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Sweden: paradise or purgatory?

05 Jun 2008 03:04 pm

I know, I should link more. I tend to forget that my readers don't know everything I know--that they haven't written a couple dozen stories about European disability and pension systems, growth rates, unemployment, immigration, and so forth. That's the hazard of blogging--print journalists have editors there to remind them what other people don't know.

So sorry that I didn't provide links on my Sweden post about disability, unemployment, and so forth. I just sort of assumed that Sweden's amazing rates of disability, "true" unemployment rate that may top 20%, and so forth were common knowledge. They certainly aren't particularly controversial. But if there is anything less common than common sense, it's probably "common knowledge".

That, presumably, is how this got written. It's a compendium of extremely weak Google-fu that betrays a pretty fundamental lack of knowledge about Sweden's economic problems.

Let me be clear: Sweden is not by any means a dystopian hell on earth full of morose workers standing in endless queues for Yugoslavian shoes. It's a lovely place to live, full of people who are about as happy as genetics and the weather permit them to be. However, Sweden is wrestling with a lot of big issues. I was going to write a post about them to correct some of Ms. G's more bizarre misperceptions, but I was beaten to the punch by the inimitable Michael Moynihan, who has lived in Sweden, is married to a (lovely) Swede, and has spent far more time on the subject than I have, explain. Luckily for you, he's done a far better job than I would have. I won't excerpt, because it should be read in its entirety.

One other point I should make, though: the subject of cultural homogeneity and welfare states is complicated, delicate, and by no means settled. But there are a few things we think we do know. First, the more ethnically diverse a population is, the lower the political support for lavish safety nets (the subject of Robert Putnam's recent anguished paper). We also know to a pretty high degree of certainty that social solidarity plays a big role in keeping down free riding--most people don't refrain from shoplifting because they're afraid of a minor court case, but because Mom would cry and the neighbors would snicker. When you have multiple, somewhat mutually suspicious communities, you have to rely on other, harsher measures, like fraud police--or see public support erode even further. Most people don't mind paying taxes for people they think can't work. But very few want to support people who won't work. Cultural norms about what constitutes "can't", "won't", and "shouldn't have to" matter a great deal.

And even with a small country with a single culture that defines these categories pretty much the same, if those norms change, as seems (from both anecdotal and empirical evidence) to be happening in Sweden, it may be that the change will make welfare programs either fiscally or politically untenable. I don't know that this is true, and indeed don't know of any way to prove it. But I think it's worth exploring.

Comments (80)

thread highjack...hey, your kindle...is it readable in direct sunlight?

Actually the "single culture" aspect is failing, too: just google Malmo if you have any doubts.

Why is it remotely surprising that communities that have stronger inter-citizen genetic and/or cultural ties are more likely to support each other financially? Why is it depressing, disturbing, concerning, or anything other than an obvious artifact of human evolution? It's possible that with intermarriage and long periods of time the population of the US and other large countries will view themselves as essentially one genetic or cultural or political family - but that's a long way off. People are inherently tribal and suspicious - it has 'ere been thus. We are not an ant colony by genetic makeup or destiny.

Sweden is on the verge of passing a far-reaching wiretapping program that would greatly expand the government's spying capabilities by permitting it to monitor all email and telephone traffic coming in and out of the country.

So far, hacks from the mainstream Swedish press seem to be on holiday, so news about the proposed law is woefully hard to come by. That leaves us turning to this summary from the decidedly partisan Swedish Pirate Party for details. We'd prefer to rely on a more neutral group, but that wasn't possible this time. According to them, here's a broad outline:

The En anpassad försvarsunderrättelseverksamhet bill (which loosely translates to "a better adapted military intelligence gathering") gives Sweden's National Defence Radio Establishment (FRA) direct access to the traffic passing through its borders. Now remember, we're talking about the internet, which frequently routes packets though multiple geographically dispersed hops before they reach their final destination.

This all but guarantees that emails and voice over IP (VoIP) calls between Swedes will routinely be siphoned into a massive monitoring machine. And we wouldn't be surprised if traffic between parties with no tie to the country regularly passes through Sweden's border as well, and that too would be fair game. (For example, email sent from a BT address in London to Finland is likely to pass through Sweden first.)

Once intercepted, the data will be searched for certain keywords, and those that contain the words will be pulled aside for additional scrutiny. A broad array of organizations will have use of the system, including the Department of Transportation, the Department of Agriculture, the police, secret service and customs, and in some cases major businesses. The bill allows Swedes to be singled out, as well.

When the bill was introduced in early 2007, Google was reportedly so concerned about its consequences for privacy that it threatened to limit its ties to the country if the measure passed.

