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By request: dating games

27 Jun 2008 07:55 am

Reader Esther asks me what I think about this. I guess I think of it the way I think of The Rules. Does it work? Sure, sexual manipulation often works; pick your favorite economic or neurobiological model, it will probably be effective.

I had a friend in college who was an A1 expert at manipulating men (still was, the last time I saw her; she was married and nonetheless had half a dozen men fighting to bring her drinks and light her cigarette even though as she herself once said, "On a very good day, I'm an 8.") I never really understood the point.

There's a phase most women probably go through in high school or college, when they realize that they have extraordinary power to get men to do things, and they see how many people they can get to chase them at once. Most of us, though, I think quickly realize how pointless it is. There's something terribly lonely about interacting with someone when you know what's really going on, and they don't.

Men go through the phase a little later, but the result is the same: anyone worth dating soon leaves it. Dating three or four men at a time isn't fun for more than a few months; it's exhausting. Of course, I have a high need for personal time and few people have ever described me as "enigmatic".

Like most women in New York, I've dated guys who thought that they were major players. Luckily for me, I got out early, because the average actual amusement to be had in the company of such a man is about 36 hours. (Cumulative, and get your minds out of the gutter, please.) The performance is briefly fascinating, and then you realize that there is much better theater to be had Off Broadway, where they won't waste hours of your time and lip gloss.

If you want casual sex, why go to so much trouble? It's freely available in most urban bars; what's the great need to take it from someone who doesn't really want to give it to you?

In a cosmic sense, the punishment for getting stuck in permanent adolescence is not, unfortunately, some theatrical denouement; it's that you are someone with the emotional life of a teenager. They may never realize what they are missing. Mostly, they do, of course, and it's sort of tragic to watch. They gain weight, the face sags (or slowly tightens into skeletal thinness), the men's hair erodes, jobs make it harder to keep up with wardrobes and bands. If they catch themselves in time and marry, their marriages are brittle and unsatisfying--it's hardly surprising that one of the authors of The Rules got divorced not long after publishing the book.

The awkwardest experience in the entire world is being macked on by a guy who is just past it, but hasn't yet gotten the message. It always makes me think of Mr. Skeffington, which gives me the cold crawlies.

Sadly, of course, not everyone gets out early, and a lot of innocent, if silly, people get caught up in these games. All I can say is, only suckers play games where they don't quite understand the rules and the percentage seems to be running strongly to the house. If you suspect you're the sucker, no matter how much fun you think you're having, it's time to cash out your chips and close your house account.

Comments (66)

But I like the gutter. It's nice and comfy here.

Roissy's blog is funny, and while it can be outrageous at times you have to keep in mind that it's designed to outrage. Besides, it provides a convenient place for me to toss in totally off-topic comments concerning my, er, fetish (what can I say, the Bald Eagle look is disgusting and pedophilic).


With respect to casual sex, Roissy does often make a very good point, one which may people overlook. As you point out, casual sex is indeed "freely available in most urban bars" - to women. There is perhaps no other aspect of the whole dating and relationship field in which the balance of power between the sexes is so skewed. Nearly any woman under age 50 (or even older), who is not unspeakably obese or unattractive, can have casual sex any time she wants, merely by going to a bar or nightclub and being receptive to the first man who hits on her. Of course there may be some risks involved, and depending upon what the woman has to offer the men may be of low quality, but at least the opportunity exists. Please note that I'm in no way implying that most women would do something of this sort, instead I'm speaking hypothetically.

Now, most non-Alpha men will have no such easy access to casual sex. Hitting on women in bars and nightclubs doesn't always work because they're competing with other men. Of course a man can go to a massage parlor or call an escort service, but that's expensive, illegal, and potentially dangerous.

It is this mismatch in access to casual sex that creates fertile (so to speak) ground for bloggers like Roissy.

I was on Oprah with the "Rules" women (I was on to present the male view, being apparently the only man in the US who had the book, and having commented on it in my newspaper column) and took a limo with them to the studio. "Unpleasant" is about the most polite word I would for either of them, although once you meet them you understand why they would write such a book and subscribe to such an ethos.

But yes, you've hit the nail on the head: After a certain point you realize that the Rule Girls and the Tucker Maxes of the world just about deserve each other, and you deserve better, and you go to find more congenial company and leave them to their games.

Women use me? Never... Well at least I'd hope not. The problem with games and rules, isn't what happens when its caught right away. Its the after effects. Its the reason a friend's car turned into an arson investigation.

I got sick of "Rules Girls" and just avoided them and their manipulation. It tells you a lot that I did so at the lowest ebb of my dating life.

Penn and Teller brilliant skewered the Rules and Men are From Mars...

