Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of Obama . . .
09 Aug 2008 12:27 pm
Liberals wonder why they are parodied as out-of-touch secularists who mix near-total ignorance of traditional Christianity with a seething, idiotic attempt. Here'swhy. This is Protocols of the Elders of Zion level bizarre misinterpretation of another group's symbols.
On a completely unrelated note, I find it amusing that once Ross got rid of those pesky commenters it freed him up to be an even bigger scarecrow slaying douche. What a scared, little man.
If you actually sample those thousands of pages that the Google searches turn up, what you find is this:
1. No liberals are seriously claiming that McCain is the Anti-Christ.
2. Lots of conservatives are claiming that Obama is the Anti-Christ (or his harbinger or is somehow like the Anti-Christ).
3. Lots of conservative 'bible scholars' are debunking the claims by conservatives that Obama is the Anti-Christ (or is his harbinger or whatnot)
4. Lots of EVANGELICAL DEMOCRATS are upset at the ad's imagery. (Are they not authentic Christians because they're Democrats?)
5. Obama as Antichrist is a popular theme of anti-Obama conservative emails.
So this is not the invention of Amy Sullivan's fevered, anti-Semetic-like mind. It's a genuine phenomenon, of murky origins but undoubted existence.
The response by Ross and Megan and others is a bit like the biologist whose refuses to believe that platypuses exist because it is not logical for them to do so.
As someone with personal familiarity with evangelical Christianity, I see this http://www.artsjournal.com/quickstudy/2008/08/verily.html as tapping DIRECTLY into the brain of evangelicals. Perhaps Megan's mainstream Christian background, and a life entirely lived in large metropolises, does not fully comprehend that a good proportion of the evangelical community in suburban/exurban/rural America has such a completely different perspective on life that it as if they live on another planet.
Yeah, boy, those wacky libruls would have to be crazy to think that the republicans would try to label Obama as the Antichrist. Of course, in 2004 the repubs told Arkansans that John Kerry was going to confiscate their Bibles if elected, and they made the Repub convention stage up to look EXACTLY like a pulpit. Boy, those liruls are stupid.
The question is, though: Just how stupid do you have to be to blog for the Atlantic?
You and Ross are totally clueless on this. I know it is hard to believe, but many people kiss snakes and speak in tongues without irony. It seems implausible and laughable, but by your standards many southern people are complete whackjobs in their beliefs about god and jesus. they are considered to be normal within their community
My aunt and uncle were rapture rats who spoke in tongues at church, and from about the age of 10 to 12 I believed what they were saying. I have a pretty good understanding of this entire subculture, but admittedly, I wasn't from the south. It must be even that much freakier to be around essentially entire communities who believe in the rapture.
But, back to the ad. This ad is aimed at the end-times crowd, no doubt about it. It isn't a joke if you think the anti-christ will be a real being that will be incarnated within your lifetime. You must view the ad not from your highly-educated urban back ground, but rather from the background of someone who believes with all their heart the anti-christ is real. The ad is comical to me, personally. But I knew lots of people who would look at that ad as deadly serious actionable information.
Every 5 years or so, there is a whole new "Anti-christ" that is pushed out. Gorbechev was the one I remember, because there was some obscure passage about knowing the beast by a mark on his head. This ad is an undoubted attempt to market Obama as being the anti-christ.
We at Antichrist Corp. have come up an innovative plan to integrate you into our overall structure. As our senior outreach director, John McCain will be traveling the USA, ensuring that democracy and pole-dancing biker chicks are kept safe. Once Operation Rerepresent is over, phase two, Operation Dismissive will be initiated by Senior Sales Representative McArdle. Rest assured that none of you will miss our August Special, far less our November Surprise. Please, pay no attention to WhoreofBabylon Corp. representatives. Your future is safe in our apocalyptic hands. You have only to surrender your misguided logic function to us, and we promise you a rapturous experience.
I realize that right-wing Catholics like Megan and Ross don't actually know a damn thing about fundamentalists, but they're both being lazy and stupid here.
I've seen the various Cloud Ten "Left Behind" movies as well as the previous series of Apocalypse films they produced - John Hagee is involved in a couple of those, and APPEARS IN THEM - and I've also read the Left Behind novels. If Ross and Megan had any similar familiarity with these materials they might view the "He's THE ONE" video with some actual insight. I have no question that the video uses fonts and imagery that are meant to force this association in people who actually ARE in touch with this area of the culture.
Why does Ross pooh-pooh this? Well, he's a GOP operative who is all-out for John McCain. As for Megan, I have no idea. Maybe she's just playing, uh, Antichrist's advocate. But it's a subject she knows nothing about, and her opinion should be assessed with that in mind.
"A seething, idiotic attempt". That describes the Atlantic blogosphere these days, especially with the departure of Yglesias. The above post barely makes sense, even if you correct for the obvious word substitutions.
The referents of the McCain ad is totally obvious to anyone who has even a passing familiarity with fundie culture.
Crabby Pants says: "Has anyone descended into wanker-dom faster than Douthat?"
I saw it coming when he was bemoaning not being accepted as "one of the gang" by Rush Limbaugh. Then there was his "Barack Hitler Obama" post, which was his declaration of war. Between now and the election he's going to be behaving like the bastard child of Karl Rove and Kathryn Jean Lopez. Only worse.
It's his chance to ingratiate his way into the gang by proving that he can be as nasty and lickspittlish as any of them. Backslaps from Hannity await! Maybe he can do some fill-in spots for Mark Levin!
Oh. I then googled "Obama Nicolae Carpathia" and came up with 3,160.
If, however, you do "McCain Nicolae Carpathia", you get 2.
Both of which are from a page which specifically calls Obama the antiChrist.
Even for you Megan this was a shoddy post.
As per Ross - I've always thought it was his real self, as apart from racism, my real issue with him was his hypocrisy - I think the trigger was the dismal reception of his book.
Appropriate Moe - There could have been flashing neon 616 and 666 in that ad and Ross wouldn't have seen anything.
Also - re those google numbers
I googled "Obama Antichrist" and, sure enough, a remarkable 779,000 hits come up. Cue sinister music. Then I googled "McCain Antichrist." 510,000 hits.
But if you actually use quotes so its an exact match
Having been raised in a Pentecostal Church (Church of God) in the South, with Baptists on the paternal side, I can assure you, Megan, and you, Ross, that the ad's portrayal of Obama speaks directly to the consciousness of at least some of those who believe in the Anti-Christ and the Rapture.
Megan, it is you and Ross who are failing to apprehend at least one of the meanings of the ad, assuring its makers that they have succeeded in making the message--which would seem ridiculous to the majority of Americans--deniable, and those who articulate it that meaning, ridiculous and even paranoid.
Since when was whackjob discussion and use of the Anti-christ "traditional Christianity"? Modern-day evangelical cargo cult Christianity, yes. Backwoods heretical Christianity, sure. But traditional Christianity? Do you mean Catholic? Orthodox? Anglican? What is "traditional Christianity"?
I think Ross and Megan just don't have much experience with southern stylke fudnamentalism.
And I second the above commenterswho not that turnign off comments has unleashed the real Ross, he is just the Corner light, basically Goldberg or Lopez but a little better ability to talk to liberals.
"near-total ignorance of traditional Christianity with a seething, idiotic attempt"
Attempt at what? You mean contempt? Or did you forget the last half of that sentence?
At any rate, it might be unfair to slam the "near-total ignorance of traditional Christianity" that secular liberals have without mentioning modern Christians "near-total ignorance" of their own religion. Yes, I know that Tim Lahaye and others are interested in pushing this comic book version of the Antichrist. But I don't think that's the "traditional" view....
I was raised in a Reform Jewish Synagogue in the suburbs of Chicago, and the subtext was obvious to me. To not see it requires willful blindness and intellectual dishonesty, but then, I guess that is a job requirement to be a conservative pundit.
Let it also be noted that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion was not a "misinterpretation", but a deliberate forgery, aimed at damaging Jews through a distorted and knowingly dishonest attack on Judaic history and religion. Those interested in history might note that it was a forgery by extreme conservatives, and embraced by extreme conservatives globally. Also, when a version was published in 1905, it was the 12th and final chapter in a book predicting, yes, the coming of the anti-Christ! These are fairly well-known facts, and easily accessible.
I suggest Megan thinks through what she has posted and makes some substantial revisions - for accuracy, if nothing else.
Jim, you wouldn't know an effete hard-left gasbag is it rammed a tire-gauge up your ass. As for celebrity balloons, why don't we discuss the unfaithful, dishonest, financially corrupt old fraud who is the current nominee of your corrupt party of Abramoffs, Vitters, Craigs, Stevenses, Cheneys and Bushes?
Jenkins/LaHaye looney-tunes is about as far from "traditional Christianity" as you're likely to get -- both in terms of the actual teachings of the Bible and the "Onward Christian Soldiers" theology that is actually "traditional" Christianity as practiced in the United States. This is also to say nothing of the fact that the R.C. Church--founded by one J.H. Christ and Simon Called Peter--doesn't entirely approve of the end-of-days nuts trying to immatize the eschaton. This is probably why Hagee calls it bad names.
Christianity existed in America for about 300 years without turning fascist -- these red state weirdos may be many things but they are much more ignorant of traditional Christianity than any mainstream Democrat.
Everyone in this forum who takes this "Anti-Christ" stuff seriously is desperate. Republicans don't win elections because Americans are credulous dupes who vote against liberals because of fear-mongering tactics appealing to their prejudices. Republicans win elections because Democrats want to take away their money and their freedoms. Is that simple and clear enough for everyone?
It's Democrats who play on the fears of an ignorant electorate. Fear of the planet somehow imploding. Fear of being denied health care. Fear that someone out there has more material wealth than they do. Fear that someone might try to take the schools out from under the thumb of the teachers' unions. Fear that individuals might deter the attacks of criminals by using their own weapons. Fear that someone who's not black might use the "n" word. Fear that the government might not be there to bail them out every time they make a stupid decision.
So look in the mirror, Democrats. You won't see the anti-christ Karl Rove looking back at you, but just another irrational, deluded liberal.
Wow - talk about missing the point. Without getting into deeper discussion or endorsement of Christian theology: the Anti-Christ is not a force that can be opposed. He comes, launches a reign of terror, and is ultimately schwacked by the returned Jesus. Those who oppose this are opposing the infallibility of the Bible/prophecy. The idea of "stopping" the Anti-Christ is a modern Hollywood fiction, not a tenet of Christian theology.
Thus the diabolical genius of the McCain ad is what, exactly? And appeals to who, exactly? And is intended to get them to do what, exactly? The only answer I know for certain is to question two - "not Christians." Hence "near-total ignorance of traditional Christianity with a seething, idiotic attempt."
"Liberals" should be replaced by "non-Christians" (or even "anti-Christians") at the outset of this post, rest same.
FWIW, I was raised a Christian and picked up a lot of end-times imagery in my 12 years of private Baptist schooling. If there's any Antichrist subtext in the McCain ad then it was done very poorly, because I missed it completely.
It's just an effective jab at the messianic imagery that Obama's own campaign has specialized in.
Megan's right. This millenial interpretation is on par with reading about a Roman Catholic communion service and concluding that they're cannibals.
CFB writes: "Everyone in this forum who takes this "Anti-Christ" stuff seriously is desperate. Republicans don't win elections because Americans are credulous dupes who vote against liberals because of fear-mongering tactics appealing to their prejudices. Republicans win elections because Democrats want to take away their money and their freedoms. Is that simple and clear enough for everyone?"
In 2004 Repiglicans ran on fear of Muslims and fear of homosexuals. Is that simple and clear enough for you?
Your effete, draft-dodging, cheerleader, dry-drunk fake cowboy president has thrown out habeas corpus and instituted wholesale wiretapping. Women are being forced to drink their own breast milk and rip out piercings with pliers in order to get on frigging airplanes. We're fighting two pointless wars and he ran each of them incompetently. Osama bin Laden is still alive and we're the World Capital of Torture.
You're a member of the scumbag's party and the only question is: Are you evil, stupid, insane, or some combination of the three?
In any event, the GOP is going to get whipped halfway to extinction in November and I hope you cry yourself to sleep on Election Night. Your senile standard-bearer is hopeless and he'll drag down a couple of dozen in Congress and the Senate as well. You can only scare people for so long when you're incompetent at everything else.
Good grief. I grew up in Oklahoma, home of Billy Joe Hargis and Oral Roberts. I've been exposed to fundamentalists... and I didn't think that ad was trying to suggest that Obama is the Antichrist; rather that he's a self-appointed Messiah. The Democrats are having to reach really far if this is the best they can dredge up.
The language mimics that of the KJV, which sounds pompous to modern ears. The type face looks very much like Trajan, a lovely face, but vastly overused today for movie titles and credits; I would bet it was chosen for those connotations rather than for similarity to the Left Behind series.
The parting of the Red Sea clip appears right after Obama going on about how his election will be the moment "the rise in the oceans began to slow." Singling out the first beast of Daniel's dream having eagle's wings to try to tie it to the eagle of Obama's hubristic pseudo-presidential seal is about at the level of arguing that they both breathe. (BTW, the lion with eagle's wings gets plucked--I don't see that in "The One," do you?)
You did notice that Edwards finished a distant 3rd in the Dem primary and McCain is the Rep nominee?
The whole celeb attack is particularly funny coming from McCain. Which Senator has hosted SNL twice? Made cameos in sseveral movies and TV shows? Who has the most appearances of any guest on The Daily Show for God's sake? Hint it ain't Obama.
Which candidate has 11(?) houses, takes private jets whereever he goes and wears $500 shoes? Again who is the elitist?
There seems to be a lot of projection on McCains' part in these attacks:-)
And to head of the wing nuts who will start debating whether the charge that McCain is an elitist matters. I agree it doesn't matter. I could care less about that nonesense. But I'm not the one attacking Obama as an elitst celebrity either, McCain is. If McCain wants to base his attack on this nonesense then lets call a spade a spade and apply his own standards to him as well.
Jenkins/LaHaye looney-tunes is about as far from "traditional Christianity" as you're likely to get -- both in terms of the actual teachings of the Bible and the "Onward Christian Soldiers" theology that is actually "traditional" Christianity as practiced in the United States.
Huh? Contemporary American conservative Christianity is much closer to traditional Christianity than the wishy-washy liberal variants of the religion that have arisen in western nations over the last few decades. Traditional Christianity is full of harsh and uncompromising rules governing people's lives that modern American Christians no longer observe. In fact, outside the United States and other western nations, traditional Christian morals and values and behaviors are much more common. A good illustration is the approaching schism in the Anglican Communion over homosexuality and other issues. Most Anglicans no longer live in England or America. They live in Africa and Asia. And that African and Asian majority is much more conservative and traditionalist than western Anglicans.
Christianity existed in America for about 300 years without turning fascist
Good grief. Do you know anything about how gays, Jews, atheists, adulterers, fornicators, etc. were treated by Christians in America in the 18th and 19th centuries? They were horribly oppressed. Southern Christians not only kept slaves, but defended slavery as the Will of God. Women were essentially treated as the property of their husbands or fathers, and the idea that women should be treated as the social and political equals of men would have been considered heresy by the vast majority of American Christians during most of American history.
As much as you obviously despise the modern "religious right" in America, it's practically a model of enlightened humanism in comparison to American Christianity of the past.
Sauce for the gander not going down so well. It's apparently Ok for "The One", to wax poetic about his role in reversing the evil tide (literally), of global warming, but it's not Ok to mock him for it. Obama needs to run a campaign ad where he says, "I'm not a major deity, I just play one on TV". With this disclaimer in place, he can then go on to "pontificate", about curing all humanity's ills without concern he's giving McCain the ammo he needs to poke fun. Don't count on it.