"We have contacted Swedish authorities to give our view of the proposal and we have made it clear that we will never place any servers inside Sweden's borders if the proposal goes through," Peter Fleischer, Google's global privacy counsel, said last year, according to this article. "We simply cannot compromise our users' integrity by allowing Swedish authorities access to data that may not even concern Swedish activity."

But so far, few outside of the pro-privacy universe have bothered to discuss the bill this time around. There have been no similar pronouncements from Google and representatives there didn't respond to a request for comment. The Electronic Frontier Foundation has likewise been reticent about the bill.

"Surprisingly enough, there hasn't been that much written about it, even in the Swedish media," said Patrik Runald, a Swedish national and a security response manager for F-Secure who works in San Jose, California.

"The funny thing is when asked what do you want to look for, [backers of the bill] don't really specify what they're interested in," he continued. "It's a very broad bill. They basically can interpret whatever they like."
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/06/04/sweden_wiretap_bill/

I would just ignore Ms. G from here on out. She's obviously "attacking" you to gain internet cred with her lefty readers, none of whom care if the arguments she makes are sound or not. As long as what she says sounds erudite and complicated, they're satisfied. Read the comments to her post and see for yourself.

Let her go. There are much better ways to spend your (and our) time.

Sweden's national debt is 42% of GDP, ours is 68%. How does this fit in with Megan's thesis about the bankrupting effects of a generous welfare state?

However, Sweden is wrestling with a lot of big issues.

Thank goodness we don't have any of those.

She's obviously "attacking" you to gain internet cred with her lefty readers, none of whom care if the arguments she makes are sound or not.

Your use of the word attacking in scare quotes is inspiring. And I would just ask this: couldn't you just as easily make an argument from bad faith about Megan? She certainly has a powerful ideological bias against seeing anything of value in Sweden, right?

Stan - what numbers are you using?

Wikipedia's list of Public Debt has the US at 36.8% and Sweden at 38%.

Stan, are you confusing gross debt with public debt?

Sweden's national debt is 42% of GDP, ours is 68%. How does this fit in with Megan's thesis about the bankrupting effects of a generous welfare state?

U.S.: 36.8% of GDP (2007 est.)

Sweden: 41.9% of GDP (2007 est.)

Stan,

US debt as a % of GDP 36.8%

Sweden 38%

Germany 65.3%

France 66.6%

Italy 104%

Japan a shocking 180%

And, of topic, can I ask what the hell the Japanese government has been spending all that money on?

Thanks for the link to the Reason article, Megan. Very interesting.

Stan,

It seems that the European Welfare State comes with some combination of a crushing tax burden and obscene levels of government debt.

I'm sure it's the way to go though.....

I replied to a question about my numbers for public debt by citing wikipedia articles found by looking for articles with titles like "economy of Fredonia". My post seems to have vanished into the aether. I wonder if this one will survive.

what people forget about scandanavian countires is that their politics are relentlessly practical and not ideology driven. Swedes do things becasue they work, when they stop working they do other things. The socialist policies will only be kept as long as they hold their own and prove their worthyness. And if you could take the politics out of the equation, why would you hold any policy to any other standard? Incidently a few libertarian type policies have been implemented in sweden recently, including private medicine. If only american politics was free enough to evaluate policy on the merits.

I would just ignore Ms. G from here on out.

Yeah, she's basically pulling the classic Coulter trick of "attacking upward" (quotes added for Freddie's benefit). Basically, you pick someone more famous than yourself and attack them, and when they reply, you gain attention from people who otherwise would not have know that you exist. It's old hat among political agitators, but still effective when applied to the unsuspecting.

I'm also not convinced Ms. G even exists. She seems suspiciously like the kind of literary fiction the FMM groupies would have concocted for the specific purpose of annoying Megan. If she does exist, she may be on payroll.

jmo,

A good proportion of Japan's government spending has gone to public works projects in rural areas in an unsuccessful attempt to buoy rural economies. And a good proportion of that money has gone to concrete: Americans would be shocked to know that almost every river in Japan flows through banks of concrete, and even uninhabited islands in the Inland Sea are often encased entirely in concrete. All for erosion-prevention, of course.

Dogs and Demons, by Alex Kerr, is an entertaining and infuriating treatment of the fiscal and economic follies that have characterized Japan for the past couple decades.

From an interview with said Alex Kerr:

In particular, of course, the construction state and the runaway government-subsidized construction projects that have wreaked untold damage on mountains, rivers, streams, lakes, wetlands, everywhere — and it goes on at a heightened pace. That is the reality of modern Japan, and the numbers are staggering.

To give you an example, in America about 8 percent of the national budget goes on construction, while in Japan it's 40 percent. The percentage of the workforce in America involved in construction is below 1 percent, in Japan it was 12 and now it's closer to 14 percent; it actually grew in the '90s. The amount of concrete laid per square meter in Japan is 30 times the amount in America, and the volume is almost exactly the same. So we're talking about a country the size of California laying the same amount of concrete [as the entire U.S.]. Multiply America's strip malls and urban sprawl by 30 to get a sense of what's going on in Japan.

