« Food, glorious food . . . | Main | Think tank data »

Do unions matter?

13 May 2008 07:52 am

Liberals often complain that those of us who support school choice are just interested in smashing the teacher's unions. And to some extent, they have a point. To be clear, I do not object to the teacher's unions because they have a union. I object to the teacher's unions because teachers are among the competing interests that run low-income school districts for the benefit of the various interest groups, rather than the children. The union merely gives them more power to move value from children to teachers.

I do not say that they are malicious, though certainly in many cases the union clearly recognizes that they are benefitting their members at the expense of the children. But more of it is that the entrenched institutional arrangements, many of them enshrined in union contracts, are extraordinarily impervious to change. When an entire system has grown up around union arrangements, tweaking any substantial part of it threatens to throw the whole system into disarray.

Unions also give teachers power to resist changes that make their jobs less fun. I think the teachers genuinely believe that these changes are bad; but I also think that they strenuously resist learning anything to the contrary. There is really good evidence for the benefits of direct instruction in teaching disadvantaged children. But direct instruction moves the teacher into being more of a technician and less of a creative professional. Ian Ayers talks about this in Supercrunchers, giving the example of bank loan officers, which used to be a skilled, prestigious jobs, and are now almost a clerical role. Doctors and teachers are resisting an attempt to do similar things to their jobs through, respectively, evidence based medicine and direct instruction.

But it's more than that. In New York, the principal's union resisted an attempt to attract the system's top principals to failing schools by giving them a substantial bonus payment in the tens of thousands of dollars. The union vetoed this because the extra pay wouldn't accrue pension. Huh? It was entirely voluntary, the system couldn't afford pension payments, and the principals would have gotten an extra $25 grand or so. But no dice. Any change threatens the union, because it puts the delicate balance of power between all the competing interest groups in play.

Liberals rejoinder that it isn't the unions--it's the funding/poor kids/infrastructure/class size/textbooks. This sort of thing is hard to disprove conclusively, of course. But here's a data point: New Orleans smashes it's teachers union; test scores rise dramatically, even though it's still ministering to poor kids testing substantially below grade level.

Comments (74)

Part of the reason why mass transit runs so poorly in America is that unions effectively control most systems.

I do not say that they are malicious, though certainly in many cases the union clearly recognizes that they are benefitting their members at the expense of the children.

Consciously benefitting the members at the expense of the children isn't malicious?

I find it more likely that everyone involved convinces themselves that what benefits them is what's best for the children, irrespective of the actual facts.

Peter:
Part of the reason why mass transit runs so poorly in America is that unions effectively control most systems.

Well, first of all, when you say "poorly run", what exactly do you mean? That statement implies to me that you could take the existing demand level and financial resources of a given transit system, replace all the existing people with different people making less money and having less job security, and get significantly better results. I'm not sure that's true.

Here are three statements that I think are true:
1) Transit systems are mostly lousy in the US, in the sense that they are at best much more inconvenient than automobiles for everyday transportation. Some of them may be actively unpleasant in other ways (dirt, lateness, rudeness, etc.)
2) Most people in most places in the US have zero interest in riding transit (or at least this was true before $4 gas).
3) Vast resources have gone toward building the automobile infrastructure over the past 50 years, and comparatively little has gone to transit.
4) The living patterns in most places are not a good fit for transit.

You can argue which of these caused the others, but I don't think we would have ended up in a signficantly different place if the systems weren't unionized.

I don't understand why the government workers and public shool teachers need a union in the first place. Aren't unions designed to represent workers against rapacious capitalists who seek to exploit the people? Doesn't government take the side of said people against rapacious capitalists? Ergo, is not government then a beneficent employer that protects and fairly pays its workers? So where is the need for their union? I don't understand.

I'd like to make a clarification--unions protect teachers with seniority. Those who don't yet have tenure are only protected so much as they are future dues-payers. (And you pretty quickly get the idea that if you object to any of the political causes part of your paycheck is funding, you probably should keep quiet...) Of course, most new teachers have already spent several years either in ed school or substituting, so there's a certain amount of indoctrination already in place...

Four statements, I mean. I'll come in again.

"for the benefit of the various interest groups, rather than the children"

The children are an interest group too.

"even though it's still ministering to poor kids testing substantially below grade level..."

...in smaller class sizes with a huge infusion of federal money. I'll bet those unions were just fighting tooth-and-nail all those years against smaller class sizes and bigger budgets.

It's even worse than you think. There's what's good for the children. There's what's good for the teachers. And there's what's good for the union as an organization.

The key components to any teacher contract are protections and benefits for the union (exclusivity, release time, payroll deduction of dues, agency fee, et al.). This is to ensure that the union, and only the union, is the source of all good things for teachers. Hence the opposition to things like performance pay. The whole structure is built on the notion that without the union, no teacher would ever receive a pay raise.

"Consciously benefitting the members at the expense of the children isn't malicious?"

If the teachers worked for free, there would be more funding to spend on other educational needs for the children. Demanding pay is therefore malicious.

I also wonder about the union fascination with non-cash compensation.

Unions seem to fight much harder for benefits and work rules rather than for cold hard cash. I'd imagine all those Airline Pilots and Steel Worker etc. would have been much better off talking higher pay rather than promises of generous pensions that never materialized.

BP_Beckley:

Well, first of all, when you say "poorly run", what exactly do you mean? That statement implies to me that you could take the existing demand level and financial resources of a given transit system, replace all the existing people with different people making less money and having less job security, and get significantly better results. I'm not sure that's true.

I think your inability to see privatization and non-union employment arrangements, as anything other than "paying people less and giving them less job security", is a severe impediment to your understanding of the issues.

Someone with a personal, monetary stake in the success of a system, transit or otherwise, will strive for greater efficiency. Part of that means "don't hire high-grade labor where low-grade labor will suffice". That is, redesign parts of it so you don't need an intelligent person. To you, that shows up as "paying people less", when in reality it's changing the work.

Also, the greater potential to perform can lead to outcome-based pay and more rigorous judgment of performance, which is one factor in the greater happiness level of workers in more privately-run economies.