Oh, and compared to Obama's tax policy, I'll take the Anti-Christ. "Better to rule in Hell, than to serve in Heaven", that's my new motto.
Klug quotes and writes: ""We're fighting two pointless wars"
So you disagree with Obama, Moe?"
On a number of things, yes, and this is one of them. There is very little point in continuing to pretend that there's a real "mission" in Afghanistan or that we're going to build some sort of democracy there. It isn't working. The countryside is dominated by the Taliban and the warlords and our eventual "these people are crazy" withdrawal is inevitable.
The only tenable reason for staying there at all is to use it as a base to attack al Qaeda in Pakistan, but let's face it, the likelihood of that working out is receding by the day.
...a LOT of the people posting comments such as...
"Do you know anything about how gays, Jews, atheists, adulterers, fornicators, etc. were treated by Christians in America in the 18th and 19th centuries? They were horribly oppressed." -- Mixner
....haven't a clue-one about Christianity. All they know is all they know and they don't know a LOT. Hence the d/mis-information. But they don't seem to really care about that. Just like they don't care much for learning the truth of any matter that they've already set their minds too.
I blame the vaunted American public education system for teaching children WHAT to think instead of teaching them HOW to think.
If it turns out that Obama doesn't earn the customary support of that crucial Democratic base -- hardcore Christian fundamentalists -- then we'll know this ad has done its vile work all too ably.
Jeremy Brown writes: "If it turns out that Obama doesn't earn the customary support of that crucial Democratic base -- hardcore Christian fundamentalists -- then we'll know this ad has done its vile work all too ably."
That's an impotent and ignorant analysis, Jeremy. McCain doesn't just want to take votes away from Obama. He also needs to maintain as much of the Bush-slurping base as possible. The fundies LOVE their Dumbya, and they're not totally on board with McCain. This ad is a hint to that group that McCain shares their twisted fantasy lives.
RE: Hey, hundreds of thousands of hits for Obama as 'antichrist........? that's 'nutin....google antichrist Bush and you get 1.19 million hits...where does that leave Amy?
Really? So you're seriously claiming, are you, that American Christianity in the 18th and 19th centuries did not oppress gays, Jews, atheists, adulterers, etc.? You seriously need to acquaint yourself with American history.
TO: All
RE: Typcial 'Progressive' Misunderstanding
"Really? So you're seriously claiming, are you, that American Christianity in the 18th and 19th centuries did not oppress gays, Jews, atheists, adulterers, etc.? You seriously need to acquaint yourself with American history." -- Mixner
Most people with either a junior high school education AND a desire to be honest would know better than to try this foil.
However, your typical 'Progressive' will deliberately misunderstand things.
User talk:MoeLarryAndJesus
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re your email
Sorry ML&J, but I can see at least four other admins who have looked this over or handled a request from you to be unblocked under this name, and I can't just unblock you. The block wasn't for your username (personally, I think it's fine), it was for your deliberate and knowing trolling.
However, I can reduce your indefinite block, which I have done so; it will expire in 48 hours, at which point you can request a change of name. Please let me know via email if you have any trouble in the meantime, but don't ask me to reduce it further. No more trolling, though, please?
I also would ask that the first thing you do in two day's time is to request the name change, and to refrain from making any other edits to anywhere other than this talk page, til the name change is done. Is that reasonable? Neil (not Proto ►) 11:26, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Remember all the anti-Semitic behavior that The Passion was supposed to foment? And remember how none of that happened?
I swear it's the same people, now, worrying that McCain is appealing to apocalypticists, and swearing that they recognize the marks of this particular brand of demagoguery.
"I swear, based on my affiliation with fundamentalists at some time or another, that this is what they're doing."
Great. Now folks are touting credentials that qualify them to understand putative idiots. Brilliant.
Seven Machos, Wikipedia is a Reich Wing cult. It has a well-known conservative bias. My repeated vandalism there was simply an example of what we on the left call "speaking truth to power".
Oh, good grief. Out of curiosity, I had to look at this ad. (don't live in the US, non-Christian, non-Republican). It's clear now why the ad got so many knickers in a twist: It's a strongly-done parody, and "the faithful" (some commenting here) are the target.
Bryan C. was exactly right: "It's just an effective jab at the messianic imagery that Obama's own campaign has specialized in.
Megan's right. This millenial interpretation is on par with reading about a Roman Catholic communion service and concluding that they're cannibals."
6:35 is an impostor (notice that I have always spelled it with an o). This happened yesterday too, its just some troll who wants attention. Don't give it to him. We on the left are above such petty games.
I'm a Catholic who knows very little of fundamentalist culture (except that it scares me a little bit). I'm perfectly willing to accept that the commenters here are right, but that doesn't really undermine McCain as much as you all think.
This seems more like an instance of turnabout is fair play. Obama clearly peddles himself as the Messiah and McCain's ad is intended to ridicule Obama for his outrageous ego. Since Obama took the campaign down that road, what's wrong with McCain playing Obama's game and saying, yes, Obama is a supreme being, just not that one.
Those interested in history might note that it was a forgery by extreme conservatives,
It was a forgery by the Tsar's secret police. What exactly about them made them "conservatives"? Were they in favor of less government regulation? Low taxes? An originalist interpretation of the Constitution?
Chuck, the impostor wrote that, not me. If you stick around long enough you will learn to tell the difference between the trolls and myself. It's pretty clear, actually. Isn't it?
Has the Atlantic considered hiring an actual right-wing blogger to serve as a bug light for all these gadflies so that thoughtful bloggers like Megan and Ross can have functional comment sections?
As for Megan's ignorance of Left Behind et. al. symbology, McCain and gang are likely to be at least as ignorant as she. Unwilling to come to terms as a party (Obama actually does seem willing, but few join him there) with their own weaknesses, Dems and apologists unsurprisingly are more interested in finding an out group against which they can rally the troops. There are few more out than the Left Behind crew.
To elaborate on my 6:49 post, the real me never uses ad hominem attacks, certainly not ones as mindlessly petulent as Bushpig. That one sounds like it came from one of the drueling sub-humans that posts at the Daily Kos.
David Warner says: "Has the Atlantic considered hiring an actual right-wing blogger to serve as a bug light for all these gadflies so that thoughtful bloggers like Megan and Ross can have functional comment sections?"
Ross has taken those final two steps to the right and he is now "an actual right-wing blogger." One more step and he'll be Michael Savage. By Election Day he may be even worse than Savage.
I would never spell "drooling" or "petulant" wrong. I use ad hominem attacks on deserving targets. And Daily Kos isn't infested by subhumans, but Little Green Shitballs and freerepublic.com are.
Sauce for the gander not going down so well. It's apparently Ok for "The One", to wax poetic about his role in reversing the evil tide (literally), of global warming, but it's not Ok to mock him for it. Obama needs to run a campaign ad where he says, "I'm not a major deity, I just play one on TV". With this disclaimer in place, he can then go on to "pontificate", about curing all humanity's ills without concern he's giving McCain the ammo he needs to poke fun. Don't count on it.
Oh, and compared to Obama's tax policy, I'll take the Anti-Christ. "Better to rule in Hell, than to serve in Heaven", that's my new motto.
An impostor posts: "That one sounds like it came from one of the drueling sub-humans that posts at the Daily Kos."
Only an idiot or a lying hack would fail to realize Kos's importance to the Progressive movement. When everyone else was expressing sympathy or keeping quiet about the dismemberment of a bunch of Bushpig military contractors, Kos had the courage to say "screw them."
So, McCain is convincing nutty evangelicals who believe Obama is the Anti-Christ to not vote for Obama?
I'm guessing those predisposed to such a view (Obama=Antichrist) would already be affected by fellow-travelers and not "subtle hints" in McCain ads.
And, remember, these nuts aren't just Republicans (Google "Fred Phelps").
Finally, Megan please edit this sentence, my head hurts: "Liberals wonder why they are parodied as out-of-touch secularists who mix near-total ignorance of traditional Christianity with a seething, idiotic attempt."
David Nieporent, have you considered learning some history? You really need to have laid out for you what made the Okhrana extreme conservatives? You don't think reactionary monarchism, a hatred of democracy and virulent anti-Semitism qualifies? God above, man, can you read? Do you ever engage in conscious rational thought?
Pam, don't be a fuckwit. No-one is advocating Socialism. We just don't like the corrupt Bush-fascism for which you rightwing traitors have sold our country.
I suggest it's proof of nothing more than google searches are not evidence of anything more than people have way too much free time on their hands.
3. One reason why some devout people are freaking out over Obama is simply how clear it is that he is utterly unprepared for the job of President. And how utterly captivated Obamamaniacs are. I've tried to debate a few and it's a total waste of time. No fact, no argument and no explanation is sufficient for some. Why do they support Obama? Because they do.
And that creeps out a lot of my more devout Christian friends.
Zilifant, don't let Mike Godwin (whoever that is) stop you from making your point. Good-hearted people need to scream NAZI NAZI NAZI as loud as they can, as often as they can, until this Residency is put on trial for war crimes.
It's the only way we can protect innocents like Khaled Sheikh Mohammed from more torturous torture by these Fascists.
Good-hearted people need to scream NAZI NAZI NAZI as loud as they can, as often as they can, until this Residency is put on trial for war crimes.
Posted by MoeLarryAndJesus | August 9, 2008 7:28 PM
Hmm, I am all for arresting, trying, neutering and executing war criminals like Bush, but I don't think the White House deserves to suffer. And I am pretty sure that KSM is another of Cheney's little schemes gone wrong.
Chuck- Nice! Grade school taunts work pretty well in professional settings - you'll go far. I am clueless! Ouch! Tell that to my patent attorney - he agrees!
I think Megan did study at the U of C business school, so she does know what market segmentation means. She gets the idea now, even if y'all don't. It isn't aimed at anyone writing in this post.
Note, there is no almost zero for McCain with this ad. It isn't designed to change anyones mind, or sway an independent voter. It is designed as a mass GOTV tool, to get more of a targeted group of evangelicals to vote. Others beyond this group dismiss the ad, make fun of it and think it is silly. However, for the believers, it might spur them to vote. If they want to be raptured, they have to oppose the anti-christ, here on earth. It is probably worth a few 10s of thousands of extra votes, with no chance of losing votes. In rural Florida, a few thousand extra votes is a big deal. All in all, an effective ad. The controversy only helps it.
All this from the same crowd that sees a hidden racist message in McCain's comparing Obama's celebrity status to Brittany Spears and Paris Hilton? Sorry. Such a claim is patently silly and hardly worth the effort in typing this response.
The ad is in no way trying to call Obama the anti-christ. What it IS doing is point out Obama's very creepy habit of referring to himself in quasi-messianic terms, and encouraging a cult following to go even further. Why is religious imagery used? Because that's the imagery Obama and his groupies use themselves. If there's something unsettling about the ad, it should be the words Obama himself uses. When you and your followers try to paint you as a messianic figure, then you deserve to have that portrayal mocked. Trying to find some sinister, coded message just reveals you to be the kooks that you are.
"Nice! Grade school taunts work pretty well in professional settings - you'll go far. I am clueless! Ouch! Tell that to my patent attorney - he agrees!" -- mickslam
You're either forgetting what you said or your REALLY clueless. Indeed, the two are probably one-in-the-same for you.
After all. You were the one who used the term first.
"You and Ross are totally clueless on this." --
Posted by mickslam | August 9, 2008 2:09 PM
How scary you are,Stephen. For a moment I almost forgot my concerns about running an adulterous, corrupt, Bush-kissing old fraud for the Republican candidate. How careless of me. By the way, do you approve of John McCain betraying a crippled first wife to chase a younger woman? And how about the Keating Five? Just the sort of honorable man we need, eh?
There's a rather important fact all the rapture experts around here seem to have overlooked. The percentage of knuckle-dragging, snake-wielding, tongue-talking, cousin-marrying, rapture-believing slavery sympathizers who think the Anti-Christ will be an American president is in the single digits. That's because the vast majority of them, for all their faults, are extremely patriotic and believe that American Exceptionalism is solely due to God's providence. In that vein, they believe/hope that America is the place of refuge that the persecuted flee to "on wings of eagles." While I haven't read any of the Left Behind books, I am at least knowledgeable enough about various rapture theories from studying them fifteen years ago to know that Tim LaHaye would never make Nicolae Carpathia an American and Wikipedia has confirmed that he is Romanian. That's because the most popular view is that he will be a European, which is also why Rapture Watchers are extremely leery of the E.U. What they see in Obama is an extremely charismatic, messianic candidate who has charmed the press with his progressive agenda and citizen-of-the-world rhetoric. That's got them all a twitter not because they think Obama is the Anti-Christ, but for the same reason that just about every piece of global news gets their hearts racing; they think it's all paving the way for "the man of sin," and they are getting a glimpse of how the world will fall under his spell.
So libs and the media (but I repeat myself) think that Obama is divine and conservative Christians think that he is demonic. Either way, he clearly doesn't have anything useful to say on policy.
Well, Holdfast, after that searingly insightful piece of analysis, what can we say? How brilliantly you laid out your case! Did this concern stop you from voting for the Chimp-in-Chief? Hmmmm?
I know it's been said, but let me please just reiterate that the concept of the Rapture is recent (the last century or so), and is not a part of traditional Christianity. It is a specific interpretation by a small number of evangelicals (it's hard to know how many, but probably not a majority).
In addition, it's entirely likely that even most evangelicals who do subscribe to this eschatology would find claims that Obama is the antichrist to be ridiculous. Anyone can say anything on a website, but I can't imagine that more than a handful of people would actually take this sort of thing seriously. I know a lot of evangelicals on that theological bandwagon. You might think their beliefs are strange, but that doesn't mean they will believe anything.
There are more Dems out there who think Bush personally issued the order for 9/11 than evangelicals who would take seriously the claim that Obama is the antichrist. Neither group is large enough to worry about.
Bushpig sympathizers like Stephen may think they can fool the rest of us, but they can't.
These ads are clearly comparing Obama to the Antichrist. I know this because of the deep insight I formed into the Religious Right when I watched a couple of the Left Behind movies. Plus my Gender Studies professor agrees with me.
In conclusion, Bushpig Fascist wingnut Repiglican.
memomachine (how appropriate) writes: "One reason why some devout people are freaking out over Obama is simply how clear it is that he is utterly unprepared for the job of President."
Since those people were gaga-in-love with Dumbya it's obvious that their judgment is worthless.
Yes, how dare liberals actually take Christianity and its symbols seriously.
Doing so is... an insult to Christians, apparently.
Taking (Christian) religious beliefs seriously is not an insult to Christians. Treating Christians as reactionary bigots who respond Pavlovianly to obscure symbols (*) and take their marching orders from preachers who link random events to mainstream politicians is an insult to Christians. The tone of this commentary is "Ha, ha, Obama is the antichrist - only a nutjob would think that, and look at all these nutjobs who obviously believe that!"
(*) The obscurity here does not refer to the fact that most people don't know the relevant biblical passages, but to the fact that liberals are scouring the advertisements for subliminal blips.
"Chuck, have you thought of learning English? You seem a little off the pace. I'd hate to see you sent back to your native land by the evil old GOP." -- jasmine
For those interested...
...I'm co-chair of my precinct for the county Republican party.
David Nieporent writes: "Treating Christians as reactionary bigots who respond Pavlovianly to obscure symbols (*) and take their marching orders from preachers who link random events to mainstream politicians is an insult to Christians. The tone of this commentary is "Ha, ha, Obama is the antichrist - only a nutjob would think that, and look at all these nutjobs who obviously believe that!""
