Best commentary so far on Joe Biden comes, not surprisingly, from mad Scotsman Alex Massie:
I sort of had half a sneaky hope that Biden might actually somehow fluke his way to the nomination itself, but that's largely because since I don't expect to agree with any of the candidates on most of the issues** that matter most to me there's something to be said for supporting the fella most likely to provide quality entertainment. In the Democratic race that was, by a mile, Biden.
He's the sort of man I've met many a time in Irish pubs. Biden will tell you, at some length for sure, all about his plans for the future, how he's on the cusp of greatness just waiting for that last piece to fall neatly into place. The fact that - stubbornly - it has never yet done so deters him not a bit. Next time, lads, next time...UPDATE: See what I mean! Priceless!
He'll often seem as though he's auditioning for the position of Official Pub Bore but then every so often there'll be a flash of wit or a moment of self-deprecation that punctures the bluster and bombast, rendering Biden warm and human.
You can picture him propping up one end of the bar for thirty years; long enough for all to be forgiven, all ancient battles and blunders forgotten as we grow older, more charitable, more sentimental. Biden's the sort of fellow who'll make a wildly inappropriate and suggestive comment about your wife. To your face. On your wedding day. But he'll do so in such a guileless fashion free from any hint of malice that, dash it and almost half despite yourself, you forgive the silly old fool. He was, you realise, probably trying to ay something complimentary.
Heck, even his 1988 disgrace was so preposterous - plagiarising Neil bleedin' Kinnock! - that it seems utterly artless. So bizarre there had to be an innocent, brain-frying explanation for it. Despite all those years in Washington, there's an endearing child-like quality to Biden. Or, to put it another way, observing Biden in full flow is a glorious sight; it's like watching a labrador bound after a bouncing ball even though, being a puppy, it doesn't quite have the co-ordination to grab the ball cleanly. Instead there's a frenzy of yelping delight as the ball carroms around the yard, always tantalisingly just out of reach...
Of course, I immediately thought of this immortal recording from my favorite Pogues album, Rum, Sodomy and the Lash. YouTube doesn't have a good video of the Pogues doing it, but this is a fairly serviceable rendition by . . . some random guy on the internets.
"Despite all the years in Washington, there's an endearing child-like quality to Biden."
The Baseball Crank likes to characterize Biden as the political equivalent of "a boy raised by wolves," as he has spent essentially his entire adult life in the Senate and it shows.
This forced (and not terribly accurate) metaphor of a drunken Irish bar fly is the BEST commentary you've read so far?
Heck, even the author can't decide if Biden is the "fella most likely to provide quality entertainment" or "the Official Pub Bore" with a flash of wit.
This post, like most others here, reeks of an upper west-side pro-choice (and pro-Obama) vegan cosmopolitan trying desperately to get the approval of your conservative readership.
I note from the TNR link that Biden paid less for his house than McCain pays annually for his maids & other domestics.
All right, let's get serious here. Biden is probably as good a veep candidate as any that were on offer. I've never been convinced that the VP nomination, like newspaper endorsements, were as improtant as some make them out to be.
But my question is, Who exactly IS Joe Biden? Every four years he's touted as the Dems foremost foreign policy thinker. Yet his presidential hopes have been scuttled by plagiarism and disinterest. His rambling "questions" at hearings have become the stuff of legend. And it seems as though, if you don't like what Joe Biden said today, wait until tomorrow, he'll say the exact opposite. And yet nobody seems to seriously call him on it. Like the guy in the above post, he's the lovable eccentric who's part of the wallpaper.
Help me out here. I'm a Republican and have watched Biden for years and I still wonder, Is he really any good?
This could be important given the Democratic candidate, IMHO, is still inexperienced and lately, seems to be making promises on a Clintonian scale; and a Republican who, while experienced, has a reputation as a hothead.
So, who IS Joe Biden? Neil Kinnock? A Man You Don't Meet Everyday? The second coming of Scoop Jackson. Which one of dese?
Of course, Biden never plagiarized Kinnock. But let's not let small details get in the way of a good narrative, shall we?
SOV,
He did plagiarize. Just because one cited the source before one audience doesn't excuse not doing so before different ones. If he were a freshman composition student, his lapse would merit a reprimand and no more.
Drew@12:45...
Good question actually. I am conservative, but am likely voting for Obama. I hear people speaking of Biden as this expert in foreign policy, but indeed, what has he really done? Of course I might be too lazy to see what actual legislation he is behind, but it's interesting that the newspapers never bother to explain why he is this expert when praising him.
Is being an expert on foreign policy merely having an opinion that seemed sensible? Or is he behind real moves made that benefited the country internationally?