As for transit? There is precisely one intervention you need to fix the problem: place tolls on roads sufficient to eliminate congestion. Since they will be high, they will *make* public transit an attractive option. It will even lead to privately-run (i.e. actually good and efficient) systems, and organization of construction around nodes that further reinforce the efficiency of mass transit, plus give signals about where transit lines should be located.

Please don't strawman this proposal as, "well even a $10 toll ain't gonna make no one take a bus". The plan was to make tolls high enough to clear congestion, and I meant it. If it means a $50 toll, so be it.

But even though this will save people tons of valuable time, and have numerous other benefits, no one will support it because of a) deep-seated resistance to tolls, and b) resentment of the rich people that will still be able to drive alone.

What about the school board and Superintendent? What about their salaries? Do you know what some Supers get paid? I know Libertarians hate unions(generally), but with out unions, it would be a race to the bottom. And then again, even unions can't stop the race to the bottom(see outsourcing to India and China as just one example).

That is, redesign parts of it so you don't need an intelligent person. To you, that shows up as "paying people less", when in reality it's changing the work.

And the goal of redesigning parts of the system so that you don't need an intelligent person is something other than paying people less? You don't appear to like the phrase "paying people less", but maybe you should get over that, considering that's what you're advocating.

As for transit? There is precisely one intervention you need to fix the problem: place tolls on roads sufficient to eliminate congestion.

You're making the same point I did. You have proposed fixing transit by making a substantial change in how the automobile based transportation works, and that has nothing to do with whether transit systems are unionized or not.

"Unions seem to fight much harder for benefits and work rules rather than for cold hard cash"

That makes sense when you work for an entity like a public school that isn't going to go out of business (which is also the reason public sector employees should be barred by law from going on strike - they face little or no economic risk doing so). In the private sector though, you're absolutely right - favoring deferred benefits over higher wages is insane.

I had to google "Direct Instruction" because I hadn't heard of it before. Silly me I should have known that the PhD pedagogues had to "invent" the concept that many of us call a "lecture" and most call "teaching".

Scarily, I had heard of all the goofy methods they contrasted it to -- discovery learning, problem based learning, inventiveness, immersion, etc.

J,

Labor negotiators met Monday in an urgent effort to hammer out a budget crisis resolution before the Vallejo City Council votes for drastic cuts or to pursue bankruptcy.

Officials from both sides declined to comment publicly on the closed-door talks, which followed the surprise retirement last week of 21 police officers and firefighters. City and union officials now confirm the employees fled out of fear that Vallejo may be unable to buy out accrued sick leave and vacation pay.

Though they remain optimistic, several council members said Monday the city is inching toward bankruptcy. They noted that buying out retirement benefits will exacerbate a $10 million cash shortfall that could leave Vallejo unable to cover payroll within six weeks.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_8306159

I think many government employees are under the impression that their benifts are backed by the full faith and credit of the U.S. of A. And that really isn't the case.

Bladedoc:

I'm not a teacher, but from what I've read of Direct Instruction, it's much more than a lecture. The lecture is done from a script followed by semi-rigorous assessment to create a feedback loop. Basically, it turns teaching into a semi-mechanical activity.

Which is not to say that it's a bad way to learn but it does seem like a not-as-enjoyable way to teach. And there lies the rub. The evidence I've seen shows that DI is more effective at teaching kids while it reduces the job satisfaction of teachers and so teacher unions resist it.

i am a public school teacher posting on my lunch break, which even with union protection lasts a contractual 25 minutes.
People who refuse to see that thier children benefit from union teachers should spend one day or one week or one school year shadowing a teacher.
With two degrees and 10 years in a system i still make just 54 thousand dollars. yes I have good insurance, yes I have 8 weeks off every summer but really 54 thousand in CT isn't not much for 10 years in with a masters.
I have worked in private schools in the same community and had no protection and made just 27 and paid a hefty chunk of my own insurance. many teachers had two or three other jobs and please believe you do not want to leave your children with adults who have three jobs and never sleep.
you want to believe that taxes shouldn't be so high, that teachers cost too much but
stop being so dumb.
expressions like dirtect instruction make sense in the context of our profession and make it possible to talk about important differences.

Its funny to hear ignorant people discuss education and my job.

But here's a data point: New Orleans smashes it's teachers union; test scores rise dramatically, even though it's still ministering to poor kids testing substantially below grade level.

Megan, megan, megan...

you've been duped by the NYT and their horrible editorial review of education stories. I'll select some quotes from the more ingenuous Times-Picayune article:

Fourth-graders posted much larger gains than eighth- or 10th-graders, who posted modest increases compared with 2007 and in a couple of cases stagnated or dipped slightly....

Although substantial changes in the schools and student populations during the past two years make direct comparisons or decisive conclusions difficult, Recovery School District Superintendent Paul Vallas said the scores represent "consistent growth across the system."...

Vallas acknowledged, however, that apples-to-apples comparisons with last year are difficult because of the large influx of new students in district-operated schools...

Given the instability New Orleans children faced in the two years after the storm and the turmoil as the Recovery District opened in the fall of 2006, some test score gains were to be expected.


According to th NYT, 8th graders had a 4% increase and 4th graders had a 12% increase. Is that really "drammatic"? And then there is this about high schoolers:

For instance, high school scores for the schools under the auspices of the Orleans Parish School Board took a dip, while fourth- and eighth-grade results rose overall. About 16 percent of students taking the test for the first time failed the English GEE this year compared with 13 percent in 2007. Twenty-three percent failed in math, compared with 18 percent last year.

I had to google "Direct Instruction" because I hadn't heard of it before. Silly me I should have known that the PhD pedagogues had to "invent" the concept that many of us call a "lecture" and most call "teaching".

This isn't quite accurate, but the confusion is understandable since it is often incorrectly written in lowercase instead of initial caps.

Direct Instruction is not the same as direct instruction, it is a particular kind of direct instruction.

direct instruction is the generic name for teacher-led instruction, such as lecture and the like.

Direct Instruction is a specific method of teahing developed by Zig Engelmann and Wes Becker. See here.

Direct Instruction does have a large research base. Typically, the academic performance of students can be increased by about a standard deviation using a fairly well implemented Direct Instruction program.