Only a nutjob would think that, and plenty of examples of nutjobs who do indeed think that are available.
And the so-called non-Pavlovian nature of many fundamentalist Christians isn't exactly disproven when they all fall over themselves screeching about things like the Piss Christ, or when a dipshit like Bill O'Reilly whines about a "War On Christmas" and gets so much support from the, uh, non-Pavlovians.
Here it comes people. Here comes the formulation for the post hoc argument for why Obama will lose.
McGovern? Eagleton. Carter in 1980? A secret deal with Iran. Dukakis? The tank picture and Willie Horton. Gore? Internet invention. Kerry. Swiftboating.
Obama? Ads that secretly appeal to religious zealots.
As we all know, no conservative or Republican can win any election without trickery and lies.
And the so-called non-Pavlovian nature of many fundamentalist Christians isn't exactly disproven when they all fall over themselves screeching about things like the Piss Christ, or when a dipshit like Bill O'Reilly whines about a "War On Christmas" and gets so much support from the, uh, non-Pavlovians.
Well, it doesn't quite rise to the level of idiocy of thinking that comparing Obama to Paris Hilton is racist, but I admit that it's pretty mindless.
But why do you think that the people who watch Bill O'Reilly are somehow the same people who allegedly recognize and respond to the allusions to the antichrist in these Obama ads?
But why do you think that the people who watch Bill O'Reilly are somehow the same people who allegedly recognize and respond to the allusions to the antichrist in these Obama ads?
Posted by David Nieporent | August 9, 2008 8:13 PM
Because ignorance is bliss - or rapture? After all, intelligent people don't listen to the whinings of a drugged-up, bulbous pervert like Limbaugh. But then, intelligent people don't try and defend the monkey cage of fundamentalist religion.
Only a Repiglican would be upset about public funding for desecration of their religious symbols. What reactionaries. How unsophisticated. I urinate on pictures of my mother and my sister all the time and they don't get offended.
Moe, you are behind the times. Nowadays you have to actually sleep with mom and sis to be a Republican in good standing. The good old days of toilet play espoused by Barbara Bush have long since passed.
That last comment was not by me, Puck. There is an impostor posting in my name. Possibly several. I think there is one left wing impostor and one right wing impostor, and possibly even a third one who is probably insane.
I waded through most of the comments and it seems that only one or two other people have pointed this out: Megan, your post makes no sense. Nutjobs are claiming that Obama is the antichrist, and liberals are pointing this out. How in the world does that translate into liberals being "out-of-touch secularists who mix near-total ignorance of traditional Christianity with a seething, idiotic attempt"?
I call BS on this. Half of the comments are insane people impersonating me, including people who impersonate me to (correctly) describe how stupid the other imposters are. You can't seriously claim to have read all of that drivel.
morzer writes: "It seems the fundie trolls have gone back to Mordor for the night. Wonderful what wit and reason can do against such shambling creatures."
Yes, we on the left are known for our penetrating wit and our deep commitment to reason. The Bushpig Fascist hatemonkeys could never match our clever cleverness.
yazzel writes: "Moe, I do miss watching you provoke the enraged Douthat into revealing his true colors. How easily you tormented the poor seething brute!"
Yes, well, all in a day's work. Yazzel, I'm a little bit tired of these idiot trolls constantly impersonating me. Yes, it's a tribute, but it is also a distraction from my more pressing work of mindlessly repeating things like "Bushpig" and "Repiglican" ad nauseum. Saying those clever insults over and over makes feel good about myself, and also makes me feel funny in my pants, but in a good way. You make me feel funny in my pants too, I hope you aren't offended.
Moe: I meant the HOWARD brothers. Larry's name was Fine. You might have misheard the the boxing episode. Curly says "Moe, Larry, the cheese!" Not "Moe, Larry and Jesus."
Maybe I should read more Bible and watch less Stooges.
Moe: I meant the HOWARD brothers. Larry's name was Fine. You might have misheard the the boxing episode. Curly says "Moe, Larry, the cheese!" Not "Moe, Larry and Jesus."
Maybe I should read more Bible and watch less Stooges.
I think that a number of commentors have misunderstood Ross's original post. He is not claiming that Obama is the Antichrist and neither is he commenting on people who do believe that, since he doesn't seem to think very many such people exist. What he is saying is that the Republicans have run certain ads with religious imagery with the purpose of mocking the attempts by the media and his supporters to portray Obama as a messiah but that certain Democrats and media people have taken these ads and, either deliberately or ignorantly, misinterpereted them as painting Obama as the Antichrist. Thus he is criticising the democrats and MSM for their ignorance of and hostility to Christianity.
Consider this quote, "the people who think Obama might be the Antichrist and the people who think the McCain campaign is cannily designing its campaign ads to exploit fears that Obama might be the Antichrist deserve each other. (The difference, of course, is that the former group consists of minor-league kooks, obscure bloggers and chain-email peddlers, whereas the latter consists of Democratic strategists and writers for Time Magazine - the same Time, one might note, that has not once but twice put Barack Obama on its cover with a halo around his head.)"
Note his comparison between "minor league kooks" on the one hand and Time magazine on the other.
There's a rather important fact all the rapture experts around here seem to have overlooked. The percentage of knuckle-dragging, snake-wielding, tongue-talking, cousin-marrying, rapture-believing slavery sympathizers who think the Anti-Christ will be an American president is in the single digits. That's because the vast majority of them, for all their faults, are extremely patriotic and believe that American Exceptionalism is solely due to God's providence. In that vein, they believe/hope that America is the place of refuge that the persecuted flee to "on wings of eagles." While I haven't read any of the Left Behind books, I am at least knowledgeable enough about various rapture theories from studying them fifteen years ago to know that Tim LaHaye would never make Nicolae Carpathia an American and Wikipedia has confirmed that he is Romanian. That's because the most popular view is that he will be a European, which is also why Rapture Watchers are extremely leery of the E.U. What they see in Obama is an extremely charismatic, messianic candidate who has charmed the press with his progressive agenda and citizen-of-the-world rhetoric. That's got them all a twitter not because they think Obama is the Anti-Christ, but for the same reason that just about every piece of global news gets their hearts racing; they think it's all paving the way for "the man of sin," and they are getting a glimpse of how the world will fall under his spell.
The percentage of knuckle-dragging, snake-wielding, tongue-talking, cousin-marrying, rapture-believing slavery sympathizers who think the Anti-Christ will be an American president is in the single digits. That's because the vast majority of them, for all their faults, are extremely patriotic and believe that American Exceptionalism is solely due to God's providence.
OT: in light of today's events, one might ask that skidmark on the underpants of society Matt Steinglass whether he would revise his smug views of June 21 in the thread "Speaking Truth to Power":
In today's world, in an era of nation-states, it's impossible to conquer and rule ethnolinguistically alien territory, and the wealth and power of Russia's ruling class are tied to corporate interests that cannot conceivably profit from a war to conquer Poland.
I'm sure that this will come as great comfort to Georgia.
Perhaps the Georgians should stand on the border and say, "Wait! We're ethnolinguistically alien to you! You can't conquer and rule us! A risible leftwing pseudointellectual wanker says so!"
yazzel, Renee can't prove it because she is a lying liar hyppocrite Bushpig.
By the way, I apologize for the very weird behavior of the troll at 9:32. These people who mimic me have no respect for civilized debate. I think our overwhelming wit, reason, and committment to good faith arguments have scared away the trolls for now, although they will no doubt return. But together, yazzel, you and I will thwart them. Indeed, we shining word-warriors of the Left shall impale them on the sharp blade of our intellect. The justice of our cause, in combination with our nobility of spirit, shall verily win the day.
And as for the Reich wing Bushpig mercenaries, when they are torn apart by noble insurgent fighters, let us all repeat, with conviction: "Screw Them".
lampwick, you seem like an intelligent soul. What do you think should be done about the Bushpig sycophant who continues to impersonate me? (And if you doubt that the above is an impersonation, note that he claims to like Kos. I have said before that I despise Kos.)
On a completely unrelated note, I find it amusing that once Ross got rid of those pesky commenters it freed him up to be an even bigger scarecrow slaying douche.
Given the utterly abysmal quality of the commenters on this site, it would be no loss if all commenting was disabled permanently. You people are a bad joke.
Wow. This is either unintentional brilliance or AWing as hell. Either way, a well designed-post for what your job is, but sad for anyone who tries to take you seriously.
The percentage of knuckle-dragging, snake-wielding, tongue-talking, cousin-marrying, rapture-believing slavery sympathizers who think the Anti-Christ will be an American president is in the single digits. That's because the vast majority of them, for all their faults, are extremely patriotic and believe that American Exceptionalism is solely due to God's providence.
Posted by Renee | August 9, 2008 11:06 PM
Proof, please?
Posted by yazzel | August 9, 2008 11:20 PM
Oh, yes! Because the level of argumentation here demands footnotes, after all. Just pop into your local bookstore sometimes and browse the books on end time prophecy. They will virtually all claim that the Anti-Christ will be European. That is the basic, default assumption among most rapture believers. To find a people claiming that he will be American you have to go into self-published books and kooks on the street corner wearing sandwich boards. I'm sure every president has them, but the one that I recall seeing went something like this: Ronald=6 Wilson=6 Reagan=6. You can call Lindsey, Haggee, LaHaye, Jeffries, Walvoord, and other popular end times writers simplistic fundamentalists, but they do base their beliefs on a more sophisticated biblical interpretation than that. They all go back to Daniel's prophecy of the beast with ten horns rising out of the sea and spend considerable time in their books explaining why this beast is the revived Roman Empire. Hal Lindsey's Wikipedia entry explains the standard Rapture Watcher position:
"In The Late, Great Planet Earth, Lindsey wrote that he had concluded, since there was no apparent mention of the United States of America in the books of Daniel or Revelation, that the USA would no longer be a major player on the geo-political stage by the time the tribulations of the end times arrived. Lindsey also interpreted from Revelations and prophetic texts that the European Economic Community, which preceded the European Union, was destined (according to Biblical prophecy) to become a "United States of Europe", with ten members, which in turn he says is destined to become a "Revived Roman Empire" ruled by the Antichrist. The European Union currently has 27 members and the Western European Union (a military alliance) has 10 primary members." For anyone to deny that this is standard end time belief while claiming they know all about those Rapture believing fundamentalists is disingenuous, one way or another.
"It seems the fundie trolls have gone back to Mordor for the night." -- mozer
Unlike the real denizens of Mordor, whose projection is blatantly obvious to even the most casual observer....
....a Go[o]dly number of us have other things to do outside of the blogosphere, i.e., preparing supper to enjoy with our extended families. Watching a good movie. Reading a good book. Writing computer code. Sleeping. Appreciating our spouses.
It's called having a [REAL] Life.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Life is like a sewer. You get out of it what you put into it.]
Hmmm.. and it never crossed Lindsey's mind that the Books of Daniel and Revelation were written before the US (or Europe!) existed? Are you endorsing Lindsey's ideas, btw? Or are you producing specimens for debate?
Also, people who are "sophisticated" interpreters often achieve their sophistication by ignoring a certain amount of common sense, not to mention history. After a certain point, you can wring any meaning you want out of numerology and prophecy. Europe, to take one example, is now rather more than 10 states, if you include the Balkans and Central Europe.
Chuckie, I am sure you and your bride share an opulent trollish pit beneath Minas Morgul. Doubtless you and Shelob have a gay old time torturing prisoners and burning copies of the constitution.
TO: Megan McArdle, et al.
RE: Obama as the Anti-Christ?
Funny think that. Yesterday I was conversing—via e-mail—with members of my county political party, of which I am a co-chair for my precinct, and members of my Friday Morning Mens' Bible Study Group.
Somewhere else in the blogosphere, I'd stumbled upon someone who mentioned the term Obamanation. And it struck me in two ways:
[1] If Obama becomes the President of the United States, does that make the US an Obamanation?
[2] Did Christ predict Obama as the President? After all, in the gospels He mentions the Obamanation that maketh Desolation. Maybe there was some confusion in the translation to English way-back-when.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Dates in prophecy are closer than they appear in your Bible.]
It seems Chuck Pelto is going for the whack-job of the week award. As for the pathetic word-play, Chuckie is obviously not much of a Christian. The poor fool doesn't realize that the Bible was not written in English! How totally pathetic.
If you analyze the name "Chuck Pelto", you realize that he is in fact Satan. "Chuck" = "cast". "Pelt" = "skin". "O" clearly refers to the world after the apocalypse, when nothing remains. What is it that casts its skin? Clearly a snake. How does a snake connect to the apocalypse? Clearly the snake is Satan, the old serpent, who is ultimately responsible for the apocalypse, when, as Rev.12.17 reminds us Satan and his demons wage war against God's kingdom. Satan is now clearly identified as a Republican, which establishes that Obama, as their opponent, must be the Messiah.
....at Obama always brings out the 'best' in his supporters. Especially those whose grasp of English and History, let alone Religion, is tertiary...or worse.
Soon, I'll be accused of being a racist.
But I'm not worried. I've been abused by the best. And these 'orcs' can't hold a candle to the likes of Colonel 'No Slack' Stack.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[If you can't laugh at Life, you are probably going about it wrong.]
Get thee behind me, Satan! I am armed against your Republican wiles. Morzer, we are in your debt for revealing the hideous reality of the beast behind Senor Pelto's disguise as a tedious peddler of random idiocies.
When will the Enquirer publish the pictures? "Satan admits to S&M orgies with orcs. Had gay lover in the military. Don't ask don't tell not for Prince of Darkness."
"That word tertiary you like so much - I do not think it means what you think it means." -- inigomontoya
It's a good thing that he has a spell-checker with his computer. But it's too bad he doesn't have a good dictionary with it as well. Maybe he should get a Mac. The Dashboard has a very good dictionary in it and it says...
Tertiary, adjective, Third in the order or level.
But this is typical of the typical Obama supporter here. Going for the ad hom instead of read discussion. You see the pattern repeated throughout this thread.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.]
P.S. I suspect he'd be the happiest man on the face of the Earth, if he'd just look in the mirror.
This is one of those commentary threads where you can easily separate the lunatics from the sane.
Anyone who takes this "Obama is the Antichrist" stuff seriously- both those who actually believe Obama is the Antichrist, and those who take such people seriously along with seeing this symbolism in the McCain advertisement- is more than a few bricks short of a full load.
And I will point out that people who think Obama is the Antichrist are no more around the bend than those who proclaim Bush/McCain is Hitler-The Sequel.
Even if McCain's ad people wanted to reach out to religious fanatics, they don't need to- those people are voting for McCain already. You would have to be stupid and insane to put such symbolism into an ad to convert the already-converted. McCain's people are neither.
The ad was designed to puncture the high level of self regard you find in Obama and many of his more fervent supporters- and to my surprise, I must admit, the ads hit the mark effectively. A candidate's standing with the public depends not only the candidate's character, but also on the character of his most visible supporters. Obama, for the most part, holds up his end of the campaign, but his supporters, especially those in the media, are damaging him badly with their lack of humor and, now, conspiracy theorizing. One can now expect more ads like this that mock Obama and his supporters- they have shown just how effective they can be.
OT: in light of today's events, one might ask that skidmark on the underpants of society Matt Steinglass whether he would revise his smug views of June 21 in the thread "Speaking Truth to Power":
In today's world, in an era of nation-states, it's impossible to conquer and rule ethnolinguistically alien territory, and the wealth and power of Russia's ruling class are tied to corporate interests that cannot conceivably profit from a war to conquer Poland.
