Ta-Nehisi Coates has a good post on why, yes, black people can call eachother "nigger" and white people can't. It's the same reason that my Jewish friends can make complain about their cheap relatives, why my female friends and I can call each other "bitch" when not even my closest male friends are allowed to deploy the word, and for that matter why I can't call your mohter "Mom" and you can't call my boyfriend "darling". Context matters. It is not the job of black people to set an example for whites on this score. They are not raising us.
In a side note, he hates white people who use "the n-word" as a euphemism. I have to say, I cringed, because I'm sure I've said it to him. But as far as I can remember, I've spoken the actual word aloud exactly once, when I was in kindergarten, and my mother slapped me so hard that my head fell off and I had to carry it with me to school like a lunchbox for three weeks.
I suspect that most white people who can't speak the dread name aloud, even as an example, have a similar history--an atavistic intuition that lightning will smite you if it passes your lips. But now that I think about it, the "n word" locution is pretty grating. You shouldn't dress up a racial epithet in the kind of cutesy euphemism you use when potty training three year olds.
Your friend Ta-Nehesi is a great guy. He is right. Context is everything. I have used "nigger" to friends with negroid features and skin, but only in the context of what amounts to a gentle, teasing rebuke. "Bitch" used to my female friends (I am male heterosexual) is a bit more robust as a comment, but sometimes passes naturally and smoothly into a conversation. "Darling" to another man's wife is just mild sarcasm, on the rare occasions when it fits. "Honky", "Goat", "Jackass", "Tom-cat", "Dahrrrling" and so on come back at me from time to time just as naturally (Though someone did try to apologise once for calling me "Honky". After an hour's drinking and arguing, we finally agreed that he now knew me well enough for the epithet to be OK.)
Is there any point in ruling a whole word out of one's vocabulary in all circumstances?
What are his feelings on white people using the word "ghetto"?
I've occasionally heard young white men addressing each other by that word.
I oppose white people using the word "ghetto." In fact, I propose white people having to use the "g-word." Seriously, I don't much care, but I could see how there could be a problem. As I allude to in the post, I try to stay from "You might be a redneck if..." jokes. Likewise, if I were white, I'd probably avoid "You might be ghetto if..." jokes.
Thanks for the link, Megan.
The problem is, the context should be in the way it's said, not who is saying it. If I call a woman friend a bitch to tease, she doesn't get mad. If I'm saying it to be mean, well then she'll slug me. The problem with the word "nigger" is that the word itself is off-limits for white people. Even if a white person says it in the same, joking way that black people say it, it's wrong.
And I thought the whole point of the race issue was that we should be color-blind - it shouldn't matter what color people's skin is, it's their actions that define them. Shouldn't the same apply to the language? And like anything with language, the "context" should come from the words around the "bad" word, and we should ignore the skin color of the person saying it.
I seem to recall a movement in the African American community trying to remove the "n word" from the lexicon. I think it culminated with a symbolic funeral for the n-word (yes I will call it that go cry me a river) in Detroit. Really, who uses that word?
A good Jewish friend of mine once told me that when in College (he went to Emory in Atlanta) he went to (I think) a Georgia Tech college football game.
He sat in the stands with GT students (I think he was there GT student friends), and at one point a black GT player did a great play.
One of the white GT students got up and yelled "Them's my Nigger's!!" while clearly ecstatic for the good play.
There's probably some (a lot of?) racism involved in the use of the word nigger above, but it's an interesting enough anecdote that I wanted to share it.
Ah, memories. I was about 4 years old when I called our black once a week maid, "Ni...".
When she became furious and asked me why I used that word, I replied, "That's what Daddy calls you all the time."
So, at the tender age of 4, I got in huge trouble both from the maid and my dad for simply doing as I had observed.
Aren't "redneck" and "ghetto" more cultural than racial? "N*gger" and "white trash" are undeniably racial, but "redneck" and "ghetto" are more descriptive of a lifestyle than anything.
I'll promise Mr. Coates that I'll stop using the term "n-word" if he promises to give me a job after I become unemployable the first time any person other than a very close friend or family member overhears me use the full word in even the most academic of contexts.
I disagree with Ta-Nehisi Coates. Just because some has a reason to sympathize with a particular name is not a reason to be able to use it. Politeness is the grease that allows us to interact with each other. All those names bring an excessive amount of baggage with them above and beyond what is meant. Like swearing, name calling is the sign of a lazy mind. But it would be impolite to say that to a person, so I keep my mouth shut and try not to make a face.
I find the n-word thoroughly offensive. No, not the word "n-word", which is little more than a Tupperware-container word for containing something in an imperfect attempt to keep the odor out / freshness in. "N-word" is a way of making the contained word into the topic of conversation. But you can't plausibly wield it in the same way. Telling someone, "Yo, n-word, whassup?" seems unlikely to cause anything but befuddlement.
I can remember people here, in this very white neck of the backwoods, often using the n-word to describe those "other" minority people pejoratively. And the word still hurts my sensitive eyes and ears, no matter how much watching The Wire on HBO may have partly desensitized me. Or listening to comedians like Richard Pryor or Eddie Murphy back in their stand-up days.
You might make a convincing argument that the word could be used amongst intimate peers, if everyone involved understands the intended usage. But is using it noisily in public places really okay? It doesn't seem so to me.
This I say as a colorless, odorless semi-Kraut...
Really, who uses that word?
Apparently, lots of black people.
"N*gger" and "white trash" are undeniably racial, but "redneck" and "ghetto" are more descriptive of a lifestyle than anything.
According to Chris Rock, it's also descriptive of a lifestyle.
So if we can't say the n-word and we can't say "the n-word", what are we supposed to say when we're talking about the word?
So the white folk aren't supposed to say "nigger" and it's just grating and cutesy to replace it on those rare occassions when it might be necessary to say it with "n-word" so... if it ever comes up white people should pretend to be mute? Or just go into a coughing fit? Or look pained and awkward, 'cause, you know, that's how white people are?
What if you're half-black but don't look all that black? Can you use it? Maybe just sometimes? Perhaps we could have a government council to review borderline cases and decide on a case-by-case basis if someone is black enough to use the word? Or should we just rely on social ostracism by the black community to do the job? Use the word and have an appalled silence follow -- you're not black enough. Use the word and get it used back with a sign of cordiality -- you pass as black. Use the word and get the ever-loving life beaten out of you --what were you thinking whitey?