Which is not to say that it's a bad way to learn but it does seem like a not-as-enjoyable way to teach. And there lies the rub. The evidence I've seen shows that DI is more effective at teaching kids while it reduces the job satisfaction of teachers and so teacher unions resist it.

You might want to take a look at this video on the Gering school district of Nebraska that recently adopted a whole school implementation of DI. The video is a promotional video from the National Institue of Direct Instruction, but it dioes give you a fair idea of what DI is and has many interviews with actual Gering teachers explaining what teaching DI is like. The teachers are initially sceptical, but come around with familiarity and once they see the students' improvement.

Hence the opposition to things like performance pay. The whole structure is built on the notion that without the union, no teacher would ever receive a pay raise.

Sigh. For about the 20,000 time: a _lot_ of teachers would like to see something like performance pay instituted. Myself included. But we do not want to have 'performance pay' in the hands of people who would use it like a club. Especially (and this is reason enough to question the motivations of those pushing the things) since very little effort seems to be put into actually measuring performance - too many confounding factors that swamp variations in performance that simply aren't accounted for, or airily dismissed as "They'll all even out in the end."

There's also the slight problem that measuring improvements in student performance is itself a dicey and expensive proposition.

Megan~

Have you completely given up trying to be credible? Let's ask a simple question: which states do not give teachers' unions monopoly representation privileges and mandatory dues collection? Here is the list:

Arizona Mississippi Utah
Arkansas Missouri Virginia
Colorado New Mexico West Virginia
Georgia North Carolina Wyoming
Kentucky South Carolina
Louisiana Texas

(Note: Louisiana is on the list. Did you actually read the article Alex linked to? I did and it didn't mention anything about teachers' unions. So who is the bigger hack--the blogger who links to an article that doesn't support his point or the blogger who links to that post to support her post.)

Given your view of the negative effects that teachers' unions have on education, one would expect some correlation between educational quality and the presence or absence of teachers' unions. How many of the sixteen states in the above list are in the top quartile of US education rankings? A quick Google search tells me that only one is and that two more are in the second quartile. Hmmmmmm. I'm trying to understand how that can be.

Megan McArdle writes:

Liberals rejoinder that it isn't the unions--it's the funding/poor kids/infrastructure/class size/textbooks. This sort of thing is hard to disprove conclusively, of course. But here's a data point: New Orleans smashes it's teachers union; test scores rise dramatically, even though it's still ministering to poor kids testing substantially below grade level.

It is this kind of thoughtless "analysis" which causes liberals to wonder how McArdle graduated her MBA program. Hurricane Katrina smashes into New Orleans is a more likely cause of any change in test scores than "New Orleans smashes it's teachers union."

Why anybody would ever think that unions have or even should have the kids interests at heart is beyond me. As Albert Shankar, late head of the American Federation of Teachers, once said "I represent the teachers. If the children want me to represent them, let them start paying union dues." (Quote approximate, from memory)

That is exactly as it should be. Unions have a fiduciary responsibility to represent their members interests. As soon as they begin representing anyone else's interests they are guilt y of malfeasance and open to being sued by their members.

For unions to consider anyone's interests other than their members is against the law under the National Labor Relations Act. Most teachers, as gov't employees, are outside the NLRA but the principle remains.

It is the school board's or department of education's (city, state, federal) job to represent the interests of the children. They do a piss-poor job of it but it NOT the union's job.

John Henry

PS: Someone mentioned that they make $54,000/yr as a teacher and it is not much for 10 years experience and a Masters degree. Sounds like a lot to me, it is more than an architect makes.

I have an MBA and MS in education. I also taught for 22 years in the business school of the same U whose Ed School awarded my masters. My MBA is from another school. I currently teach in an industrial engineering program. I've also been married to a HS teacher (history & civic) for 34 years. In other words, I did not fall off the (education) pickle boat yesterday.

Let me be very clear: A masters degree in education is NOT! in any way comparable to other masters degrees. It is perhaps comparable to a 2 year Associates degree in other fields. It is totally non-rigorous. It is a total joke as far as a degree goes.

The only reason for masters degrees for teachers is so school districts can tout the quality of their teachers.

The main thing I learned going through ed school is that, considering how we train teachers, it is a miracle that the system isn't even worse than it is.

We should burn down all the ed schools.

I have no problems with Unions trying to increase the pay of their teachers. But I do have a problem with them fighting any chance of choice for low income students and parents. There is nothing wrong with private schools (at least no more so than public schools) and some type of voucher system would promote some alternatives. I don't mean to argue that private schools would necessarily be better than public ones, but rather some private schools could be better than some public schools and the parents and students (especially the ones who otherwise couldn't afford private schools) should have the choice available to them.

John Henry, I agree it is the school board's job to look out for the children. The school board in my town has some very nice people, an engineer, a stay at home mom, a small business owner, etc. I just fear that when they get in a room with a professional union negotiator they get eaten for lunch.

Just because a state doesn't have mandatory collective bargaining doesn't mean the union is "absent." Every state has an NEA affiliate with a strong presence in the legislature.

And I always love it when people want to compare the test scores of Connecticut and Mississippi and credit the result to teachers' unions.

Suppose the title of this post was 'Does the administration matter?' Paul Vallas has been very successful in Chicago and Philadelphia.

Suppose the title of this post was 'Does the talent level of teachers matter?' Teach for America, one key part of Vallas's strategy, is very selective and accepts only top scholastic achievers.

But neither title supports the belief that unions mar a perfect economic distribution system. Are the interests of students (and their parents) and teachers aligned? Absolutely not. Many (but not all) students want top marks for no effort. Teachers resist that desire. Unions help balance power between parents, administration, and teachers.

I've been out of the education gig for some fifteen years, so this was the first I had heard of Direct Instruction. I read the page linked to by a previous commenter supposedly explaining it. It was all very vague, but it seems to be providing the teachers with scripts to follow. It didn't say what happens when the students don't follow the scripts, so I suppose that is left to the imagination.

The thing is, the history of educational theory is positively littered with wonderful schemes backed by solid research that will revolutionize education. That sound you hear is my eyes rolling.

