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09 Jul 2008 11:17 am

James Poulos notes that California legislators are betting that their rich citizens have too many social and economic ties to the state to leave. In the short term, they're probably right. But in the longer term, it's not so clear. The real question for California will be, do they get new rich people to replace the current crop? Or do high taxes impede capital formation, and encourage entrepreneurs to site their companies everywhere.

Contra the more dogmatic Republicans, I don't think it's obvious that the answer is "yes". California has a lot of complementary assets, especially its coastal location, that make it attractive to locate there. But as many European countries are finding out, even a very attractive location is not desirable at any price.

Part of the problem with these questions is that there is often a tipping point. The tax policies and so forth often look like they aren't costing the state any growth--right up to the point that a whole bunch of companies relocate at once, and build the kind of complementary cluster (finance, tech, media) that has been driving your economy in some more business-friendly clime. The same factors that made it hard to drive those companies out will make it hard to get them back once they've moved.

Though I'd assign air conditioning the larger role, in part this is what drove the movement south that devastated the Rust Belt. And it's telling that fifty years later, places like Buffalo are still saddled with a tax-and-spend system that they literally can't afford--the city recently ended up in receivership despite large transfers from the state government.

Comments (47)

Another point to consider is that it's usually easier and cheaper to move a service business than it is to move a manufacturing business. If tax policies helped drive hard-to-move factories out of the Rust Belt, just imagine what they might do to California's easy-to-move service industries.

California's government is nearing the point of financial collapse. It is in a deep, deep hole at the beginning of a recession. If the recession is harsh, and I think it will be, the state government goes bankrupt- and they won't be the only ones.

I assume this is what you meant is, Republicans are being dogmatic when they claim that high taxes impede capital formation a lot or that they encourage entrepreneurs to go elsewhere a lot. Clearly it's not dogmatic to say that charging people more money for being in a particular location doesn't encourage them to stay. At the margin, this is obviously true. (Unless you're saying that those taxes are able to create the reasons for someone to stay or invest, and in particular that marginally lower taxes would in fact lead to lower services and complementarities. But even here, the taxes could always fall on someone else. This is especially true when we talk about taxes on capital, which is more elastic than a lot of things.)


Megan and Peter,

You are completely and utterly out of your mind on this one. The biggest difference between California and the Rust Belt is THE WEATHER!!! There is a huge incentive to living in San Diego. It's absolutely beautiful weather 350 days a year! It's theoretically possible to tax San Diegans to levels where Buffalo may look attractive, but those would have to be otherworldly taxes, completely out of the realm of what's being discussed now. And don't tell me Florida or Texas have comparable weather. They don't. Florida is disgusting in summer, as is Texas. The fact is, California has BY FAR the best climate in the country and will be attractive to anyone, regardless of tax policy.


The Bay Area software companies strike me as particularly movable. The creative cluster there is hardly unique (similar but smaller ones exist in Seattle, Austin, and Boston), and the nature of the work makes them really easy to move (many software developers can perform their work literally anywhere they can open a laptop).

Hollywood, on the other hand, is probably not going anywhere. It's cluster is simply too unique, and relies on too many independent contractors who don't exist anywhere else.

As California becomes too expensive or less desirable, its wealthiest residents are increasingly willing to trade coastal scenery for mountain scenery, and take up residence in Aspen, Vail, and Snowmass. (While residents there increasingly find they can't afford the taxes on a $5 million dollar property that has now become a $50 million property, and flee with their millions to Telluride and Steamboat.)

Fortunately, Denver turns bluer with every election cycle and the state already has somewhat shaky financial underpinnings (in part because of TABOR), so in due time, I am confident that Colorado will similarly destroy itself with tax policy, chasing those people to the next up and coming locales.

The City of Buffalo has had budgetary surpluses for the past 4 consecutive years, mostly as a result of the state-imposed control board.

The real problem is not the city of buffalo, but the entire state of NY. The problems of Buffalo are no different than those of Syracuse, Rochester, or Binghampton. We're the most heavily taxed state in the nation, and basically run by the unions. It's an entirely unfriendly atmosphere for business.

citizen(world)- weather may help keep businesses in California, but only to a point. Eventually, money becomes a bigger factor.

I think it would all depend on what the money is being spent on.

For example, I would argue that Newton, MA (an affluent Boston suburb) gets its money's worth out of the $9,275 per student it spends. Washington DC is not getting its money's worth out of the $13,330 it is spending.