I'm sure that this will come as great comfort to Georgia.
Perhaps the Georgians should stand on the border and say, "Wait! We're ethnolinguistically alien to you! You can't conquer and rule us! A risible leftwing pseudointellectual wanker says so!"
OT: in light of today's events, one might ask that skidmark on the underpants of society Matt Steinglass whether he would revise his smug views of June 21 in the thread "Speaking Truth to Power":
In today's world, in an era of nation-states, it's impossible to conquer and rule ethnolinguistically alien territory, and the wealth and power of Russia's ruling class are tied to corporate interests that cannot conceivably profit from a war to conquer Poland.
I'm sure that this will come as great comfort to Georgia.
Perhaps the Georgians should stand on the border and say, "Wait! We're ethnolinguistically alien to you! You can't conquer and rule us! A risible leftwing pseudointellectual wanker says so!"
Posted by: yazzel: Hmmm... and it never crossed Lindsey's mind that the Books of Daniel and Revelation were written before the US (or Europe!) existed?
Hmmmm...yazzel, are you aware that those are books of prophecy and are interpreted by many Christians to refer to things beyond the author's limited knowledge? Think Nostadamus; isn't he supposed to have written about Hitler and the Kennedy assassination?
Posted by: yazzel: Are you endorsing Lindsey's ideas, btw?
Does it sound to you like I am advocating a pre-tribulation end time position? Whatever could have given you that idea? Were you similarly confused by the New Yorker's Muslim Obama cover? I'll give you a hint, the New Yorker isn't a right wing publication.
Posted by: yazzel: Europe, to take one example, is now rather more than 10 states, if you include the Balkans and Central Europe.
Please follow along. The military alliance is still stuck at 10 countries. If and when it exceeds that number, I am confident that the 10 horns will be redefined into a more specific subset, but the point remains that end times theology is based on the idea that the beast is of European origin. There are many reasons for this and all of the authors I mentioned have written a great deal about why this is so. An assertion or two from you doesn't make it otherwise or change the beliefs of those who support this world view who are looking for a European antichrist.
Posted by: yazzel: Also, people who are "sophisticated" interpreters often achieve their sophistication by ignoring a certain amount of common sense, not to mention history. After a certain point, you can wring any meaning you want out of numerology and prophecy.
You don't say. That is really an eye opening revelation, but isn't this discussion specifically about whether McCain's ad plays into fundamentalist fears that Barack Obama as the Antichrist? I am not claiming that Lindsey et al, are all that sophisticated in their biblical interpretation, just light years more than the placard wearing nutjobs who claim that this president or that president is the Antichrist and more sophisticated than many here are giving them credit for.
Renee, I can't see much difference between one whack-job and another. Perhaps I lack your immersion in these communities of misinterpretation? At any rate, I won't waste time defending their various follies. Where Nostradamus is concerned, those prophecies have been interpreted in so many ways as to be literally meaningless. Revelation and the Letters of John are charming pieces of literary fantasy, from a long tradition of Hellenistic apocalyptic Judaism, but it's hard to think of a top-flight theologian who takes them seriously as a part of the core message of Christianity. Still, if you get something out of them, I wish you well.
I think Satan Pelto needs to work on his ground game. Funny how the rants become less coherent as time goes by. Still, do go on, Chuckie. At the very least, you provide cheap amusement.
Sorry for the multiple posts (I refreshed a couple times, and I guess that resent the original post, which was still in the window).
I'd also like to apologize for the intemperate tone of the post(s). Steinglass irritated me with his pedantic certainty, which has now been shown to be tragically misplaced.
Re the topic of this thread, I'm with Yancey, who posted good sense, as usual.
"One can now expect more ads like this that mock Obama and his supporters- they have shown just how effective they can be." -- Yancey Ward
Indeed. And watching them snap and slobber as a rabid dog is going to be a LOT of fun.
It certainly has provided plenty of entertainment here.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Wit makes its own welcome, and levels all distinctions. No dignity, no learning, no force of character, can make any stand against good wit. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson]
TO: yazzel
RE: Misunderstanding v. Misinterpretation
"....I can't see much difference between one whack-job and another. Perhaps I lack your immersion in these communities of misinterpretation?" -- yazzel
In the one hand, your lack of ability to 'differentiate' between "one whack-job and another" might be a function of hanging with too many of them in the first place.
On the other hand, it might be a function of being poorly educated. After all, a good grasp of information is useful for identification purposes. Or do you just accept whatever sign someone puts on a plant as being 'accurate'? If that were the case, if someone put a sign saying "Arugula" in a patch of Poison Ivy, would you pick a handful and put it in your salad?
On the third hand, maybe you just don't care.
I think my money is on option #3 with regards to your approach.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Education replaces an empty mind with an open one.]
Looking at Chuck Pelto's posts, I suspect we are seeing the meltdown of a limited mind in the throes of paranoid insecurity. Poor fool doesn't have an original thought in over a dozen posts.
"There is an impostor posting in my name. Possibly several. I think there is one left wing impostor and one right wing impostor, and possibly even a third one who is probably insane."
I think the third on might actually be you. One less impostor to worry about. Ain't ceaseless malevolent attention fun?
If you understand the Word as presented in that Old Book, EVERYONE is, in essence 'antiChrist'; 'anti' meaning against and 'Christ' meaning the Biblical Christian Messiah.
How is this possible? Well, because, according to that Old Book, EVERYONE 'sins' and if you sin you're against what Christ preaches, i.e., to stop sinning.
The BIG difference between Christians and the rest of the World is that the Christians supposedly recognize they have a serious problem. And, accordingly, if they are REALLY Christians, are trying to overcome that problem. They do this by asking forgiveness and at least honestly trying to do better.
Whether or not Obama does that in all honesty and supplication is an unknown. After all, we've seen plenty of politicians claim to be one thing when their behavior is something completely different. This is, by definition, hypocrisy. Another thing that Christ was REALLY upset about with some people.
Is Obama anti-Christ? Well....if you look at it from a certain perception, yes. As we all are. But is he THE AntiChrist; an entity alleged to arise in the End Times to be a dominant figure on the Earth before Christ returns and overpowers him?
Who can say? Certainly not many, if any, on this plane of existence. Only time and history will tell. Personally? I doubt it. But one never can tell.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[There is nothing new in the world except the history you do not know. -- Harry S. Truman]
"Tired stuff from you, Chuckie, tired stuff." -- yazzel
As I said (above), you're nature is blatantly obvious.
RE: Local Dems
"I bet your rants have doubled Democratic turnout in your county already." -- yazzel
Actually, in this community, where registered Dems outnumber registered Repubs by 2-to-1, more and Dems are changing the registration to Repub.
I know one guy who's convinced his whole extended family to do so. And in a largely Hispanic community, that's rather extensive.
Why?
Because of Obama. Indeed, one of the wheels in that party showed up at a Repub committee meeting and offered to get a group together for the State Fair Parade float and wave a banner stating....
Democrats for McCain
You can't make this stuff up....
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[There is no more independence in politics than there is in jail. -- Will Rogers]
Yazzel,
No wonder I confused you. If you take a passing reference to Nostradamus as belief in his prophecies and their modern interpretations, I can see how your head must be spinning from my comments. The point is that one misguided fool is not the same as another misguided fool. As I said to begin with, the idea of an American Antichrist is antithetical to the beliefs of the vast majority of those who it is claimed the McCain ad is aimed at. I was asked for to support my claim, which I have done. I have explained the beliefs of a particular group of Christians against those who claimed to know for a fact what they were talking about but obviously don't. I have never claimed to hold those beliefs personally and thought that from my acerbic tone it was obvious that I don't.
Yazzel said: Revelation and the Letters of John are charming pieces of literary fantasy, from a long tradition of Hellenistic apocalyptic Judaism, but it's hard to think of a top-flight theologian who takes them seriously as a part of the core message of Christianity. Still, if you get something out of them, I wish you well.
I don't know what circles you run in, but in mine, we consider him top-flight. Would love to stay and chat, but I am on my way to witness and take part in the Revelation of St. John right now. I hope to meet you there some day. Peace.
"No wonder I confused you. If you take a passing reference to Nostradamus as belief in his prophecies and their modern interpretations, I can see how your head must be spinning from my comments." -- Renee
I think you're being entirely too (1) kind and/or (2) naive. I've seen this sort of comportment in 'discussions' before. And I suspect that our friend yazzel, is doing nothing more, nor anything less than what I've seen all too often in the past....
....throwing dust in the air in order to cloud the matter under discussion.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[If you can't convince them, confuse them. -- some Democrat]
...that all of these 'denizens' of the 'Progressive' persuasion will not participate in the offering to discuss 'prophecy'.
Why?
For the most part, because they are so totally ignorant of anything to do with the religious beliefs of the people they decry. They'll be easy prey for anyone who has made even a cursory pass through that Old Book. Let alone someone who has committed their life to the Truth.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Jesus astonishes and overpowers sensual people. They cannot unite him to history, or reconcile him with themselves. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson]
P.S. But, if you think you have what-it-takes to debate such matters, feel free to join me at....
Obama is not a vegetarian. So he can't be the antichrist. From the BBC - oldish but a classic:
Cardinal: Antichrist is a vegetarian
Vatican-bound: Biffi is tipped as a strong Papal candidate
By David Willey in Rome
A leading conservative candidate to succeed Pope John Paul II has warned that the Antichrist foreseen in the Book of Revelations is already among us.
Cardinal Giacomo Biffi, 71, said that the modern Antichrist, identified in the Book of Revelation as a seven-headed beast, was most likely now disguised as a philanthropist supporting creeds like vegetarianism, animal rights or pacifism, or advocating dialogue with Orthodox or Anglican believers.
But his true aim was to undermine the Catholic church, the Cardinal argued...
Hi Chuck,
Number one is a possibility; two is a definite no; however, I'm leaning towards a third possibility which is that Yazzel's reading skills have some gaps.
Hmmm I do love the sound of wingnut whining in the evening. Oh, and Renee, nice try at the significant theologian issue, but no-one considers Benedict original or significant. Have you ever considered thinking about your positions? As for the attempt to pretend that you aren't a LaHaye girl, well, hardly convincing. Still, nice try. Maybe you can get a pair of McCain flipflops with all the trollpoints you have earned?
The problem with Renee's viewpoint is that Benedict only ever talks about Revelation as essentially historical and symbolic. There's no core Christianity there, just a certain amount of crude triumphalism. Equally, calling Benedict a significant theologian is preposterous. He is a rather crudely conservative, run-of-the-mill Catholic, typical of the favorites of the late John Paul.
It's a shame that we have had to waste so much time on an idiot like Chuck Pelto, but I am glad no-one is going to take him too seriously. I laughed when we discovered his true Satanic identity. I was however just a touch disappointed to find that even the Devil offers such weak arguments and such limited writing.
"Number one is a possibility; two is a definite no; however, I'm leaning towards a third possibility which is that fill in the blank reading skills have some gaps." -- Renee
The third possibility is self-evident. Indeed, it seems to be rampant amongst that lot. Look at the thread and the manifest lack of grasp of the English language. Let alone such concepts as logic. Nor even a basic knowledge of what they are supposedly opposed to. It's all just bombast and bluster and their sophomoric, de rigueur ad homs.
These are the people that Someone warned us about two thousand years ago when He said, "Cast not your pearls before large, domesticated members of the Suidae family," or something like that.
Hence my comment to you about naiveté.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[When you wrestle with a pig, he likes it; you get dirty.]
One of the reasons many Protestants have jumped the shark with the Book of Revelation is because they lost its meaning, which is also why other Protestants (like some here) are so dismissive of its usefulness. The book is central to Catholic theology. Catholics believe that the during the mass we are joining with those in heaven in worship and prayer, the very same eternal worship service that St. John witnessed in the Book of Revelation when he was caught up to heaven. In fact, much of the book serves as a model for the mass. (The rest is the framework for the Catholic worldview that Jesus's parables flesh out.) This is the reason why Catholics have tried to make the interiors of their churches and Cathedrals resemble the description of heaven in the Book of Revelation, when they could, and the practically de rigueur ceiling mural of heaven opening with the angels and saints looking down on the congregation. When we go to mass, we go to heaven, just like St. John did when he saw his vision. When we receive communion, we are taking part in the wedding supper of the lamb as described in Revelation. We bring that little piece of the divine food back with us to this world of tribulation and share it with others when we do good works. That is how the kingdom of heaven is built here on earth, and like Dickens said, it is the best of times (The kingdom of heaven is at hand) and it is the worst of times (it comes out of The Great Tribulation spoken by St. John). That is what my rapture watching friends cannot grasp; the wheat and the tares grow up together, just as described in the Apocalypse.
The way I look at that book of that Old Book, where thinks get 'confusing', is to read it through the eyes of a man from the 1st Century.
How would a man of that time, given a vision of future events, describe them to his contemporaries. I suspect he'd use terms that his contemporaries could understand.
Hence, a strange locust that does not eat grass, looks like a horse arrayed for battle, has locks of hair like women, crowns that shine like gold, the faces of men, wears breastplates like iron and its flight sounds like chariots racing to battle....
....could well be his description of a vision of the AH64 Apache attack helicopter.
• They don't eat grass, they drink JP4
• The ITOW missiles on their wings resemble spears
• The four-blades of the main rotor assembly, when folded back for transport look like four braids of hair
• Plexiglass windshields reflect the dessert Sun VERY well.
• Look in the cockpit and what do you see? Faces of men.
• The kevlar armor on the fuselage comes off like a Roman legionaries armor
And en massé their flight IS like being in the Ben Hur chariot race
[Note: Three guesses as to how I know that last part.]
They’re reported in that book to fly for five months and then a great war breaks out in the Euphrates River valley.
The 82d Airborne Division deployed to Saudi Arabia—in response to Hussein’s invasion of Kuwait—in mid-August 1990. They brought their AH64s with them.
The shooting war broke out in Iraq, where the Euphrates River flows, in mid-January 1991.
Do the math.....
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Coincidence, n., When God works a miracle and doesn’t get the credit.]
Chuck Pelto babbles: "Indeed, it seems to be rampant amongst that lot. Look at the thread and the manifest lack of grasp of the English language. Let alone such concepts as logic. Nor even a basic knowledge of what they are supposedly opposed to. It's all just bombast and bluster and their sophomoric, de rigueur ad homs."
Chucky may think that passage is an example of good writing, but it's really just public masturbation.
WorldNetDaily lists among its columnists the following people: David Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Chuck Norris, Pat Buchanan, Phyllis Schlafly, Jerome Corsi and many others who are by no means shunned by the right.
What, then, to think of the fact it recently published Hal Lindsey's column, "How Obama prepped world for the Antichrist"? Is it acceptable if I, as a liberal, point out that accepted right-wing magazines are expressly stating an Obama/Antichrist connection or is that paranoid?
nitpicker writes: "WorldNetDaily lists among its columnists the following people: David Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Chuck Norris, Pat Buchanan, Phyllis Schlafly, Jerome Corsi and many others who are by no means shunned by the right.
What, then, to think of the fact it recently published Hal Lindsey's column, "How Obama prepped world for the Antichrist"? Is it acceptable if I, as a liberal, point out that accepted right-wing magazines are expressly stating an Obama/Antichrist connection or is that paranoid?"
Nothing paranoid about it - it's a fact. That Beltway neocons like Douthat pretend it isn't happening doesn't change that.
World Nut Daily is always good for a laugh, isn't it?