A fascinating aspect of this is that it wasn't required by the economy. [Construction] has actually driven the nation into debt, colossal debt, the world's highest. It has damaged the economy because all those millions of people wearing hardhats are millions of people who weren't recycled into new industries, and that's one reason Japan is suffering a high unemployment rate.

I would just ignore Ms. G from here on out. She's obviously "attacking" you to gain internet cred with her lefty readers, none of whom care if the arguments she makes are sound or not.

And Megan has how many readers, compared to Big Media Matt(Yglesias) or Andew Sullivan? If she really wanted to gain cred, Ms. G would pick on someone a lot bigger.

Wasn't there a conversation between the PM of Sweden and Milton Friedman that went something like this:

PM: You know, we have a very low rate of poverty in Sweden.
MF: That's funny. People of swedish decent in the US have a very low level of poverty as well.

It would appear that common cultural is more important than common genetics. Demonstration: compare the behavior of 3rd (or more) generation Americans, with the natives of whatever place their ancestors came from. The differences will virtually always be far, far larger than the differences between various American ethnic groups. QED

"U.S.: 36.8% of GDP (2007 est.)

Sweden: 41.9% of GDP (2007 est.)"

Snort. that's based on the CIA figures.

According to the US treasury the debt on the 4th june 2008 was 9,395,806,163,660.61

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np

The US gdp is 14.1 trillion.
http://www.bea.gov/national/

I'll leave it to the reader to calculate how
9/14 is equivalent to 36%......

Where the CIA gets the notion that the US nat
ional debt is less as a % of gdp than of sweden ?

Presumably from the same place that the CIA thought that Iraq had WMD's.

Not about Sweden, but here's an official promotional video about Finland.
I liked the frank admission towards the end, "Wages, or what's left after taxes, might not impress on a worldwide scale, but you'll get by just fine."

Then, a little later, the narrator says, "Although not many foreigners live in Finland, we now welcome them with open arms. The baby boomers are retiring; we need skills in a variety of sectors." During that last sentence, the video shows a woman attaching a cow to a milking machine, and a man sweeping up what looks like urine in the barn.

Re: And, of topic, can I ask what the hell the Japanese government has been spending all that money on?

If this is a fairly recent development, I'd guess they've been doing a lot of fiscal pump priming to try to re-start their economy after the collapse of the 90s. If not that, then I too would like someone to clue us in. Japan doesn't have a massive military, nor is its welfare state particularly extravagant.

Re: It seems that the European Welfare State comes with some combination of a crushing tax burden and obscene levels of government debt.

If you add in the cost of both employer-paid healthcare in the US and of uncompensated care I would what the numbers for the US look like?

Sweden has, over the last decades, completely reformed their welfare system. It is now an example (not perfect, but pretty good, especially trend-wise) of a "libertarian welfare state": private social security, vouchers everywhere (education in particular, but some other services are being vouchered).

kb's figures are the ones I used in my post that got disappeared. Our national debt, considered as a fraction of GDP, is about 1.5 times Sweden's. I again ask how this squares with the notion that the welfare state is bankrupting Sweden.

KB:
The Social Security "trust fund" accounts for a big chunk (around 40%, I think) of the US government's "debt." This isn't true debt, because the government is both creditor and debtor, and the credit cancels out the debt.

More importantly, government debt as a percentage of GDP isn't a very useful measure of an economy's strength, any more than debt-to-income ratio is a good way to compare the relative financial status of two individuals. If I were to take out a mortgage and buy a house, my debt-to-income ratio would skyrocket, but I wouldn't really be any poorer for it. GDP per capita is, while not ideal, certainly a much better measure than public debt as a percentage of GDP.

Is it just me, or is the hyperlink with the "explain" anchor have the wrong URL ? (Or, rather, no URL?)

Healthy people faking disabilities to get government benefits is scarcely a phenomenon restricted to Sweden. It happens a lot in America too.

I just sort of assumed that Sweden's amazing rates of disability, "true" unemployment rate that may top 20%, and so forth were common knowledge. They certainly aren't particularly controversial.

