of action for wrongful death, etc. Most people do not want to pay a lawyer to draft up a nifty contract specifying all these things. Hence: civil marriage, which comes complete with a set of default rules which accord broadly with the wishes of married couples all over.

In any case, even if the ideal libertarian utopia does not have civil marriage, it is so tightly bound up with virtually every area of our law that the bill eliminating civil marriage would be hundreds of pages long and have vast unintended consequences in strange areas that were never expected.

Justin JJ,

"But there's no corresponding polygamy movement. There are only a few fringe actors, and those tend to be geographically and culturally isolated. Unlike same-sex marriage, there's simply no real demand for polygamy. Simple inertia protects marriage as a duopoly.

One can think of any number of cultures where polygamy is accorded official sanction, any number of those cultures exist right here in the US due to immigration. If the demand for polygamy is greater than zero, what, ultimately is the argument for preventing it? I'm not following your arguement where you can sweepingly declare those inclined to such a relationship as "fringe actors" who are "geographically and culturally isolated." The notion that there is "no real demand for polygamy" is just empircally untrue.

Back up 20 years and any one of your arguements (Fringe actors, culturally isolated) could apply to gays/lesbians.

Can somebody please explain why marriage (especially when there are no children involved) should be any of the Government's [expletive-deleted] business in the first place?

Because marriage carries with it legal obligations and privileges, the enforcement/protection of which is the government's proper role, even in libertopia.

One can think of any number of cultures where polygamy is accorded official sanction, any number of those cultures exist right here in the US due to immigration. If the demand for polygamy is greater than zero, what, ultimately is the argument for preventing it?

I'm not arguing that it should be prevented. I'm arguing that it's not likely to happen, that even if gay marriage is the first step on a slippery slope to polygamy, that the community of people who want polygamy legalized is trivial compared to the gay community, and in no real position to capitalize on the slippery slope. Ultimately, I'm making a conservative argument: polygamy is illegal and culturally unfashionable, and will stay that way absent a community of polygamists at least comparable in demographic strength to the gay community.

I'm not following your arguement where you can sweepingly declare those inclined to such a relationship as "fringe actors" who are "geographically and culturally isolated." The notion that there is "no real demand for polygamy" is just empircally untrue.

Please demonstrate to me where these hotbeds of polygamists reside (yes, yes, I know about southern Utah). What are their organizations with effective national scope? In what cities do they hold annual parades to assert their demand for polygamy? Give us a ballpark on the number of people who would plausibly be interested in marrying polygamously.

You're right that it's an empirical question.

Back up 20 years and any one of your arguements (Fringe actors, culturally isolated) could apply to gays/lesbians.

The difference between the gay community and those who collectively could be called the polygamy community is that the gay community is fundamentally a single community built on one predicate that precedes gay marriage, namely being gay. That predicate existed twenty years ago, and throughout history. There was a gay community a hundred years ago who went about their business differently (e.g., "Boston marriages"), but they existed. That the last four decades have featured the gay community as a major cultural actor is due to just that predicate around which they could unite and act with some collective efficacy.

The various groups who make up a hypothetical polygamy community are fundamentalist Mormons, hard left polyamorists, and African or Muslim immigrants who come from polygamist cultures. While numerically they might equal the gay community, there's no underlying predicate that binds that community. Beyond that, it's only fundamentalist Mormons who are actively agitating for some form of polygamy. Assimilation pressures and generational change breed polygamy out of immigrant cultures in the U.S., and the polyamorous have yet to demonstrate any organization at all. The goal of polygamy is all they have in common, and I've seen nothing to indicate that, when a foot is placed on the slippery slope, there's an angry crowd waiting to shove us over the edge.

As you said, it's an empirical question. Show me a significant, effective polygamy community waiting in the wings to take advantage of the slippery slope, and I'll believe that the slippery slope matters.

Justin JJ,

From your comments, I take it that you believe it is allowable to strip certain people of their civil rights simply because they are small in number and diverse?

Can we ban people named Justin from marriage? Surely they are small in number and come from different communities.

"Too bad we can't adopt our friends so they could visit in the hospital, etc.

Posted by Ryan W."