Many of these ideas aren't actually bad, and not all the research is actually bogus. The problem is the idea that something that works in the lab can necessarily be expanded to the general population; that something that works for one student or one teacher will work for another.

It could be that Direct Instruction is something different: not merely this decade's fad, but the real deal. History suggests otherwise, but we could be surprised. But let's not get too breathless about it in the meantime.

Oh, and if you really want a magic bullet, there is not any great mystery to it: class size. A good teacher combines the knack of conveying knowledge and crowd control. This is a fairly rare combination. The smaller the class size, the less important the crowd control function and the more you can succeed with teachers without a knack for it. But people want a bullet which is not only magic, but cheap.

The problem with this analysis is that economists aren't unionized ...

The problem isn't that there is a union, it's that we elect current and ex union members to school boards. They are voting on contractual arrangements while receiving public pension benefits themselves. Similarly, superintendents came up through the system and are negotiating with the union they just quit. So you don't have a true negotiation when it comes to contract talks. Instead, they're self dealing.

Privatization keeps greed in check through competition. It's why microprocessors get faster and cheaper every year. Intel can't charge too much or let their product become obsolete because AMD is waiting there to take their market share. It will work with schools as well if we ever get tired of the current mess. Anyone who has worked in Western Europe knows that our schools are relatively ineffective. The average French student in a college prep track is roughly two years ahead of ours by age eighteen, when they receive their baccalaureates. Arguing about 4% test score changes is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Schools in Japan achieve superior results with large class sizes. The problem is the lack of discipline in the classroom, not the size of the class. That isn't the fault of the teachers.

Any Drill Instructor in the Marine Corps can get and maintain the attention of 70-75 people at a time, for 2-3 times longer than a school day, without a MS in Education.


John Henry - The Shanker quote is

“When school children start paying union dues, that 's when I'll start representing the interests of school children.”

He also said

“It's time to admit that public education operates like a planned economy, a bureaucratic system in which everybody's role is spelled out in advance and there are few incentives for innovation and productivity. It's no surprise that our school system doesn't improve; it more resembles the communist economy than our own market economy.”

more at
http://thinkexist.com/quotes/albert_shanker/

Schools in Japan achieve superior results with large class sizes. The problem is the lack of discipline in the classroom, not the size of the class. That isn't the fault of the teachers.

Any Drill Instructor in the Marine Corps can get and maintain the attention of 70-75 people at a time, for 2-3 times longer than a school day, without a MS in Education.

Posted by MarkD | May 13, 2008 3:24 PM

La, la, la, la. Liberals can't hear you. American children(and their parents) shouldn't be disparaged, as that is un-American. Your post will go straight to the "Memory Hole" and we'll all pretend you never said that.

Good thing I'm not a liberal - I agree with MarkD (I'm a math teacher.) And no offense but:

Oh, and if you really want a magic bullet, there is not any great mystery to it: class size. A good teacher combines the knack of conveying knowledge and crowd control. This is a fairly rare combination. The smaller the class size, the less important the crowd control function and the more you can succeed with teachers without a knack for it. But people want a bullet which is not only magic, but cheap.

Is off the mark. The top predictors of academic outcomes are 1)parental involvement, 2)parental occupation and income, and 3) neighborhood composition. All of which correlate well with lower class sizes.

No, what's happening is that the kids simply aren't doing their work. The problem with education is the parents. In an ideal world, they'd be unfailingly polite when they addressed me, and would be wroth to question my judgment, or assume by default that their kids are telling the truth, and that the teacher is merely a bad teacher (gee, sort of like what they have in - Japan!) The reality is that parents really don't care about education; they care about grades. And rather than make sure that their kids are actually doing the assigned homework and studying, reading the assigned material, and cracking down when they don't, the parents take the easy way out and blame the teacher.

You want to fix education? Give the teachers authority as well as responsibility. Let them have the power to assign grades as they should be assigned, not this barely passing = 'B' nonsense. Let them have the undisputed right to kick kids out for being disruptive or disrespectful, or for in any way undermining the teachers' authority. If they don't pass a class, or don't do the required work to be promoted, tough.

_That's_ what will be good for the ailing educational system.

No need for a drill instructor or Japanese students - with some leadership and a touch of a hard nose American students will volunteer to be put through their paces. Look at any Pop Warner or high school football team.

Now if we could just transfer that ethos to the classroom...

Michael C. writes:

With two degrees and 10 years in a system i still make just 54 thousand dollars. yes I have good insurance, yes I have 8 weeks off every summer but really 54 thousand in CT isn't not much for 10 years in with a masters.

Connecticut schools are required to be open 180 days, or 36 weeks. Actual instruction during that time is set by law to be 1,050 hours (5.83 hours per day) for grades 1 through 6 and 1,137 hours (6.32 hours) for grades 7-12. Most secondary school teachers also have one free period during those 6.32 hours when they are not teaching.

So, we're not talking about 8 weeks off, are we? Even granting the holidays extending the school year, and a couple weeks paid vacation and we're looking at about 13 weeks with no responsibilities in a 52-week year. $54,000 per annum for 38 weeks work isn't all that bad, Michael. Maybe we should go to year-round schools and those who want to can teach year-round and earn 30% more by working 30% more. What a novel concept. Lucky for you, most people aren't aware of the generous provisions of section 403(b)tax sheltered annuities available only to a select few Americans such as yourself.

How many weeks are you engaged in direct instruction, Michael? How many "important meetings and conferences" are you paid to attend during the school year, or when the entire school is closed for the day for "parent-teacher conferences." Education somehow managed without those for hundreds of years, and its been a consistent slope downward as the numbers of those meetings increased in recent decades. I live within spitting distance of three different schools (elementary, junior high, and high school) and have yet to see any of the parking lots even half full of teachers' cars on those days. True, they all make an appearance some time in the course of a day just to keep up appearances.

As to your two degrees, Michael, what are they in? What that second degree allows you is to be further across the right side of the scale each time you advance to the next level (years teaching) on the left hand of the scale. No distinction is made between people who made a serious effort to get a useful second degree and those who chose the easy way of classes offered by a diploma mill with simple-minded tests that a fourth grader could pass. True, some still fail, but teacher competency exams are not the subject here.