Is it okay for Jewish folk to use the word "ghetto"? You know, seeing as they have some history with the word and all.
And is it okay for white folk to use the word "ghetto" if they pronounce it with a soft "j" sound? (like "jetto") 'Cause I love that word. But maybe I'm secretly a horrible racist and I just don't know it...
So if we can't say the n-word and we can't say "the n-word", what are we supposed to say when we're talking about the word?
"The Word That Cannot Be Spoken."
Or maybe "The Word Formerly Known as the N-Word."
I LOVE the fact that people propose to tell me what I can say or do because of my skin color. Love it, love it, love it!
I LOVE the fact that people propose to tell me what I can say or do because of my skin color. Love it, love it, love it!
This is one of those topics that illuminates the person making an observation perhaps rather more than the topic being discussed. So we segregate ourselves rather quickly and next we might start to hit each other over the head etc. except for being inhibited. Let me try this out: it is a word for a person which carries a negative externality toward other people. I have only been called a tribal word, "Mickey D," by a black person. That tends to segregate me into other Mickey D's and set us up to vie for dominance/ control vis-a-vis other tribes. I think also the word you refer to, more powerful than the word G-d in our culture, is perpetuated as a tribal word by its users.
One group of people constantly using the word, while another group of people is not allowed to use it makes for some clumsy social interactions. I think we'd all be better off if black people would collectively just find something else to call each other, and the word regained full taboo status. What was wrong with "my nizzle," anyway? Snoop was onto something, people.
megan's argument here is lost on me. It is certainly ok for someone to call another person a bitch. It is also certainly ok for a white, blue or green person to use the word ghetto, as that word has a very definite definition, which definition is wholly irrelevant to blacks' feelings about the word.
I imagine there were quite a few white people who had trouble asking for or referring to this book by Randall Kennedy.
I imagine there were quite a few white people who had trouble asking for or referring to this book by Randall Kennedy.
They are words and nothing more. Use them how you please. There are much more serious things in life to worry about.
Considering the realities of human behavior, this sort of double standard ha some real problems. It’s as if black people, or at least those who share this view, are saying, ‘Do as I say, not as I do.’ That approach may have real moral and ethical justification, but it almost never works.
People should say whatever they want, to whoever they want and let the consequences fall where they may; whether those consequences be an uncomfortable silence, being socially ostracized, or getting punched in the face.
To make an economic metaphor: this is a situation where correct pricing may be a better way to deal with the problem than with an overt ban.
And I thought the whole point of the race issue was that we should be color-blind
Nope. Equality under the law and recognition of people as equals in societal interaction does not mean pretending difference does not exist. Acknowledge it; honor it; don't try to homogenize it out of existence.
They are words and nothing more
Nope. Or, alternately: yes, they are words, but your implication that words are insignificant entities whose use doesn't have serious consequences is wrong.
It's still a shock to hear that word (in a bar that David Brooks would write about yet never visit; from a friend of a parent). Knocks me right over every time. Same with lame euphemisms ("African engineering" was a new to me phrase I had to lecture a frat boy about). One can't help but notice that these are all uttered by people who vote Republican. Gee, I wonder why.
Exactly. Who's the racist bastard now?
Start telling me what I can and can't do and we're going to have some very unfriendly conversations. I'm not your nigger.
Nigger? Kike? They're words. The the fuck over it. If a word can control your emotions so much, you apparently don't have enough self-control to be a functioning part of society. Please off yourself or leave the country so that those of us who have functioning brains and working impulse-control can advance unimpeded. The rest of us are being dragged down because you can't handle reality.
Really, no "Bitch" at all? It seems to've become sort of tamed as a word (whereas the c-word appears to be the one you don't use). Some years ago I pacified a female friend on this score by pledging to make firm attempts to use "bitch" when referring to (fellow straight) men, and I continue to persue equality in this regard.
I don't use the n-word aloud because I've been yelled at and called a racist for perfectly innocuous opinions, such as thinking that admissions to law school ought to be truly colorblind. What makes you think I want to compound that by using a well-known offensive word?
I think you're both wrong.
The best way to end discrimination is to...
End discrimination. Nobody gets a free pass based on group membership. We are all individuals. We should each be accountable for our words and actions as individuals.
Further, it's very un-libertarian to assert group priveleges based on race, gender, etc.
As to your example about your boyfriend and mother... That is VERY different. People choose to be in commited relationshops. People have close personal bonds with their families that are enshrined in all manner of laws (probate, e.g.).
But simply being Jewish, black, female... That is an accident of birth. Allowing people to mock their own kind (and ONLY their own kind) only exacerbates the problem of thnic & religious tensions.
This country works best as a melting pot. We're all assimilating together, not separately.
It seems that referring to a female friend using "bitch" as a joke could be (I didn't say is always) still objectionable.
If she objects, then the label sticks. If not, then she's an easy-going person who "can take a joke." I could see how a woman who found it objectionable to be joked about in this way might feel pressured to act like it was OK.
So I wouldn't do it.
Context may be important, but is the only factor of context the race/gender of the person saying whatever taboo word? For example, NOT only my female friends can say 'bitch', it's just not appropriate to be used negatively, or by someone I don't know. Which brings up the issue of stereotyping: isn't it a bit unfair to assume that anyone black is going to be perfectly comfortable with it? I know plenty of people who don't want to hear it, even as a term of endearment. It is pretty awful to assume that everyone of one race (or gender, or religion...)is going to have the same opinion.
Maybe we come from different backgrounds, but my Nana never slapped me for using a word, she just told me not to. I've said the word 'nigger', aloud, plenty of times. I've never used it in reference to a person, and I think that's what makes the difference. I cannot understand, for the life of me, how it is offense to use a word when referring to it. Words are not inherently offensive, but it looks like everyone has forgotten this fact.