Disability rates I would believe -- just checking them out now. But the "true" unemployment rate in the teens would, if measured with the same methodology, also be in the teens in the US. We go to John Schmitt of the Center for Economic and Policy Research:

"In 2006 the McKinsey Global Institute published an analysis of the Swedish economy, with the finding that the "de facto" unemployment rate in 2004 was 15 to 17 percent, about three times higher than the official unemployment rate of 5.4 percent. These estimates were cited in the media as part of critiques of recent Swedish economic performance. To arrive at the 15 to 17 percent "de facto" unemployment rate, McKinsey included "people who don't work, even though they should be able to" in the pool of the unemployed. The analysis reported here accepts the McKinsey methodology and applies it to the United States. The resulting "de facto" unemployment rate for the United States is 13.8 percent, compared with the 5.5 percent official U.S. unemployment rate, and the estimated 15.5 percent "de facto" Swedish unemployment rate. If the two countries' prison and jail populations are also included in the "de facto" unemployment rate, the U.S. rate rises to 15.2 percent, just 0.5 percentage points lower than what McKinsey's equivalent figure would be for Sweden--15.7 percent."

So much for "not particularly controversial". The things that aren't particularly controversial at The Economist may well be quite controversial elsewhere.

kb,

You are confused, like Stan. The $9 trillion you quote includes "intragovernmental holdings." That isn't money the government owes to external creditors, it's simply an IOU from one part of the government to another. The true public debt ("Debt held by the Public") is the $5.3 trillion figure. Which is indeed about 38% of GDP. Which is lower than Sweden's corresponding figure of 42%.

In fairness, a private entity would have to list obligations comparable to Social Security on the liabilities side of the balance sheet, so it makes sense to count it as "debt" on the government's balance sheet, too.

Of course, we would need to know the NPV for Sweden's public pensions to make the apples-to-apples comparison.

Both of the links in the sentence about Michael Moynihan are broken, or at least they don't link to anything relating to anything Moynihan wrote.

"In fairness, a private entity would have to list obligations comparable to Social Security on the liabilities side of the balance sheet, so it makes sense to count it as "debt" on the government's balance sheet, too."

But it's an offsetting asset at the same time. I don't think a private entity can even do what the government does here: issue itself a bond so that it simultaneously carries the bond both as its liability and as its asset on the balance sheet. The two values cancel out. Congress could make the whole social security trust fund disappear with the stroke of a pen tomorrow and no one on earth would lose a penny of actual wealth. So is that real debt or not? Whatever, I think the whole thing is just stupid.

Healthy people faking disabilities to get government benefits is scarcely a phenomenon restricted to Sweden. It happens a lot in America too.

Peter, the point is not that the Swedes are especially prone to laziness; the point is that you get more malingering as you improve the incentives to malinger - i.e., by increasing the generosity of benefits. At 60% of your full time salary, it appears you get a pretty high level of malingering; hell, I'd probably malinger if I could get 60% of my current income. At the compensation I'd receive on social security in the U.S.? Not so much.

re: social security trust fund debt -- an apt analogy is that it's the same as receiving a pre-approval letter in the mail for a credit card company. That's precisely what the GSA securities in the SS trust fund and similar funds are: nothing but pre-approval for future borrowing when needed, to cut down on future Congressional debates. Receiving that promotional pre-approval letter from Citibank does not mean you are already in debt to them, does it?

The "explain" link loops back to the Megan article. I wanted to forward to a leftist Swedophile, but cannot. Help me take a whack at him.

My point re:SS is that if a private entity committed, legally, to pay money at some future date, then it would have to carry that promise on its books as a liability/debt. The existence of notes or a "trust fund" or whatever is irrelevant to the analysis; it's the promise to pay that counts when you write up your balance sheet.

Accordingly, SS obligations, properly discounted, should be counted as part of the liabilities of the US government. And similar future promises on the part of the Swedish government should be counted against them. It strikes me as unwise to consider only the public debt of either country, given the third-rail nature of public pension promises.

Be that as it may what emphatically should not happen is a comparison between US liabilities on the one hand and Swedish public debt on the other; that is plainly apples and oranges. And to recycle a bad joke I recently heard, you can compare apples and oranges, but it's never very fruitful.

Debt % is a useless measure in any case because you just know a number, not anything else. When you know the long term trajectory of a country's currency against gold you have the definitive answer about whether or not the country can "afford" what its doing. Since 1913 there isn't much to brag about in Western Civilization on this score.

" My point re:SS is that if a private entity committed, legally, to pay money at some future date, then it would have to carry that promise on its books as a liability/debt. The existence of notes or a "trust fund" or whatever is irrelevant to the analysis; it's the promise to pay that counts when you write up your balance sheet.

Accordingly, SS obligations, properly discounted, should be counted as part of the liabilities of the US government. And similar future promises on the part of the Swedish government should be counted against them. It strikes me as unwise to consider only the public debt of either country, given the third-rail nature of public pension promises.

Be that as it may what emphatically should not happen is a comparison between US liabilities on the one hand and Swedish public debt on the other; that is plainly apples and oranges. And to recycle a bad joke I recently heard, you can compare apples and oranges, but it's never very fruitful.