In the UK you can marry your pals, as long as each party to the civil partnership must be of the same sex and be at least 16 years old. Any party who is already in a marriage or a civil partnership is also ineligible to register.

Also I think the only reason the US hasn't yet implemented this policy is the tax break for being married. Many other EU countries (UK included) do not give this benefit so there is no fiscal incentive to the state to prohibit such actions.

I imagine many a struggling college student wanting the tax back would write a prenuptial agreement with a good friend for a civil union. I would have.

Other than that I am with Yancey Ward & the Tenth Amendment.

The sex ratio is close to 50:50, so a society where the dominant coupling is monogamous heterosexual marriage finds a spouse for most people. Add in gays and lesbians, and as long as you have a roughly similar number of each, you still don't have a problem.

Introduce large-scale polygyny or polyandry, and you have a problem - a large number of "spare" un-partnerable people (cf. FLDS "lost boys"). This is a problem for society - these enforced singles don't have the investment in the future that families with children have.

"I frankly don't see why legal polygamy should be any worse than gay marriage."

Don't you see how offensive this wording is?

They are both WORSE?

It's exactly the same mind set where all this Hitler comparison appeassment crap is coming from.

What if I said it's no WORSE to be above average in height and occasionally mistaken for a man than to be gay?

I cry for this world, and want to give up.

Why would polygamy lead to men being unable to marry?

Primus, adult women outnumber adult men in all age cohorts. There is accordingly already a surplus of marriageable women; small numbers of polygynous marriages on a national scale would not leave men without potential mates.

Secundus, gay men outnumber gay women. There is accordingly an even larger surplus of marriageable women available for men than suggested by the raw man/woman numbers.

Tertius, in any probable scenario of polygamy being legalized as a consequence of gay marriage, legalized polygamy would not be restricted to heterosexual polygyny. And while plural marriages where the male members outnumber the female members might be "naturally" less common than the opposite, each polyandrous marriage would further increase the relative number of potential female marriage partners available to each unmarried heterosexual male.

Here's a modest...well, not proposal, but (Socratic) question: why does the state have any right to prohibit marrying, e.g., a corpse? After all, no one is hurt, right? And the chances of procreation without third party assistance are the same as those of homosexual couples. So what's the problem? Perhaps a little stability would help the Ed Geins of the world settle down. Who are we to deny him and his ilk that right?

Seriously, how could one not apply the same arguments for homosexual marriage to a necrophiliac one? (I know - some bright spark is going to cite the absence of consenting adults. But suppose someone agrees on his deathbed to a posthumous marriage, hmm?)

Answer: some institutions exist as much for the benefit of society as of the individual. Marriage promotes social stability, and is not lightly to be made into a Folsom Street Fair kind of joke (which it inevitably would be. Not all heterosexual couples have children, but that's irrelevant. The purpose of marriage is to encourage stable homes for raising children. The alternative can be seen in major urban areas, aka a genealogist's (and, not coincidentally, criminologist's) nightmare.

Don't you see how offensive this wording is? They are both WORSE? It's exactly the same mind set where all this Hitler comparison appeassment crap is coming from. What if I said it's no WORSE to be above average in height and occasionally mistaken for a man than to be gay?

Chip, meet Shoulder. I think you two kids will get along great.

Longer quote for aMouseforallSeasons:

"I frankly don't see why legal polygamy should be any worse than gay marriage. Which is good, because I'm pretty sure we'll see it within the next few decades."

Oh, it's ok for oppression to be fixed "eventually".

I'm sure I don't mind waiting.

And I mean the gay marriage part.

I can't deal with more than one person at a time.

And I like me a cute man.

Oh, it's ok for oppression to be fixed "eventually".

The way I understand it, the Taliban punished homosexuals, proven or merely suspected, by toppling a masonry wall onto the unwitting victim. In the United States, you merely cannot get a government certificate and subsidy for your alleged union, even though you can take each other into the haystack as often as you wish, open a joint bank account, designate each other as executor of estate, and drive a rainbow-colored Miata in public.

And yet you designate the latter case as an example as "opression".

You want to talk about offensive misuses of language? Clean your own house first.

I'm old. I'll never get married, I have no irons in this fire. I was not my intention to sound so intense...