Your write as if your degrees would be useful elsewhere, and it is a crying shame you are paid so poorly after obtaining them. Perhaps they are, perhaps not. Based on what I've read and endured, a masters in education, however, isn't worth the paper it is written on, unless you remain in the public education system.

Those that can are fleeing the public education system in greater numbers year after year, Michael. Combine those fleeing the system and paying high fees elsewhere with those who already fled or never had children in school (a percentage that is growing as well) and declining public support for public education at the ballot box is inevitable. Education is in crisis and most of the responsibility lies on the collective shoulders of educators.

You want to fix education? Give the teachers authority as well as responsibility. Let them have the power to assign grades as they should be assigned, not this barely passing = 'B' nonsense. Let them have the undisputed right to kick kids out for being disruptive or disrespectful, or for in any way undermining the teachers' authority. If they don't pass a class, or don't do the required work to be promoted, tough.

True ScentofViolets, but educators began unilaterally abandoning that role about 25-30 years ago when the vast majority of parents would not have dreamed of second-guessing school authority. Getting that power back is the hard part because the new parents have never known anything but the supine moral relativism of the modern educational establishment. I agree, too, that the parents ARE the biggest problem but recent generations of educators made THEM, and their expectations, what they are.

I agree entirely with everything you said, ScentofViolets.

Judgment Day must be nigh.

"Actual instruction during that time is set by law to be 1,050 hours (5.83 hours per day) for grades 1 through 6 and 1,137 hours (6.32 hours) for grades 7-12. Most secondary school teachers also have one free period during those 6.32 hours when they are not teaching."

You seem to be under the misapprehension that a teacher is either in front of a class or not working.

"So, we're not talking about 8 weeks off, are we?"

Well, no. Your first clue might have been what Michael C actually wrote: "...yes I have 8 weeks off every summer..." Most, though not all, jobs have paid vacation and holidays. The long summer break is what sets teaching apart. What Michael C wrote is precisely on point: a discussion of how much that long summer break is worth.

Oh, and all those various paid vacations? Don't assume that no work is being done during them. Most teachers, at least on the high school level, routinely do grading at home in the evenings and on weekends.

The other teacher is correct. The biggest variable in student achievement is the parents. They determine if their child will be disruptive or not.

I looked up "direct instruction" at its website and it said "Direct Instruction (DI) is a model for teaching that emphasizes well-developed and carefully planned lessons designed around small learning increments and clearly defined and prescribed teaching tasks."

This is supposed to be new? When I taught jr and sr high we always had detailed lesson plans, complete with federally or state mandated goals to achieve for each lesson, a detailed plan including sample questions for Q&A, and measurable goals. We filled out a standardized form for each lesson and kept them on the corner of our desks. The administration could review them at any time, and they were part of our performance review.

Megan's remarks about how teachers "resist changes that make their jobs less fun" is deeply insulting to a lot of hard-working men and women. Plus we have no teacher's unions here, so it's strange to see people talk about "national" policies that would only apply to East Coast Elites. I guess it's easier to bash women teachers than firemen and policemen, who have even stronger unions.

"Moral relativism" is the reason parents don't discipline? No, not in the real world. The reasons are: Too busy working two or more jobs, mental or emotional problems, or an elitist attitude towards teachers. I've had many upper-class students tell me that they knew more about the subject than I, or express surprise that I have a University degree. Their parents told them teachers are lazy, ignorant union-lovers who just wanted to have fun.

Let them have the undisputed right to kick kids out for being disruptive or disrespectful, or for in any way undermining the teachers' authority.

This would be great, provided the teachers had appropriate internal accountability so as not to be arbitrary.

Sadly, the threat of lawsuits looms, as it does with bad grades. And you don't even what to think about what happens when the discipline percentages by, say, race, don't match up with the makeup of the school.

I suppose getting sued is a form of accountability, but it's a terribly expensive one. Still, coming up with a couple million to defend the suits do the death might do more for a city's schools than any amount of physical plant upgrades.

(Broadly, BTW, I agree that parents are a big problem)

This would be great, provided the teachers had appropriate internal accountability so as not to be arbitrary.

The ignorance of what goes on in schools is astounding. Do you seriously think a school district doesn't have a bureauocracy that outlined disciplinary procedures in exhaustive detail? I could sit and tell you the disciplinary procedure for my school but it would take forever. Everything is documented and accountable, becasue parents almost always deny their precious little darling did anything wrong.

The ignorance of what goes on in schools is astounding. Do you seriously think a school district doesn't have a bureauocracy that outlined disciplinary procedures in exhaustive detail?

I never said anything of the kind, and I don't particularly like the accusation of ignorance. SoV proposes a substantial increase in teacher power. I endorse this proposal, with the caveat that it must be accompanied by appropriate oversight--because power without accountability is rarely a good thing. And also because if you want to fight the lawsuits to the death as I propose, you'd better build a good case. I made (and make) no comment on existing school disciplinary documentation and appeal procedures.

I fail to see anything remotely controversial (or ignorant) in what I said.

I suggest you consider having a dermatologist remove the chip from your shoulder.

The top predictors of academic outcomes are 1)parental involvement, 2)parental occupation and income, and 3) neighborhood composition. All of which correlate well with lower class sizes.

If by "top" you mean "moderate," you'd be correct. SES correlates with student achievement at about 0.4 sd, so only 20% of the variance in achivement is attributable to SES factors. IQ is another moderate correlation, and is even higher than SES effects at between 0.4 to 0.7 depending on the study.

On the other hand small class sizes has a poor track record of success when it has been studied, despite the earnest beliefs of many commentors. See here.

Let them have the undisputed right to kick kids out for being disruptive or disrespectful, or for in any way undermining the teachers' authority.

"This would be great, provided the teachers had appropriate internal accountability so as not to be arbitrary."

"I made (and make) no comment on existing school disciplinary documentation and appeal procedures."

Doesn't the first quote negate the second?

I click onto Megan's site after many weeks away and see myself completely agreeing with a comment by SoV! What's gone on around here.....?

Susan: no, it's meant as a conditional statement. I favor increasing teacher power provided that there is appropriate accountability. Such accountability may or may not already exist; there may in fact be too much accountability already. No comment on that question.