One of my least favorite manipulative games, that I fell for once and ignored thereafter was the old "oh, you want to go out? I'd like to but call me back on Friday and I'll let you know if I can" which translated to "well, I'll let you buy me dinner if nothing better comes along". Hell with that.

Dear god, the bar scene got lame(r) after that The Game book came out, about using pseudo-psychology to get women into bed. The only thing worse than douchebags at the bar is douchebags at the bar doing magic tricks and talking about BF Skinner.

Ok, when I first read the title of this post I thought it was going to be about dating SIMS, the (mostly Japanese) games where the player goes around interacting with several female characters and trying to hook up with one (or more) of them. Wikipedia has a decent overview:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_sims

I would be FASCINATED to hear your thoughts on those dating games.

I went on a date with an investment banker once in London. Within 10 minutes of meeting up, he had "casually" mentioned both the size of his bonus and what he paid in rent for his flat. Then he gave me--I swear to god--finger guns.

As he segued effortlessly into his cocaine conviction, I realized that I was now on a post-modern irony date, just hanging around to see what this guy was going to say next. He didn't disappoint, but I could only listen for about an hour before I had to cut him and his 8 pound sports watch loose. I-bankers are the lowest form of life.

casual sex is freely available to most men, as long as they share an attribute with successful salesmen; a rhino-tough hide which is impervious to feeling pain from rejection. I've been around such salesmen who take the same approach to acquring sex; constant prospecting followed by an uninhibited request for the order. After that, it is just a numbers game and a matter of time, and it ALWAYS works, for salesmen and non-salesmen alike.

I have the hide, but not the tolerance for boredom, and prospecting is the most excruciatingly boring part of selling. I'll do it for large sums of money for limited periods of time, but that's it. Sex with people you don't care about is overrated.

Dear god, the bar scene got lame(r) after that The Game book came out, about using pseudo-psychology to get women into bed. The only thing worse than douchebags at the bar is douchebags at the bar doing magic tricks and talking about BF Skinner.

My goodness, I agree completely but almost feel like I should disagree just because it's Mugab... err Freddie. (j/k)

Drew, that does indeed sound like a miserable date. I'd say, though, that I don't think it's i-bankers in particular but over-compensating, insecure losers that are the lowest form of dating life. (Lower, even, than insecure losers who are not over-compensating.) However, there may well be a higher proportion of such people among i-bankers than most other professions. As Megan might say, a thesis is waiting to be written...

"Cocaine conviction" as in a criminal prosecution, or as in his sincere, committed belief in cocaine? Although either might make a good story, I suppose.

It seems to me that the sad aspect of such a date is the fact that his approach must work on some percentage of women, or else he wouldn't use it, right? Yuck.

It seems to me that the sad aspect of such a date is the fact that his approach must work on some percentage of women, or else he wouldn't use it, right? Yuck.

That would be the percentage whose primary interest in the chap involves seeing "sparkle, sparkle" on every finger, earlobe, and neck said women possess, with an indefinite reserve of same stored away in the bank account.

Well said. The game is indeed hollow.

I agree with the above comments re. the relative availability of casual sex for men and women. A lot of women just don't realize how difficult this is for guys---particularly guys who weren't or aren't Alphas, and don't have cast-iron rhino hides about rejection.

For an interesting perspective on dating, try Norah Vincent's Self-Made Man, about her experiences pretending to be a man (She's not a transsexual, but rather disguised herself as a man in order to write a travelogue of a different universe).

As for "The Game," I was a lousy player, so I got out 13(!) years ago.

Thanks for taking this on. Ala "the game" I had an ulterior motive; I was hoping the troglodytes over there would find out and start a blog war. But so far it's just been Peter and his pilosebaceous obsession.

But so far it's just been Peter and his pilosebaceous obsession.

I had to look up that word:
(anatomy) Pertaining to the hair follicles and sebaceous glands, as the pilosebaceous apparatus, comprising the hair follicle and its attached gland.

I'm really only concerned with the hair follicles. The sebaceous glands, not so much.

Early thirties. Worked as an engineer, now a grad student. Read The Atlantic when I was a teen, The Economist in my early twenties, currently reading Herodotus. Travelled. Average looks, full head of hair. And yet I'm alone.

The chief reason is certainly that I put career ahead of romance through my twenties, working long hours at a job with few females and moving from city to city. Nevertheless, there are many others who have slipped through the cracks of the modern dating scene. It's not easy for a man to find casual sex (without paying), but it can be even harder to find a complementary mate. I wish I could cash out my chips and leave the game; instead, my reluctant conclusion is that I have to "be more alpha" to attract the kind of woman I'd like to marry.

Thanks, Peter. Saved me a few seconds.

Dear Beta's Lament,

Here's the truth: I've never met a decent guy that had too much trouble finding a girlfriend. My single male friends have either 1. too high opinions of themselves, 2. too lazy to bother trying to date, or 3. are kind of assholes. Though, honestly the same goes of the single girls I know. Basically, it's not that hard, really. Get over yourself.