What I guess I didn't make clear on my initial post was that I thought that too much of the import of these discussions hinged on the wording that people use in these situations. I know that Megan's blog is off the cuff, and she sometimes doesn't ("give too much thought"), {see how rude that is!} know how some of her statements will be interpreted. If I'm not cautious enough (and goodness knows I'm not!) in the phraseology that I employ, I might be perceived as using the type of ploys that have been attributed to Carl Rove.

See my wording? I didn't say he did it.

But when she said it the way she did, it put it in different terms....

You are not a mouse, but a man.

See how such a statement might be interpreted as a slight?

And I certainly didn't mean it that way. Thank you for your thoughtful posts.

Re: no society we know of has ever had gay marriage, which maybe ought to tell us something.

Once upon a time no society allowed women to vote. Should that have told us anything a century ago in the face of the sufragettes' demands?

As far as polygamy goes, number is a far more basic category than gender. The latter is a mere biological accident. The former is fundamental to logic. Ask yourself if the fact that we allow women, Blacks 18 year olds etc. to vote implies in any way that some (or all) people should be allowed to vote multiple times in the same election.

You are not a mouse, but a man.

I disagree; I have beady eyes, a sleek coat, and a tail to envy. They even modeled Reepicheep after me, albeit a stunt double was called in for some of the combat scenes, as my sword hand isn't well practiced.

I am politely, but chastely, thankful.

Could tail envy have anything to do with polygamy?

Swords are over-rated. Go for the light-saber every time.

Oh, well, so much for intellectualism, huh?

I think I'm learning alot.

I now know I need to learn to keep my mouth shut a bit better.

My "tail envy" statement is way too open to interpretation. Animals without fut on their tails are at an obvious disadvantage, and I shouldn't have let that be an issue.

Star Wars references aren't allowed.

I meant MY lack of intellectualism.....

Please forgive, I'm gone.

"If it's so unfair that some men will be left without wives, how come we don't force women to marry them? Because that's an outrageous violation of human liberty, that's why."

I'm sorry, this is where libertarian ideology needs to end and a sober look at reality needs to begin.

In a polygamous society, there will be swaths of leftover young men. And predictably, these young men will be awfully angry. If history is any guide, mobs of pissed off men rarely has a soothing effect on the society at large.

There's a reason why almost all successful societies have embraced monogamy.

The original argument seems to be: "Widening the definition of marriage cannot be used as a precident to widen it even further, and also, we should widen it further because it has been widened previously in the case of interracial couples."

So the second half of the argument (interracial couples as precedent for gay couples) disproves the first half (this won't set a precedent).

I wrote a really long response to the polygamy question on Ezra's blog, but instead of reposting it I'll try to summarize:

a) The CA court found that teh gays were a "suspect class," meaning that a law discriminating on that basis would be subject to strict scrutiny (a "suspect class" is defined by an "immutable characteristic" like gender or race; choices like religion don't count). Under strict scrutiny, the law would have to be narrowly tailored to meet a compelling state interest. Being a Mormon or a Muslim or the type of woman who wants to share her husband with three other women does not put you in a suspect class. A constitutional right can be withheld from any of those people for nothing better than a "rational purpose." Under this standard, "preserving the traditional definition of marriage" would almost certainly be sufficient "rational purpose." It would therefore be sufficient to exclude polygamy from the marriage right, as it has been to set an age of consent and define the boundaries of incest.

b) Megan asks it as an abstract question, but it's really not abstract at all; it's a question of law. The judicial process relies on the assumption that the sorts of people who become Supreme Court justices are going to have an idea about what constitutes a "compelling state interest" (or a "rational purpose") that's roughly in line with cultural norms, with an extra duty to protect minority rights that majority disfavor might like to curtail. The justices are in charge of noticing when a practice like sodomy that is so abhorrent that it's not protected by the right to privacy becomes just another kind of sex (Bowers, Lawrence). They're in charge of noticing when black people go from a class whose problem with segregation is blamed on their own inferiority complex to a protected minority (Plessy, Brown). There's no way to say why polygamy isn't just around the corner in California; it just hasn't gotten as far as gay marriage yet. Maybe it will; if and when it does, a ruling will follow. But that doesn't mean there's a "slippery slope," unless you want to argue that the exercise of constitutional interpretation is in itself a slippery slope, because what's happened here is what has been happening since the first Supreme Court convened: a very amorphous set of constitutional protections has been tested to see whether, in a given situation, it is applicable. It's like the Constitution is a lollipop and the justices' job is to look at the plaintiff before them and decide "does he/do they get a lollipop?" The pool of behaviors found to be protected has unsurprisingly tended to expand over time, so theoretically, I suppose, we can imagine that someday everybody will get a lollipop. But it's specious to propose that giving one person a lollipop means that you have to give someone else one, too. That person will get his lollipop if and when the justices decide that he deserves it.