I do think he is a good pick, since he is a contrast to Obama. McCain's choice should be interesting here.
Yes, that is the best Pogues album.
The rest of this is gibberish.
Second-rate Scots journalist offers insight into politics 3000 miles away. Unsurprisingly (if you've read the man's work) descends into inaccurate and patronizing cliche. Somehow Mcardle finds this parody of a portrait to be insightful. Surprisingly, one wonders?
Actually, having watched Biden for over 20 years, the best way to describe him is that he is what Cliff Clavin would be if he were a Senator.
A good defensive choice politically for Obama: McCain's recent ads seemed directed at ridiculing the Obamamessiah. As your interlocuter points out, it's hard to add ridicule to a man who, tied to the drinker described at the bar or Biden, unconsciously ridicules himself. Biden answers the question poised by the commenter MayBee at Just One Minute in discussing Ayers and others associated historically with Barack, "Who are Obama's normal friends?"
Proving the point about "entertainment," did you know that Biden in his Springfield remarks responding to Obama's praise of him called Barack "Barack America?" This has been revised in the official transcript, again cf. Just One Minute.
Yancey Ward writes: "Actually, having watched Biden for over 20 years, the best way to describe him is that he is what Cliff Clavin would be if he were a Senator."
Whereas McCain is playing Abraham Simpson.
Biden reminds me of Paulie from "The Sopranos" as well.
Biden is much more of a foreign policy expert than J. Sidney "I can't be wrong because I was a POW 40 years ago" McCain III could ever hope to be.
As I understand, being chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee and having world leaders call one on a regular basis would seem to render one an expert on foreign affairs. I wonder if he was still the pick if not for Georgia.
gocart mozart says: "Biden is much more of a foreign policy expert than J. Sidney "I can't be wrong because I was a POW 40 years ago" McCain III could ever hope to be."
You mean you're not impressed by McCain's comment about the "Iraq-Pakistan border"?
Remember, this was a guy who went 5 years without a map. In prison. In Vietnam. Did I mention he was a POW in Vietnam?
J. Sidney may have been a POW but he was never tortured. Maybe enhancedly interrogated, but not tortured. Don't take my word for it. Just ask Bush, John Yoo or J. Sidney [McCain offer not valid on Mondays, Wednesdays or Fridays]
"Whereas McCain is playing Abraham Simpson."
McCain started wearing an onion around his belt long before Mr Simpson. He started while a POW! In Nam! It was the style at the time. How dare you question his patriotism!! Go back to Mexico Mr AndJesus and stop taking good paying snark jobs away from real Americans.
Years ago, as part of a fellowship, I had the opportunity to meet Dick Cheney in his House office. He talked about the job of being a congressman, of being a congressman from Wyoming and other things.
One of those other things was foreign affairs. Pointing to a world map he had prominently displayed on the wall of his office, he talked deeply and learnedly about the strategie importance of holding certain portions of the globe, among them holding Vietnam to project power over the southern Pacific basin.
I was somewhat puzzled by all of this. Cheney was minority whip from Wyoming, a western farming and mining state, noted for his collegiality. I had never thought of him as being a foreign policy expert, but there it was.
So, given what we've seen since then, I think it's worthwhile to deeply examine Joe Biden's foreign policy bona fides. Warren Christopher seemed like a great idea as secretary of state.
Of course, the thing with Biden is he talks so much and takes so many sides, he probably does have all the bases covered. He was for the War on Terror, then against it. For invading Iraq, then against it. Proposed an early version of the PATRIOT Act, voted for the actual act and is now against it.
At least the man's flexible...
Years ago, as part of a fellowship, I had the opportunity to meet Dick Cheney in his House office. He talked about the job of being a congressman, of being a congressman from Wyoming and other things.
One of those other things was foreign affairs. Pointing to a world map he had prominently displayed on the wall of his office, he talked deeply and learnedly about the strategie importance of holding certain portions of the globe, among them holding Vietnam to project power over the southern Pacific basin.
I was somewhat puzzled by all of this. Cheney was minority whip from Wyoming, a western farming and mining state, noted for his collegiality. I had never thought of him as being a foreign policy expert, but there it was.
So, given what we've seen since then, I think it's worthwhile to deeply examine Joe Biden's foreign policy bona fides. Warren Christopher seemed like a great idea as secretary of state.
Of course, the thing with Biden is he talks so much and takes so many sides, he probably does have all the bases covered. He was for the War on Terror, then against it. For invading Iraq, then against it. Proposed an early version of the PATRIOT Act, voted for the actual act and is now against it.