I learned in the 10th grade that guys would have sex with anything warm and wet when I met a girl who was returning to school after having a child. This girl was basically a female Jabba the Hut and some dude made a baby with her. It was then I realized that the massive amount of "how to catch a man" tripe propagated by Cosmo and Seventeen was just BS designed to make women think they had to spend tons of money on fashion and beauty products to attract any male attention, when really all they need are identifiable female features. Granted, I'm sure Ms. Jabba's baby daddy was probably a troll, but still. The point is that any woman can get a man.

I also think that any man can get a woman, provided he isn't creepy. I don't know about Megan, but I have a soft spot for nerds. Nearly every boy I hooked up with in high school told me I was the first girl he'd kissed. But funny thing was, as soon as we'd stop hooking up, those guys would get new girlfriends immediately. It was as if other girls wanted these guys because I'd broken them in and shown that they were worth a second look. Similarly, my husband reports that once we got married, his cache with women went way up (he's always been popular with the ladies, though). It's as if the wedding ring is an aphrodesiac.

what's the great need to take it from someone who doesn't really want to give it to you?

It's all about winning. That makes it rough on those who aren't there to play a game.

Thanks Holly. What I really needed was for someone to take a knock at my self-esteem.

But I would like to know where to find other nerd-loving girls like Christina?

Beta,

There are plenty of plain-looking (but not fat) women out there. Everyone is a wrinkled saggy mess at 70, and the only way to make it that far with someone is to share a connection deeper than physical attraction. If you need help in the beginning, watch some porn before you do the deed.

I learned in the 10th grade that guys would have sex with anything warm and wet when I met a girl who was returning to school after having a child. This girl was basically a female Jabba the Hut and some dude made a baby with her.

Some Alpha men who normally have little trouble scoring with quality women actually take pride in occasional "dumspter diving" (to use a Roissy term). No, I have no idea why.

--

I also think that any man can get a woman, provided he isn't creepy. I don't know about Megan, but I have a soft spot for nerds.

All well and good, but the trouble is that some women consider nerds to be creepy.

B's L: "where to find other nerd-loving girls...?"

In my long and varied experience, they are found in a) cities, and b) small towns.

If you insist on dating women who refuse to date men like you, you're probably S.O.L.

Get out of the house, talk to people, don't be too eager, etc. This stuff is reasonably well understood.

There's something terribly lonely about interacting with someone when you know what's really going on, and they don't.

Megan - With apologies for possible naïveté ... I think that is exceptionally profound. Thank you.

"Average looks, full head of hair."

That's a weird way of describing yourself. Are you out of shape?

A full head of hair is less appealing than 1) good body 2) bald but good looks.

Beta's Lament,

Try online dating. I used to use Match.com and met several very nice women. Though I haven't used it myself, I have heard only good things about E-harmony.com, and know more than one couple that met through that service and are now married.

One of the best ways to gain practice with women (at least out of the sack) is speed dating. This also helps in other areas of life, such as schmoozing at networking events, establishing a rapport early in an interview, etc.

Or you can just go the gym and get a (better than average) body and watch women fawn all over you. If you don't like the gym though I would suggest the former.

Some Alpha men who normally have little trouble scoring with quality women actually take pride in occasional "dumspter diving" (to use a Roissy term). No, I have no idea why.

Because they were horny and alone at 1:00am, and the girl was probably his go to in that situation. An ugly girl is much more likely to be "available" to a drunk guy over the phone at 1:00 am.

The one thing about nerds is that some are out of shape. I will note that I have plenty of nerdy friends who are in-shape but they don't have troubles meeting women. In-shape doesn't mean hitting the gym, but it does mean having a hobby that gets you out of the house and moving on a regular basis.

Trouble meeting women?
Join a church, go to grad school, take an evening class in just about anything non-technical, do some volunteer work. You won't necessarily meet single women at all of these, but you are likely to meet married women who would be happy to introduce a presentable, employed single man to their single woman friends, nieces, neighbors etc.

The Rules was pretty crazy, but the blog post seemed to just amount to "be cute, don't be slutty, do nice things for the guy." That doesn't sound that horrid to me, except maybe the cute part which is a bit shallow, as long as it's mutual. Meaning the guy is willing to do things for you too, doesn't sleep around, and tries to be kind.

As for guys getting girls I think a part of their complaint amounts to "I can't get the women I want." I know a guy who is still unmarried in his 40s, but his standards were absurdly high. I don't personally believe in settling when it comes to the important things, but he felt like he should get a woman much more attractive and talented than he ever was. From what I've seen there's plenty of women with psychological problems, drug problems, who hate themselves, or who are out for revenge on someone that would be willing to use (or be used) by even an average man for casual sex. Generally I think men who want this casual sex stuff would either have enough ethics to feel this is exploitative or would just want someone less likely to go crazy.