I could imagine a state with high taxes that offers wide traffic free and billiard table smooth roads competing against fast and efficient public transports, state of the art ports and airports, top notch public schools, and a state government eager to help people and business succeed.

They key is for the people who are paying the taxes need to feel they are getting their money's worth. If they feel it's being wasted it doesn't work.

"Nice weather" = no rain. Good luck fighting with AZ, NV, UT, NM, and Mexico for your scraps from the Colo. River. It's only going to get worse in the coming years.

Mention taxes and the Pavlovian conservatives can only come up with one response: Less is more ! As if taxes are imposed in a vacuum (or some theoretical test laboratory).

By their reasoning, Russia should be an ideal destination for the doctrinaire. Not only a low tax rate, but a flat tax at that. Ideological heaven.

But of course it's not an ideal destination because not all other things are equal. And - surprise, surprise, surprise - those 'not equal' considerations get factored into the equation.

Matt B:

Southern California will eventually 1) recycle their treated wastewater instead of dumping it into the ocean and 2) finally build those nuclear desalinization plants.

jmo:

You've hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately, your imagination is rather unrealistic. Government==Wasteful. It's what they do.

In other words, what jmo said.

Another point to consider is that it's usually easier and cheaper to move a service business than it is to move a manufacturing business.

Which is why all the New York law firms have relocated to Hackensack.

For example, I would argue that Newton, MA (an affluent Boston suburb) gets its money's worth out of the $9,275 per student it spends. Washington DC is not getting its money's worth out of the $13,330 it is spending.

I don't know much about the DC schools, and what I know isn't positive, but I would point out that this is really an apples-to-oranges comparison. The Newton, Mass. public schools serve a student population that is about as good as it gets: extremely motivated parents, few learning disabilities, vanishingly few students from low income households or households where Engish is not a first language. All things being equal, you would expect to pay considerably more per student to educate the DC student population than the Newton student population.

For example, I would argue that Newton, MA (an affluent Boston suburb) gets its money's worth out of the $9,275 per student it spends. Washington DC is not getting its money's worth out of the $13,330 it is spending.

I don't know much about the DC schools, and what I know isn't positive, but I would point out that this is really an apples-to-oranges comparison. The Newton, Mass. public schools serve a student population that is about as good as it gets: extremely motivated parents, few learning disabilities, vanishingly few students from low income households or households where Engish is not a first language. All things being equal, you would expect to pay considerably more per student to educate the DC student population than the Newton student population.

BobW - I've lived in MA and CA. The state taxes (income and sales) are about 40% higher in CA. 5% vs 7%. I would argue that MA gets far more from our 5% than CA gets from their 7%.

IIRC, something like 45,000 taxpayers are responsible for about half of California's income tax revenues, so I guess the question is how many of this small number will relocate if rates increase.

Two points of history might be of interest. The first is that 40 or more years ago New York State,during the Harriman administration, took the same approach to taxation and the immobility of its industries. It instituted high taxes on people and industries,matched in part by the higher taxes imposed by the Lindsay administration in New York City. Over the next ten years manufacturing fled New York State. New York City once had 750,000 people in manufacturing; now it has less than 200,000. Industries will move if they perceive that they are overtaxed and underappreciated. It may be harder to move manufacturing jobs, but it is clearly,from the New York State experience, not impossible. It usually starts with the location decision on the next facilities upgrade.

New York City also lost many headquarters service jobs when the savings and loan bust in Texas made substantial amounts of good office space available at very low costs in the late 80s and early 90s. We may have the same phenomenon again,as commercial real estate collapses in Florida and other places with low cost housing available. There will be California businesses that see the opportunity to move to Las Vegas beneficial for both the firm and their employees, who can access lower cost housing opportunities.

A lot of the "nice weather" some people are applying to the entire state of California doesn't exist outside of the southern coastal areas. The eastern portion of the state is a mixture of arid deserts and snowy mountains. From San Francisco on up, the western coast gets rain about nine months out of the year. That's where LA/SD gets a lot of their water through irrigation, not the Colorado River.

Ike:
Stop the nonsense. Look at the Federal Government, especially 2001-2006. Everything can't be blamed on the unions. If you elected incompetents to government, incompetence is what you'll get. In the words of Toots Shor, "Stop advertisin' yer ignorance!!"

JKC,

But it isn't ignorance to lay a lot of blame on the unions when writing about the financial ineptitude of New York, which is what Ike was actually writing about.

