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Union-paid actuary takes New York for $500 million

03 Jun 2008 07:48 am

My mother, who has recently moved to DC after living in New York for forty years, was shocked by the corruption scandals. "Even in the worst days," she said, "no one took the city for $50 million."

Not so fast!

n the hundreds of bills for which he has provided estimates to lawmakers since 2000, the actuary, Jonathan Schwartz, said legislation adjusting the pensions of public employees would have no cost, or limited cost, to the city.

But just 11 of the more than 50 bills vetted by Mr. Schwartz that have become law since 2000 will result in the $500 million in eventual costs, or more than $60 million annually, according to projections provided by Robert C. North Jr., the independent actuary of the city pension system, and by Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg’s office.

Liberal commenters wonder why I don't associate public sector unions with the public good. This is why:

Mr. North and other city employees made the calculations on the 11 bills when they were before the Legislature, but for the other bills, no alternative to Mr. Schwartz’s projections could be found. The New York Times reported last month that in an arrangement that had not been publicly disclosed, Mr. Schwartz was being paid by labor unions. He acknowledged in an interview that he skewed his work to favor the public employees, calling his job “a step above voodoo.”

But never fear, justice will be swift and sure:

As a result, legislative leaders said they would no longer rely on Mr. Schwartz’s work, and a disciplinary board affiliated with the American Academy of Actuaries has begun a review of Mr. Schwartz’s conduct.

Comments (48)

"legislation adjusting the pensions of public employees would have no cost, or limited cost, to the city": how stupid, or corrupt, would a legislator have to be to believe that?

Liberal commenters wonder why I don't associate public sector unions with the public good. This is why:

And how many billions of dollars have gone missing, with no accountability, in Iraq? How much money have we paid al-Sadr(or those like him) bribe money so we could show "security gains"?

"A" does something foolish and costly
"B" does something foolish and costly
Ergo...uh... (I'm sure this proves something, either about "A" or "B")

Dear Reasoning Faculty:

The point is that, when lots of money goes missing because of corporate malfeasance or Pentagon negligence or Congressional pork or presidential dishonesty, no one says, "See, this proves that the corporation (or the Pentagon, or Congress, or the presidency) is a fundamentally evil institution." (Well, almost no one.) But when a union advocate does something underhanded to cause money to go missing, people like Megan say, "See, this proves that unions are fundamentally evil institutions." Just a bit of bias at work there . . .

What is your solution Klein's conscience?
We stop borrowing money to pay for Iraq and instead borrow money to pay unsustainable public sector union salaries and benefits.
Are you sure you want to get out of Iraq Joe?
I mean, you might actually have to address the problem at hand instead of offering Iraq! as a diversion to everything.
I sincerely hope we do get out of Iraq, if just to see what obfuscation you will turn to next.

Vallejo, CA:
Average salary of unranked police officer: $122,000
Able to retire at age 50 and receive an annual pension equal to 90% of their final pay
(plus adjusted annually for inflation.)
The outcome: Bankrupycy for Vallejo.
Joe: Uh, Iraq!!!

Megan says, "I don't associate public sector unions with the public good"

Megan means, "Unions are fundamentally evil institutions

(Sorry, I'm not seeing that one either.)

Megan says, "I don't associate public sector unions with the public good."

Megan means, "Unions are fundamentally evil institutions."

(Sorry, I'm not seeing that one either.)

Seriously, Karl, all she is saying is that unions have a propensity for using legislatures for rent-seeking purposes. I don't think she denies that private companies do this, too.

Her libertarian bias (not to put words in her mouth...but) is likely that the union rent seeking tends to be more systematic and effective (read: costly) than that of business, whose rent seeking behavior is also lamentable.

M. Hodak: The problem is that Megan really doesn't offer generalized observations about the bad traits of "businesses" or "corporations" with anything like the regularity or frequency with which she generalizes about the bad traits of unions.