Beta's Lament, read the following:

Five Geek Social Fallacies

Why "Nice Guys" Suck and Women Don't Want You

I really wish I knew that stuff when I was 15, or even 25.

I'm a frequent commenter on this site. I tried eHarmony and I got married with one of my matches. We're going on 2.5 years of marriage and just had our first baby. I'm crazy about my wife.

Both of us are introverts, so I think the text-heavy courting was helpful in getting things moving. eHarmony is good for just the right people (steady job, relative lifestyle conservatives) who are looking for the same thing: long-term relationship or marriage.

If settling down and marrying a nice churchgoing guy or gal isn't your thing, then eHarmony is probably not the right thing for you.

Beta, from what you say it doesn't sound like you're abnormal. Just possibly a bit shy and, also perhaps, picky. So what? Most women I know are similarly picky. As they should be. Partnering is tough these days. Such high expectations all around. My cure for you (and me and any other singles, female as well as male) is to find some way to have fun out in public. Try improv classes. They're a way to play. Sex starts in the imagination. So does romance. The more you can get yourself in social situations where the stakes are less desperate, where you don't mind looking less than sparkling... all the better. I never liked hanging at bars as I didn't watch sports or make small talk. But for whatever reason, I wanted to hang with people who do hang at bars. Certain ones anyway. And so I became a bartender (started as a ice fetch, glass washing barback), giving me something to do. I'm neither striking (indeed all the other bartenders - way taller than me, were given better schedules) but ultimately I started having a really good time. Because regulars liked me, counted on me, and from my perspective, it seemed like what women loved was being able to trust a man and be playful as well. Most figures in authority (like a bartender) are accountable which relaxed female customers. And so it was easy to flirt. Mainly because they'd always start it. And once a woman invites you in, life is easy. It's opening the door that can be testy. Maybe try to get a part time gig at a bar - but make it a woman-friendly place, of course. Or teach a course. Again, the authority counts. Again, it seems to me to be about accountable power. So far as "getting over yourself," that comment sounded like it came from someone a bit bitter, but it had a bit of truth. The "self" that you need to get away is that self-castigating voice which probably sounds a lot like the sharp tongued person who tossed that out there. Forget her and that voice in your head, best you can. Life is short. Find a way to enjoy it.

Just two comments, and those about things already mentioned. For guys, it's volume, volume, volume. Ask, and ask frequently. Yeah, when you ask for the very first time, the long odds are that you'll get shot down, and it can be pretty tough. That's what liquor is for. But you know, the second time is not as bad as the first, and by the seventh or eighth time you get rejected, it really isn't that big a deal, provided you don't vest so much of your self esteem in the answer.

The second thing is, I hear some of my younger colleagues complain that 'they can't get dates', by which they really mean, they can't interest a '10' woman when they're only a '4', and worse, they want the woman to ask them out. It just doesn't work that way. No, girls aren't really all that interested in that new sheave cohomology you've cooked up that might actually make it into a major mag, and they really don't think that your super-duper IQ and encyclopediac knowledge of sf and game hacks is really bringing all that much to the table.

"...casual sex is freely available to most men, as long as they share an attribute with successful salesmen..."

Geesh, this just brought to memory the biography of the short story writer John Cheever (who was from my home town, I later found out we had the same doctor and I used to drink in the same local bar as him at different hours ... but I digress).

The guy was omniver-hypersexual. He got everything of every description, including some of the most beautiful women in Hollywood, beautiful European women in both west and east, you name 'em.

He looked like a toad, and most of his life he was broke. He got fame and some money late in life, but for most of his life he was just a semi-starving writer who looked like a toad.

His biographer asked the actress Hope Lange, who was a true beauty in her day, why she took Cheever as a lover.

She said: "He just kept asking."

No, girls aren't really all that interested in that new sheave cohomology you've cooked up that might actually make it into a major mag, and they really don't think that your super-duper IQ and encyclopediac knowledge of sf and game hacks is really bringing all that much to the table.

It's not merely a matter of being interesting in things that generally don't interest women. Men who are complete sports nuts seldom have trouble finding women even though most women don't share the same level of interest in sports. You won't find many NFL season ticket holders who go home unsuccessfully from the singles bars on Saturday nights. The same holds true for men who are seriously into other "guy stuff" things, for example cars, hunting and fishing, manual crafts such as woodworking, and so on. Women may not share their interests, but they do okay with women.

What women do not tolerate, however, are men who are interested in things that appeal mostly to men yet are not viewed as fully masculine: science fiction, fantasy, D&D and other RPG's, anime, comic book collecting, even military history. Men who are into these things are the sort of men who, to put it crudely, cannot get laid to save their lives, and whose only hope for marriage lies in mail-order bride catalogs.