"Nice weather" = no rain. Good luck fighting with AZ, NV, UT, NM, and Mexico for your scraps from the Colo. River. It's only going to get worse in the coming years."

Good point, as far as it applies. LA is in that boat, but that scenario hardly applies to core California.

"California's government is nearing the point of financial collapse."

This absolutely true, and it is having a really bad impact on quality of life.

As for the effects of weather, if the talented people who make Silicon Valley go are the same sort of people as make Boston a center for high tech, then Rust Belt weather is not much of a detractor. Boston is hardly a garden spot.

Boston's great if you actually like winter. Lots of people do, or at least they like a clear rotation of the seasons. All the seasons in New England have something to recommend them, although spring there is kind of short for my tastes.

A lot of the "nice weather" some people are applying to the entire state of California doesn't exist outside of the southern coastal areas.

I can remember many times being socked in and waiting for the fog to lift while I was in flight training in the southern coastal areas. It's nice, but not that nice.

One other thing to consider is that it isn't just taxes, but regulation as well. I grew up in SoCal, but my family moved out of state when the increasing licensing & regulation burdens (arguably, just another "tax" by a different name) made for much less opportunity in my father's small business.

I have family who run a manufacturing company in Buffalo, and what they've told me about the economic and political climate in New York State jibes exactly with what Ike said above. High taxes, onerous regulations, and corrupt gridlock in Albany. Essentially, the powers-that-be (big corporations, big finance, big unions, and the pols) got together and transformed the state into a place with enormous built-in costs of doing business.

Why haven't my kin closed shop and moved elsewhere? Because they were last ones standing in their industry after the recessions and taxes crushed everyone else. Now, the City of Buffalo has more than 17,000 vacant buildings. Most of the young people with any talent leave after high school and never return. While not all of that can be blamed on the tax environment, a good bit of it can, and it certainly is an enormous roadblock to recovery.

Um... Prop 13 anyone?
You CANT raise taxes in California on real estate. Which is one of the reasons the budget has been so disfunctional. I mean, you can raise them, but only with a supermajority, and the republicans out there are die hard no tax fanatics.
People who own $5 million masions pay a few thousand in property taxes. Although taxes can be reassessed when property changes hands.
Also, a prime draw of LA and San Francisco are the cultural components (concerts, art galleries, clubs, hipsters, scensters, hollywood, etc). Real estate is not fungible; you can't replace geography and culture. You can only move to a different house/apartment in a different geography/culture.

agorabum,

California's state and local tax burden, today, is more than it was in 1977, before prop 13, and, yet, the hole in the budget is gargantuan.

I live in the most taxed state in the US, Connecticut, and we can't even keep the potholes from linking up into highway ditches. I just don't see the "solution" in ever higher taxes.

There is a huge incentive to living in San Diego. It's absolutely beautiful weather 350 days a year! It's theoretically possible to tax San Diegans to levels where Buffalo may look attractive, but those would have to be otherworldly taxes, completely out of the realm of what's being discussed now.

Well, two points in response to that. First, we're not talking about individuals, but, rather about businesses. As a business, there are a number of factors that figure into a decision on where to site a facility. Quality of life for employees is only one of them (and probably not the most important). I mean, if weather was so overwhelmingly important, why is Silicon Valley located in Northern California, which has comparatively worse weather?

Second, I think you're wrong in your assertion that San Diego climate is superior to any other climate in the world. Climate preferences are affected by a number of factors that vary from person to person. I know many here in Minnesota who enjoy the bitterly cold winters. Heck, I think I'm starting to turn into one of them myself!

From quantcicle (pun intended):

I know many here in Minnesota who enjoy the bitterly cold winters. Heck, I think I'm starting to turn into one of them myself!

That is just sick, sick I say!

"If tax policies helped drive hard-to-move factories out of the Rust Belt, just imagine what they might do to California's easy-to-move service industries."

You don't have to imagine it, just read about the rise and fall of Boston's Route 128 and the "Massachusetts Miracle." It is not for nothing that the state was (and sometimes still is) called Taxachusetts.

Megan,

Your post is rather disingenous in that it uses an apples to oranges comparison to make a dubious point. You begin your post by chiding California for potentially driving away the wealthy top earners because of higher taxes. Then you cite Buffalo NY as an example of high taxes driving away industry. However, the two situations are not analogous and you probably know it. Buffalo NY, like most municipalities, generates most of its tax revenue from property taxes and not income taxes like California. If Buffalo raised property taxes, it would drive the wealthy homeowners outside the city limits rather than to the sunbelt. Are you seriously suggesting that is what happened?