Here's a reprhase, hopefully adequate to eliminate ambiguity:

"...provided teachers would have appropriate..."

True ScentofViolets, but educators began unilaterally abandoning that role about 25-30 years ago when the vast majority of parents would not have dreamed of second-guessing school authority. Getting that power back is the hard part because the new parents have never known anything but the supine moral relativism of the modern educational establishment. I agree, too, that the parents ARE the biggest problem but recent generations of educators made THEM, and their expectations, what they are.

Do you have _any_ evidence for this? Sounds like more truthiness to me, given that I was in school at the upper end of that time frame, and I never saw anything like that. The closest realization of your image is the high-school counselor with Jonathon Livingston Seagull posters (again, impe) and the print cotton dress.

I agree entirely with everything you said, ScentofViolets.

Judgment Day must be nigh.

Hmmm. Probably because we share the common heritage of old farts, rather than a coincidental agreement of outlook(or maybe not.)

My problem with the current system is this: great, overarching excuses are made as to why certain students or certain groups of students don't perform as well as they should. They have 'mental problems', like ADHDA, or they have 'problems at home', or 'they're not getting the help and support they need from their family', any and every excuse except the one that puts the blame squarely where it lies - the kid's not doing any work.

Now, maybe I am a liberal in this respect: if you show me you're really trying hard, and still not making the grade, I will personally tutor you every day of the week. I will assign you extra credit - real extra credit, not 'book report' extra credit. I will listen to suggestions as to what I went over too fast, what I spent too much time on, what I was unclear about, why you deserve partial credit, even though I couldn't see where you were going on a certain problem.

But don't expect any sympathy, or understanding, or slack from me if you don't do the work, however poorly it's executed, or if you don't read the assignment. That's all on you. No, it will not be covered in class. Yes, you will be expected to know it for quizzes and exams if it's in the assigned reading material. Don't whine that 'we didn't cover it in class' (one of my students favorite excuses) merely because we didn't do a specific example of that type of problem - there are waaaay too many specific examples to cover in a 50 minute class period.

No workee, no gradee.

This would be great, provided the teachers had appropriate internal accountability so as not to be arbitrary.

Sadly, the threat of lawsuits looms, as it does with bad grades. And you don't even what to think about what happens when the discipline percentages by, say, race, don't match up with the makeup of the school.

I've got no problems with rolling the cameras during class periods, and keeping the records for up to six months. And if the 'discipline percentages' don't match the makeup of the school, well, I could care less. So long as there's a record. Susan of Texas is right in that regard; I have a huge backlog of old homework, quizzes, tests, gradebooks, attendance sheets, going back five years and more. For the sole reason that documentation is your friend. My school will support me, should any conflicts arise . . . provided I have documentation. I don't have that, and the dean will cave to parental demands to 'fix' a grade in an instant. It's been done here before, it's certainly done abroad in China, Japan, etc., where apparently due to cultural norms, teachers are accorded far more respect than they are here. If there's a problem, maybe we should look to their system to see how they manage.

One reform that could be instituted relatively easily is separating teaching from assessment. Combining the two creates an incentive toward grade inflation, and places students and teachers in a somewhat adversarial relationship. Casting teachers as helping students to prepare for a future day of reckoning (perhaps by the teachers of another school, or other external agency) that is out of the teacher's hands makes their interests more nearly coincide.

Doing so would, of course, require some standardization of curricula, which could be a problem. NCLB arguably introduces some measure of this external validation.

And if the 'discipline percentages' don't match the makeup of the school, well, I could care less.

I can guarantee you that there is a "civil rights" attorney out there who cares very much, and probably a set of Profoundly Concerned politicians.

Which is another way of saying, yes, the parents are the problem.

RW Rogers writes:

"Connecticut schools are required to be open 180 days, or 36 weeks. Actual instruction during that time is set by law to be 1,050 hours (5.83 hours per day) for grades 1 through 6 and 1,137 hours (6.32 hours) for grades 7-12. Most secondary school teachers also have one free period during those 6.32 hours when they are not teaching.

So, we're not talking about 8 weeks off, are we? Even granting the holidays extending the school year, and a couple weeks paid vacation and we're looking at about 13 weeks with no responsibilities in a 52-week year. $54,000 per annum for 38 weeks work isn't all that bad, Michael. Maybe we should go to year-round schools and those who want to can teach year-round and earn 30% more by working 30% more. What a novel concept. Lucky for you, most people aren't aware of the generous provisions of section 403(b)tax sheltered annuities available only to a select few Americans such as yourself.

How many weeks are you engaged in direct instruction, Michael? How many "important meetings and conferences" are you paid to attend during the school year, or when the entire school is closed for the day for "parent-teacher conferences." Education somehow managed without those for hundreds of years, and its been a consistent slope downward as the numbers of those meetings increased in recent decades. I live within spitting distance of three different schools (elementary, junior high, and high school) and have yet to see any of the parking lots even half full of teachers' cars on those days. True, they all make an appearance some time in the course of a day just to keep up appearances."
---

As already pointed out by at least one other poster, RW, the time teachers are on the job is more than just the time spent in front of students. Add to your schedule the time spent monitoring the halls during class changes, the lack of time to go to the bathroom, just 25 minutes for lunch (that's the official time - usually works out to about 17-20 minutes after getting the students out, and being back in the hallway before they come back). Oh, and that 'free period' you cite, most often teachers use that to do one or more of the following - check on truant/upset students, chase down transfer grades, mark papers, run paperwork on disruptive students to the appropriate office(s), substitute for colleagues who are absent, or just maybe take a deep breath after an especially trying class. As an aside, RW, did you have coffee breaks? Did you have a supervisor who could tell you to 'go' when you needed a few extra minutes to go get your kids, or make it to a doctor's appointment?

I don't know how it is in CT, but here in Florida, we teachers have been appointed as semi-official child abuse officers, as we are required by law to report any suspected instances of abuse, or face losing our certification. One ignored bruise or unreported scream-fest, and one could lose his livelihood and retirement income. By the way, this requirement is 24/7.