Re: Contemporary American conservative Christianity is much closer to traditional Christianity than the wishy-washy liberal variants of the religion that have arisen in western nations over the last few decades.
The original poster may have overstated his case, but he has a point: theological ignorance is rife among Evangelicals (and among other Christians too of course) and that includes the leadership. Check out "The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind", written by an Evangelical lamenting the gross ignorance of his fellows. And among (some) Pentacostals, not to mention the LDS and the JWs, one finds revenant heresies that were roundedly condmened by the ancient and medieval Church. Yes, there's the occasional Bishop Spong among the mainliners, though one should not confuse laxness on some discipline issues (like homosexuality or even abortion) with outright heresy.
Meanwhile, Christianity has also deep roots in America's liberal tradition. The forerunners of the Evangelicals, the churches of the Great Awakening, were almost shockingly liberal in their day: most were racially integrated and many allowed women to preach (things which were discontinued when these churches became "respectable"). The Abolitionist movement is unintelligible without an understanding of its Christian passions. And within living memory Christian churches played a prominent role in the Civil Rights movement and the anti-war movement. Yes, this sort of thing has its dangers: the extremism of the Abolitoionists helped bring on the Civil War, and today's pro-Life extremism has saved no children, merely assisted scoundrels, frauds and warmongers into power. The biggest danger, IMO, is the partisanship of today's religious activists: that is fairy unprecedented. The Christian churches should, I think, take a long time out to search their souls and recollect the Kingdom of God is not of this world, that Christians have no call to build worldly utopias--and that in Christ there is neither Democrat nor Republican, liberal nor conservative.
Apparently the people responsible for 'managing' these threads don't really care what people say on them. And the warning (below the posting point) has no meaning whatsoever.
Chuck Pelto complains: "Apparently the people responsible for 'managing' these threads don't really care what people say on them. And the warning (below the posting point) has no meaning whatsoever."
Or maybe they're just well-balanced adults, Chucky, and they realize that your opinion about what qualifies as "obscene" marks you as an unhinged zealot with the sensibility of a Victorian spinster.
Stick with those Zippy-The-Pinhead non sequitur opening sentences.
This time it took a whole FIVE comments before you got pwned! Baby steps, girl, baby steps ... sure, the whacko liberals have totally jumped the shark with their read on things like McCain's "THE ONE" ad, or the veritable plague of Obama-as-Antichrist e-mails: any good German, er, American will simply ignore them (unless they've had the scales lifted from their atavistic little eyes, in which case they BELIEVE EVERY WORD).
Waiting for a lucid justification for supporting a man with known mental-health issues regarding anger, as he seeks a position that puts him in control of a massive nuclear arsenal. And waiting, and waiting, and waiting ...
jim writes: "Waiting for a lucid justification for supporting a man with known mental-health issues regarding anger, as he seeks a position that puts him in control of a massive nuclear arsenal. And waiting, and waiting, and waiting ..."
Let's remember that McCain actually tried to kill himself - twice. Imagine if a Democratic nominee had that sort of psychological baggage. We'd never hear the end of it.
....dating back to Middle English Common Law, it is a violation for any organization—governmental or government recognized—to not uphold and abide by the statutes, codes, ordinances, resolutions and/or regulations that describe it's operations and activities.
Unresolved violates of such matters make said organization anathema.
If Megan is willing to work with The Atlantic, in understanding that The Atlantic does NOT observe its own Rules of Conduct/Engagement, then it falls upon her, as well as upon the ownership, management, and staff of The Atlantic.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out....]
P.S. I'm certain that everyone will read more about this in the future....
How strange then, that it is exactly the liberals with a fundamentalist background who point out this stuff:
http://www.artsjournal.com/quickstudy/2008/08/verily.html
I can't make sense of this. I'm assuming you are being hamfistedly ironic but I really don't have a clue what you are getting at vis "Liberals".
On a completely unrelated note, I find it amusing that once Ross got rid of those pesky commenters it freed him up to be an even bigger scarecrow slaying douche. What a scared, little man.
Do you mean "seething idiot CONtempt"?
If you actually sample those thousands of pages that the Google searches turn up, what you find is this:
1. No liberals are seriously claiming that McCain is the Anti-Christ.
2. Lots of conservatives are claiming that Obama is the Anti-Christ (or his harbinger or is somehow like the Anti-Christ).
3. Lots of conservative 'bible scholars' are debunking the claims by conservatives that Obama is the Anti-Christ (or is his harbinger or whatnot)
4. Lots of EVANGELICAL DEMOCRATS are upset at the ad's imagery. (Are they not authentic Christians because they're Democrats?)
5. Obama as Antichrist is a popular theme of anti-Obama conservative emails.
So this is not the invention of Amy Sullivan's fevered, anti-Semetic-like mind. It's a genuine phenomenon, of murky origins but undoubted existence.
The response by Ross and Megan and others is a bit like the biologist whose refuses to believe that platypuses exist because it is not logical for them to do so.
As someone with personal familiarity with evangelical Christianity, I see this http://www.artsjournal.com/quickstudy/2008/08/verily.html as tapping DIRECTLY into the brain of evangelicals. Perhaps Megan's mainstream Christian background, and a life entirely lived in large metropolises, does not fully comprehend that a good proportion of the evangelical community in suburban/exurban/rural America has such a completely different perspective on life that it as if they live on another planet.
Gosh, what a story! And to think I was taking Ross so seriously before this.
Has anyone descended into wanker-dom faster than Douthat? It took less than a week for total meltdown.
Yeah, boy, those wacky libruls would have to be crazy to think that the republicans would try to label Obama as the Antichrist. Of course, in 2004 the repubs told Arkansans that John Kerry was going to confiscate their Bibles if elected, and they made the Repub convention stage up to look EXACTLY like a pulpit. Boy, those liruls are stupid.
The question is, though: Just how stupid do you have to be to blog for the Atlantic?
btw: I think Douthat is the Antichrist.
Don't you think the Antichrist would be able to reason and write more convincingly than that?
Don't you think the Antichrist would be able to reason and write more convincingly than that?
Actually, I'm the Antichrist, which is why this issue upsets me so much. Credit where credit is due here!
Also, don't make any travel plans involving commerical jet flight on June 6th of... well, I'm not saying what year.
Oh: I also speak for all white people.
And I like lawns.
Effete and out of touch ain't just for liberals anymore!
Effete and out of touch ain't just for liberals anymore!
You and Ross are totally clueless on this. I know it is hard to believe, but many people kiss snakes and speak in tongues without irony. It seems implausible and laughable, but by your standards many southern people are complete whackjobs in their beliefs about god and jesus. they are considered to be normal within their community
My aunt and uncle were rapture rats who spoke in tongues at church, and from about the age of 10 to 12 I believed what they were saying. I have a pretty good understanding of this entire subculture, but admittedly, I wasn't from the south. It must be even that much freakier to be around essentially entire communities who believe in the rapture.
But, back to the ad. This ad is aimed at the end-times crowd, no doubt about it. It isn't a joke if you think the anti-christ will be a real being that will be incarnated within your lifetime. You must view the ad not from your highly-educated urban back ground, but rather from the background of someone who believes with all their heart the anti-christ is real. The ad is comical to me, personally. But I knew lots of people who would look at that ad as deadly serious actionable information.
Every 5 years or so, there is a whole new "Anti-christ" that is pushed out. Gorbechev was the one I remember, because there was some obscure passage about knowing the beast by a mark on his head. This ad is an undoubted attempt to market Obama as being the anti-christ.
Everything one needs to know about Christian eschatology is contained in the lyrics of Iron Maiden.
Dear Alternative Believers,
We at Antichrist Corp. have come up an innovative plan to integrate you into our overall structure. As our senior outreach director, John McCain will be traveling the USA, ensuring that democracy and pole-dancing biker chicks are kept safe. Once Operation Rerepresent is over, phase two, Operation Dismissive will be initiated by Senior Sales Representative McArdle. Rest assured that none of you will miss our August Special, far less our November Surprise. Please, pay no attention to WhoreofBabylon Corp. representatives. Your future is safe in our apocalyptic hands. You have only to surrender your misguided logic function to us, and we promise you a rapturous experience.
yours cordially,
Behemoth Sidney Cheney III Jr.
(VP Sales Antichrist Corp.)
cc: Dobson, J.
LaHaye T.
Douthat R.
I realize that right-wing Catholics like Megan and Ross don't actually know a damn thing about fundamentalists, but they're both being lazy and stupid here.
I've seen the various Cloud Ten "Left Behind" movies as well as the previous series of Apocalypse films they produced - John Hagee is involved in a couple of those, and APPEARS IN THEM - and I've also read the Left Behind novels. If Ross and Megan had any similar familiarity with these materials they might view the "He's THE ONE" video with some actual insight. I have no question that the video uses fonts and imagery that are meant to force this association in people who actually ARE in touch with this area of the culture.
Why does Ross pooh-pooh this? Well, he's a GOP operative who is all-out for John McCain. As for Megan, I have no idea. Maybe she's just playing, uh, Antichrist's advocate. But it's a subject she knows nothing about, and her opinion should be assessed with that in mind.
"A seething, idiotic attempt". That describes the Atlantic blogosphere these days, especially with the departure of Yglesias. The above post barely makes sense, even if you correct for the obvious word substitutions.
The referents of the McCain ad is totally obvious to anyone who has even a passing familiarity with fundie culture.
Crabby Pants says: "Has anyone descended into wanker-dom faster than Douthat?"
I saw it coming when he was bemoaning not being accepted as "one of the gang" by Rush Limbaugh. Then there was his "Barack Hitler Obama" post, which was his declaration of war. Between now and the election he's going to be behaving like the bastard child of Karl Rove and Kathryn Jean Lopez. Only worse.
It's his chance to ingratiate his way into the gang by proving that he can be as nasty and lickspittlish as any of them. Backslaps from Hannity await! Maybe he can do some fill-in spots for Mark Levin!
Excelsior!
If, however, you do "McCain Nicolae Carpathia", you get 2.
Both of which are from a page which specifically calls Obama the antiChrist.
Even for you Megan this was a shoddy post.
As per Ross - I've always thought it was his real self, as apart from racism, my real issue with him was his hypocrisy - I think the trigger was the dismal reception of his book.
James says: "I think the trigger was the dismal reception of his book."
Right now it's #6616 in books, which is a very Antichrist-ian number.
Appropriate Moe - There could have been flashing neon 616 and 666 in that ad and Ross wouldn't have seen anything.
Also - re those google numbers
But if you actually use quotes so its an exact match
"Obama antichrist" gets you - 54,400
"Obama the antichrist" - "76,600"
"McCain antichrist" - 200
"McCain the antichrist" - 906
hmmm.
Here's another one:
"Obama is the Antichrist" - 50,500
"McCain is the Antichrist" - 126
Imagine the GOP toadies at NRO using Google in a deceptive manner! What a shock!
Next thing you know they'll be citing Steve Sailer or something.
Hmm.. anyone checked how many hits McArdle and antichrist gets you?
Apparently, mcardle + antichrist yields 9,130. But what does it all mean?
Having been raised in a Pentecostal Church (Church of God) in the South, with Baptists on the paternal side, I can assure you, Megan, and you, Ross, that the ad's portrayal of Obama speaks directly to the consciousness of at least some of those who believe in the Anti-Christ and the Rapture.
Megan, it is you and Ross who are failing to apprehend at least one of the meanings of the ad, assuring its makers that they have succeeded in making the message--which would seem ridiculous to the majority of Americans--deniable, and those who articulate it that meaning, ridiculous and even paranoid.
Since when was whackjob discussion and use of the Anti-christ "traditional Christianity"? Modern-day evangelical cargo cult Christianity, yes. Backwoods heretical Christianity, sure. But traditional Christianity? Do you mean Catholic? Orthodox? Anglican? What is "traditional Christianity"?
I think Ross and Megan just don't have much experience with southern stylke fudnamentalism.
And I second the above commenterswho not that turnign off comments has unleashed the real Ross, he is just the Corner light, basically Goldberg or Lopez but a little better ability to talk to liberals.
"near-total ignorance of traditional Christianity with a seething, idiotic attempt"
Attempt at what? You mean contempt? Or did you forget the last half of that sentence?
At any rate, it might be unfair to slam the "near-total ignorance of traditional Christianity" that secular liberals have without mentioning modern Christians "near-total ignorance" of their own religion. Yes, I know that Tim Lahaye and others are interested in pushing this comic book version of the Antichrist. But I don't think that's the "traditional" view....
I was raised in a Reform Jewish Synagogue in the suburbs of Chicago, and the subtext was obvious to me. To not see it requires willful blindness and intellectual dishonesty, but then, I guess that is a job requirement to be a conservative pundit.
Let it also be noted that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion was not a "misinterpretation", but a deliberate forgery, aimed at damaging Jews through a distorted and knowingly dishonest attack on Judaic history and religion. Those interested in history might note that it was a forgery by extreme conservatives, and embraced by extreme conservatives globally. Also, when a version was published in 1905, it was the 12th and final chapter in a book predicting, yes, the coming of the anti-Christ! These are fairly well-known facts, and easily accessible.
I suggest Megan thinks through what she has posted and makes some substantial revisions - for accuracy, if nothing else.
I just got 776,000 hits for "obama antichrist"
Why did glen beck say he gets lots of email on the "obama is the anti-christ" topic back on March 5th, 2008?
March is a long time ago already...
Look. I knew the AntiChrist. The AntiChrist was a friend of mine.
Senator Obama. You're no AntiChrist.
It was a good ad. Obama is an effete, hard-left gas-bag and the ad was a good way to puncture his celebrity balloon.
If some rapture-types read into it something from the Left Behind series ... so what. Get a life.
Jim, you wouldn't know an effete hard-left gasbag is it rammed a tire-gauge up your ass. As for celebrity balloons, why don't we discuss the unfaithful, dishonest, financially corrupt old fraud who is the current nominee of your corrupt party of Abramoffs, Vitters, Craigs, Stevenses, Cheneys and Bushes?
What's the big tsimmis? Obama is the anti-Christ. Geez.
Attemptible!
C'mon BarackObots.
If you're really so convinced, you should be denouncing McCain for comparing Brittney Spears and Paris Hilton to the Anti-Christ. =)
What's the big tsimmis? Obama is the anti-Christ. Geez.
Jenkins/LaHaye looney-tunes is about as far from "traditional Christianity" as you're likely to get -- both in terms of the actual teachings of the Bible and the "Onward Christian Soldiers" theology that is actually "traditional" Christianity as practiced in the United States. This is also to say nothing of the fact that the R.C. Church--founded by one J.H. Christ and Simon Called Peter--doesn't entirely approve of the end-of-days nuts trying to immatize the eschaton. This is probably why Hagee calls it bad names.
Christianity existed in America for about 300 years without turning fascist -- these red state weirdos may be many things but they are much more ignorant of traditional Christianity than any mainstream Democrat.
Everyone in this forum who takes this "Anti-Christ" stuff seriously is desperate. Republicans don't win elections because Americans are credulous dupes who vote against liberals because of fear-mongering tactics appealing to their prejudices. Republicans win elections because Democrats want to take away their money and their freedoms. Is that simple and clear enough for everyone?
It's Democrats who play on the fears of an ignorant electorate. Fear of the planet somehow imploding. Fear of being denied health care. Fear that someone out there has more material wealth than they do. Fear that someone might try to take the schools out from under the thumb of the teachers' unions. Fear that individuals might deter the attacks of criminals by using their own weapons. Fear that someone who's not black might use the "n" word. Fear that the government might not be there to bail them out every time they make a stupid decision.