It's a little like the classic two-panel cartoon. In the first panel a guy at a blackboard makes a math mistake, and an observer says, "Wow, you suck at math." In the second panel a girl makes the same mistake and the observer says, "Wow, girls suck at math."

Megan seizes every misdeed by a union to say, "Wow, unions are bad."

The real question: Are NYC public employees making enough to spend enough to trigger the Megan tax?

Four letters to strike terror into the hearts of any actuary: ABCD.

Why couldn't they have given the name of the "disciplinary board affiliated with the American Academy of Actuaries"?

We'll see these bills repealed any day now, and Schwartz prosecuted for taking a bribe.

Or an increase in the city sales or income tax to make up the cost increase.

I know which way I'm leaning.

I think the issue with pensions is that they are not transparent. We offer a reward later (aka decades) for work now. I LIKE pensions (especially social security) but I can see how small rules changes can cost a lot of money but be hard to see unless you are aware of all of the byzantine rules. It is not that I think that corporations are better (they aren't) but that bad behavior is just bad behavior -- no matter who does it.

Seems like fraud to me. Why is Cuomo not investigating him and the unions. If it was Wall Street that did this they would going all spitzer on them. typical double standard. public sector unions and their employees are the biggest paracites in the country and that includes big city public school teachers, who have a sweet gig of short hours and less than 9 months of work.

What I don't like about pensions is they're "free", just like any promise. Obviously I don't mean that literally, what I mean is politicians and businessmen don't have the pay the full cost of the promise at the time they make the promise - and some have the attitude that when the time comes to pay the bill they won't be the ones answering to (future) tax payers or shareholders (or retirees if the company goes bankrupt).

The point is that, when lots of money goes missing because of corporate malfeasance or Pentagon negligence or Congressional pork or presidential dishonesty, no one says, "See, this proves that the corporation (or the Pentagon, or Congress, or the presidency) is a fundamentally evil institution." (Well, almost no one.) But when a union advocate does something underhanded to cause money to go missing, people like Megan say, "See, this proves that unions are fundamentally evil institutions." Just a bit of bias at work there

You miss the point. Assume that corporate officers, pentagon officials, Congressional pork distributors, private sector union officials, & government union officials are all equally dishonest and fundamentally evil. (Due to original sin and all that -- they can't help themselves.)

The former may all misdirect funds into friends' pockets so a lot of "money goes missing". (And if caught they can go to jail, get impeached, face some other punishment.)

But the government unions are the only group who have their compensation packages for all their members enacted by law, who systematically deceive the taxpayers about the cost, and who even if caught keep the compensation packages forever as the base line from which their next ones will go up.

It's not about who's "more dishonest" -- it's about institutional arragengments that increase or reduce the cost of dishonesty, and that drop that cost on a smaller group of people who have some ability to counter dishonesty (like shareholders) or on a larger group that is helpless (like taxpayers).

"legislation adjusting the pensions of public employees would have no cost, or limited cost, to the city": how stupid, or corrupt, would a legislator have to be to believe that?

Exactly. When this estimate was made for pensions affecting the NYC Bloomberg called them on it in public. The number was so absurd that even the legislators in the unions' pocket (which is most of them in NYS) couldn't defend it.

The old story: when a pig becomes a hog it gets slaugtered. But it also shows how much the unions are accustomed to getting away with for them to assume they could get away with something as brazen as this.

You should've seen Shelly Silver, the Dem State Assembly leader, spinning rationalizations of how "shocked" he was that such wrongdoing could occur in the legislative process while taking great care to avoid any hint that there was anything wrong with the legislation itself or that he wasn't going to pass it anyhow.

Jim Glass, you seem to be asserting that unions have a unique ability to fraudulently impose unfair costs on other people against their wills, and that therefore union acts of dishonesty deserve greater opprobrium than similar acts of dishonesty by government officials, corporate executives, etc. But this is factually wrong. When the Bush administration distorted the costs of the Medicare drug plan, which ended up costing taxpayers hundreds of billions more than they claimed, or when government contractors in Iraq squandered tens of billions of taxpayer money, the damage to "helpless" taxpayers was every bit as serious as if a union had been responsible.