While I'm certainly not here to defend, much less promote, polygamy -- and have no particular desire or need to equate it to gay marriage -- I certainly find that many statements made about polygamy are often uninformed and unhistorical. Here are a few bits of information for consideration:

-- Jewish polygamy appears to have continued from Biblical times until at least the 11th Century AD; some remnants of Jewish polygamy have survived to modern times.

-- Martin Luther (yes, that Martin Luther) felt polygamy was acceptable in some circumstances -- and allowed it in at least one specific case -- because "it does not contradict Scripture" (scroll down a bit).

-- I wrote two posts to a private e-mail list correcting efforts to draw parallels between the FLDS group down in Texas and the LDS (Mormon) Church, including showing dramatic differences between current FLDS practice of polygamy and how it was was practiced by the LDS Church in the late 19th Century.

For what it's worth. ..bruce..

From your comments, I take it that you believe it is allowable to strip certain people of their civil rights simply because they are small in number and diverse?

My comments say nothing of the sort.

well, not proposal, but (Socratic) question: why does the state have any right to prohibit marrying, e.g., a corpse?
a) As you say, corpses do have a hard time consenting to marriages.
b) In the case of the deathbed desire, this is not consenting to marriage. An intention to marry in the future is not a binding marriage contract. There are plenty of cases where people have given every indication they want to get married, obtained marriage licences, booked the priest, got the dress/suit, paid the florist, and then on the day changed their mind and left their fiance/fiancee standing pathetically at the altar. Legally, those people are not married. So even if a person does, on their deathbed, say they want to marry, that's not the same as actually marrying. Engagements are not legally binding.
c) How would marriage to a corpse work? You can't inherit their property, that's distributed by the person's will or their situation on death. The corpse can't run up any debts, or pay any of your debts, as they're a corpse. They can't testify against you in court anyway as they're a corpse. They can't visit you in hospital or prison as they're a corpse. Someone who is dead does not participate in contracts as they are a corpse. You can't employ someone who is a corpse, you can't take out a mortage with someone who is a corpse, you can't marry someone who is a corpse.

What compelling interest is there for heterosexual marriage? Marriage should have the same legal basis as other contracts between one or more people. The solution is to do away with what is known today as heterosexual marriage.

Free people should be able to enter into contracts of their choosing with other free people.


On one hand you want to do away with "what is known today as heterosexual marriage", on the other hand you say "Free people should be able to enter into contracts of their choosing with other free people". Well I'm a free person and I darn well chose to enter into hetrosexual marriage and I am rather intense about staying in that institution. So there's a contradiction here in what you are calling for. You can't do away with marriage while simultaneously allowing me and my husband to enter into contracts of our choosing.

Or are you going to argue that anyone who wants to enter into a hetrosexual marriage is by definition not free?

re: You can't do away with marriage while simultaneously allowing me and my husband to enter into contracts of our choosing.

I may have missed something, but has anyone here proposed banning marriage? Even if the far libertarian extreme were enacted (getting the government out of marriage altogether) you'd still be free to marry according to your own traditions. The government does not, for example, afford any legal recognition to baptism, but this does not prevent people from going through the sacrament.

In a polygamous society, there will be swaths of leftover young men.

As a practical matter, it is perfectly possible for a man to cohabit with two women simultaneously in most major urban areas of the United States today, without facing any legal sanction. However, there does not seem to be any vast surplus of leftover young men. How, exactly, would legalization of polygamous marriage change this? Keeping in mind that any form of marriage created as a "slippery slope" from gay marriage will be neutral as to the sexes of the members, and so arrangements of three husbands and two wives will be just as legal as one man with for wives.