These discussions are often pointless. True, if you try to sit down and draw a flowchart or schematic of who is permitted to say what in which context, you'll find the task to be impossible. Well, it is impossible, but not because of racial politics, but because social relationships are complicated. Essentially, we're just talking about being polite. Take race out of it: everyone would agree that you don't tell a joke about taking the short bus to school in front of a mentally-impaired kid, nor would you call him "retard." You wouldn't engage in mock stuttering in front of a stutterer. Etc.
Unless ... the context allowed it. The difference between rude people and polite people is that polite people are generally better capable of determining what would offend, and they avoid it. Rude people can't, or just don't.
It's a convenient forgetfulness.
The sad truth is that there is political/social power in victimhood. Still not sure when it started, but damn I'd like it to end. Due to it, we have groups competing to become the biggest victims, the "oppression Olympics" that went on during the nomination.
Competing to be the worst off... And we wonder why we're going downhill?
Ta-Nehisi says, in part, "Nigger means one thing when used amongst a group of people with similar experiences, and something else when used by people outside of that experience"
...and that's fine. What's not fine is one group with a common experience projecting their context for a given word onto another group, who's common experience is independent of them.....unless what Whoopi said is true about living in different worlds.
If we are truly living in different worlds, than it is not possible to understand the context of one group's "common experience". Personally, I don't subscribe to that belief.
When did Ta-Nehesi become King of All Blacks? Just because he may be the only black person you know, it doesn't mean you should take him as an authority on all things black.
And by the way, your analogy with Jews is ridiculous. Jews don't go around calling themselves the "k-word" (in fact, no one even says "k-word", since no one is afraid of being ostracized or physically assaulted for saying the actual slur in the case of Jews; people just walk around on egg shells when it comes to blacks).
Ta-Nahesi,
"I oppose white people using the word "ghetto."
How shall I describe the experience of my father during World War II? Should I say he was a survivor of the Warsaw "g-word" so as not to offend your sensibilities? What about other words blacks have borrowed from the experience of Jews, such as "diaspora". Can we no longer use that word either?
Maybe the best solution is for you to develop a thicker skin and stop policing the lexicon.
"I oppose white people using the word "ghetto."
What about black people using the term "white-people ghetto"? Because I knew a black guy who, upon moving from his hometown of LA, was shocked to discover such a thing.
Megan:
my mother slapped me so hard that my head fell off and I had to carry it with me to school like a lunchbox for three weeks.
This is somewhat understandable, given the primitive state of medical science in the late '70s, but the general consensus nowadays is that carrying your head around in a lunch box for three weeks is contraindicated in the case of decapitation. Most doctors now agree that the best course of action is to put the head on ice and rush to the hospital for surgical reattachment as soon as possible.
Ideally you should get someone else to take you, as driving is also contraindicated under such circumstances.
Wow, Elisabeth Hasselbeck sounds like a total idiot. Or a child. Or both.
I'm 23 and have long known not to call anyone n*gger. I've known for so long I don't even remember how I came to learn of that fact. In high school, a black friend of mine used to call me "my nigga" all the time, yet I never took that as evidence I could say it back to him. I just don't get why some white people just seem to want to say this word. It just seems creepy to me that some people get so bent out of shape about not being able to say it.
"I think we'd all be better off if black people would collectively just find something else to call each other"
How is that supposed to happen? Are black people supposed to get together and vote on this? If Obama is elected, is he supposed to have some executive order saying this?
"The best way to end discrimination is to...
End discrimination. Nobody gets a free pass based on group membership. We are all individuals. We should each be accountable for our words and actions as individuals.
Further, it's very un-libertarian to assert group priveleges based on race, gender, etc"
So not being able to say n*gger is now a form of discrimination? WTF? If someone finds the time to complain about not being able to say this single word, they have too much time on your hands and their life has been too easy off in lala land. Either that or they have some real racial issues.
I oppose white people using the word "ghetto.
How shall I describe the experience of my father during World War II? Should I say he was a survivor of the Warsaw "g-word" so as not to offend your sensibilities? What about other words blacks have borrowed from the experience of Jews, such as "diaspora". Can we no longer use that word either?
I would imagine that Ta-Nehisi was referring to "ghetto" as an adjective meaning low quality or run down. For example, "The merchandise at the discount store is totally ghetto."
For the record, I see nothing objectionable with that usage.
Good one Brandon Berg.
"How shall I describe the experience of my father during World War II? Should I say he was a survivor of the Warsaw "g-word" so as not to offend your sensibilities? What about other words blacks have borrowed from the experience of Jews, such as "diaspora". Can we no longer use that word either?"
I'm guessing Coates is referring to the use of the word "ghetto" as in "that piece of shit care is so ghetto," (basically using "ghetto" as a way of saying something is hack or crappy) not like the Venetian or Warsaw ghettos.
How's this for a deal for Ta-Nahesi: Black people stop committing crimes at 7 times the rate whites do, and then whites will consider his "no whites allowed" cordoning off of parts of the English language.
Megan,
Would it offend Ta-Nahesi's sensibilities if we continue to use the adjective niggardly (which, of course, has no etymological connection to the word "n-gger")?
Also, since Ta-Nahesi believes that a common experience licenses African-Americans to use the dreadful word I put in quotes above (after substituting a dash for one of the offending letters), does he believe that American blacks who have had different life experiences than the typical African-American should be allowed to use the word? What about Steven Spielberg's adopted black children, who grew up in affluence raised by whites. Should they be disallowed from using the word, because they don't share the main African American experience? What about Barack Obama, for that matter?
John H., great job having views your grandchildren will have to explain away to their friends: "He's just old and doesn't know what he's saying."
I propose to simply ban the English language. It's too offensive to everyone. Better yet, let's just STFU 100% of the time and use sign langauge!
Reality Man,
It depends where my grandchildren grow up. If they grow up in close proximity to blacks, they will end up having the same views as me (i.e., they will see reality for what it is). If they grow up somewhere with more liberals than blacks (e.g., Minnesota), they will grow up to share your views. Unless and until they move somewhere like D.C., that is.
Dear Lord. As I understand it, Megan's long-standing policy on the use of this word (and other taboo words) is not to ban it, not to criminalize it, but just "try not to be an asshole." Which doesn't sound like it should be too hard.
And yet...