How would you like a guaranteed 8.25 percent return on your money?

If you're a New York City teacher, that's exactly what you can get, thanks to a law the state Legislature passed with almost no fanfare two years ago.

And that generous return is backed by taxpayers.

The benefit is over and above the teachers' pension plan.

Read More

Plus all disbursements from the 403(b) are tax free.

Karl Weber -

The point is that, when lots of money goes missing because of corporate malfeasance or Pentagon negligence or Congressional pork or presidential dishonesty, no one says, "See, this proves that the corporation (or the Pentagon, or Congress, or the presidency) is a fundamentally evil institution."

They are evil, and most people do say this and they should. But we cannot simply get rid of these things without causing even more damage to our republic, so we are forced to reform them. Public unions deliver no public good that ordinary employees would not, and they cause considerable expense and inefficiency. They are not even a necessary evil.

Uh, let us not lose notice of the fact that it is politicians bestowing these benefits. Sure, we can lament the fact that corrupt individuals petition government for rents, but the problem is the politicians passing out the favors. Just blaming unions or corporations for rent-seeking misses half the problem, and, in my opinion, misses the important half.

Yancey - you've missed on this one. The problem is the union bribing someone to hide the actual costs of the goodies the politicians are handing out, so that people don't realize just how much is being handed out.

Voters, in general, approve of a certain level of rent-seeking, though they may differ on which rent-seeking they prefer. When a voter is told "this rent-seeking behavior will cost $5 million dollars", when in reality, it will cost $50 million, they are being defrauded. The same voter who approves of a $5 million handout may not approve of $50 million for the same handout.

Joe_Klein's_conscience: alright, I'll play your game. Let's take ALL the money spent on Iraq. ALL, not just the stuff that went missing or to no-bid contracts. Got a number?

Now, let's look back at the public-sector pensions (and health care obligations if applicable). Let's count the TOTAL discounted present value of the underfunding of these obligations, all across the US. And keep in mind, these are due to idiots that don't "get" how you're suposed to evaluate and fund a pension, usually union members (hi, GM workers!) or their lackeys, as is the case here.

What does that value come to? NYT says

And that may well understate the gap: Barclays Global Investments has calculated that if America’s state pension plans were required to use the same methods as corporations, the total value of the benefits they have promised would grow 22 percent, to $2.5 trillion. Only $1.7 trillion has been set aside to pay those benefits.

So, that's a $1.3 trillion dollar shortfall. And that's just for states, not the even stupider municipalities and school districts.

Oops.

What I don't like about pensions is they're "free" ... what I mean is politicians and businessmen don't have the pay the full cost of the promise at the time they make the promise - and some have the attitude that when the time comes to pay the bill they won't be the ones answering to (future) tax payers or shareholders (or retirees if the company goes bankrupt).

You are soooo right about that! E.g.: FDR's original 1935 Social Security program was actuarially balanced to give each annual cohort of retirees a return of basically the federal bond rate on their contributions, and by 1980 it would have been funded sufficiently to last for decades more that way.

But Congress immediately in 1939 started turned it paygo, over FDR's veto, to give much larger unfunded benefits up front (and political benefits to themselves). FDR's Social Security chief Arthur Altmeyer went to the Congressional leadership and protested that by arithmetic this meant future generations would unfairly be hit with higher taxes and lower benefits, and far reduced returns on their contributions. Altmeyer reported that the Congressional leadership told him, "We won't be here".

They were both right. In 1983 the Congressional leadership of the 1940s was gone, SS went broke, taxes went up, benefits went down, and today's living young will get back from SS $13.6 trillion less than they put in (IB #1) (offsetting the $13.6 trillion more than they put in that was taken out by their elders). Which does note bode well for the future political popularity of Social Security.