All of those "important meetings and conferences" - Yes, education managed without them, but, then again, it also managed to remove disruptive or uninvolved students at a much higer rate than can be achieved in the current system. It takes a lot of effort and communication to try to keep them in school, as is currently required. I can bet that your school district in has set up various training sessions at various locations in the district, just like mine does, and the staff at the schools go to those sites, many of which probably aren't in range of your spittle. Other teachers can get special dispensation to take care of personal business, similar to comp time, due to being at the work site extra time for things such as parent conferences, filling out paperwork, or sponsoring/chaperoning extracurricular activities. Yes, some teachers just 'make an appearance', many because it is Friday morning, and they have all 130 or so projects at home to complete grading by Monday.

Year-round school is something I would whole-heartedly support, RW, except for the fact that people do not honor the time we currently have with the kids. In-school activities, unscheduled assemblies, parents taking vacations during the school year, or unilaterally extending spring(Easter) and/or winter(Christmas) breaks by 2-3 days each, and expecting that all instruction comes to an end at least one week before the end of the school year can reduce the number of instructional days drastically. 30% more pay for 30% more work? I don't know what kind of politicians you have up there in CT, but I can assure you that it would be more like 10-15% more pay for 35% more work, in addition to the fact that any continuing education credits that I have to take will have to be taken at night or on weekends, instead of during the summer days, and I would have to foot the complete bill for this, as well.

So, RW, if things are so wonderful for teachers, maybe you should try to become one of the select few Americans like Michael and myself. Oh, be sure and come down to Florida for awhile, where they may be able to start you off at a generous salary of about 28-30,000 per year. How much does a 403(b) plan help, when one has to pay the lion's share of their own medical insurance, and child care? I have been in this system 19 years, am making about 44,000 per annum, and have only been able to take advantage of a 403(b) for about the last 10 years. It can be quite out of reach for a single parent.

I bet a smaller class size reduces teacher work-load by a whole lot though.

"Are the interests of students (and their parents) and teachers aligned? Absolutely not. Many (but not all) students want top marks for no effort. Teachers resist that desire."

Yes, Deggjr, we all gang up on the poor teacher unions who are there to help their members stand up for excellence and resist grade inflation.

"Unions help balance power between parents, administration, and teachers."

Such nice words. I suppose Mayor Daly helped balance the power between Illinois voters, the Democratic party, and Jack Kennedy.

I've been out of the education gig for some fifteen years, so this was the first I had heard of Direct Instruction. I read the page linked to by a previous commenter supposedly explaining it. It was all very vague, but it seems to be providing the teachers with scripts to follow. It didn't say what happens when the students don't follow the scripts, so I suppose that is left to the imagination.

Actually it's not left to the imagination. Firstly, Direct Instruction is a whole-of-school intervention. Students are divided into lessons based on pre-existing knowledge and how much repetition they need to remember new material. Their placing varies, for example a kid who misses several weeks of school, say due to illness, would be placed in lessons when they came back so they would not have gaps in their knowledge. This is done by all teachers of reading and English language arts being scheduled to teach that subject at the same time, so groups can be formed across classes.

Secondly, the developer of the curriculum recommends coaching as a school implements lessons:

Professional Development and Technical Assistance. Professional development and technical assistance, consisting of training and in-class coaching, are essential elements of Direct Instruction. The developer recommends one week of training in Direct Instruction methods prior to implementation. During the school year, at least four days per month of coaching, observation, and modeling are recommended. In addition, the developer recommends weekly one-hour inservice sessions during which teachers may learn and practice Direct Instruction techniques.

The quantity, quality, pace, and content of professional development vary widely, depending on the contractor. However, as a general rule, the first year of implementation emphasizes training in strategies for assessing and instructing students, a schoolwide discipline program, and a single academic subject or pair of related subjects (usually reading or reading and language arts, for example). During the second year, teachers might be trained in the remainder of the curriculum, as well as more diagnostic and instructional strategies. The third year's training might focus on mastering the basics of Direct Instruction and introducing techniques for "hard-to-teach students." According to the developer, local teachers should be trained to coach and supervise so that after a period of three to five years, schools can be self-sufficient. http://www.aasa.org/issues_and_insights/district_organization/Reform/Approach/direct.htm

From

Coaches/Facilitators
Another feature of the program is the use of in-class coaches for implementation support. The coach periodically monitors each classroom and is available to assist individual teachers with any problems, perhaps taking over a part of the lesson to model pedagogical procedures. In some cases, this role has been filled by an employee of the contractor, retained to help with implementation. In some multi-school implementations within a single district, teachers are released from regular classroom duty, given special training, and assigned to assist one or two schools.
http://jponline.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=31

As for why kids won't follow the script, there are several reasons:
1. The material being presented is too far above the kid's head. So the kid is placed in a lesson earlier in the sequence.
2. The material being presented is too easy for the kid, so he/she is bored. So the kid is placed in a lesson later in the sequence.
3. The kid has some medical problem, like poor eyesight, which either needs to be treated, or accommodation made for.
4. A kid has a question about the subject material. So the teacher answers it. One of the Direct Instruction packages actually teaches kids to ask questions.
5. The kids are misbehaving out of mischief, for reasons I suspect we all remember from school ourselves. So the teacher turns to the coach for assistance, as described above.

That list of five reasons why a student might not be following the script displays a rather limited imagination. In any case, what we seem to have here is placing students in tracks, and purchasing lesson plans from an outside vendor.

Tracking kids is clearly a good idea, though hardly a new one. The trend on this runs through cycles. We are currently at the "throw everyone in the same room" part of the cycle. If this is changing, so much the better.

All this talk of "contractors" does, however, rather tip off why this new New Thing is being pushed.

That list of five reasons why a student might not be following the script displays a rather limited imagination.

So Mr Imaginative Person, don't be coy, what is the list missing?

In any case, what we seem to have here is placing students in tracks, and purchasing lesson plans from an outside vendor.