At least the man's flexible...
"J. Syndey", GoCart? Lemme guess: you'd go all hysterical on us if someone called Obama "B. Hussein", right?
And Joe Biden as an expert on anything? The man sounds incoherent half the time in the Senate, with his rambling, pointless questions and his pontificating.
DrewShaw writes: "Cheney was minority whip from Wyoming, a western farming and mining state, noted for his collegiality."
Those days are gone forever. Now he's known as one of the biggest assholes on the planet. So much so that "go Cheney yourself" has entered the language.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=go+cheney+yourself&as_oq=&as_eq=&num=10&lr=&as_filetype=&ft=i&as_sitesearch=&as_qdr=all&as_rights=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=off
Fred disingenuously writes: ""J. Syndey", GoCart? Lemme guess: you'd go all hysterical on us if someone called Obama "B. Hussein", right?"
Wingnuts have been calling Osama that for months now, chuckles. And it's "J. Sidney." "Syndey" is closer to his wife's name. You know, the pill-popping homewrecking whore?
"And Joe Biden as an expert on anything? The man sounds incoherent half the time in the Senate, with his rambling, pointless questions and his pontificating."
This from Fred, who voted for Dumbya Bush twice, and now wants to install a senile fool in the White House. Amazing.
Wingnuts have been calling Osama that for months now, chuckles. And it's "J. Sidney." "Syndey" is closer to his wife's name. You know, the pill-popping homewrecking whore?
That's quite the spirited defense of the sanctity of marriage. How do you reconcile it with your usually generous view of Clinton?
aMouse squeaks: "That's quite the spirited defense of the sanctity of marriage. How do you reconcile it with your usually generous view of Clinton?"
I don't have a generous view of Clinton. He was a deeply flawed creep whose inability to keep it in his pants crippled his effectiveness as president. He had the skills to be great but he ended up merely okay. His best accomplishment was keeping the GOP wackaloons out of the White House for 8 years.
That said, I don't actually give a damn about Cindy being a homewrecking whore, or who Clinton porked. I'm merely providing the treatment to the McCains that the Repiglicans would give to any Democratic candidate and his wife if they had the history the McCains have. And I don't even have to lie to do it, because she really IS a pill-popping homewrecking whore!
But then McCain spent 5 years in prison without whores OR pills. He was a POW, you know. And a prisoner of war. In Vietnam. But he hates to talk about it.
Major premise: A good president has good judgment.
Minor premise: Obama would be a good president.
Conclusion: Obama has good judgment.
Major premise: A good president has good judgment.
Minor premise: A vice president's most important role function is to become President in cases of presidential disability.
Conclusion: A good vice president has good judgment.
Major premise: Obama has good judgment.
Minor premise: Obama has selected Biden for vice president.
Conclusion: Biden is a good selection for vice president.
Major premise: Biden is a good selection for Vice President.
Minor premise: A good vice president has good judgment.
Conclusion: Biden has good judgment.
Major premise: Biden has good judgment.
Minor premise: Biden has said Obama doesn't have the experience to be a good president.
Conclusion: Obama doesn't have the experience to be a good president.
Biden
1. Voted to invade Iraq
2. Voted for the Patriot Act
3. Voted for FISA reform
4. Supported the surge and never supported withdrawal from Iraq
5. Was informed in 2002 of Bush's aggressive interrogation techniques and said or did nothing
Yet, all we hear from Democrats is how the Bush Administration is "criminal" and the worst administration in history and blah blah blah. Yet, Biden supported everything that the Demcorats claim makes Bush so bad.
Taking Biden just means that the Democrats don't mean anything they say. It is all about power. If taking someone who supported this or that policy gets them elected, that is what they will do. It is only criminal to be a Republican.
Does anyone else find it amusing to read Moe describing other people as "a deeply flawed creep" and "one of the biggest assholes on the planet", as if the psychological concept of projection were still unknown to the rest of us?
Which sort of makes my point. He supported all of these things, good or bad, but then reversed his public position on virtually all of them. The only thing he's consistently endorsed is a partition of Iraq, which may be the long-term outcome but which has been dismissed by everyone else, including the Iraqis.
So the question is: If a President Obama gets a 3 a.m. phone call and then calls his VP for advice, what weight should he give it? Would he suggest a reasoned, substantive course of action or, like the Pirate's Code, a set of options, more a guideline than a hard and fast set of rules?
Joe Biden arguably knows foreign affairs. I just wonder whether he can translate that knowledge into policy and, given his multi-faceted opinions, what that policy might be.
Aristotle the Wingnut says: "Major premise: Biden has good judgment.