The key is whether each generation funds its own retirement benefits from its own wages, one way or another. If it does, no problem. If it doesn't then some future generation is going to wind up funding benefits for two generations -- which is great up front, but will be a big problem later.

Medicare promises alone are unfunded now to the tune of almost $2 trillion per year, dwarfing what happened with Altmeyer. The big industries and their unions a generation ago jointly promised health benefits to their employees without funding them (their employees today are taking pay cuts and layoffs to pay for them). Governmental unions, same thing all the time.

But would Ted Kennedy have gotten Medicare, or Bush his Medicare drug benefit, enacted if they'd said "and with this great and wonderful new benefit program comes the big income tax increase needed now to pay for it on an actuarially sound basis". Guess they thought not, because they said instead: "Take it, it's free to you (for now ... and when the bill for it finally arrives, we'll be gone.)"

These are all good points. The understating of the costs of pension benefits is similar to understating of the costs of the Medicare Prescription Drug plan. Thomas Scully (of the Bush administration) told the actuary, Richard Foster, he would be fired if he gave the true cost to Congress. The actuary didn't give the true cost, the bill was passed and I believe the prescription plan still in effect as passed. Story here.

The NY situation is similar to when CEOs hire compensation consultants to determine CEO compensation. Compensation always goes up, imagine that.

BTW, when people compare the cost of the Iraq war to Medicare, I hope they are using the same time periods per John McCain.

So why are unions getting special attention here? Let me go out on a limb: I'm for checks and balances and against all malfeasance.

Jim Glass, you seem to be asserting that unions have a unique ability to fraudulently impose unfair costs on other people against their wills, and that therefore union acts of dishonesty deserve greater opprobrium than similar acts of dishonesty by government officials, corporate executives, etc. But this is factually wrong. When the Bush administration distorted the costs of the Medicare...

If you think I give the Bushies any kind of pass on their Part D, gosh ... who was that old cartoon character who used to say, "He don't know me very well, do he?"

The point is the government has far more power than private actors to commit such fiscal abuse, and government unions have far more power to influence the govt to do so on their behalf than do private sector unions, corporations, etc.

Unfunded benefits boil down in simplest terms to Ponzi schemes. When the back end comes due, "ouch". If the "ouch" lands in the private sector on the auto or steel industries or wherever, causing firms to go bust and people to lose jobs, in the big picture that's OK because other fiscally better-managed firms will pick up those resources and use them productively. That's why we have competitive markets. But when it lands in a big way through the govt, the resulting deadweight cost of the tax bill can drop an entire local or even national economy low in the water with no easy way out.

And before anyone objects "No Ponzi! Never a Ponzi scheme!", remember how the left used to actually brag and advertise that unfunded benefits are Ponzi schemes. Like Paul Samuleson's famous 1967 Newsday piece, "Social Security, a Ponzi Scheme that Works", quoting: The beauty of social insurance is that it is actuarially unsound. Everyone who reaches retirement age is given benefit privileges that far exceed anything he has paid in -- exceed his payments by more than ten times...!

Well, that beauty's sure gone away, never to return. ;-(

These Ponzi set-ups are hugely attractive to corporate and union heads and to politicians who will be gone by the time the back-end arrives. The "We won't be here then" rational of leaders creating them is a personal upset with me because back in my idealistic young puppy days in the business world I heard those words twice coming executive/union leaders sealing deals. To objections from the younger they said, "We'll be pensioned out of here in five years, we're solving our problems now, you can solve yours then." Both companies were gone in 10 years. It turned me into the bitter cynic I am today.

But when national politicians have the govt make these deals, the results are orders of magnitude worse.

"...when people compare the cost of the Iraq war to Medicare, I hope they are using the same time periods per John McCain."

The Iraq war is costing about $150 billion a year cash, give or take.