But Jim, Cheever was a great writer, which many women would find attractive, and I think he was already pretty well known when he was in his thirties. Maybe Beta's Lament should find some prep school Greek teacher to read Heredotus with. They're often surprisingly cute.

Peter:
All well and good, but the trouble is that some women consider nerds to be creepy.

Right. "Creepy" is more often than not just a slur against men with subpar social skills.

"Men who are into these things are the sort of men who, to put it crudely, cannot get laid to save their lives, and whose only hope for marriage lies in mail-order bride catalogs." Peter

TR: Considering my father I know right there this isn't true. I imagine many people who comment or lurk here have nerdy fathers.

However my Dad, at the time he married anyway, was successful. He was some kind of business executive. He also had fairly strong opinions about things people in general find respectable.

And besides that one of the rare times I got interest from women was when I submitted a story to an SF magazine. SF writers get more action than I think you'd expect. In part this might be because they're dealing with women who may have no one to talk to about this interest.

I guess I'm saying if you are a military history geek or a SF geek you actually can get a woman. You just need to be making a good living and go to the right places. In the case of history some kind of conference and in the case of SF some kind of Fantasy convention perhaps. (Granted I'm an SFer who doesn't like Fantasy, but Fantasy does have more women than SF.) It also helps if you're funny and at least have a nice face.

For Beta: I tend to run with a crowd of science- and computer-geeks, and I was one of the few women at my engineering-oriented college. I met my husband at a gaming club, and we're both military-history, SF, beer, and computer enthusiasts. (I sometimes feel like I live in an xkcd comic, which is a good thing.) So, OK, I'm atypical, but I also have a front-row seat on male geek culture. :)

For these purposes, I'm construing "geek" broadly: technical profession, interest in traditional geek hobbies such as graphic novels or open-source programming, etc. If the "Portrait of J. Random Hacker" sounds like you, read on.

Lots of guy-geeks do just fine in dating; most of my male geek friends are married. Single geeks sometimes have significant personal issues they don't seem to want to correct (stinking to high heaven for example). Can't do much for that.

More common, though, is what I'd tend to call a very binary approach to women, with surprisingly little empathy. They are fine dealing with she-geeks who are just part of their social crowd, but once they start viewing a woman as a potential date, it's as if they forget everything they know about just dealing with people in general.

Some of these guys treat dating like some sort of expedition into unknown territory, or a video game. They identify the location of the female in question, gear up, and start running down a checklist of Things Guys Do To Get Women. I recall a commenter here who wanted a sort of ruleset that would result in him getting laid, which reminded me very much of this sort of thing.

These guys are also often kind of shy, so the normal "warmup" steps take place in the guy's head. The first sign a woman has of his interest is a dozen roses and an invitation to dinner at a good restaurant---which is a Code Red danger signal to almost any chick. The same guy would never meet a new male acquaintance and offer to drop $150 to take him out to dinner.

Now yeah, the player guys Megan describes also treat women differently from the way they treat men...but they have a different "chick ruleset". It works initially with some women, but they have problems transititioning into longer-term relationships.

The other problem, especially with geeks in their thirties and forties, is that a lot of them make good money and have a pretty comfortable life: decent place to live, LAN parties all weekend, takeout Chinese whenever you want it, nice car, great television. Adapting to another person is less comfortable and can feel like game-playing.

beta -

My advice? If you can swing it, go live in China for a 6 months to a year. The girls there are very attractive, intelligence is more highly valued in that culture, and you will be a novelty that at least some women will be very much interested in. And of course you'll seem rich, though being rich in China means owning a car. Also, learning a new language or culture is something that is both intellectual and social and there will be a lot of girls who want to learn English from you while you learn Chinese from them. Unless you're in a big city like Shanghai or Beijing (Nanjing is a great location)
you'll be as popular as a traveler in a small town.

I'm a bit of a geek myself. I spent a semester teaching in China. My confidence and life was very much improved afterwards.

Beta, given all the advice you've been given, you're either running with the wolves or hiding under your bed. Actually, maybe you're in between, underneath someone else's bed. Regardless, maybe you should start a blog devoted to the topic. Beta Won't Break. Or some derivation. You sound like an articulate guy. And you'll already have a bunch of readers. You can invite Holly to do a point/counter point with you. I'd click in for that.

There is one aspect of the game that does involve a double standard and, I think, makes it more fun for a certain kind of man than for a woman.

It is fun to chase women whether you get them into bed or not. The reason is there is a built in "no" in most women and there is a challenge getting beyond it.

For women there's just no challenge in chasing guys I'm thinking.

JJV:
The analogous game played by women is seeing what they can get men to do by leading them on.

"But Jim, Cheever was a great writer, which many women would find attractive, and I think he was already pretty well known when he was in his thirties."