So look in the mirror, Democrats. You won't see the anti-christ Karl Rove looking back at you, but just another irrational, deluded liberal.
Time Magazine is the anti-Christ.
It is the old bait and switch. Put Obama on the cover with a halo for misdirection. And misdirection is all the anti-Christ has.
As for celebrity balloons, why don't we discuss the unfaithful, dishonest, financially corrupt old fraud
Jeeze, for a minute there I thought you were talking about John Edwards.
Wow - talk about missing the point. Without getting into deeper discussion or endorsement of Christian theology: the Anti-Christ is not a force that can be opposed. He comes, launches a reign of terror, and is ultimately schwacked by the returned Jesus. Those who oppose this are opposing the infallibility of the Bible/prophecy. The idea of "stopping" the Anti-Christ is a modern Hollywood fiction, not a tenet of Christian theology.
Thus the diabolical genius of the McCain ad is what, exactly? And appeals to who, exactly? And is intended to get them to do what, exactly? The only answer I know for certain is to question two - "not Christians." Hence "near-total ignorance of traditional Christianity with a seething, idiotic attempt."
"Liberals" should be replaced by "non-Christians" (or even "anti-Christians") at the outset of this post, rest same.
FWIW, I was raised a Christian and picked up a lot of end-times imagery in my 12 years of private Baptist schooling. If there's any Antichrist subtext in the McCain ad then it was done very poorly, because I missed it completely.
It's just an effective jab at the messianic imagery that Obama's own campaign has specialized in.
Megan's right. This millenial interpretation is on par with reading about a Roman Catholic communion service and concluding that they're cannibals.
CFB writes: "Everyone in this forum who takes this "Anti-Christ" stuff seriously is desperate. Republicans don't win elections because Americans are credulous dupes who vote against liberals because of fear-mongering tactics appealing to their prejudices. Republicans win elections because Democrats want to take away their money and their freedoms. Is that simple and clear enough for everyone?"
In 2004 Repiglicans ran on fear of Muslims and fear of homosexuals. Is that simple and clear enough for you?
Your effete, draft-dodging, cheerleader, dry-drunk fake cowboy president has thrown out habeas corpus and instituted wholesale wiretapping. Women are being forced to drink their own breast milk and rip out piercings with pliers in order to get on frigging airplanes. We're fighting two pointless wars and he ran each of them incompetently. Osama bin Laden is still alive and we're the World Capital of Torture.
You're a member of the scumbag's party and the only question is: Are you evil, stupid, insane, or some combination of the three?
In any event, the GOP is going to get whipped halfway to extinction in November and I hope you cry yourself to sleep on Election Night. Your senile standard-bearer is hopeless and he'll drag down a couple of dozen in Congress and the Senate as well. You can only scare people for so long when you're incompetent at everything else.
Good grief. I grew up in Oklahoma, home of Billy Joe Hargis and Oral Roberts. I've been exposed to fundamentalists... and I didn't think that ad was trying to suggest that Obama is the Antichrist; rather that he's a self-appointed Messiah. The Democrats are having to reach really far if this is the best they can dredge up.
The language mimics that of the KJV, which sounds pompous to modern ears. The type face looks very much like Trajan, a lovely face, but vastly overused today for movie titles and credits; I would bet it was chosen for those connotations rather than for similarity to the Left Behind series.
The parting of the Red Sea clip appears right after Obama going on about how his election will be the moment "the rise in the oceans began to slow." Singling out the first beast of Daniel's dream having eagle's wings to try to tie it to the eagle of Obama's hubristic pseudo-presidential seal is about at the level of arguing that they both breathe. (BTW, the lion with eagle's wings gets plucked--I don't see that in "The One," do you?)
M Simon,
You did notice that Edwards finished a distant 3rd in the Dem primary and McCain is the Rep nominee?
The whole celeb attack is particularly funny coming from McCain. Which Senator has hosted SNL twice? Made cameos in sseveral movies and TV shows? Who has the most appearances of any guest on The Daily Show for God's sake? Hint it ain't Obama.
Which candidate has 11(?) houses, takes private jets whereever he goes and wears $500 shoes? Again who is the elitist?
There seems to be a lot of projection on McCains' part in these attacks:-)
And to head of the wing nuts who will start debating whether the charge that McCain is an elitist matters. I agree it doesn't matter. I could care less about that nonesense. But I'm not the one attacking Obama as an elitst celebrity either, McCain is. If McCain wants to base his attack on this nonesense then lets call a spade a spade and apply his own standards to him as well.
Moe: "We're fighting two pointless wars"
So you disagree with Obama, Moe?
David B,
Jenkins/LaHaye looney-tunes is about as far from "traditional Christianity" as you're likely to get -- both in terms of the actual teachings of the Bible and the "Onward Christian Soldiers" theology that is actually "traditional" Christianity as practiced in the United States.
Huh? Contemporary American conservative Christianity is much closer to traditional Christianity than the wishy-washy liberal variants of the religion that have arisen in western nations over the last few decades. Traditional Christianity is full of harsh and uncompromising rules governing people's lives that modern American Christians no longer observe. In fact, outside the United States and other western nations, traditional Christian morals and values and behaviors are much more common. A good illustration is the approaching schism in the Anglican Communion over homosexuality and other issues. Most Anglicans no longer live in England or America. They live in Africa and Asia. And that African and Asian majority is much more conservative and traditionalist than western Anglicans.
Christianity existed in America for about 300 years without turning fascist
Good grief. Do you know anything about how gays, Jews, atheists, adulterers, fornicators, etc. were treated by Christians in America in the 18th and 19th centuries? They were horribly oppressed. Southern Christians not only kept slaves, but defended slavery as the Will of God. Women were essentially treated as the property of their husbands or fathers, and the idea that women should be treated as the social and political equals of men would have been considered heresy by the vast majority of American Christians during most of American history.
As much as you obviously despise the modern "religious right" in America, it's practically a model of enlightened humanism in comparison to American Christianity of the past.
TO: mickslam
RE: Talk About Projection
"You and Ross are totally clueless on this." -- mickslam
Your words speak volumes.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Sauce for the gander not going down so well. It's apparently Ok for "The One", to wax poetic about his role in reversing the evil tide (literally), of global warming, but it's not Ok to mock him for it. Obama needs to run a campaign ad where he says, "I'm not a major deity, I just play one on TV". With this disclaimer in place, he can then go on to "pontificate", about curing all humanity's ills without concern he's giving McCain the ammo he needs to poke fun. Don't count on it.
Oh, and compared to Obama's tax policy, I'll take the Anti-Christ. "Better to rule in Hell, than to serve in Heaven", that's my new motto.
Klug quotes and writes: ""We're fighting two pointless wars"
So you disagree with Obama, Moe?"
On a number of things, yes, and this is one of them. There is very little point in continuing to pretend that there's a real "mission" in Afghanistan or that we're going to build some sort of democracy there. It isn't working. The countryside is dominated by the Taliban and the warlords and our eventual "these people are crazy" withdrawal is inevitable.
The only tenable reason for staying there at all is to use it as a base to attack al Qaeda in Pakistan, but let's face it, the likelihood of that working out is receding by the day.
TO: All
RE: Obviously...
...a LOT of the people posting comments such as...
"Do you know anything about how gays, Jews, atheists, adulterers, fornicators, etc. were treated by Christians in America in the 18th and 19th centuries? They were horribly oppressed." -- Mixner
....haven't a clue-one about Christianity. All they know is all they know and they don't know a LOT. Hence the d/mis-information. But they don't seem to really care about that. Just like they don't care much for learning the truth of any matter that they've already set their minds too.
I blame the vaunted American public education system for teaching children WHAT to think instead of teaching them HOW to think.
Such is the 'Progressive' agenda.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Progressive is a one-word oxymoron.]
TO: All
RE: Speaking of Obama
If Obama becomes President of the United States, does that make the United States an Obamanation?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. Did Christ predict Obama as President?
"When you see the Obamanation that maketh desolation...."
Perhaps there was a mistranslation somewhere along the line.....
If it turns out that Obama doesn't earn the customary support of that crucial Democratic base -- hardcore Christian fundamentalists -- then we'll know this ad has done its vile work all too ably.
TO: All
RE: Speaking of Obama
If Obama becomes President of the United States, does that make the United States an Obamanation?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. Did Christ predict Obama as President?
"When you see the Obamanation that maketh desolation...."
Perhaps there was a mistranslation somewhere along the line.....
TO: All
RE: Speaking of Obama
If Obama becomes President of the United States, does that make the United States an Obamanation?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. Did Christ predict Obama as President?
"When you see the Obamanation that maketh desolation...."
Perhaps there was a mistranslation somewhere along the line.....
Jeremy Brown writes: "If it turns out that Obama doesn't earn the customary support of that crucial Democratic base -- hardcore Christian fundamentalists -- then we'll know this ad has done its vile work all too ably."
That's an impotent and ignorant analysis, Jeremy. McCain doesn't just want to take votes away from Obama. He also needs to maintain as much of the Bush-slurping base as possible. The fundies LOVE their Dumbya, and they're not totally on board with McCain. This ad is a hint to that group that McCain shares their twisted fantasy lives.
Got that?
TO: All
RE: Speaking of Obama
If Obama becomes President of the United States, does that make the United States an Obamanation?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. Did Christ predict Obama as President?
"When you see the Obamanation that maketh desolation...."
Perhaps there was a mistranslation somewhere along the line.....
RE: Hey, hundreds of thousands of hits for Obama as 'antichrist........? that's 'nutin....google antichrist Bush and you get 1.19 million hits...where does that leave Amy?
TO: All
RE: [OT] Is...
...this system FUBAR or what?
I didn't intend to post that item so many times, but for some STUPID reason this system decided it was 'justified'.
Go fig....
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[To REALLY foul things up, you need a computer.]
P.S. Preferably a Window-based platform.
Chuck Pelto,
....haven't a clue-one about Christianity.
Really? So you're seriously claiming, are you, that American Christianity in the 18th and 19th centuries did not oppress gays, Jews, atheists, adulterers, etc.? You seriously need to acquaint yourself with American history.
And believe me, I know something about impotence.
TO: All
RE: [OT] Is...
...this system FUBAR or what?
I didn't intend to post that item so many times, but for some STUPID reason this system decided it was 'justified'.
Go fig....
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[To REALLY foul things up, you need a computer.]
P.S. Preferably a Window-based platform.
TO: All
RE: Typcial 'Progressive' Misunderstanding
"Really? So you're seriously claiming, are you, that American Christianity in the 18th and 19th centuries did not oppress gays, Jews, atheists, adulterers, etc.? You seriously need to acquaint yourself with American history." -- Mixner
Most people with either a junior high school education AND a desire to be honest would know better than to try this foil.
However, your typical 'Progressive' will deliberately misunderstand things.
'nuff said.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Progressive is a one-word oxymoron.]
An impostor posts: "And believe me, I know something about impotence."
Just from Bob Dole's boner pill ads. And after McCain gets his nuts kicked in on Election Day he can take over that franchise.
There's a reason Cindy looks pissed off all the time.
User talk:MoeLarryAndJesus
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
re your email
Sorry ML&J, but I can see at least four other admins who have looked this over or handled a request from you to be unblocked under this name, and I can't just unblock you. The block wasn't for your username (personally, I think it's fine), it was for your deliberate and knowing trolling.
However, I can reduce your indefinite block, which I have done so; it will expire in 48 hours, at which point you can request a change of name. Please let me know via email if you have any trouble in the meantime, but don't ask me to reduce it further. No more trolling, though, please?
I also would ask that the first thing you do in two day's time is to request the name change, and to refrain from making any other edits to anywhere other than this talk page, til the name change is done. Is that reasonable? Neil (not Proto ►) 11:26, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Remember all the anti-Semitic behavior that The Passion was supposed to foment? And remember how none of that happened?
I swear it's the same people, now, worrying that McCain is appealing to apocalypticists, and swearing that they recognize the marks of this particular brand of demagoguery.
"I swear, based on my affiliation with fundamentalists at some time or another, that this is what they're doing."
Great. Now folks are touting credentials that qualify them to understand putative idiots. Brilliant.
And in any case, as we have already discussed, the lingerie is strictly a comfort issue.
rasqual says: "Great. Now folks are touting credentials that qualify them to understand putative idiots. Brilliant."
I've been observing the Bush administration in action for over 7 1/2 years. That certainly leads to an understanding of stupidity.
Seven Machos, Wikipedia is a Reich Wing cult. It has a well-known conservative bias. My repeated vandalism there was simply an example of what we on the left call "speaking truth to power".
Oh, good grief. Out of curiosity, I had to look at this ad. (don't live in the US, non-Christian, non-Republican). It's clear now why the ad got so many knickers in a twist: It's a strongly-done parody, and "the faithful" (some commenting here) are the target.
Bryan C. was exactly right: "It's just an effective jab at the messianic imagery that Obama's own campaign has specialized in.
Megan's right. This millenial interpretation is on par with reading about a Roman Catholic communion service and concluding that they're cannibals."
TO: SJE
RE: How Familiar R U?
"As someone with personal familiarity with evangelical Christianity...." -- SJE
Were you 'born again'? Yes or No?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. No answer is to reply in the affirmative, according to English Common Law.
Great, the amateur imposters are back in force now. Keep it up, chuckles.
Classic. Linking to the National Review in support of your lame straw man about "liberals."
Ann Althouse could do no better.
6:35 is an impostor (notice that I have always spelled it with an o). This happened yesterday too, its just some troll who wants attention. Don't give it to him. We on the left are above such petty games.
I'm a Catholic who knows very little of fundamentalist culture (except that it scares me a little bit). I'm perfectly willing to accept that the commenters here are right, but that doesn't really undermine McCain as much as you all think.
This seems more like an instance of turnabout is fair play. Obama clearly peddles himself as the Messiah and McCain's ad is intended to ridicule Obama for his outrageous ego. Since Obama took the campaign down that road, what's wrong with McCain playing Obama's game and saying, yes, Obama is a supreme being, just not that one.
Those interested in history might note that it was a forgery by extreme conservatives,
It was a forgery by the Tsar's secret police. What exactly about them made them "conservatives"? Were they in favor of less government regulation? Low taxes? An originalist interpretation of the Constitution?
TO: MoeLarryWhatever....
RE: Say What?
"Great, the amateur imposters are back in force now. Keep it up, chuckles." -- MoeLarryWhatever
Imposter of what? Amateur? In what capacity?
I suspect you're projecting in a grand fashion.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Chuck, the impostor wrote that, not me. If you stick around long enough you will learn to tell the difference between the trolls and myself. It's pretty clear, actually. Isn't it?
Has the Atlantic considered hiring an actual right-wing blogger to serve as a bug light for all these gadflies so that thoughtful bloggers like Megan and Ross can have functional comment sections?
As for Megan's ignorance of Left Behind et. al. symbology, McCain and gang are likely to be at least as ignorant as she. Unwilling to come to terms as a party (Obama actually does seem willing, but few join him there) with their own weaknesses, Dems and apologists unsurprisingly are more interested in finding an out group against which they can rally the troops. There are few more out than the Left Behind crew.
To elaborate on my 6:49 post, the real me never uses ad hominem attacks, certainly not ones as mindlessly petulent as Bushpig. That one sounds like it came from one of the drueling sub-humans that posts at the Daily Kos.
David Warner says: "Has the Atlantic considered hiring an actual right-wing blogger to serve as a bug light for all these gadflies so that thoughtful bloggers like Megan and Ross can have functional comment sections?"
Ross has taken those final two steps to the right and he is now "an actual right-wing blogger." One more step and he'll be Michael Savage. By Election Day he may be even worse than Savage.