The one-year increase in the present value of the net liability for just the Medicare drug benefit is running around $400 billion annually ($447 billion in 2007) -- between twice and three times as much. Plus the start-up liability at present value was around $7 trillion. (Which ended Bush's credibility with any "fiscal responsibility arguments" in favor of private accounts in Social Security, etc.)

"The thing that I found most amazing is everybody thought the war in Iraq was a much bigger expenditure than the drug benefit. How could you possibly believe that?" -- Douglas Holtz-Eakin, former head of CBO, now McCain's advisor.

The drug benefit is only a small part of Medicare, of course. In 2007, the total one-year increase in its liability at present value was $1.75 trillion (to a total liability over 75-years at present value of $34 trillion). The corresponding one-year increase in Social Security's net liability was a piddling $300 billion at present value, merely twice the cost of the Iraq war. (All these numbers are from the 2007 Financial Report of the United States Government.)

When comparing Government handouts to private sector, please remember that only Government has the power to take your money at the point of a gun.
Don't think so? Try not paying your taxes, and see what happens.
This is why public sector unions pulling this kind of crap should make every tax payer angry, because they are the one that foots the new, bigger bill.
Oh wait, the rich need to pay more taxes anyway, so who cares, right?

The Iraq war is financed through current taxation and actual concurrent borrowing, all of which sources are continuously subject to congressional disapproval. Unfunded public employee benefits are stealth expenditures which as they become better understood, as in Vallejo, California, will ultimately lead to organized tax resistance by private sector taxpayers who must pay for but who themselves have nothing like the salary, work year/hours, job security and retirement benefits of public employees.

Unions are essential to the men and women who work in industries using heavy equipment and physics defying techniques. These employees need the protection of a union to do their jobs in a safe manner without fear of being replaced by a worker who'll do "anything" to get a job paying above minimum wage.

Public Employee unions are a far different matter. The bargainers on the other side of the table are elected officials who always cave in at the threat of teachers, firemen or police withholding their services from the taxpaying - and voting - public. In a rational world, a school janitor should not earn triple the wage and have a retirement plan many times more generous than his counterpart in the private sector. The public employee unions are able to deny opening school buildings in order to extract $45 per hour in wages and benefits for someone to sweep the floor. Politicians, mindful of the unions' ability to provide cash and labor at election time, pass on these outrageous labor costs to the taxpayer.

If the framers of the constitution had remotely foreseen public employee unions we would have
had;

Article #. No organization who's members are empowered to act within any official capacity of public office will organize, or otherwise collude to manipulate laws under consideration by the congress or executive branches to their own benefit, and any statute shown to be so compromised shall be modified by the courts until strict compliance with this principle is narrowly attained.

"Unions are essential to the men and women who work in industries using heavy equipment and physics defying techniques. These employees need the protection of a union to do their jobs in a safe manner without fear of being replaced by a worker who'll do "anything" to get a job paying above minimum wage."

LOL Ever heard of OSHA? Tort liability? Workers comp?

I used to work in union shops...as the temp who did all that dangerous work. Of course, the union guys joked and smoked all day while I risked my limbs. I also got to pay union dues for the time there. #$$% joke is what the unions were.

Based on the shops I saw, unions are BS rackets run by fat middle aged guys to make their lives easy. They could not care less about the employees outside their little cliques. The shop foreman (i.e., management) treated me way better than the union regulars.

Funny thing, though, is when I went to grad school, all sorts of people there had strong opinions on how unions protected the working man. Naturally, none of them knew any "working men" let alonw been inside a union shop.

To paraphrase "clueless", unions are very Monet: Nice from a distance, but pretty messed up when you get close to them.

Jerry Pournelle's Iron Law states that:
(a) Any organization have two fundamental kinds of members: those who care about the mission for which the organization was founded, and those who care about the organization.
(b) Over time, any organization will be dominated by the second kind of people.

I personally regard unions as a necessary evil (like lawyers or the military), but it is obvious to me that certain unions in the USA are textbook examples of (b).