Posted by Rob Lyman | June 5, 2008 11:55 PM"


The short answer is no. In 1960 the US Supreme Court ruled that Social Security was not a contractual obligation on the part of the government. Congress can at anytime amend or abolish the program. Hence the debt portion of the national debt portioned to Social Security is meaningless. The government does not have a contractual obligation to provide a S.S pension and therefore that portion of the national debt is an accounting artifice, not a real debt.

Rob:
Accordingly, SS obligations, properly discounted, should be counted as part of the liabilities of the US government.

Fair enough, but if we're going to count Social Security (and Medicare, Medicaid, etc.) obligations (such as they are), then we should count their full value, not just the amount "borrowed" by the general fund from Social Security taxes, which ultimately means absolutely nothing.

Of course, I assume you understand that already--I'm just clarifying for others.

Stuart,

The reason for the different debt figures is that the US uses a different way of measuring national debt. Most (all?) European nations use the common sense measure of money the government actually owes to anyone other than the government itself. The US keeps this measure too, and calls it "debt held by the public". This figure is ~36%GDP for the US.

The US, also, tries to account for future obligations for multigenerational programs by writing IOU's to itself and including this in the national debt figure. The biggest, but not only, such set of IOU's is due to social security. If you add in these IOU's, then you get 68% GDP as debt. By the same measure, most European nations, including Sweden, have MUCH higher debt loads. All credible economists agree most European nations, including Sweden, have MUCH higher future pension liabilities, relatively speaking, than the US. (This is due to inferior European demographics for supporting "pay as you go" state pensions.) It's just they don't track these liabilities the same way.

That being said, Sweden is unusual among European nations in that its government has large assets as well. When you factor this in, their long term debt situation is arguably better than ours. The major continental European economies (France, Germany, and Italy) are truly in MUCH worse shape than the US, at least as far as national debt is concerned.

Brandon, I agree with you. I'm just trying to get at the fact that a really accurate picture of the public fisc will simply have to include these sorts of future obligations. For instance, if the Swedes' public pension system is fully funded as of today, so that their public debt is the only liability on the balance sheet, then they really are in a better fiscal position than we are, even with a higher public debt number.

That is, while insisting on an apples-to-apples comparison, as Mixner and others have done, is nice, it's even better to pick the right set of apples. Which set, IMHO, includes future liabilities as well as public debt.

Cubanbob, I'm familar with Fleming v. Nestor, thanks much. But just as a sensible company does not create its balance sheet based on the assumption that it will at some point enter bankruptcy and discharge its debts, financial planners in our government should not cheerfully assume that SS's commitments will be repudiated until such time as they actually are.

Really, I'm not asking for anything that should be controversial here, just the application of basic accounting 101 principles to governmental operations.

Really, I'm not asking for anything that should be controversial here, just the application of basic accounting 101 principles to governmental operations.

Controversial, no. Practicality...eh, somewhere in the range of walking on water, which as far as we know, doesn't happen on a regular basis and either requires a supernatural element or convoluted trickery when it does.

Which, as far as I've been able to tell, aptly characterizes the explanations put forth for the accounting validity of the trust fund.

Sweden's national debt is 42% of GDP, ours is 68%. How does this fit in with Megan's thesis about the bankrupting effects of a generous welfare state?
U.S.: 36.8% of GDP (2007 est.)
Sweden: 41.9% of GDP (2007 est.)


God, I wish my debt were only 36 or 41 percent of our yearly household income. Strangely at the national level these debt to income ratios are considered bad, while my family's ratio is actually considered not just normal but very creditworthy. These days I can buy (or borrow) an awful lot just with my signature.

yours/
peter.

...somewhere in the range of walking on water, which as far as we know, doesn't happen on a regular basis and either requires a supernatural element or convoluted trickery when it does.

Mmmmmm. Obama!

Is there anything he can't do?

Rob:
For instance, if the Swedes' public pension system is fully funded as of today, so that their public debt is the only liability on the balance sheet, then they really are in a better fiscal position than we are, even with a higher public debt number.

That depends on what "fully funded" means. If it means that they have a huge trust fund equal to the NPV of all future liabilities invested in securities backed by something other than expectations of future tax revenue, that's one thing. But if "fully funded" just means that their tax rates are already high enough to cover promised benefits, I don't see that as necessarily being a superior position. As long as we don't raise taxes, we at least leave open the possibility of closing the gap by slowing the growth of benefits rather than raising taxes.

Please, I beg of you, no more Kathy G. You really dignify her way too much.

"You are confused, like Stan. The $9 trillion you quote includes "intragovernmental holdings." That isn't money the government owes to external creditors, it's simply an IOU from one part of the government to another. The true public debt ("Debt held by the Public") is the $5.3 trillion figure. Which is indeed about 38% of GDP. Which is lower than Sweden's corresponding figure of 42%"

Well looking at the figures for the UK I can see that whilst the CIA simply drops nearly 50% of the US's debt due to intragovermental holdings , it doesn't do the same for the UK figures.