Re: 6:55 impostor
I would never spell "drooling" or "petulant" wrong. I use ad hominem attacks on deserving targets. And Daily Kos isn't infested by subhumans, but Little Green Shitballs and freerepublic.com are.
And it should be obvious to you all that 6:56 WAS the real me.
Sauce for the gander not going down so well. It's apparently Ok for "The One", to wax poetic about his role in reversing the evil tide (literally), of global warming, but it's not Ok to mock him for it. Obama needs to run a campaign ad where he says, "I'm not a major deity, I just play one on TV". With this disclaimer in place, he can then go on to "pontificate", about curing all humanity's ills without concern he's giving McCain the ammo he needs to poke fun. Don't count on it.
Oh, and compared to Obama's tax policy, I'll take the Anti-Christ. "Better to rule in Hell, than to serve in Heaven", that's my new motto.
Unfortunately, I must admit that the impostor is a bit more diligent about his spelling than I am.
No, Obama isn't Nicholae Carpathia. He's just one of the 4 beasts.
Jeez, lefties, lighten up. No, all the conservatives don't believe that Barry is evil incarnate. We just don't want a socialist society and you do.
An impostor posts: "That one sounds like it came from one of the drueling sub-humans that posts at the Daily Kos."
Only an idiot or a lying hack would fail to realize Kos's importance to the Progressive movement. When everyone else was expressing sympathy or keeping quiet about the dismemberment of a bunch of Bushpig military contractors, Kos had the courage to say "screw them."
Yes, how dare liberals actually take Christianity and its symbols seriously.
Doing so is... an insult to Christians, apparently.
So, McCain is convincing nutty evangelicals who believe Obama is the Anti-Christ to not vote for Obama?
I'm guessing those predisposed to such a view (Obama=Antichrist) would already be affected by fellow-travelers and not "subtle hints" in McCain ads.
And, remember, these nuts aren't just Republicans (Google "Fred Phelps").
Finally, Megan please edit this sentence, my head hurts: "Liberals wonder why they are parodied as out-of-touch secularists who mix near-total ignorance of traditional Christianity with a seething, idiotic attempt."
David Nieporent, have you considered learning some history? You really need to have laid out for you what made the Okhrana extreme conservatives? You don't think reactionary monarchism, a hatred of democracy and virulent anti-Semitism qualifies? God above, man, can you read? Do you ever engage in conscious rational thought?
Pam, don't be a fuckwit. No-one is advocating Socialism. We just don't like the corrupt Bush-fascism for which you rightwing traitors have sold our country.
Hmmmmm
1. Having Christians and Christianity described by liberal secularists, who "lived" among them, is frankly hilarious.
Really. Stop it. I'm laughing hard enough to cough up a lung.
It's almost as funny as when liberals try to quote Scripture.
2. Google searches are somehow evidence?
"donut antichrist" = 42,000 hits
"handjob antichrist" = 17,000 hits
"the atlantic antichrist" = 47,900 hits
"megan mcardle antichrist" = 6,810 hits
I suggest it's proof of nothing more than google searches are not evidence of anything more than people have way too much free time on their hands.
3. One reason why some devout people are freaking out over Obama is simply how clear it is that he is utterly unprepared for the job of President. And how utterly captivated Obamamaniacs are. I've tried to debate a few and it's a total waste of time. No fact, no argument and no explanation is sufficient for some. Why do they support Obama? Because they do.
And that creeps out a lot of my more devout Christian friends.
How do you get a blowjob from a Republican? Simple, drop a dime and wait.
How do you make a Republican beg? Put your foot on the dime.
zilifant, why do you hurt me like this? What have I ever done to you?
Obviously, the idiot impersonating me doesn't realize how profoundly I despise people who steal names. Pseudo_Godwin, begone, vile troll-spawn!
Zilifant, don't let Mike Godwin (whoever that is) stop you from making your point. Good-hearted people need to scream NAZI NAZI NAZI as loud as they can, as often as they can, until this Residency is put on trial for war crimes.
It's the only way we can protect innocents like Khaled Sheikh Mohammed from more torturous torture by these Fascists.
I was just taking it for a spin.
Good-hearted people need to scream NAZI NAZI NAZI as loud as they can, as often as they can, until this Residency is put on trial for war crimes.
Posted by MoeLarryAndJesus | August 9, 2008 7:28 PM
Hmm, I am all for arresting, trying, neutering and executing war criminals like Bush, but I don't think the White House deserves to suffer. And I am pretty sure that KSM is another of Cheney's little schemes gone wrong.
Chuck- Nice! Grade school taunts work pretty well in professional settings - you'll go far. I am clueless! Ouch! Tell that to my patent attorney - he agrees!
I think Megan did study at the U of C business school, so she does know what market segmentation means. She gets the idea now, even if y'all don't. It isn't aimed at anyone writing in this post.
Note, there is no almost zero for McCain with this ad. It isn't designed to change anyones mind, or sway an independent voter. It is designed as a mass GOTV tool, to get more of a targeted group of evangelicals to vote. Others beyond this group dismiss the ad, make fun of it and think it is silly. However, for the believers, it might spur them to vote. If they want to be raptured, they have to oppose the anti-christ, here on earth. It is probably worth a few 10s of thousands of extra votes, with no chance of losing votes. In rural Florida, a few thousand extra votes is a big deal. All in all, an effective ad. The controversy only helps it.
All this from the same crowd that sees a hidden racist message in McCain's comparing Obama's celebrity status to Brittany Spears and Paris Hilton? Sorry. Such a claim is patently silly and hardly worth the effort in typing this response.
The ad is in no way trying to call Obama the anti-christ. What it IS doing is point out Obama's very creepy habit of referring to himself in quasi-messianic terms, and encouraging a cult following to go even further. Why is religious imagery used? Because that's the imagery Obama and his groupies use themselves. If there's something unsettling about the ad, it should be the words Obama himself uses. When you and your followers try to paint you as a messianic figure, then you deserve to have that portrayal mocked. Trying to find some sinister, coded message just reveals you to be the kooks that you are.
TO: mickslam
RE: Clueless R U
"Nice! Grade school taunts work pretty well in professional settings - you'll go far. I am clueless! Ouch! Tell that to my patent attorney - he agrees!" -- mickslam
You're either forgetting what you said or your REALLY clueless. Indeed, the two are probably one-in-the-same for you.
After all. You were the one who used the term first.
"You and Ross are totally clueless on this." --
Posted by mickslam | August 9, 2008 2:09 PM
Hope that helps....but I have serious doubts....
Regards,
Chuck(le)
How scary you are,Stephen. For a moment I almost forgot my concerns about running an adulterous, corrupt, Bush-kissing old fraud for the Republican candidate. How careless of me. By the way, do you approve of John McCain betraying a crippled first wife to chase a younger woman? And how about the Keating Five? Just the sort of honorable man we need, eh?
There's a rather important fact all the rapture experts around here seem to have overlooked. The percentage of knuckle-dragging, snake-wielding, tongue-talking, cousin-marrying, rapture-believing slavery sympathizers who think the Anti-Christ will be an American president is in the single digits. That's because the vast majority of them, for all their faults, are extremely patriotic and believe that American Exceptionalism is solely due to God's providence. In that vein, they believe/hope that America is the place of refuge that the persecuted flee to "on wings of eagles." While I haven't read any of the Left Behind books, I am at least knowledgeable enough about various rapture theories from studying them fifteen years ago to know that Tim LaHaye would never make Nicolae Carpathia an American and Wikipedia has confirmed that he is Romanian. That's because the most popular view is that he will be a European, which is also why Rapture Watchers are extremely leery of the E.U. What they see in Obama is an extremely charismatic, messianic candidate who has charmed the press with his progressive agenda and citizen-of-the-world rhetoric. That's got them all a twitter not because they think Obama is the Anti-Christ, but for the same reason that just about every piece of global news gets their hearts racing; they think it's all paving the way for "the man of sin," and they are getting a glimpse of how the world will fall under his spell.
Chuck, have you thought of learning English? You seem a little off the pace. I'd hate to see you sent back to your native land by the evil old GOP.
So libs and the media (but I repeat myself) think that Obama is divine and conservative Christians think that he is demonic. Either way, he clearly doesn't have anything useful to say on policy.
Well, Holdfast, after that searingly insightful piece of analysis, what can we say? How brilliantly you laid out your case! Did this concern stop you from voting for the Chimp-in-Chief? Hmmmm?
I know it's been said, but let me please just reiterate that the concept of the Rapture is recent (the last century or so), and is not a part of traditional Christianity. It is a specific interpretation by a small number of evangelicals (it's hard to know how many, but probably not a majority).
In addition, it's entirely likely that even most evangelicals who do subscribe to this eschatology would find claims that Obama is the antichrist to be ridiculous. Anyone can say anything on a website, but I can't imagine that more than a handful of people would actually take this sort of thing seriously. I know a lot of evangelicals on that theological bandwagon. You might think their beliefs are strange, but that doesn't mean they will believe anything.
There are more Dems out there who think Bush personally issued the order for 9/11 than evangelicals who would take seriously the claim that Obama is the antichrist. Neither group is large enough to worry about.
Bushpig sympathizers like Stephen may think they can fool the rest of us, but they can't.
These ads are clearly comparing Obama to the Antichrist. I know this because of the deep insight I formed into the Religious Right when I watched a couple of the Left Behind movies. Plus my Gender Studies professor agrees with me.
In conclusion, Bushpig Fascist wingnut Repiglican.
Thank you.
memomachine (how appropriate) writes: "One reason why some devout people are freaking out over Obama is simply how clear it is that he is utterly unprepared for the job of President."
Since those people were gaga-in-love with Dumbya it's obvious that their judgment is worthless.
(*) The obscurity here does not refer to the fact that most people don't know the relevant biblical passages, but to the fact that liberals are scouring the advertisements for subliminal blips.
TO: All
RE: jasmine & Ignorance
"Chuck, have you thought of learning English? You seem a little off the pace. I'd hate to see you sent back to your native land by the evil old GOP." -- jasmine
For those interested...
...I'm co-chair of my precinct for the county Republican party.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
David Nieporent writes: "Treating Christians as reactionary bigots who respond Pavlovianly to obscure symbols (*) and take their marching orders from preachers who link random events to mainstream politicians is an insult to Christians. The tone of this commentary is "Ha, ha, Obama is the antichrist - only a nutjob would think that, and look at all these nutjobs who obviously believe that!""
Only a nutjob would think that, and plenty of examples of nutjobs who do indeed think that are available.
And the so-called non-Pavlovian nature of many fundamentalist Christians isn't exactly disproven when they all fall over themselves screeching about things like the Piss Christ, or when a dipshit like Bill O'Reilly whines about a "War On Christmas" and gets so much support from the, uh, non-Pavlovians.
I'm co-chair of my precinct for the county Republican party.
Posted by Chuck Pelto | August 9, 2008 7:57 PM
Chalk up another win for Obama!
Here it comes people. Here comes the formulation for the post hoc argument for why Obama will lose.
McGovern? Eagleton. Carter in 1980? A secret deal with Iran. Dukakis? The tank picture and Willie Horton. Gore? Internet invention. Kerry. Swiftboating.
Obama? Ads that secretly appeal to religious zealots.
As we all know, no conservative or Republican can win any election without trickery and lies.
I'm co-chair of my precinct for the county Republican party.
Posted by Chuck Pelto | August 9, 2008 7:57 PM
Those Republicans - they'll take anything with tentacles!
But why do you think that the people who watch Bill O'Reilly are somehow the same people who allegedly recognize and respond to the allusions to the antichrist in these Obama ads?
But why do you think that the people who watch Bill O'Reilly are somehow the same people who allegedly recognize and respond to the allusions to the antichrist in these Obama ads?
Posted by David Nieporent | August 9, 2008 8:13 PM
Because ignorance is bliss - or rapture? After all, intelligent people don't listen to the whinings of a drugged-up, bulbous pervert like Limbaugh. But then, intelligent people don't try and defend the monkey cage of fundamentalist religion.
Only a Repiglican would be upset about public funding for desecration of their religious symbols. What reactionaries. How unsophisticated. I urinate on pictures of my mother and my sister all the time and they don't get offended.
Moe, you are behind the times. Nowadays you have to actually sleep with mom and sis to be a Republican in good standing. The good old days of toilet play espoused by Barbara Bush have long since passed.
Of course, I do other things with Mom and Sis that I probably shouldn't describe here.
That last comment was not by me, Puck. There is an impostor posting in my name. Possibly several. I think there is one left wing impostor and one right wing impostor, and possibly even a third one who is probably insane.
I waded through most of the comments and it seems that only one or two other people have pointed this out: Megan, your post makes no sense. Nutjobs are claiming that Obama is the antichrist, and liberals are pointing this out. How in the world does that translate into liberals being "out-of-touch secularists who mix near-total ignorance of traditional Christianity with a seething, idiotic attempt"?
It seems the fundie trolls have gone back to Mordor for the night. Wonderful what wit and reason can do against such shambling creatures.
I waded through most of the comments
I call BS on this. Half of the comments are insane people impersonating me, including people who impersonate me to (correctly) describe how stupid the other imposters are. You can't seriously claim to have read all of that drivel.
Moe, I do miss watching you provoke the enraged Douthat into revealing his true colors. How easily you tormented the poor seething brute!
morzer writes: "It seems the fundie trolls have gone back to Mordor for the night. Wonderful what wit and reason can do against such shambling creatures."
Yes, we on the left are known for our penetrating wit and our deep commitment to reason. The Bushpig Fascist hatemonkeys could never match our clever cleverness.
8:34 is an impostor, by the way. Though I have to agree with what he wrote.
Moe: I completely disagree with your opinions, but the person(s) who post(s) in your name is(are) a total asshole(s).
And, oh yeah, your chosen handle is very offensive. I love Jesus and the Fine brothers, but don't mix 'em up.
Tom on the rez.
Moe: I completely disagree with your opinions, but the person(s) who post(s) in your name is(are) a total asshole(s).
And, oh yeah, your chosen handle is very offensive. I love Jesus and the Fine brothers, but don't mix 'em up.
Tom on the rez.
yazzel writes: "Moe, I do miss watching you provoke the enraged Douthat into revealing his true colors. How easily you tormented the poor seething brute!"
Yes, well, all in a day's work. Yazzel, I'm a little bit tired of these idiot trolls constantly impersonating me. Yes, it's a tribute, but it is also a distraction from my more pressing work of mindlessly repeating things like "Bushpig" and "Repiglican" ad nauseum. Saying those clever insults over and over makes feel good about myself, and also makes me feel funny in my pants, but in a good way. You make me feel funny in my pants too, I hope you aren't offended.
Aw ... I was thinking this was pornographic and we were going to hear all about it.
It was religious reference. Shows something about somebody.
Moe: I meant the HOWARD brothers. Larry's name was Fine. You might have misheard the the boxing episode. Curly says "Moe, Larry, the cheese!" Not "Moe, Larry and Jesus."
Maybe I should read more Bible and watch less Stooges.
Moe: I meant the HOWARD brothers. Larry's name was Fine. You might have misheard the the boxing episode. Curly says "Moe, Larry, the cheese!" Not "Moe, Larry and Jesus."
Maybe I should read more Bible and watch less Stooges.
Neshobanakni writes: "Moe: I completely disagree with your opinions, but the person(s) who post(s) in your name is(are) a total asshole(s)."
Yes, my impersonator is quite an asshole. I don't deserve this treatment.