Native of Santee, California (Eastern San Diego County) here, who has since relocated to East Tennessee precisely because I was tired of being overtaxed and hyper-regulated. IIRC, the 2000 census was the first one to show California with a net loss of emigrants vs. immigrants, and it's only gotten worse since then. I left in 2003, and was one of four in my own little circle of professional acquaintances who were doing so.

BobW: There has been reclamation of wastewater in Southern California since 1959 -- Google "Santee Lakes" if you want to see the history of it. Local lore held that our little town played host to lots of Saudi princes and Israeli engineers wanting to study our lakes. Me, I just fished in 'em.

And re: the climate in San Diego. I know it well. It's absolutely perfect most of the year, for about five miles inland from the beach. But once you get past that five-mile stretch, you are NOT in the "perfect climate" any more. Most of the county is hot in the spring, summer, and fall. It would routinely get above 100 in my backyard from late April through October, and 110-115 was not unheard of at all. I find the climate in Tennessee a good bit more congenial, humidity and all, since I don't scorch my hand opening my car door anymore.

Freddiemac,

I think she is leaving it to the reader to know that Buffalo is in New York, which has a very high state and local tax burden (significantly higher than California's). People taxed to their limits in Buffalo could not escape by moving out of the city limits, but had to move out of the state altogether.

What did in rust belt cities like Buffalo and Clevland was as much as anything their reasons for existing went away. Take Buffalo for example. No please take Buffalo. Buffalo was built because it was the end of the Erie Canal. Later, it was near the hydroelectric plants at Niagra falls and it was one of the first cites to have cheap electricity. Now, the St. Lawarence Seaway has long since eliminated the need to use the Erie cannel and everywhere has cheap electricity. There is no real reason for there to be a large city in Bufalo anymore. The same is true for Cleveland and big port cities like Baltimore and New Orleans (ports don't employ large numbers of people anymore and there are not many sailors on modern ships).

California since it has great weather and scenery and will always be a desireable place to live for its own sake, won't ever have the problems that Clevland and Buffalo have. Also, no matter how bad it gets, it will always be preferable to Mexico. The people who are screwed in California are the middle class. They will continue to flee in droves. The rich can afford the taxes and the gated communities and body guards to keep the Mexicans out and places like La Joya and Monterey will always be too nice for the rich to pass up. Basically California is going to turn into a third world country with a small middle class, vast immigrant underclass and exclusive super rich elite.

I think this was Regan's platform in '67

@Joe Klein's conscience

what happens at the federal level has nothing to do with NYS, ...instead of calling me ignorant, why don't you do some investigation. It would be hard to overstate the impact that unions, particularly municipal unions, have on the operations of NYS government.

start here:
http://www.buffalonews.com/149/story/386663.html

Though I'd assign air conditioning the larger role,

Through Carrier, upstate New York sowed the seeds of its own destruction, one might say.

Re: The same is true for Cleveland and big port cities like Baltimore and New Orleans

Believe it or not a lot of trade still goes through ports. How else does it proceed in or out of the country? Very little is airlifted after all, and while we can truck stuff to/from Canada and Mexico there's no where else we can reach by land.
Cleveland however was never a major port: its chief industry was steel, and its position on Lake Erie was mainly useful for waste disposal purposes. New Orleans on the other hand was and is a major port; just as in the days of Jefferson practically the entire water-borne commerce of the Mississippi watershed passes through it.

Southern california is very interesting climate-wise . I was looking to see if such a climate existed somewhere in China, but I found out that the Mediterranean climate is pretty rare - only available in the Med, California, some areas of Australia, and that's about it.

Also, maybe someone should note that the tech companies aren't in San Diego, but in the bay area which has nice weather but not quite so-cal.

Southern california is very interesting climate-wise . I was looking to see if such a climate existed somewhere in China, but I found out that the Mediterranean climate is pretty rare - only available in the Med, California, some areas of Australia, and that's about it.

Also, see South Africa. Of course, SA has other problems.

And what does John mean that California will always be better than Mexico. California WAS mexico. If appropriate immigration and government can make half of mexico into California, there is no reason the other half can't do it. It only took about 50 years the first time.