The important things are:
- the lessons purchased from an outside vendor were field-tested repeatedly on real kids. The developers test things like "what's the best way to teach the idea of 'red'? Do you start off showing a red object, or a non-red object? how about showing two non-red objects that differ only in colour?"
- teachers have tests on which to place kids into tracks based on the kid's preexisting knowledge (so a kid who starts school already knowing their alphabet is placed in a different lesson to a kid who doesn't) and how much repetition the kid needs to learn. And the tracks are small - about 6 to 7 students. Furthermore, students are varied amongst the groups, say a kid misses a couple of weeks of school then they are given the lessons when they get back. This is not traditional tracking.
- the curriculum developers provide support to the teachers and training. Just purchasing lessons plans doesn't seem to work. Teaching is a skilled job. Teaching is a skilled job when using scripts. Actors often use scripts and yet spend time rehearsing plays with the help of a director. Teaching deserves at least equal preparation.

Please, please, no one think that Direct Instruction is a matter of placing students in tracks and purchasing lesson plans from an outside vendor. That's a massive oversimplification of effective teaching that ignores all the significant skills that go into effective teaching.

All this talk of "contractors" does, however, rather tip off why this new New Thing is being pushed.

A) Direct Instruction has been around since the 60s. It's not new.

B) Direct Instruction is being pushed because it shows remarkably good results at teaching disadvantaged kids.

C) Richard, one moment you are criticisng DI because " It didn't say what happens when the students don't follow the scripts, so I suppose that is left to the imagination.". Then I point out that when the students don't follow the scripts, the teachers have coaches to turn to for assistance. So you imply that the idea is only being pushed as contractors get pay. So if teachers aren't supported, then that's a reason to dismiss DI, and if teachers are supported, this is a reason to dismiss DI?

Oh I forgot to add another of the most important ways Direct Instruction differs from "placing students in tracks, and purchasing lesson plans from an outside vendor". Direct Instruction is built around seeking feedback and adjusting lessons on the fly to make sure each kid has mastered every skill. So the teacher is given the tools to know how to adjust the lessons he/she is presenting on the fly.

And the principal is given the tools to spot if a particular teacher is having a problem.

Sorry for forgetting that way.

The break up of New Orleans teacher union had as much to do with getting rid of the Black veteran teachers in the system as anything else. Years ago there were two unions in town--one black and one white. When black teachers sued for membership into the official affiliate, they won and the New Orleans union became one that was predominantly Black. The state doe used Katrina as a way of undermining black authority in the school system. Now I'm not saying that the run of corruption was bad but its convenient to vilify the black union and herald the White choice advocates as saviors of a system that needed a lot before the levees broke.

"So Mr Imaginative Person, don't be coy, what is the list missing?"

Well, we can start with "The kid doesn't give a flying fuck" and go from there.

The source is of my skepticism is that I have heard this song too many times already: an exciting breakthrough in pedagogy that will cure what ails us! A few years later, the old exciting breakthrough in pedagogy is forgotten, and replaced with a new (or, more often, recycled) one.

Does this mean that Direct Instruction isn't the real deal? No, of course not. But it does suggest that we should hold off on the confetti and balloons, and on spending huge amounts of money.

Speaking of money, I have no problem with doing business with people who are seeking to turn a profit. I do have a problem when how they plan on making this profit is disguised. The first link posted was to an academic website. This subsequently morphed into discussions of contractors. I see now that one of the later links is from "JP Associates," which I assume is a for-profit business.

There is nothing inherently wrong with this being a product with a sales pitch. That doesn't mean it isn't a good product. But the fact of the sales pitch being a sales pitch should come first.

"The top predictors of academic outcomes are 1)parental involvement, 2)parental occupation and income, and 3) neighborhood composition."

Those problems can be addressed with progressive Gov't programs that would help the average American live more comfortably, have more spare time and live in decent neighborhoods. Some possible programs: free (or heavily subsidized) college educations, universal health care, investment in urban infrastructure, fair trade policies and (hey, full circle!) strong unions.

Well, we can start with "The kid doesn't give a flying fuck" and go from there.
I am surprised that you don't remember this from school yourself, I thought this option was covered by my number 5.

Ah, there's a "nasty game" for those cases. It's called the "Teacher-Me" game. It requires some acting skills from the teacher.

How it basically works is that the teacher sets things up so that if the kid doesn't do the work, the teacher "wins". Eg, with younger kids, the teacher may have a game whereby they ask the kids a question (a question that the kids can get right). If the kids answer it correctly, they get a lolly. If they don't, the teacher gets a lolly. And the teacher acts really really happy that the kids couldn't/didn't do it, and eats the lolly with great relish, and tells the kids something like "I knew you couldn't beat me, I'm the best at this game". When the kids do answer the question right, the teacher acts surprised, and pretends to be upset at losing, and "sulks" over having to give the kids their lollies. Too many wins, and the teacher, who has already established the character of a bad loser, changes the rules, telling the kids that definitely "this time I will win" (while of course making sure that the new rules require kids to do things that they can do, or can quickly figure out).
It makes sense to reward the kids as a whole, since even if one kid doesn't care about beating the teacher, peer pressure will play its role.

I understand the rewards and the acting is more subtle for older kids. I suspect that as kids get older and older more and more of them will see through this trick, but hey, if we can trick kids into learning how to read and how to do maths at an early age, then those are skills that will see them set for life, even if they fail to take full advantage of, say, their high school English classes.

The source is of my skepticism is that I have heard this song too many times already: an exciting breakthrough in pedagogy that will cure what ails us! A few years later, the old exciting breakthrough in pedagogy is forgotten, and replaced with a new (or, more often, recycled) one.

It's not an exciting breakthrough. It's the result of a lot of boring testing, improvement, field-testing, improvement, re-testing etc. That's why I'm so excited about it, it looks like someone has gotten serious not about an exciting breakthrough but about all the dull boring work of testing something and getting it to work well.

Speaking of money, I have no problem with doing business with people who are seeking to turn a profit. I do have a problem when how they plan on making this profit is disguised.

I think what's going on is different people and different sources. Direct Instruction was part of the Project Followthrough and has prompted a lot of academic work. And a lot of people are interested in good quality schooling for kids. I don't have any financial interest in Direct Instruction, so I never thought of presenting this as a sales-pitch with a view to making money, I thought of it as making an argument for Direct Instruction. Please don't reject Direct Instruction as a curriculum because of this.<