If we apply the same rule to the UK as the US then the UK's debt figures drop from 43% to around 28%.

I would therefore assume it hasn't ,in fact, applied the same rules for sweden as it has for the US.

And the figure it has for the UK's external debt is ludicrous. Absurdly so. If they can't get that right then I'd treat every figure on that site with the deepest suspicion.

Why do Americans bad-mouth Sweden?

Let's start with ten reasons. Because Sweden:

1. Is affluent
2. Has low crime rates
3. Has very low poverty rates
4. Has low national and personal debt
5. Has a very low level of corruption
6. Has a very low level of government sleaze
7. Gives healthcare to everyone
8. Is a consensual and caring society
9. Does not wage war on other people
10. Does not try to impose its will on other people

And they manage all of that without doing things the "American way". Which infuriates US'ers, because they hate their ideological preconceptions being junked so comprehensively.

Simple, ain't it!

Re: Healthy people faking disabilities to get government benefits is scarcely a phenomenon restricted to Sweden

Successfully faking a disability out of nothing is very difficult to do. What usually happens is that a person has some minor or at least not very major health problem which they exaggerate to go on disability.

Re: God, I wish my debt were only 36 or 41 percent of our yearly household income. Strangely at the national level these debt to income ratios are considered bad, while my family's ratio is actually considered not just normal but very creditworthy.

If your family's debt is mainly the result of a mortgage, that explains the difference: you have an asset to balance off against that debt. Government however don't. If your debt were solely the result of credit card use and it was equal to or greater than your annual income that would indeed be bad. And that's the analogy for government debt.

Sweden is getting its ass kicked by Muslim immigrants. Gang rapes, honor killings, cultural imperialism, Sharia law. Sweden is not Sweden for long, people. Go visit before it's gone.

Native Swedes know this. The ambitious ones are looking to emigrate to freedom, and the lazy ones just go on disability or retire at age 50. Sweden is dying.

Sven,

Sorry to disappoint you, but for most Americans, Sweden occupies even less of our mental space than Canada, which is to say, not a whole lot. Which is unfortunate, because the folks most likely to talk about Sweden are American lefties who hold it up as some kind of ideal utopian society, and the average American is incapable of calling such statements out for the bulls--t they are.

In any event, your list is mildly entertaining, though you may want to actually try grounding your bill of particulars in actual empirical evidence next time. Following that there link, you'll not that in 2001, Sweden's overall crime rate was about triple that in the U.S. (though it does appear there's some discrepancy in the way crimes are counted). Its murder rate, about double; its rape rate, slightly higher. True, the U.S. had a much higher rate of serious assault, but the situation is not so favorable to Sweden your tossed-off list above seems to assume.

Sweden also allowed Nazis the use of their rail network to move troops between Norway and Finland, as well as to allow Nazi troops stationed in Norway passage to go on leave back to Germany. Sweden also fed the Nazi war machine with iron ore and industrial exports.

Before you go throwing stones there Sven, you should check to make sure your own house isn't made of glass...

(and I seem to remember there were several times where Sweden sought to impose its will on other nations... Viking invasions, imperial wars against Russia, Poland, and the Thirty Years War ring any bells?)

"Following that there link, you'll not that in 2001, Sweden's overall crime rate was about triple that in the U.S."

Hmm, I think you'll find that the way those figures are being used is ,shall we say, rubbish.

The homicide figures for the US match up with the FBI's figures. The swedish figures appear to dump in everything Murder, attempted murder, manslaughter etc ,which aren't included in the US's figures.

Those US figures are using the FBI Uniform Crime Index.This is a reporting tool which the FBI's uses to track serious crimes across the US.

It however only counts 7 types of crime. (Homicide ,Forcible Rape,Aggravated Assault, Robbery,Larceny ,Vehicle Theft & Burglary).

Every other type of crime is not included in the index.Which is why according to the figures at the link there is no drug crime in the US....

The swedish figures being used are using ALL crime recorded in Sweden in 2001 from homicide down to petty vandalism and driving offences.

So no they can't be compared because they're looking at 2 completely different sets of data.

in 2001, Sweden's overall crime rate was about triple that in the U.S. - Richard

Wha....??? That doesn't sound right!

Doop dee doop, checkin' Google.

Ah, here it is. Megan's old magazine!

"Correction: Sweden's murder rate

Oct 23rd 2003
From The Economist print edition

Due to an inaccuracy (now corrected) in Interpol's database, our comparative chart in an article on South African crime on October 11th exaggerated Sweden's murder rate by a factor of more than five. Our apologies, especially to law-abiding Swedes."

This has been another edition of "Stats that sound totally bogus usually are!" Thanks for your support.