Discussion like this reminds me of the Southpark Movie song "It's Easy, M'kay" where the children are taught things like, "Instead of saying, 'ass' say, 'buns', like, 'Get off your buns,' or 'You're a buns-hole'" etc. People try to explain away bad behavior by saying it's the result of bad language when it's really the other way around. Obviously context, when using a word like "nigger", is important. It is sometimes okay to say it, and it may be okay for some people to use it in a way that others can't. Similarly, no one ever gets after women playwrights or actresses for saying "cunt" but I sure as hell am never allowed to say it. But why would I want to?
I hate that people avoid or prescribe language in order to come across as "inoffensive". I can distinctly remember being a sophomore in high school and the teacher had us read aloud "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" A number of girls said "negro" or "the N-word" whenever they came across the term in Twain's text. One of the girls in particular, I remember, frequently said racially insensitive things otherwise but patted herself on the back for refusing to say the unsayable.
The real problem is that people don't know or aren't willing to admit what things they do or say that actually *are* offensive, so they create elaborate language rules that really don't address the problem. It's easier to be somewhat racist and never say "nigger" and only reference it as "the N-word", than not to be at all racist and learn contextually appropriate ways of discussing racism. In the end, when we make all these rules about who can say what, when, and why then we're essentially creating frameworks not only for racial sensitivity but also racial insensitivity. Most people can use their judgment for what's right and wrong, can't they? In a situation like this?
Seth gets it.
Very eloquent, Seth.
It seems to me that the way to evaluate uses of the word might be found in criminal law: look for a concurrence of action and intent.
What Megan and Ta-Nehisi seem to be saying when they outline instances where it's "okay" to say an otherwise verboten word is this: It's fair to assume that when one black person calls another black person a nigger, the speaker does not intend to demean the subject as inferior on the basis of race. In the same respect, when one woman calls another woman a bitch, it's reasonable to assume that the woman speaking does not intend to denigrate women generally. By contrast, when a white person utters the former word or a man employs the latter word, the natural assumption is that the speaker intends to draw an invidious comparison based on race or gender.
Those are all reasonable assumptions, but they are all rebuttable. When Mark Twain used the word nigger, his intention seems to have been to convey American culture and dialect as he observed it, not to endorse invidious racial classifications. Because he didn't have the requisite intent, Twain's use of the word is not generally condemned as racist (seems to me). On the other hand, if Charlotte Allen calls another woman a bitch, there may be good cause to take offense--or at least inquire further into what she means to imply.
Ta Nahesi: And whoooooo made yoooooooooouuuuu the Big Ghetto Sheriff o' the house?
I see that Ms Goldberg is still on the show. I assume ABC doesn't fire white employees for using The N Word on the job, and won't in the future.
"my Jewish friends can make complain about their cheap relatives"
I'm pretty sure if we ever make contact with extra-terrestrials, we'll discover that even they, like everybody else, have cheap relatives. Cheapness is hardly limited to Jews (or any other conceivable ethnic division). I hope that's not a revelation.
More to the point, I'm sure Megan's Jewish friends don't go around calling themselves "kike". The only reason the word "nigger" is such a taboo -- and yet is used freely among blacks -- is because keeping it a whites-only taboo is a way for blacks to intimidate and dominate whites. It is, in effect, a form of linguistic segregation enforced by blacks.
Dave - megan's argument here is lost on me. It is certainly ok for someone to call another person a bitch
And various self-appointed Head of All Black people don't get to dictate either.
Pretty much, people should go by live and live, and not use ethnic slurs that offend....But when another group uses a racial slur or ethnic slur 1st, or does physical assault or crime...then I say "good manners" may be dispensed with. I responded more than once to a "white boy" taunt in HS with a "why you calling me white boy, black boy??" come back - to the start of one racial fight the Lefty Ass't principal said was all my fault, and to a few startled blacks saying that "calling them black boy back was racist and disrespectful". You do have to be careful - when there is a pack of black thugs and they are going at people of other races with slurs and intimidation - you don't know if they are the black thugs just having fun slurring and cussing at their white, hispanic, asian targets with no intent of - or they are the truly dangerous gang bangers that are armed and dangerous and who will attack and even kill people that stand up to their taunts as "challengers".
Besides being 7 times more criminally violent than whites, blacks also have a much higher frequency of taunting others with racist, sexist, ethnic slurs.
If you ever ask an Asian or Mexican or Jew or gay who if anyone taunted them and used the coarsest of language - it was blacks as the main culprits. Who beat them up in school? If they were beaten - it was mostly or all by blacks....
And whites get it too - in intimidation or as prelude to, or during an attack by blacks. "White bitches", "white MF'r", "white boy".
My cousin is a cop in Atlanta and he says it never surprises him much when some genteel white liberal woman of good breeding who would never dream of calling a black person a nigger suddenly has a change of heart after a bad beating&robbery or rape by a black thug. Then the N-word, and alternate apologies for using the N-Word on the evil piece of shit that took her at knifepoint, comes pouring out...
With the near 100 thousand of other races killed by blacks in America in the last 30 years, I imagine that the word "nigger" or "black animal" was in many of their thoughts as they were dying..
Great - It's not black people's jobs to raise us, meaning we can't be offended when ignorant people marginalize themselves. I'm sure black America likes when insulated people "defend" them this way. Super. So you silly white poeple don't get it, tee hee, which is more important than the damage done by using the term. Jebus.
When you said context matters, I think you meant to talk about the black hole "controversy."
But, like, some of your best friends ...
josh: The problem is, the context should be in the way it's said, not who is saying it. If I call a woman friend a bitch to tease, she doesn't get mad. If I'm saying it to be mean, well then she'll slug me. The problem with the word "nigger" is that the word itself is off-limits for white people. Even if a white person says it in the same, joking way that black people say it, it's wrong.
jr: Considering the realities of human behavior, this sort of double standard ha some real problems. It’s as if black people, or at least those who share this view, are saying, ‘Do as I say, not as I do.’ That approach may have real moral and ethical justification, but it almost never works.