It would be nice if the folks who bring up the prescription drug disaster would also list the Dems who objected to it because it cost too much.

What? Dems objected because it didn't go far enough (read "cost too little")?

That being the case, the bringing up the prescription drug plan as an argument for Dems is "Bush is horrible and we'd do worse".

Bush's grand failing on spending is that he cut the gap between Dems and previous Repubs. Dems have responded by increasing their demands, thus restoring the gap.

It would be nice if the folks who bring up the prescription drug disaster would also list the Dems who objected to it because it cost too much.

What? Dems objected because it didn't go far enough (read "cost too little")?

That being the case, the bringing up the prescription drug plan as an argument for Dems is "Bush is horrible and we'd do worse".

Bush's grand failing on spending is that he reduced the gap between Dems and previous Repubs. Dems have responded by increasing their demands, thus restoring the gap.

Megan seems to have hit a nerve. I'm glad she's raised this topic. It's been the fiscal elephant in the room for a long time. Many states have written protections for public employee pensions into their constitutions (this is a pretty good indicator of the priorities of state government). The whole retire with a pension at 50 thing is crazy. It's one thing to vest in 20 or 30 years, but folks should not be collecting these pensions till they are 62 or 65. Most private sector workers have 401Ks. I think Michigan state employees get the 401K now. The main benefit of the 401K is to force government to pay in full today for work that is done today. If we were to replace the pension system with a 401K style system I bet the employer match would have to be 100%+ - people would be shocked and outraged at the cost of the system.

I saw a recruitment commercial last night for a state agency which had as it's major hook pension eligibility at age 40!

Why are unions, public or private, required to pass any test for being a "public good"? Do corporations justify their existence in this way? No, they are explicitly organized as private actors within the public domain, with their only obligation being the financial interests of their shareholders, although they share the legal protections of humans, including the 1st and 14th Amendments of the Constitution. However, they are not constrained by the same moral, social, and environmental responsibilities as human beings.

Unions don't need to justify their existence as a social good any more than corporations do, but they do (somewhat) balance the interests of corporations in society. There would be no OSHA or workers comp laws unless workers had become militant enough to organize and form unions to demand them. So in a sense, the retention of social order allowed by the moderating influence of unions on employers and corporations is a public good. But that's not what gives them their right to exist.

Of course, if you're looking for a group that really considers itself entitled to unlimited public funds, look no further than military contractors. But most people would rather criticize those at their level of status or below, rather than those above.

"There would be no OSHA or workers comp laws unless workers had become militant enough to organize and form unions to demand them."

A "fact" (claim, really) that can be neither proven nor disproven. Thus, as a fact presented for purposes of supporting a conclusion, it is without relevance. You might as well be talking about what God wants us to do about unions.

"So in a sense, the retention of social order allowed by the moderating influence of unions on employers and corporations is a public good."

A conclusion unsupported by facts.

"Of course, if you're looking for a group that really considers itself entitled to unlimited public funds, look no further than military contractors."

Red herring.

"But most people would rather criticize those at their level of status or below, rather than those above."

Ad hominem.

Sowilo, Unions are monopolies of labor, which is why they have to pass the test. Just like we don't let companies have monopolies either.

Sowilo,

Two thoughts:

First, unions are not actually monopolies on labor, but the legal rules requiring employers to bargain with them effectively restrict the pool of labor that employers could contract with.

That benefit of forced negotiation under law is pretty unique in our nation, and unions should account to the public for this benefit. If the larger good is not served by giving unions this special status, take it away. (And watch unions fall apart fast...)

Second, I am guessing, but do not know for certain, that unions do not pay taxes on the revenue generated by taking membership dues.

If true, they receive a benefit (exemption from taxation) not offered to organizations collecting revenue unless the organization serves some larger social purpose.

It is perfectly fair, therefore, to inquire as to whether union actions warrant the special treatment not given to other revenue-generating entities, like corporations and ordinary people.