Cheever was a long way from being a famous great writer until a long time after his 30s. What notoriety he had in the world of the short story, which is not a big world.

Well after his 30s he was not only physically unattractive and strapped for cash, but also very visibly married with kids and a bad alcoholic -- not a cute-and- entertaining one.

Now I don't know for sure, one could ask Megan or the other women here, but I'd imagine that "not-good-looking, no money, married with kids, and a bad alcoholic" generally is not the male formula for high sexual attractiveness, even for a good writer of short stories.

Yet Cheever was notoriously omniver-hypersexual and successful at it, "scoring" all kinds of women from movie stars on, men (all kinds), and from the tales one hears of him it's easy to imagine mannequins and other inanimate objects, animals, and if he'd been picked up by space aliens for anal probing he'd probably have turned the tables on them. (His rep inspired "Seinfeld" episodes after he was dead.)

As to how he did it, I only repeat what Ms Lange said: "He kept asking". Which seemed to fit the earlier comment about the traits of a salesman.

We all live within our self-imposed limitations. It's no deep insight that "if you don't ask you don't get" regarding all kinds of things in life, and that people have all kinds of reasons for not asking. In my student years and 20s I was no sober monk, but years later when I was "safely" married with kids (it's kids that make one "safe", not marriage) and went out to lunch with similarly now "safe" women I knew from those days, more than one told me "you know, back then, if you'd asked...". Huh? I hadn't asked because I'd judged them all "no chance". We're all dumber than we think.

Anyhow, as to "the game" and all that, I think the ability to manipulate people is a just skill, like a tool, neutral by itself. Probably better to have than not, like most skills, but what you do with it is up to you. If you use the skill to lift people when they are down they'll think you are wonderful. Don't confuse the skill with the motive behind it.

I'd love to know the great people-manipulation techniques out there -- though at my stage of life, "game" skills for hitting on chicks would only lead to me chld-support payments I can't afford.

I'd much rather have Derren Brown-type skills to manipulate people to want to give me their wallets and let me pay for jewelry with blank pieces of paper. If I had those skills I'd use them only for good, I swear!

"For women there's just no challenge in chasing guys I'm thinking." jjv

TR: It's been speculated that this is part of why the character of "Spock" got so many adoring, and occasionally creepy, female fan letters. He was rational and not into sex most of the time. Then when he was he was all in frenzy.

Also I believe many nineteenth century romance type novels involved a man who was resistant for some reason. He could be disfigured, married, a priest, a recluse, etc. Although I think this was more appealing to women in theory than practice. I don't think there was ever a time women just threw themselves at deformed guys or looked in the forests for hermits to bed.

"He kept asking"

TR: Maybe, but being a writer he might've been able to ask in a more appealing way than your average schmoe. Also married alcoholics I think can be attractive to some women. ("Oh he's a tortured artistic soul trapped in a loveless marriage..,blah blah blah")

First of all Peter nails it with his first comment. The average man finds it much harder to get casual sex (or even non-casual sex) than the average woman. Most women either don't understand or don't appreciate this, which is why they say stuff like “Anyone can get laid" when what they mean is "any WOMAN can get laid" Its harder- considerably harder- for men- which is why escort services exist.
Forgive me, but a lot of the advice to beta and others seems to come right out of the "Chicken Soup for the Soul" can. Get out there and meet people? Just be yourself and boldly ask women out?
Well, what if he is unusually shy or unusually unattractive to women?
Telling an unusually shy person to " get out there" won't work- by definition, such people find it painful to go out and meet people and is likely to experience being turned down as a painful humiliation. If he is unusually unattractive to woman (e.g., fat), then asking out a lot of women will just result in a world of rejection and hurt for him. Unattractive men don't become more attractive to women just because they are willing to boldly ask women out- quite the contrary. If beta is unusually shy, then he may need psychological counseling and the constant encouragement of friends to overcome that. If he is unusually unattractive to woman, then he will have to slowly and painfully raise his attractiveness quotient. He will either he will have to change physically (hit the gym, go on a diet) or become much more financially successful. I know a guy who is skinny, 5’ 2”, and wears glasses. Some years ago he couldn’t buy a date in college; even though he was a sweet, gentle, nerdy guy. Now he is happily married. In between, he graduated from a top college with an electric engineering degree, got a job at IBM, and bought a BMW. Same guy, different trimmings.
Raising your attractiveness quotient is the optimal, long term solution. Of course, it’s a lot like eating nothing but spinach for a year. Its good for you, it has good long term benefits, but it isn’t fun. Till then, Mr. Unattractive Guy can either practice spiritual discipline and remain celibate, or try the Erotic Services section of Craigslist. Hey, it’s an option, illegal and costly though it may be.

I never really understood the point....