This really isn't so hard. It's not about context, and there is no "double standard." The issue is that "nigger" means "us" when a black person says it and "them" when a white person does. The word doesn't have the same content in both cases, any more than the word "I" means the same thing when I say it and when my neighbor does. Arguing about whether it's an unfair restriction for a white person to feel unable to use the word "nigger" while a black person can is like me getting all upset because I can't refer to you as "I" even though you can. It's not just that context matters, it's that in this case, the context is the content.
juan: The only reason the word "nigger" is such a taboo -- and yet is used freely among blacks -- is because keeping it a whites-only taboo is a way for blacks to intimidate and dominate whites. It is, in effect, a form of linguistic segregation enforced by blacks.
john h.:How's this for a deal for Ta-Nahesi: Black people stop committing crimes at 7 times the rate whites do, and then whites will consider his "no whites allowed" cordoning off of parts of the English language.
Stunning. It's kind of hilarious when people who feel comfortable labeling black people in general as criminalistic conspirators to keep whitey down argue that they should be free to use the word "nigger." Guys, don't you see? You just did.
Re: If you ever ask an Asian or Mexican or Jew or gay who if anyone taunted them and used the coarsest of language - it was blacks as the main culprits.
Odd-- I'm gay and I don't ever recall being taunted by Blacks (and note: my high school was 1/3 Black). I wasn't in fact taunted much at all, though admittedly I wasn't openly gay back in the early 80s, almost no one in high school anywhere was back then. To the extent I ever got much taunting and bullying its source was other white kids.
The only reason the word "nigger" is such a taboo -- and yet is used freely among blacks -- is because keeping it a whites-only taboo is a way for blacks to intimidate and dominate whites. It is, in effect, a form of linguistic segregation enforced by blacks.
Yes, you're pretty much on the money.
One thing I greatly dislike is being in the presence of blacks who are using the word "nigger" in a casual manner when they know I can hear them. It's almost a way of lording it over me, though it may not be directed personally against me.
Professor Darkheart,
"Generalization" isn't a dirty word; it's a fundamental concept of sociology. It's entirely accurate to say that blacks commit crimes at 7 times the white rate. Does that mean that all blacks commit crimes? Of course not. But it also doesn't mean that's it's wrong to generalize that blacks are more likely to commit crimes; in fact, it would be folly (and dangerous) not to generalize, e.g., when picking a place to live or a school to send your kids to. Very few affluent liberals who are quick to berate everyone who accurately describes reality as a racist walk the colorblind walk in real life. They send their kids to safe, non-public schools (like Megan's parents did, or Matt Yglesias's parents did, etc.).
Parents who send their kids to schools with large black populations (e.g., my parents, Chris Ford's parents) end up having kids who grow up to be realistic and not politically correct. Realism requires a certain reliance on generalizations.
What if you're half-black but don't look all that black?
Can Barack Obama call someone "nigger" or use the word in conversation? He's "only" half-black, and wasn't raised "street", so what's his context?
How about Tiger Woods?
I think that word was on its way out of the lexicon except for its use among rednecks, black militants, and a few others ... until hip-hop came along and turned it into a sine qua non for those looking to establish street cred as a gangsta rappa.
As far as "How about Tiger", remember that the black race drafted him, so that's legit.
Can't we just agree to call it the "igg word"? Will no-one think of the children?
This is a pretty amazing thread. In part because of quotes like these:
Sounds like a fair deal, but something about the wording leads me to think that it wouldn't be honored. Oh well. There are more serious things to be offended by in this thread. I'm really disturbed like this claim that someone is trying to make me "King Of The Blacks," when everyone knows I'm already King Of The Blacks. And on good day the Hispanics. On a better day the Asians. And on a great day--like today--the Whites also.
Can Barack Obama call someone "nigger" or use the word in conversation? He's "only" half-black, and wasn't raised "street", so what's his context?
Reminds me of the Seinfeld episode in which a dentist converts to Judaism and then goes around telling Jewish jokes.
i CANNOT think of ONE reason why a non-black person would want to us the word.
the only non-black people who want to use this word is because they are racists.
"One thing I greatly dislike is being in the presence of blacks who are using the word "nigger" in a casual manner when they know I can hear them. It's almost a way of lording it over me, though it may not be directed personally against me."
Damn, that's sad. You think they're "lording it over you", and it bothers you? Are you sure you're not irked by them because you feel they're being "rebellious" in front of someone (you) who they are not supposed to be rebellious in front of? Are you sure you have a problem with "the word", or do you have issues with blacks that have to do with power, privilege, and black "assimilation", and just who gets to practice and dictate the terms of those things in this counrty? Because that's what the exchange between Whoopi Goldberg and Elizabeth Hasselbeck was really about.
"I think we'd all be better off if black people would collectively just find something else to call each other, and the word regained full taboo status."
When did the word have full taboo status? Not in my lifetime, and I've been here a while. It came closest to gaining taboo status in the mid-70's to mid-80's, I suppose. It's certainly risen in usage since then, but not nearly as much as people want to think. because of rap music and the fact that it's become the slang equivalent of "guy" and "buddy" among a lot of younger blacks, it's heard more frequently than it was 25 years ago, but the number of blacks who use it is still a whole lot lower than I remember it being when I was a child in the 60's. Back then, it was pretty common across all age groups.
Blacks wanting whites not to say "nigger" is evidence that we're trying to take over, huh? Wow. For some reason, it's encouraging to find out that some of you think that.
"One thing I greatly dislike is being in the presence of blacks who are using the word "nigger" in a casual manner when they know I can hear them. It's almost a way of lording it over me, though it may not be directed personally against me."
Damn, that's sad. You think they're "lording it over you", and it bothers you? Are you sure you're not irked by them because you feel they're being "rebellious" in front of someone (you) who they are not supposed to be rebellious in front of? Are you sure you have a problem with "the word", or do you have issues with blacks that have to do with power, privilege, and black "assimilation", and just who gets to practice and dictate the terms of those things in this counrty? Because that's what the exchange between Whoopi Goldberg and Elizabeth Hasselbeck was really about.
"I think we'd all be better off if black people would collectively just find something else to call each other, and the word regained full taboo status."
When did the word have full taboo status? Not in my lifetime, and I've been here a while. It came closest to gaining taboo status in the mid-70's to mid-80's, I suppose. It's certainly risen in usage since then, but not nearly as much as people want to think. because of rap music and the fact that it's become the slang equivalent of "guy" and "buddy" among a lot of younger blacks, it's heard more frequently than it was 25 years ago, but the number of blacks who use it is still a whole lot lower than I remember it being when I was a child in the 60's. Back then, it was pretty common across all age groups.