The social taboo you refer to does not "rest on Burkean principles". It rests on a horror of otherness

The difference being..?

Jon F, I was quoting Yancy Ward: The solution is to do away with what is known today as heterosexual marriage.

You can find the original comment further up the page.

Even if the far libertarian extreme were enacted (getting the government out of marriage altogether) you'd still be free to marry according to your own traditions.

Actually, as far back as I know, in my family and in my husband's family history, everyone has had a marriage recognised by the NZ government. So no I couldn't get married according to my own traditions if the government was got out of marriage altogether.

Also, in my traditions, certain things happen when you marry. The biggest one is that you become each other's next-of-kin, with the associated inheritance rights and decision-making duties in the case of the other being incapacitated. Now my husband and I could write a contract which set up those rights, but, say, hubbie was knocked on the head and in a coma in hospital, and his parents and I got into a massive dispute about the best treatment for him. Surely the government could then step in to enforce our contract? Or would I, in this far libertarian extreme, have to settle it with pistols at dawn, or by bribing the hospital? Or would I automatically lose because his parents are his blood relatives?

It seems reasonable to me to assume that the government is capable of enforcing such a contract that makes me and my husband next-of-kin, even in this far libertarian extreme. So, we have not got the government out of marriage altogether. And, there's a place for the government to register marriages, so it knows who is married to whom, like it registers land titles. After all, if you're getting married, it might be good to check that in the event of hubby winding up in hospital, you are not going to be surprised by some other person who was also married to him without you knowing.

Now, a contract of the type we are talking about is a very serious deal. I'm going to present a hypothetical case. A rich elderly man hires a housekeeper, and eventually dies of old age (no murder cases here). The housekeeper then shows up with a piece of paper with his and her names to a contract like the one I envisaged earlier, and she is therefore the next of kin, and inherits the rich guy's millions. The kids say "Are you nuts?" It strikes me that the government, giving the seriousness of the amounts of money potentially involved (and also the serious of next-of-kin issues), has reasons to demand certain standards in signing the contracts, similiar to the two witnesses required for wills. This may include requiring witnesses, perhaps obliging the contract to be signed in front of a judge, so if the validity of a marriage is disputed there's more to go on than the word of an interested party and one signature of a dead bloke. Of course, such requirements are not perfect, but they can reduce fraud. So there's a place for government again.

So, we have the government enforcing contracts, and regulating under what conditions the contracts will be signed. Now, if the government is going to regulate which conditions the contract will be signed, then it has to specify what's different about a contract that requires, say, two witnesses and a contract that doesn't. So the government gets into specifying what a marriage is.

So once we've got to the stage of government involvement in enforcing a next-of-kin contract, and in registering who is who's next-of-kin, and in enforcing certain standards to check that the people involved actually both consented, what's wrong about the government supplying a standard contract?

And, once we have the government supplying a standard contract, perhaps we could permit the government to say that if two people have signed this contract, they are married? Rather than forcing the government into a nasty circumlocation like "Fred and Greg are each other's recorded next-of-kin", the government could be permitted to say "Fred and Lee are married"? Like it can say "Fred and Lee are Sarah's parents" rather than "Fred and Lee have contractual responsibility for the upbringing of Sarah"? As far as I can tell, the government is bad enough at coming up with nasty wordy ways rather than plain English, it seems mad to oblige them to do so just because of some theoretical dream about getting the government out of marriage.

This does actually make me curious, though: when did polygyny vanish in Europe? And why? And did it disappear in other areas of the world largely under European influence, or is there something else going on here?

In Vietnam men were allowed to keep up to 4 wives according to local tradition and law. I don't think polygyny really disappeared until the 1950s. It's clearly part of the drama of "modernization" but as in most places that drama was bound up with European influence or direct colonial rule, and it's an interesting question to what extent you can tease those two factors apart.

That person will get his lollipop if and when the justices decide that he deserves it.

This sounds like a wonderful model of principled republican government: unaccountable black-robed philosopher-kings distributing lollipops. Yes, that's j