Most government corruption, like defense contracting and theft in Iraq are one time offenses, or they continue until discovered and then are punished.

One actuarial mistake -- or willful misrepresentation -- in a pension projection will cost the taxpayers forever, as long as there is someone with some income to take. And it is legal.

In many ways this is like global warming -- suppose the experts are wrong, or their models are off by a significant margin -- and we don't figure it out until after our heating and electric bills increase by 50%. Do we get a do over? Can we send the scientists to jail, or just suffer through?

Spartee--

"A "fact" (claim, really) that can be neither proven nor disproven. Thus, as a fact presented for purposes of supporting a conclusion, it is without relevance. You might as well be talking about what God wants us to do about unions."

"A conclusion unsupported by facts."

"Red herring."

"Ad hominem."

Sophistry. Let's analyze all the posts on this thread for logical fallacies and see where we end up (not that I agree with your analysis).

With regard to "special treatment" of unions as tax-exempt, they are non-profit organizations and thus are not subject to tax. The members' dues go to supporting their collective activity such as bargaining and contract administration, and they are heavily regulated to make sure that no profit-oriented (or political) activity is supported by union dues.

Aaron--

Unions are monopolies of labor in the same way that each employer is a monopoly of employment--which do you think has more power? Employers rights are supported by U.S. laws much more restrictive on labor than on employers, at least since the Taft-Hartley bill was passed over Truman's veto.

Karl Weber,

Corporations are as evil as unions? Let's see.

Is Enron still in business today? No, it was punished by the market. Are the NY State Employee Unions still in business? Thought so.

How many corporations are pulling an Enron? Very few, and even then only until they get caught. But squeezing the taxpayers for all they are good for is the module operandi of unions, and getting caught costs them very little. As you and the likes of you demonstrate, Catholics will give up on the pope before (most) Liberals face up to the truth of unions.

Finally, how many Republicans are advocating for Enron? Or Worldcom? That's right.
How many Democrats eagerly stick the public with huge liabilities at the behest of the unions? Practically all of them.

Sorry to shatter your illusions, but there's still work for you to do before you can debate with the grown-ups.

"Unions are monopolies of labor in the same way that each employer is a monopoly of employment--which do you think has more power?"

Hmmm, a simple test would be to check the wages and benefits of corporations with and without unions in the same industry.

If the companies are more powerful than the unions, then the wages and benefits will be about the same. If the unions have more power, than the non-unionized firms will have lower wages and benefits.

I think the test will show the Unions seems to hold some power within firms. What happens is that non-unionized firms domestic or foreign will eventually eat them for lunch.

Joe, it would be nice if you read and understood the point of my comment before trying to refute it. Megan's post cited ONE EXAMPLE of a union-affiliated person committing an act of fraud, and used this--as she often does--to bash unions in general. My comment was simply intended to point out how unfair and illogical this is--just as using Enron to tar all corporations would be unfair. (And of course I did nothing of the kind.)

In your comment, you say, "But squeezing the taxpayers for all they are good for is the module operandi of unions, and getting caught costs them very little." I know that many people believe this, but the facts are that when unions have relatively more power, most people are better off. Simply making assertions about how bad unions are isn't a very compelling argument.

[T]he facts are that when unions have relatively more power, most people are better off. Simply making assertions about how bad unions are isn't a very compelling argument.

Making assertions on how good unions are isn't a very compelling argument either. What proof is there that strong unions make most people better off? Remember, most people are not union members.

If your assertion is that strong unions make union members better off, that I could agree with. But do strong unions benefit non-union members? I don't think strong public sector unions make taxpayers better off, strong auto workers unions make car buyers better off, etc.

Do you have anything to support that position, or have I misinterpreted you?

Karl,

At least 11 acts of fraud. With the complacent consent of the legislature. In a state where this is true:

"The stakes are especially high on pension bills, because under the State Constitution, once public workers are granted pension benefits, they cannot be reduced, even if they cost much more than expected."

(from the article)


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