Blacks wanting whites not to say "nigger" is evidence that we're trying to take over, huh? Wow. For some reason, it's encouraging to find out that some of you think that.
I should say...the percentage of blacks who use "the word" these days is much lower than it was when I was a kid.
"I think that word was on its way out of the lexicon except for its use among rednecks, black militants, and a few others"
"Black militants"? Ah, you must mean militant black conservatives.
What I find most interesting in the micro yet ably applied to the macro, is the reaction of Juan, Chris Ford and Peter to the unfairness of Blacks flagrantly using a word Whites are not permitted to under most circumstances. For the sake of argument, I will give the point that it is unfair. And frustrating. And verbally segregationist.
Surely then, guys, you can now understand the frustration when the same principle of "we count, you don't; we can, you can't" is employed for issues not as meager as semantics. You now know. It's hard to be on the receiving end. And you guys have only experienced this small inconsequential inequity for how long?
Just a thought.
"It depends where my grandchildren grow up. If they grow up in close proximity to blacks, they will end up having the same views as me (i.e., they will see reality for what it is). If they grow up somewhere with more liberals than blacks (e.g., Minnesota), they will grow up to share your views. Unless and until they move somewhere like D.C., that is.
Posted by John H. | July 18, 2008 3:49 PM"
Well, I have always been around black people, dated a black woman, have black relatives and have family in sub-Saharan Africa, and have lived in Baltimore for a few years, so I'm guessing I know a little more about reality than you, you racist piece of shit.
"If you ever ask an Asian or Mexican or Jew or gay who if anyone taunted them and used the coarsest of language - it was blacks as the main culprits."
Ummm, I'm a minority, yet no black person has ever called me anything worse than a jerk, but I have had white people say much worse things to me (including racist things), so I'm calling bullshit on your little rant.
One thing I greatly dislike is being in the presence of blacks who are using the word "nigger" in a casual manner when they know I can hear them. It's almost a way of lording it over me, though it may not be directed personally against me.
Damn, that's sad. You think they're "lording it over you", and it bothers you? Are you sure you're not irked by them because you feel they're being "rebellious" in front of someone (you) who they are not supposed to be rebellious in front of? Are you sure you have a problem with "the word", or do you have issues with blacks that have to do with power, privilege, and black "assimilation", and just who gets to practice and dictate the terms of those things in this counrty?
Your p.c. rant entirely misses the mark. When blacks use the word "nigger" in the presence of a nonblack person they are not being rebellious. As I see it, they are acting in an aggressive manner. It has nothing whatsoever to do with "power, privilege and black assimilation."
Ta-Nahesi Coates writes:
"...I'm already King Of The Blacks. And on good day the Hispanics. On a better day the Asians. And on a great day--like today--the Whites also."
What a cogent and lucid response. Anyone who wondered whether your career has been fueled by affirmative action can now toss away such doubts. You're certainly the king of the guilty liberal whites who have given you writing assignments they wouldn't give to a white person with the same background as you.
Anonymous Sec's writes:
"You now know. It's hard to be on the receiving end. And you guys have only experienced this small inconsequential inequity for how long?"
This is a little too facile, don't you think? Certainly I have no idea how it felt to be a black man in the Jim Crow South, but then again, neither does Ta-Nahesi Coates, or nearly any other living African American, for that matter. Ta-Nehisi dictating what words I can and can't say won't make me empathize any more or less with the real oppression his ancestors felt, and he never experienced*. What I have experienced firsthand is living with hostile, rude, and dangerous African Americans.
*The most pathetic part of Ta-Nahesi's recent Atlantic article about Bill Cosby was when "Ta" described his participation in the Million Man March, which was basically MLK's march repeated as farce. Martin Luther King marched to protest real, institutionalized discrimination and segregation. What was Ta-Nahesi protesting? The stupid, self-destructive behavior of black crack addicts and gang-bangers.
""If you ever ask an Asian or Mexican or Jew or gay who if anyone taunted them and used the coarsest of language - it was blacks as the main culprits."
I'm a Jew, and the only person who ever called me a kike to my face was an Asian kid, so...OMG WTF?!?!? I'M JUST SOOO LIBRUL AND PC I FORGOT ABOUT ALL THE BLACK PEOPLE WHO HATE ME!
"Your p.c. rant entirely misses the mark. When blacks use the word "nigger" in the presence of a nonblack person they are not being rebellious. As I see it, they are acting in an aggressive manner."
Wow, you're just overly sensitive and think the world revolves around you. Some people just talk certain ways. Some black people call everyone "nigga" and some don't use the word at all. Are people supposed to change how they talk around you in a social setting just because you're not black? Wow, you really sound like a whiner.
Reality Man,
Generally, the person who resorts to name-calling is the one with the weak argument. In this thread, that person is you.
I'm not surprised that you have family in sub-Saharan Africa. Ethnic Indians aren't that uncommon in Africa. I'm happy also that you've found some nice black people and even dated a nice black woman. Nothing I've said above suggests that such people don't exist. Nothing you've said above means that the generalizations everyone knows are true of most African-Americans aren't valid.
Pay close attention to that "verbally segregationist" bit in your explanation. It's always confused me about some black people. Then I realized it: the ones who are that way aren't black, they really ARE niggers.
They keep shouting "we're different from you!" by reserving words for only their use. "We're different from you" by reserving the raised fist. "We're different from you" by being AFRICAN-American. "We're different from you" by whatever reason.
And then they complain when we treat them differently in even the slightest way....
When you're done being niggers and decide to be an American who happens to have black skin, come join the rest of us. Until then, wonderful people like Ta-Nahesi can make sure that you remain niggers.
"As I see it, they are acting in an aggressive manner."
Even when they are paying such close attention to the person they're talking to that they don't even notice you're there? If they use it as casually and un-self-consiously as someone else uses "dude", how can that be acting in an aggressive manner? I think you've simply substituted the word "aggressive" for "rebellious". Like the person upthread said, you do think the world should revlove around you, or white guys in general.