My apologies for the failure to check the stats out more thoroughly. Thank you for the correction.

Sven Svensson: Why do Americans bad-mouth Sweden?

This may come as a shock to you, but most Americans neither know nor care where Sweden is. Sweden is just one of the 160+ countries from where we get immigrants - people who vote with their feet, at the rate of a million a year, and that is counting only the legal immigrants.

Many liberals who seek more government intervention in the economy point to European countries like Sweden as socialist paradises. They are the ones who force the comparisons between the two countries. You should take up your complaint with them.

I am a non-European immigrant to the US, from a country once colonized by Europeans. I mean no offense to Europeans, and I even have European friends. But every time someone talks about how we should do something that Europeans do, we should ask about the recent European contributions to the human experience: colonialism, two World Wars, socialism, communism, Marxism, the holocaust, genocide and ethnic cleansing.

America is not a perfect country by any means, but its track records of sins pales in comparison to the above.

I read Moynihan's piece but was put off by what I percieved as a lot of ad hominem. I don't know what coining the term "Google Pundit" adds to his argument.

"Why do Americans bad-mouth Sweden?

Let's start with ten reasons. Because Sweden:

1. Is affluent
2. Has low crime rates
3. Has very low poverty rates
4. Has low national and personal debt
5. Has a very low level of corruption
6. Has a very low level of government sleaze
7. Gives healthcare to everyone
8. Is a consensual and caring society
9. Does not wage war on other people
10. Does not try to impose its will on other people

And they manage all of that without doing things the "American way". Which infuriates US'ers, because they hate their ideological preconceptions being junked so comprehensively.

Simple, ain't it!"

Wow. I kind of liked Sweden until I read this. I though only Americans were supposed to be smug and self-righteous?

Japan's social security, and public health insurance systems are indeed much more comprehensive (and expensive, I believe, although it's too late at night to search for the figures now) than the U.S.'s.

Plus, until very recently retirement age has been sixty. And Japanese life expectancy is higher than in the U.S. By a lot.

Oh, and the upside-down triangle that shows U.S. population trends? Make that angle greater in the Japanese triangle. They're not replacing themselves over here. Around 1.5 children per family, not 2.5 like in the U.S.

I can remember (and I haven't been in Japan that long) when people over retirement age (that's right, 60) got all their medical treatment free. They have to pay now. Starting this year they even have to pay taxes on their social security benefits. It's hard when people live on the government for 15 - 20 years after they have stopped producing any value in the economy.

So there's going to be some major belt-tightening in Japan. Or no belt-tightening, followed by a brief instant of free-fall and a loud, rubble-producing crash.

J in Japan,

Is it in fact true that Japan's social security system is more comprehensive than the U.S. My impression during the decade I lived in Japan was that both the public pension system and the welfare system were not any more generous than that in the U.S., and may have been less. Then again, my statistical ineptitude has been shown for all on this thread to see, so I could be wrong.

With the US having gov't debt levels of 1/2 to 1/5 that of other industrialized nations, and much better demographics, it seems the EURO and Yen may be in for trouble ahead...

Richard:

"Following that there link, you'll not that in 2001, Sweden's overall crime rate was about triple that in the U.S. (though it does appear there's some discrepancy in the way crimes are counted). Its murder rate, about double; its rape rate, slightly higher"

You should be wary of lifting info from Danish websites that comment critically on Sweden. They often don't even compare apples to pears, but prefer apples to peas

That there link you talk about does not tell you that Swedish crime stats include traffic infractions and other offences including "booze crime". Nor does it tell you that the original data it was based on was faulty to begin with

As for murders, gimme a break! Sweden has a murder rate of well below 2 per 100,000, whereas the US rate is at least twice as high, and not so long ago it was more than three times as high

Having Danish ancestry, I know as a matter of fact that the Swedes are evil. Gone are the days we could hop in a boat and grab their women. You gotta give the Swedes some props for the women.

Dr K

"Sweden also allowed Nazis the use of their rail network to move troops between Norway and Finland, as well as to allow Nazi troops stationed in Norway passage to go on leave back to Germany. Sweden also fed the Nazi war machine with iron ore and industrial exports"

True, but they didn't have a choice; and to their credit, they didn't supply Stalin. Unlike others, who had the choice not to, but did it anyway

"(and I seem to remember there were several times where Sweden sought to impose its will on other nations... Viking invasions, imperial wars against Russia, Poland, and the Thirty Years War ring any bells?)"

C'mon K, the latest of those events was a good 50 years before the American Revolution. How about getting real?

Sven,

Where can I get reliable crime statistics for Sweden? Where is that

Re: So Sweden may not be very religious now, but it certainly has been for most of its existance.