Minor premise: Biden has said Obama doesn't have the experience to be a good president.
Conclusion: Obama doesn't have the experience to be a good president."
Oh, please. Any time a geezer runs against a guy 20 years younger the "experience" line gets used. It's bullshit and Biden would probably admit that.
Dumbya has been in the White House for close to 8 years now. That's a whole lot of experience, and he STILL isn't up to the job.
DrewShaw says: "Which sort of makes my point. He supported all of these things, good or bad, but then reversed his public position on virtually all of them. The only thing he's consistently endorsed is a partition of Iraq, which may be the long-term outcome but which has been dismissed by everyone else, including the Iraqis."
McCain was against torture, then he was for it. He thought Don Rumsfeld was doing a great job, then when public opinion shifted he changed his mind about that. He fought against MLK Day for years, now he says he was always for it. He thinks there's an Iraq-Pakistan border.
You may think you've made a point but it's a silly one. If you insist on voting only for people who never change their minds about anything then good luck finding a sane candidate.
gocart mozart:
Are you a Springsteen fan?
Poor Moe can't handle the possibility that McCain thought Rumsfeld was doing a good job as long as it looked like Rumsfeld was in fact doing a good job, and then changed his mind when it looked like Rumsfeld was no longer doing such a good job. No, McCain has to be swayed by public opinion rather than his own judgment so Moe can feed his own little fantasy that he's a better and smarter human being than McCain.
Another tributary says: "Poor Moe can't handle the possibility that McCain thought Rumsfeld was doing a good job as long as it looked like Rumsfeld was in fact doing a good job, and then changed his mind when it looked like Rumsfeld was no longer doing such a good job."
It was obvious to anyone with genuine intelligence that the invasion was being carried out in a half-assed fashion from the beginning. There weren't enough troops, massive looting was occurring, and Rumsfeld said, "Stuff happens." That was on April 12th, 2003.
"No, McCain has to be swayed by public opinion rather than his own judgment so Moe can feed his own little fantasy that he's a better and smarter human being than McCain."
I know for a fact that I'm smarter than McCain. That's no great feat.
Joe Klein's conscience, I give you 1000 points, do with them what you will.
I had a nice Sunday drive in little Early Pearly's curly-wurly this afternoon. It was a beautiful day.
By the way, I hear you and Joe have recently reconciled. Congrats on that
Next wingnut attack on Biden will be that he is too old for the job. "My God, he's practically old enough to be J. Sidney McCain III younger brother!" they will soon all shout in unison.
Is it just me, or is this an unusually dispiriting thread?
Even compared to other exercises in partisan nitpicking.
Forty Degrees,
It is a dispiriting thread. But, Larry Moe and Jesus is a troll. Trolls tend to cause dispiriting threads. That is their purpose for posting.
I don't see how this is even good comentary about Biden much less the best. Biden is just a nasty guy. Show me one example of him ever making nice with someone he went after? Also, I have met a lot of bar bores in my life but I have never met one who was in the tank for the big banks and the banking and creditcard industry the way Senator MBNA is. Bar bores tend to be very populist and anti bank. I suspect Megan has never been to a bar that had the kind of person she is claiming Biden is so it sounds really believable to her.
Who knew that Matt Yglesias had such a nice voice.
I know for a fact that I'm smarter than Obama. That's no great feat, either.
Looks like Hugh Hewitt beat me to the Cliff Clavin comparison by a couple of hours!
Who knew that Matt Yglesias had such a nice voice.
Skullberg quotes and writes: "I know for a fact that I'm smarter than McCain. That's no great feat.
I know for a fact that I'm smarter than Obama. That's no great feat, either."
From what I've seen of your posts I don't think you're smarter than Monica Goodling.
Joe Biden is, hands down, smarter than Megan McArdle. gocart mozart is a brilliant nickname.
Question for Joe Klein's conscience - Just what makes you think he has a conscience?
Doesn't change the fact that I'm smarter than Odumba.
Skully quotes and replies: " From what I've seen of your posts I don't think you're smarter than Monica Goodling.
Doesn't change the fact that I'm smarter than Odumba."
But it does. You're not smart enough to know who's smarter than you.
Have you learned how to spell appalling yet?
Sorry, but it's still true. Odumba is a legacy admit at Harvard and an empty suit, what with his 57 states.
Skully quotes and writes: " But it does. You're not smart enough to know who's smarter than you.
Sorry, but it's still true. Odumba is a legacy admit at Harvard and an empty suit, what with his 57 states."
And you're a putative genius who doesn't know what "legacy admit" means.