What was Ta-Nahesi protesting? The stupid, self-destructive behavior of black crack addicts and gang-bangers.
Basically. Props on making it that deep in. It was a long article.
What was Ta-Nahesi protesting? The stupid, self-destructive behavior of black crack addicts and gang-bangers.
Basically. Props on making it that deep in. It was a long article.
Wow, you're just overly sensitive and think the world revolves around you. Some people just talk certain ways. Some black people call everyone "nigga" and some don't use the word at all. Are people supposed to change how they talk around you in a social setting just because you're not black?
In a word, yes. Most or all of us already change our speech in different settings. Sometimes this is fairly self-evident, for example refraining from swearing in the presence of children or at a work-related function. Or it can be more subtle, for instance deciding not to mention the expensive new car you just bought when talking to someone you know has been facing financial troubles.
Asking black people to refrain from casual use of an extremely inflammatory racial term in the presence of non-blacks is not asking too much.
It's the same reason that my Jewish friends can make complain about their cheap relatives, why my female friends and I can call each other "bitch" when not even my closest male friends are allowed to deploy the word...
Hmmm. And what insults directed at white males are off-limits for other groups? Asshole? Dickhead? Prick? Nah, didn't think so.
White males (which is to say males generally excepting protected victim classes of minority males) are now the one group in the U.S. against whom casual bigotry remains perfectly acceptable in polite company. Sexual mutilation a la John Bobbitt? Funny. Prison rape? Funny again. "Testosterone poising"? Perfectly acceptable in polite company. Can a NY Times columnist title a book, "Are Men Necessary"? Of course. If males are struggling in school, is that an indication of bias in the school system? Or an invitation to speculate about the of inherent biological problems of maleness? If you guessed the latter, you're a winner.
I would say that at this point, in the U.S., if you're not a male (particularly a white male), you don't get it -- you don't get what it is to be a member of a group to whom derogatory thoughts and speech may be unconsciously directed in polite company. There is literally nothing you can say or write about white males that would be considered bigoted by most people.
And what's the common reaction to the above? Quit your whining? To which I say -- exactly.
Are most fortune 500 CEOs white males? Sure -- which leads me to point out that hatred of market dominant minorities is common:
http://www.amazon.com/World-Fire-Exporting-Democracy-Instability/dp/0385503024
What do you think motivated the Holocaust? Obviously, I'm not saying that there's any danger of anti-white male pogroms. I'm saying that the sociological/psychological roots of casual antisemitism and casual anti-white male bigotry are the same.
Not much we white males can really do about the situation, but one thing we can do is refuse to defer and to genuflect. I've never called anybody a nigger and I don't expect I ever will, but I'm not going to tip-toe around and avoid saying the word in all contexts (like this discussion). And bitch? That's not even close to the same semantic category. 'Bitch' as both a joke and a description (of somebody who's being a bitch) is certainly no worse than 'dick' or 'asshole' (it's much milder, actually. 'Cunt' would be the more obvious female equivalent of 'dick').
Slocum, the fact that you link jokes about white guys to the Holocaust just shows how out of your mind you are. Get some fresh air. Really, the fact that conservative white guys are so mad about having to put up with a few jokes now in public just shows how wimpy the cultural conservative movement really is. Talk radio is pretty much all about trying to make straight Christian white males feel like some type of aggrieved minority because that's where the money is. It's like that joke on "American Dad," a show created by a white guy: "Yeah, I hate it that we only have most of the power now instead of all of the power." It's like complaining that a poor person called your gold-plated house gaudy. It's enough to give one the vapors.
"White males (which is to say males generally excepting protected victim classes of minority males) are now the one group in the U.S. against whom casual bigotry remains perfectly acceptable in polite company. Sexual mutilation a la John Bobbitt? Funny."
Everyone made fun of that because it was so fucking weird. Bobbitt, after all, had raped his wife and was scum. I guess all of the white male comics and the likes of Howard Stern should have spent the entire time going "woe is me" instead of cracking jokes about such an easy source of material. Even Bobbitt got in on the joke by making a porn video after the fact.
"Prison rape? Funny again."
How is this a white-only issue. A lot of people who get raped in men's prisons aren't white, so basically you're just making stuff up now. "The Boondocks," for example, have a black character who has based his entire life around being good so that he doesn't go to prison and get anally raped.
"Testosterone poising"? Perfectly acceptable in polite company."
And how is this a white-only thing?
"Can a NY Times columnist title a book, "Are Men Necessary"? Of course."
And she's considered a hack by most liberals and is considered a glorified gossip columnist. She has a rather poor reputation.
"If males are struggling in school, is that an indication of bias in the school system? Or an invitation to speculate about the of inherent biological problems of maleness? If you guessed the latter, you're a winner."
Somehow I can remember conservatives celebrating Lawrence Summers saying that women are just biologically not orientated towards being good at math and science. You are greatly mis-representing the academic controversy at play here.
"Generally, the person who resorts to name-calling is the one with the weak argument. In this thread, that person is you.
I'm not surprised that you have family in sub-Saharan Africa. Ethnic Indians aren't that uncommon in Africa. I'm happy also that you've found some nice black people and even dated a nice black woman. Nothing I've said above suggests that such people don't exist. Nothing you've said above means that the generalizations everyone knows are true of most African-Americans aren't valid.
Posted by John H. | July 21, 2008 2:18 AM"
Actually, considering how basically you are calling an entire race of people violent scum, your entire argument rests on name-calling, thus meaning by your own logic you have no argument. Racists always say things like "everyone knows" certain "generalizations," meaning racist smears, are true. You're just a racist but know being a racist makes you a bad person, so you're trying to spin yourself out of quicksand of your own creation. You're just too weak-minded to admit you're a racist. After all, when I lived in Baltimore I found the vast majority of the black people I met there to be decent people. You just need to feel superior by dumping on less powerful groups of people.
Really, gentlemen, are you being deliberately obtuse? Did you completely miss my point or do you just want to hurl nigger around in mixed company for effect? Or make the point that Black people scare you?