Upstate NY does not have cheap electricity. In its infinite wisdom, the state allocated the cheap hydropower to its favored industries. Evidently it wasn't cheap enough to offset the taxes and regulations. The industries left anyway.

Why not change it? Upstate New Yorkers have very little influence over the state government. We have no initiative, referendum or recall. The state is essentially run by the governor, assembly and senate leaders. I saw a figure once that said 1 in 7 New Yorkers workers was some sort of government employee. I believe it. Taxes are high, public debt is out of control, and it will likely end badly. Then again, in the long run, we are all dead.

Why stay? The last man standing comment applies here. Yes, the weather can be bad at times, but put it in perspective. We have almost no tornados, fires, floods, mudslides, earthquakes, etc. Our weather rarely kills people. I don't need air conditioning in my house. Rush hour traffic here is what you would consider nonexistent. We don't have water shortages, ever. Twenty percent of the world's fresh water is in the Great Lakes. I bet I have gone years without waiting for more than one turn of a traffic light even once. I have a ten minute commute to work. I can go two weeks on a tank of gas in my Honda Civic. If gas went to $10 a gallon, I could still afford it. My house plus property taxes is a manageable 10% of my income. Crime is low.

I am working at the same place I started, over 30 years ago. People with jobs generally do OK. So, if your time is valuable to you, and if you are satisfied with the choices available in a smaller metropolitan area, this isn't really bad living.

Maybe the bad reputation is a good thing for those of us who live here.

MarkD, where do you live in NYS that you don't need an air conditioner during summer? I live in Brooklyn, and I would melt without my AC. Granted, everything in the city radiates heat at night, but I also grew up in upstate NY, and I remember the summers as hot and humid.

I agree with everything else you've said about the positives of upstate NY, though. It's beautiful, and the one upside to the high NYS taxes is that the roads and highways are very well maintained, so it's not difficult to travel even when there's 3 feet of snow on the ground. But it is sad the way the businesses have left. I remember 2 plants closing near my home, and the Rome Air Force base getting downsized. Lots of jobs were lost, and lots of people had to relocate, which naturally diminishes the area's diversity. I would never go back, because there's nothing there for me to go back to.

"Nice weather" = no rain. Good luck fighting with AZ, NV, UT, NM, and Mexico for your scraps from the Colo. River. It's only going to get worse in the coming years.

MattB, this is a bit short sighted. No rain = less water, which makes it harder to support a growing population. My parents used to live in Colorado, and plan to retire there, but noted that the state is allowing growth at an irresponsible rate. Basically, the towns are legally obligated to find water without the ability to limit growth. This is a recipe for environmental disaster.

The reasoned response to CA's excessive tax and regulatory burden has been in process for 20 years - since the semiconductor companies removed their fabrication plants, first to the Southwest states and then the the Far East. Intel(among others) has significant real estate formerly dedicated to fab and test in the Silicon Valley. Employing thousands of people in various good jobs. Water regulation and labor costs (worker's comp anyone?) and state tax costs make it impossible to produce profitably here.

So- the state now has a radically bifurcated economy: the extremely wealthy (paying >50% of all taxes) who are able to insulate themselves from the inconvenience and discomfort of the aggravations of daily life (kids in wretched schools, impossible pressures on medical providers, increasing gang presence, closed public facilities like community pools and miserable roads for example) and everyone else - many of whom are illegal and receiving services paid for by the taxpayers.

NY in the 1970's - how did that work out for you?
Those of us who can afford to are leaving - we have professions which are portable and we will set up shop elsewhere - ala Intel. People do vote with their feet - including businesses.

Silicon valley has changed a lot in the last two decades. It used to be hardware-oriented; they built chips. The bay area had a big defense industry component. That's all gone now and it's software-oriented.

To be fair, there are a lot less manufacturing jobs everywhere these days. But a lot of manufacturing simply moved to other US states.

"Nice weather" = no rain. Good luck fighting with AZ, NV, UT, NM, and Mexico for your scraps from the Colo. River. It's only going to get worse in the coming years.

The overwhelming majority of California's water use goes to agriculture, which produces only a fraction of the state's GDP. If California loses access to water, the result will be less agriculture in the state (and fewer, and lower-quality, fruits and vegetables for other US states during winter months). And, come to think of it, probably less illegal immigration too.

maybe someone should note that the tech companies aren't in San Diego

There are numerous tech companies here, Qualcomm being the largest. We don't have as many as the Bay Area, but we have quite a few. There are also a lot of medical and biotech companies here.