Dumbya Bush was a legacy admit to Yale. John McCain was a legacy admit (or perhaps just a beneficiary of pure nepotism) to the Naval Academy.
The very last thing Obama was is a "legacy admit," chuckles.
Barack Obama Sr. got his Master's degree from Harvard in 1965. I know enough about college admissions to know that Odumba most likely benefitted from his father's matriculation there.
Skully tries again: "Barack Obama Sr. got his Master's degree from Harvard in 1965. I know enough about college admissions to know that Odumba most likely benefitted from his father's matriculation there."
That might have had some bearing IF Obama had gone to COLLEGE at Harvard. But he didn't.
He did go to law school there. And if you think having an absentee father who got a Master's at Harvard in the 60s had any bearing on his son getting into Harvard Law, I'd like to know what you've been drinking.
For once, I agree with ML&J- it wasn't Obama's father that got him into Harvard Law- even Dubya got to go to Harvard to pursue a professional degree.
I remain shocked, shocked that any political speech was not written 100% by the politician delivering it.
Obama is anything but a legacy admit. His deadbeat father did nothing for him and certainly had nothing to do with his success or getting into college.
It is very interesting that Obama didn't turn out to be a radical conservative because if anything he is a victim of his mother being a leftist nitwit who married two dead beat men and basically abandoning him to his grandparents. His mother's odyssey through the 1960s communist movement didn't give him much of a childhood. Most people would have revolted and gone to the other end of the political spectrum. Obama didn't.
That might have had some bearing IF Obama had gone to COLLEGE at Harvard. But he didn't.
He did go to law school there.
Not only that, he graduated magna cum laude. That's hard to do at almost any law school, much less Harvard. The man is very, very smart.
Immoralist writes: "Not only that, he graduated magna cum laude. That's hard to do at almost any law school, much less Harvard. The man is very, very smart."
Well, yes, but Skullberg figured out all by himself that Santa Claus isn't real. So he has credentials, too.
ML+J,
I'm sorry you are so invested in the fact that Odumba is some kind of mental giant, that you can't see the truth. Odumba's an empty suit who sounds like Dubya when he goes off script.
Skully tries one more time: "I'm sorry you are so invested in the fact that Odumba is some kind of mental giant, that you can't see the truth. Odumba's an empty suit who sounds like Dubya when he goes off script."
At least you were bright enough to give up on your "legacy admit" fuck-up. But since you're (at least) a two-time Dumbya voter, your opinions about intelligence are simply not relevant.
If I showed you a chess set you'd probably love the "horsie."
I didn't vote for President George W. Bush once, let alone twice. I don't plan on voting for Odumba either.
"I didn't vote for President George W. Bush once, let alone twice. I don't plan on voting for Odumba either."
Ah... a convicted felon. Got it.
Try again, no criminal record, was of voting age in 2000, registered to vote since 18, voted in nearly all elections I have been eligible for.
Sorry I don't fit into the box your tiny mind makes. I guess you and Odumba have that in common.
Skully again: "Sorry I don't fit into the box your tiny mind makes. I guess you and Odumba have that in common."
Since you're a fetish fetishist I suspect you didn't vote for Kerry or Gore. Are you one of the bunch nutty enough to go for the wackaloons in the Constitution Party? Or do you write in your militia leader's name?
Whatever it is, you seem to be ashamed of it.
You're the smart one, you figure it out.
My voting history has no bearing on Odumba's intelligence.
It doesn't give it credence, it just proves you're wrong. You may have missed this in my previous post:
Who I voted for has no bearing on Odumba's intelligence... you keep backing your empty suit, and telling yourself he really is smart.
If you NEED me to have voted for two-term President George W. Bush, then go on believing it.
I didn't, it can't be proven, you wouldn't accept it anyway.
I didn't say you did one thing or the other.
I said you were a liar.
It's surprisingly someone who apparently holds intelligence to be a vital quality to be unable to grasp this.
Is the 'two-term' meant to distinguish him from the the previous Bush? It was obvious what Bush you referred to.
Really? Is there another way to interpret this:
Which I am not. Which I never lied about.
Skullberg,
You do realize that myself and Moe are two different people?
Otherwise it seems your skill set is mendacity, stupidity and illiteracy.
But yes, you are still smarter than a Harvard Law School graduate. Doesn't have to be Obama, since he graduated at the top of his class - any graduate, and it still sounds ludicrous.
I assume you were simply the other troll being 'clever' by using different monikers. I, however, appear to be mistaken and for that I apologize. Can you provide me with a complete list of the names you use to post here, so that I don't confuse you in the future?
Given how smart you are, Skullberg, I'm sure you'll figure it out.