I was conceding the point of it being verbally segregationist "for the sake of argument." Since you seem hell-bent to completely miss my point, here it is. Not being able to use a word, fairly or unfairly, is miniscule in comparison to the world of inequity presented to a person of color. Somehow generations of Black people have withstood such inequity for hundreds of years. You, however, have your panties in a bunch OVER NOT BEING ABLE TO USE A WORD acceptably in, what? A generation? Two? You big girls.
I'm off to work. Scaring White people on the way. Nothing but fun.
Really, gentlemen, are you being deliberately obtuse? Did you completely miss my point or do you just want to hurl nigger around in mixed company for effect? Or make the point that Black people scare you?
I was conceding the point of it being verbally segregationist "for the sake of argument." Since you seem hell-bent to completely miss my point, here it is. Not being able to use a word, fairly or unfairly, is miniscule in comparison to the world of inequity presented to a person of color. Somehow generations of Black people have withstood such inequity for hundreds of years. You, however, have your panties in a bunch OVER NOT BEING ABLE TO USE A WORD acceptably in, what? A generation? Two? You big girls.
I'm off to work. Scaring White people on the way. Nothing but fun.
Ha! And my point bears making twice!
Yes, those poor black people, having a greater chance of getting into college. Having government contracts guaranteed to minority-owned businesses. Having the ability to sue over the slightest racial slur. Having affirmative action helping them get jobs vs comparatively skilled white people.
All that inequality must be crushing...
When you want to give up the victim-boat and join the rest of us by being responsible for yourself (including responsible for your reactions to a word) is up to you.
Actually, there was once a great debate linking feminism to 1939'ish Nazism. The similarities are profound, including the dehumanization of the hated class.
It's a real shame that the blog owner, a man who claims to be an MRA, decided that the debate was over and the comparison was 'asinine' without one shred of debate to the contrary (from him, nor effective debate from anyone).
Again, we need to define racist. Is sickle cell a "racist allegation" or not?
Juan: It's entirely accurate to say that blacks commit crimes at 7 times the white rate. Does that mean that all blacks commit crimes? Of course not. But it also doesn't mean that's it's wrong to generalize that blacks are more likely to commit crimes; in fact, it would be folly (and dangerous) not to generalize, e.g., when picking a place to live or a school to send your kids to.
Fair enough, but entirely irrelevant. What I was objecting to was not a statement about statistical likelihood but an argument that because of that statistical likelihood, black people in general (and Ta-Nehisi Coates in particular) are somehow out of order in objecting to the use by whites of a racially offensive slur. To say that black people in general commit crimes at a higher rate than whites is statistics (they're also victimized by crime at higher rates, and the rates in both cases are comparable to those in poor white communities). To say that because of those statistics, it's fair to treat a given black person uninvolved in any criminal enterprise with less respect than you would expect yourself is racism. See the difference?
demonspawn writes:
...those poor black people, having a greater chance of getting into college. Having government contracts guaranteed to minority-owned businesses. Having the ability to sue over the slightest racial slur. Having affirmative action helping them get jobs vs comparatively skilled white people.
and then:
give up the victim-boat and join the rest of us by being responsible for yourself
to which I reply:
Ha! Good one.
Slocum, the fact that you link jokes about white guys to the Holocaust just shows how out of your mind you are. Get some fresh air.
Do you think there is any commonality between the motivations behind the holocaust and, say, the anti-han Chinese hatred that exists in places where they are a 'market dominant minority'? If not, why not? Do you think that the bigotry behind the holocaust was completely sui generis and had nothing in common with other group-based hatreds? If so, why? Surely one of the lessons of the holocaust is it's not a good idea to tolerate 'mild', 'casual' bigotry against one's group, no?
Somehow I can remember conservatives celebrating Lawrence Summers saying that women are just biologically not orientated towards being good at math and science.
Has anybody ever been run out of a job for suggesting that men are biologically not oriented toward 'caring' professions like nursing? It is perfectly acceptable to suggest that women are particularly suited or interested in particular kinds of work -- but it is beyond the pale to suggest the same thing about men. And if men have a particular capacity or affinity for math and hard sciences as currently practiced, well, then the hard-sciences must be restructured from top to bottom so that they do not reward the intense, focused, things-rather-than-relationships kinds of efforts that some men seem to 'unfairly' excel at.
Can anyone imagine demanding the complete restructuring of the field of nursing so that it would attract half men? But that is exactly what is being demanded of hard sciences (via the extension of title IX):
http://www.american.com/archive/2008/march-april-magazine-contents/why-can2019t-a-woman-be-more-like-a-man
"Yeah, I hate it that we only have most of the power now instead of all of the power."
I'm not complaining of an absence of political or economic power, I'm complaining that this is used to excuse any and all manner of male bashing (unless the males in question are minorities, in which case, they're excepted). Not just excuse it, but to make it completely accepted, ordinary, unremarkable.
Or do you think a good job implies that one must accept bigotry without complaint? If so, why?
And men of my generation spend our early years in a much more male-friendly environment. Not so my son -- we'll see if men of his generation have a lack of political and economic power to complain about as well as bigotry. The large and growing imbalance in college degrees certainly suggests that is likely.
And how is this a white-only thing?
It's an anti-male thing, but minority males are excepted. So bigotry that would be acceptable against white males and males without any race or ethnicity specified, would be out of bounds if applied to black males. Try it. Would a magazine publish an article speculating that males are currently doing poorly in school because they lack verbal fluency or sufficient attention spans? Of course. Would a magazine publish an article speculating that black males do poorly because they lack verbal fluency or sufficient attention spans? Never. See how it works?
[Maureen Down is] considered a hack by most liberals and is considered a glorified gossip columnist. She has a rather poor reputation.
Indeed she does. But not as a bigot. And she still has a job writing for the NY Times -- which anyone who'd exhibited a comparable level of bigotry against any other group certainly would not.
"Asking black people to refrain from casual use of an extremely inflammatory racial term in the presence of non-blacks is not asking too much."
It is asking too much when no one else is asked to do the same thing in regard to iflammatory terms that are used against WASPs and white ethnics.
But, if you will take the time to notice, I'm just pointing out the government granted advantage which is not only more directly provable, but also a valid reason to petition the government for a redress of grieviences. On top of that, I'm not blaming any of the above for any of my shortcomings or failures. I'm merely pointing out that all the "inequality" that blacks face is mostly in their favor.