Most of us, though, I think quickly realize how pointless it is. There's something terribly lonely about interacting with someone when you know what's really going on, and they don't.

Dating three or four men at a time isn't fun for more than a few months; it's exhausting.

Of course, I have a high need for personal time and few people have ever described me as "enigmatic".

Luckily for me, I got out early, because the average actual amusement to be had in the company of such a man is about 36 hours. (Cumulative, and get your minds out of the gutter, please.) The performance is briefly fascinating, and then you realize that there is much better theater to be had Off Broadway, where they won't waste hours of your time and lip gloss.


If you want casual sex, why go to so much trouble? It's freely available in most urban bars; what's the great need to take it from someone who doesn't really want to give it to you?

In between bouts of labor saving, feeling lonely, getting your 'need[ed] personal time', amusing yourself, being 'fascinated' with 'the performance', and canoodling with strangers you have met in bars, you might actually reflect on the ethical dimension of using people.

"Its harder- considerably harder- for men- which is why escort services exist."

I kind of don't think so. I think this is just a statement to make Johns feel better about themselves and also to blame women for the fact they're a loser.

Women trend toward an average more than men. Men have rates of perversion, mental deficiency, and genetic ailment generally greater than women's. They also want women more attractive than they can reasonably expect.

So men get escorts because they want to show up with a woman more attractive than they can get on their own or because they want a woman who will do things an average woman wouldn't. (It doesn't have to be just sexual, it can involve making them look good or being obedient in a way other women might find degrading)

Granted many women can get their guy to do whatever they want, but in my general experience this is more a sitcom fantasy than a reality. If the woman constantly demands he goes to places he finds boring or have a threesome with her poker buddy Vinnie then most guys I think are perfectly willing to bolt. (Well on the second that wouldn't work if they're "into" that sort of thing)

"Its harder- considerably harder- for men- which is why escort services exist."
I kind of don't think so. I think this is just a statement to make Johns feel better about themselves and also to blame women for the fact they're a loser.
Men have rates of perversion, mental deficiency, and genetic ailment generally greater than women's.
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Thomas, I think in some weird way, like Niel LaButte, you're flattering yourself and your species. Just a hunch off that last amped-up set of charges.

More specifically, if you really think women have no tougher time "just getting laid," you're living in an alternative universe. Most men I know, if a woman smiled at them, looked relatively sane, and welcomed them to her bed, if they didn't go, they'd curse themselves for the next week. I'm not even talking particularly attractive women. Give a man an average looking lady who is beckoning, and just the imagined possibilities around such opportunity would drive most men wild.

It would take a very, very attractive guy to send most women into a similar tailspin. "Attractive" being wide open to possibility - from looks to money to seduction skills.

So far as prostitution, everyone knows it's neither a trivial economy nor a new one. Not sure how you're defining losers... so you may be right in your own definition of why men go to them... but my sense is they're filling a large range of needs. Some of them are fairly pedestrian (customers who just want to feel someone's body next to them, or to talk in bed naked with someone who accepts them) to more disturbing things.

Just as this country has steadily seen more instances of women finding younger partners - which in its ideal form looks like Demi Moore and her beau, in its more raunchy form shows up in a whole spate of teenage guys being hit on by older teachers - as women get more power, ironically they too may end up going to male prositutes. For all the complex reasons men go to female prostitutes, where sex is often just the excuse. More it's to get some specific act or gesture, which may be something society deems as perverse, or just may be something that person feels overwhelmed by to the point where sharing it with anyone except a prostitute terrifies them.

J: there are male prostitutes in Japan already.

I'm glad so many out there have had positive experiences with online dating. Mine was that women lie about EVERYTHING in their profile.

There are a lot of shy, nerdy girls out there for the shy, nerdy guys, but too many of the guys believe in the reverse Cinderella and think they deserve Uma Thurman, not Janeane Garofalo. I think the emphasis on self-esteem in our schools for the last 25 years has created a generation that can't take rejection well, making it that much harder to climb back up on that horse.

The Game advice is wasted on the shy, nerdy guys because it's such an effort for them to fake the social veneer that seems to come more naturally to non-tech types. Maybe Douglas Coupland has been right all along and most tech guys are high-functioning autistics.

The bottom line, the big secret, the ultimate answer to the question of life, the universe, and everything is this: self-confidence.

Sounds cliche, sounds too easy but it's true and a lot harder than you'd imagine because it demands being comfortable in your own skin. When you like yourself, you project it and that's attractive whether you're a guy or a girl.

and think they deserve Uma Thurman, not Janeane Garofalo

What's wrong with Janeane Garofalo?

Where do men find girls who like nerds? Well since women use their relationships with their dads as templates for their future relationships with men, the answer is, look for girls with nerdy dads.

I think many people are confusing my comment earlier. I said I have a soft spot for nerds, not geeks. Though those two labels can apply to the same person, they don't always.