Like every other civilized and semi-civilized nation on Earth, except the US, Japan does have universal healthcare. But a lot of Japan's social welfare system is performed through its corporations. Lifetime employment, for example, substitutes for a generous unemployment system and keep those costs off the government's books.

Concerning the level of the US debt, 36% of GDP, which would be around $4.5 trillion as cited on the CIA web page vs the $9 trillion figure given at the Treasury web site, which would be around 70% of GDP. I think the difference is accounted for by the Social Security Administration. For many years now, Social Security has been running a surplus. The government, that is the Treasury, borrows money by selling bonds. By law the Social Security surplus must be used to buy US Treasury bonds. Social Security has to buy the bonds and the Treasury must issue the bonds to Social Security. Even when the budget was in surplus during the 90s the government was "borrowing" hundreds of billions of dollars a year from the Social Security administration. This is just shifting monies from one government account to another. Thus the total amount of money that the government has borrowed from other entities, banks, corporations, individuals, foriegn governments, etc. may be about $4.5 trillion, or 36% of GDP, and this would constitute the actual public debt of the United States. The $9 trillion figure on the other hand, some 70% of GDP, constituting the total federal debt, includes money that one branch of the government owes to another branch of the government and does not affect the actual public debt any more than you taking money out of your checking account and putting it in your savings account increases your real level of personal indebtedness.
This does not men those extra trillions are meaningless however. As the number of retirees increases, and the number of working people decreases, Social Security is going to start cashing in those bonds and since Congress, Republicans and Democrats alike under administrations of both parties have spent all of the money, there will be a reckoning and it will be serious. President Bush tried to start getting us out from under the problem but neither party in Congress wanted to deal with it.

9. Does not wage war on other people

10. Does not try to impose its will on other people

Thanks to all nine million Swedes for not throwing their weight around and imposing their will on others.

Thanks also to Pee Wee Herman for not bullying Mike Tyson.

Dan: Wow. I kind of liked Sweden until I read this. I though only Americans were supposed to be smug and self-righteous?

Nope. It's everywhere. Now working for a company owned by Swedes has been an interesting experience. They think nothing of speaking Swedish in front of Americans (the official company language is English); they avoid conflict like the plague even if avoiding it will cause them more trouble down the road; and they have the worst case of "Not invented here" that I've ever experienced in my years in industry.

I have worked with some incredible Swedes and learned a lot. But the majority of them I've come in contact with have exhibited the above traits.

Like every other civilized and semi-civilized nation on Earth, except the US, Japan does have universal healthcare.

The US has universal health care. It is provided via the emergency room - no one there is denied health care due to an inability to pay. While that is an exceptionally inefficient way to provide health care, it is universal.

Sven,

"True, but they didn't have a choice; and to their credit, they didn't supply Stalin. Unlike others, who had the choice not to, but did it anyway"

Excuse me? The Swedes had the same choice everyone else had. They, unlike America and the other allied powers, took the option which spared themselves any suffering. And they would make the same choice today I'm sure. A noble bunch.

And Sven, I'm sure Sweden would have supplied Stalin too if it could have made their lives any easier. But there was never any need.

The U.S. supplied Stalin because it was fighting Germany. If the U.S. had collaborated with the Nazi's as Sweden did, there would have been no need to help Stalin.

Skullberg:

"Where can I get reliable crime statistics for Sweden? Where is that"

You can get them from http://www.scb.se/

(There's a link to English somewhere)

Sweden has good statistics in international comparison, because it knows who its people are, where they are and what they do. In that sense the math is very exact

But crime stats are notoriously difficult to compare, as everyone interested in the subject knows

Murder/Homicide and violent crime is what most researchers focus on, and from this perspective Sweden is a very safe place

It's a great place to live and bring up children

wss

"Excuse me? The Swedes had the same choice everyone else had"

Tell me, wss, have you ever looked at a map?

We are liking Sweden very well, especially the women! Even the men in Sweden are women! Very well, yes, we are making most common name in Sweden Mohammed now.

We have noticed the rape rate has exploded tremendously since the mass-immigration to Sweden
began.

Jeanne

You are playing reckless. Perhaps you shall meet another kind of Swedish men.

Jeanne

I can't and won't trust someone's assesement of anything who is pro-fascism.

Megan wrote: "First, the more ethnically diverse a population is, the lower the political support for lavish safety nets ..."

I know this is based on a very serious study. One word: Canada.

Canada has its problems, I know I'm Canadian.

But, the country has one of the highest immigration rates in the world, alongside an extensive welfare system. Most arguments regarding the welfare system here focus on how to reform it, make it work better, rather than to get rid of it.

Though, what Canada offers is no where near what is found in many European countries.

Spain, for example, offers free health care to all immigrants, legal and illegal. So does the UK, if memory serves me correctly.

But I guess it's more fun to argue about Sweden.