Why the distiction matters is why lots of geeks don't get laid.

My dad was a major nerd. He was rail skinny and always wore big glasses. He was opposed to adopting anything trendy, be it clothing, slang, cars, politics, whatever. He was into all kinds of science and public policy. He loved music, airplanes, and cars. He was an inventor and revelled in technology and read more periodicals than most people can think of. He also had 3 wives (each one younger than the next) and 13 children (that we know of). In addition to that EVERY mother of any of my friends (or the friends of my siblings) was entranced by him. When he was an 85 year old sickly dude women 30 years old thought he was amazing. It really helped that his vast array of interests allowed him to talk at length with women about their interests. He would frequently clip articles for them about their interests, further showing how attentive he was during their previous conversations.

What didn't he do? Games. He had a saying, "life is a game, and I play to win." He did not play games, be they card games, board games, video games, whatever. Hell, he didn't even read fiction once he left school! He was so busy engaging with reality that he had neither the time, nor the interest in immersing himself in fantasy. So you know what he wasn't doing Saturday nights? Hanging out with a bunch of geeks playing some silly, inconsquential RPG.

Why does this matter? Because the vast majority of women want life mates. Life mates have to handle the real world with kids, jobs, neighbors, in-laws, bills, vacations, long conversations, long silences, catastrophes, and everything else. You know what loves of graphic novels, RPGs, LAN parties, D&D, and SF signal? "I'm not interested in living in the real world, because my imagination is so much better. So good luck disciplining Junior or having a dinner party with the neighbors, I'll be down in the basement playing World of Warcraft." Unless you can find the .0001% of women who are into that stuff, your odds of finding lasting love are slim to none.

Do not misconstrue this to mean that these hobbies are always bad. They are not, as long as they don't define your existence. But if you call yourself a geek because you are so into this stuff, then I hope you enjoy masterbating.

Because the vast majority of women want life mates

You know, sometimes at the tail end of one of these now long dead threads, in a very terse phrase, someone really captures an important essence of the previous 58 inches of posts that no one else got close to saying as well.

Actually Gene, Christina's statement is indicative of a quite contemporary phenomenon, obnoxiously prescriptive in matters of taste in the context of a general indifference to moral norms.

No, girls aren't really all that interested in that new sheave cohomology you've cooked up that might actually make it into a major mag, and they really don't think that your super-duper IQ and encyclopediac knowledge of sf and game hacks is really bringing all that much to the table.


Posted by ScentOfViolets | June 28, 2008 12:18 AM

..........................

Where did you hear that? Rejected someone who was actually well into something intelligent, on the basis of his incapability to entertain? No wonder the whole nation is going down in certain much needed skill, to put it euphemistically.

By the way sheaf cohomology is not new, no one is "cooking" it up "now" and it won't make it into mags, only some in more or less prestigious professional journals.

As for the poor sap who used that - he couldn't find someone who could comprehend what he said, not because intelligent women of that calibre don't exist, but because your "mags" are busy scaring young girls into being dumbed down.

No, girls aren't really all that interested in that new sheave cohomology you've cooked up that might actually make it into a major mag, and they really don't think that your super-duper IQ and encyclopediac knowledge of sf and game hacks is really bringing all that much to the table.


Posted by ScentOfViolets | June 28, 2008 12:18 AM

..........................

Where did you hear that? Rejected someone who was actually well into something intelligent, on the basis of his incapability to entertain? No wonder the whole nation is going down in certain much needed skill, to put it euphemistically.

By the way sheaf cohomology is not new, no one is "cooking" it up "now" and it won't make it into mags, only some in more or less prestigious professional journals.

As for the poor sap who used that - he couldn't find someone who could comprehend what he said, not because intelligent women of that calibre don't exist, but because your "mags" are busy scaring young girls into being dumbed down.

Art, there's nothing wrong with Janeane Garofalo, if that's your particualr cup of joe. I think about 99.98% of men would agree that Uma is more desirable, as well as, IMHO, being smarter and a better actress.

Maybe you didn't see the movie they made together.

... Well since women use their relationships with their dads as templates for their future relationships with men...

The best, briefest advice for marital happiness from the male's point of view I ever heard came from Mel Brooks of all people, when asked about the key to the success of his 40-year Hollywood marriage: "Look for woman who likes her father."

Twenty years later, as I've seen all my friends marry, divorce, spend fortunes on counselling, that sure seems to correlate far more with husbandly happiness than other things like, oh, whether or not the guy behaved so that he deserved to be happy.

Mel Brooks of all people, when asked about the key to the success of his 40-year Hollywood marriage: "Look for woman who likes her father."

trenchant.
the corollary: when i want to maximize my odds of quick and easy sex i'll screen for girls with daddy issues.