I think that a number of commentors have misunderstood Ross's original post. He is not claiming that Obama is the Antichrist and neither is he commenting on people who do believe that, since he doesn't seem to think very many such people exist. What he is saying is that the Republicans have run certain ads with religious imagery with the purpose of mocking the attempts by the media and his supporters to portray Obama as a messiah but that certain Democrats and media people have taken these ads and, either deliberately or ignorantly, misinterpereted them as painting Obama as the Antichrist. Thus he is criticising the democrats and MSM for their ignorance of and hostility to Christianity.
Consider this quote, "the people who think Obama might be the Antichrist and the people who think the McCain campaign is cannily designing its campaign ads to exploit fears that Obama might be the Antichrist deserve each other. (The difference, of course, is that the former group consists of minor-league kooks, obscure bloggers and chain-email peddlers, whereas the latter consists of Democratic strategists and writers for Time Magazine - the same Time, one might note, that has not once but twice put Barack Obama on its cover with a halo around his head.)"
Note his comparison between "minor league kooks" on the one hand and Time magazine on the other.
There's a rather important fact all the rapture experts around here seem to have overlooked. The percentage of knuckle-dragging, snake-wielding, tongue-talking, cousin-marrying, rapture-believing slavery sympathizers who think the Anti-Christ will be an American president is in the single digits. That's because the vast majority of them, for all their faults, are extremely patriotic and believe that American Exceptionalism is solely due to God's providence. In that vein, they believe/hope that America is the place of refuge that the persecuted flee to "on wings of eagles." While I haven't read any of the Left Behind books, I am at least knowledgeable enough about various rapture theories from studying them fifteen years ago to know that Tim LaHaye would never make Nicolae Carpathia an American and Wikipedia has confirmed that he is Romanian. That's because the most popular view is that he will be a European, which is also why Rapture Watchers are extremely leery of the E.U. What they see in Obama is an extremely charismatic, messianic candidate who has charmed the press with his progressive agenda and citizen-of-the-world rhetoric. That's got them all a twitter not because they think Obama is the Anti-Christ, but for the same reason that just about every piece of global news gets their hearts racing; they think it's all paving the way for "the man of sin," and they are getting a glimpse of how the world will fall under his spell.
The percentage of knuckle-dragging, snake-wielding, tongue-talking, cousin-marrying, rapture-believing slavery sympathizers who think the Anti-Christ will be an American president is in the single digits. That's because the vast majority of them, for all their faults, are extremely patriotic and believe that American Exceptionalism is solely due to God's providence.
Posted by Renee | August 9, 2008 11:06 PM
Proof, please?
OT: in light of today's events, one might ask that skidmark on the underpants of society Matt Steinglass whether he would revise his smug views of June 21 in the thread "Speaking Truth to Power":
This blog doesn't suffer from trolls; it suffers from Balrogs.
yazzel, Renee can't prove it because she is a lying liar hyppocrite Bushpig.
By the way, I apologize for the very weird behavior of the troll at 9:32. These people who mimic me have no respect for civilized debate. I think our overwhelming wit, reason, and committment to good faith arguments have scared away the trolls for now, although they will no doubt return. But together, yazzel, you and I will thwart them. Indeed, we shining word-warriors of the Left shall impale them on the sharp blade of our intellect. The justice of our cause, in combination with our nobility of spirit, shall verily win the day.
And as for the Reich wing Bushpig mercenaries, when they are torn apart by noble insurgent fighters, let us all repeat, with conviction: "Screw Them".
lampwick, you seem like an intelligent soul. What do you think should be done about the Bushpig sycophant who continues to impersonate me? (And if you doubt that the above is an impersonation, note that he claims to like Kos. I have said before that I despise Kos.)
Of course, in 2004 the repubs told Arkansans that John Kerry was going to confiscate their Bibles if elected
What? I live in Arkansas and I don't remember anything like this.
Why on earth is the substance of random email junk mail treated like it has any real impact? It's nonsense.
On a completely unrelated note, I find it amusing that once Ross got rid of those pesky commenters it freed him up to be an even bigger scarecrow slaying douche.
Given the utterly abysmal quality of the commenters on this site, it would be no loss if all commenting was disabled permanently. You people are a bad joke.
This ad is aimed at the end-times crowd, no doubt about it.
Have I pointed out that you people are fucking morons?
Dear MoeLarryandJesus,
Change your pseudonym.
Or go post somewhere else, like eschaton, where no one will bother you.
Sincerely,
Lampwick
Wow. This is either unintentional brilliance or AWing as hell. Either way, a well designed-post for what your job is, but sad for anyone who tries to take you seriously.
The conflation is just a bit too much.
MoeLarryandJesus is actually a guy named Jim Keane. He is in his mid-forties and is pudgy. Jim Keane has a potty mouth and uses the word Dumbya.
even a third [impersonator] who is probably insane. That would be me, the real MoeLarryAndJesus.
The percentage of knuckle-dragging, snake-wielding, tongue-talking, cousin-marrying, rapture-believing slavery sympathizers who think the Anti-Christ will be an American president is in the single digits. That's because the vast majority of them, for all their faults, are extremely patriotic and believe that American Exceptionalism is solely due to God's providence.
Posted by Renee | August 9, 2008 11:06 PM
Proof, please?
Posted by yazzel | August 9, 2008 11:20 PM
Oh, yes! Because the level of argumentation here demands footnotes, after all. Just pop into your local bookstore sometimes and browse the books on end time prophecy. They will virtually all claim that the Anti-Christ will be European. That is the basic, default assumption among most rapture believers. To find a people claiming that he will be American you have to go into self-published books and kooks on the street corner wearing sandwich boards. I'm sure every president has them, but the one that I recall seeing went something like this: Ronald=6 Wilson=6 Reagan=6. You can call Lindsey, Haggee, LaHaye, Jeffries, Walvoord, and other popular end times writers simplistic fundamentalists, but they do base their beliefs on a more sophisticated biblical interpretation than that. They all go back to Daniel's prophecy of the beast with ten horns rising out of the sea and spend considerable time in their books explaining why this beast is the revived Roman Empire. Hal Lindsey's Wikipedia entry explains the standard Rapture Watcher position:
"In The Late, Great Planet Earth, Lindsey wrote that he had concluded, since there was no apparent mention of the United States of America in the books of Daniel or Revelation, that the USA would no longer be a major player on the geo-political stage by the time the tribulations of the end times arrived. Lindsey also interpreted from Revelations and prophetic texts that the European Economic Community, which preceded the European Union, was destined (according to Biblical prophecy) to become a "United States of Europe", with ten members, which in turn he says is destined to become a "Revived Roman Empire" ruled by the Antichrist. The European Union currently has 27 members and the Western European Union (a military alliance) has 10 primary members." For anyone to deny that this is standard end time belief while claiming they know all about those Rapture believing fundamentalists is disingenuous, one way or another.
TO: All
RE: morzer of Mordor
"It seems the fundie trolls have gone back to Mordor for the night." -- mozer
Unlike the real denizens of Mordor, whose projection is blatantly obvious to even the most casual observer....
....a Go[o]dly number of us have other things to do outside of the blogosphere, i.e., preparing supper to enjoy with our extended families. Watching a good movie. Reading a good book. Writing computer code. Sleeping. Appreciating our spouses.
It's called having a [REAL] Life.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Life is like a sewer. You get out of it what you put into it.]
Hmmm.. and it never crossed Lindsey's mind that the Books of Daniel and Revelation were written before the US (or Europe!) existed? Are you endorsing Lindsey's ideas, btw? Or are you producing specimens for debate?
Also, people who are "sophisticated" interpreters often achieve their sophistication by ignoring a certain amount of common sense, not to mention history. After a certain point, you can wring any meaning you want out of numerology and prophecy. Europe, to take one example, is now rather more than 10 states, if you include the Balkans and Central Europe.
Chuckie, I am sure you and your bride share an opulent trollish pit beneath Minas Morgul. Doubtless you and Shelob have a gay old time torturing prisoners and burning copies of the constitution.
TO: Megan McArdle, et al.
RE: Obama as the Anti-Christ?
Funny think that. Yesterday I was conversing—via e-mail—with members of my county political party, of which I am a co-chair for my precinct, and members of my Friday Morning Mens' Bible Study Group.
Somewhere else in the blogosphere, I'd stumbled upon someone who mentioned the term Obamanation. And it struck me in two ways:
[1] If Obama becomes the President of the United States, does that make the US an Obamanation?
[2] Did Christ predict Obama as the President? After all, in the gospels He mentions the Obamanation that maketh Desolation. Maybe there was some confusion in the translation to English way-back-when.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Dates in prophecy are closer than they appear in your Bible.]
It seems Chuck Pelto is going for the whack-job of the week award. As for the pathetic word-play, Chuckie is obviously not much of a Christian. The poor fool doesn't realize that the Bible was not written in English! How totally pathetic.
If you analyze the name "Chuck Pelto", you realize that he is in fact Satan. "Chuck" = "cast". "Pelt" = "skin". "O" clearly refers to the world after the apocalypse, when nothing remains. What is it that casts its skin? Clearly a snake. How does a snake connect to the apocalypse? Clearly the snake is Satan, the old serpent, who is ultimately responsible for the apocalypse, when, as Rev.12.17 reminds us Satan and his demons wage war against God's kingdom. Satan is now clearly identified as a Republican, which establishes that Obama, as their opponent, must be the Messiah.
TO: All
RE: Poking Fun...
....at Obama always brings out the 'best' in his supporters. Especially those whose grasp of English and History, let alone Religion, is tertiary...or worse.
Soon, I'll be accused of being a racist.
But I'm not worried. I've been abused by the best. And these 'orcs' can't hold a candle to the likes of Colonel 'No Slack' Stack.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[If you can't laugh at Life, you are probably going about it wrong.]
Get thee behind me, Satan! I am armed against your Republican wiles. Morzer, we are in your debt for revealing the hideous reality of the beast behind Senor Pelto's disguise as a tedious peddler of random idiocies.
That word tertiary you like so much - I do not think it means what you think it means.
When will the Enquirer publish the pictures? "Satan admits to S&M orgies with orcs. Had gay lover in the military. Don't ask don't tell not for Prince of Darkness."
TO: All
RE: More Evidence....
....of touching their collective 'nerve'.
"That word tertiary you like so much - I do not think it means what you think it means." -- inigomontoya
It's a good thing that he has a spell-checker with his computer. But it's too bad he doesn't have a good dictionary with it as well. Maybe he should get a Mac. The Dashboard has a very good dictionary in it and it says...
Tertiary, adjective, Third in the order or level.
But this is typical of the typical Obama supporter here. Going for the ad hom instead of read discussion. You see the pattern repeated throughout this thread.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.]
P.S. I suspect he'd be the happiest man on the face of the Earth, if he'd just look in the mirror.
This is one of those commentary threads where you can easily separate the lunatics from the sane.
Anyone who takes this "Obama is the Antichrist" stuff seriously- both those who actually believe Obama is the Antichrist, and those who take such people seriously along with seeing this symbolism in the McCain advertisement- is more than a few bricks short of a full load.
And I will point out that people who think Obama is the Antichrist are no more around the bend than those who proclaim Bush/McCain is Hitler-The Sequel.
Even if McCain's ad people wanted to reach out to religious fanatics, they don't need to- those people are voting for McCain already. You would have to be stupid and insane to put such symbolism into an ad to convert the already-converted. McCain's people are neither.
The ad was designed to puncture the high level of self regard you find in Obama and many of his more fervent supporters- and to my surprise, I must admit, the ads hit the mark effectively. A candidate's standing with the public depends not only the candidate's character, but also on the character of his most visible supporters. Obama, for the most part, holds up his end of the campaign, but his supporters, especially those in the media, are damaging him badly with their lack of humor and, now, conspiracy theorizing. One can now expect more ads like this that mock Obama and his supporters- they have shown just how effective they can be.
OT: in light of today's events, one might ask that skidmark on the underpants of society Matt Steinglass whether he would revise his smug views of June 21 in the thread "Speaking Truth to Power":
OT: in light of today's events, one might ask that skidmark on the underpants of society Matt Steinglass whether he would revise his smug views of June 21 in the thread "Speaking Truth to Power":
Posted by: yazzel: Hmmm... and it never crossed Lindsey's mind that the Books of Daniel and Revelation were written before the US (or Europe!) existed?
Hmmmm...yazzel, are you aware that those are books of prophecy and are interpreted by many Christians to refer to things beyond the author's limited knowledge? Think Nostadamus; isn't he supposed to have written about Hitler and the Kennedy assassination?
Posted by: yazzel: Are you endorsing Lindsey's ideas, btw?
Does it sound to you like I am advocating a pre-tribulation end time position? Whatever could have given you that idea? Were you similarly confused by the New Yorker's Muslim Obama cover? I'll give you a hint, the New Yorker isn't a right wing publication.
Posted by: yazzel: Europe, to take one example, is now rather more than 10 states, if you include the Balkans and Central Europe.
Please follow along. The military alliance is still stuck at 10 countries. If and when it exceeds that number, I am confident that the 10 horns will be redefined into a more specific subset, but the point remains that end times theology is based on the idea that the beast is of European origin. There are many reasons for this and all of the authors I mentioned have written a great deal about why this is so. An assertion or two from you doesn't make it otherwise or change the beliefs of those who support this world view who are looking for a European antichrist.
Posted by: yazzel: Also, people who are "sophisticated" interpreters often achieve their sophistication by ignoring a certain amount of common sense, not to mention history. After a certain point, you can wring any meaning you want out of numerology and prophecy.
You don't say. That is really an eye opening revelation, but isn't this discussion specifically about whether McCain's ad plays into fundamentalist fears that Barack Obama as the Antichrist? I am not claiming that Lindsey et al, are all that sophisticated in their biblical interpretation, just light years more than the placard wearing nutjobs who claim that this president or that president is the Antichrist and more sophisticated than many here are giving them credit for.
Renee, I can't see much difference between one whack-job and another. Perhaps I lack your immersion in these communities of misinterpretation? At any rate, I won't waste time defending their various follies. Where Nostradamus is concerned, those prophecies have been interpreted in so many ways as to be literally meaningless. Revelation and the Letters of John are charming pieces of literary fantasy, from a long tradition of Hellenistic apocalyptic Judaism, but it's hard to think of a top-flight theologian who takes them seriously as a part of the core message of Christianity. Still, if you get something out of them, I wish you well.
I think Satan Pelto needs to work on his ground game. Funny how the rants become less coherent as time goes by. Still, do go on, Chuckie. At the very least, you provide cheap amusement.
Sorry for the multiple posts (I refreshed a couple times, and I guess that resent the original post, which was still in the window).
I'd also like to apologize for the intemperate tone of the post(s). Steinglass irritated me with his pedantic certainty, which has now been shown to be tragically misplaced.
Re the topic of this thread, I'm with Yancey, who posted good sense, as usual.
TO: Yancey Ward
RE: Target!!!!
"One can now expect more ads like this that mock Obama and his supporters- they have shown just how effective they can be." -- Yancey Ward
Indeed. And watching them snap and slobber as a rabid dog is going to be a LOT of fun.
It certainly has provided plenty of entertainment here.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Wit makes its own welcome, and levels all distinctions. No dignity, no learning, no force of character, can make any stand against good wit. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson]
TO: yazzel
RE: Misunderstanding v. Misinterpretation
"....I can't see much difference between one whack-job and another. Perhaps I lack your immersion in these communities of misinterpretation?" -- yazzel
In the one hand, your lack of ability to 'differentiate' between "one whack-job and another" might be a function of hanging with too many of them in the first place.
On the other hand, it might be a function of being poorly educated. After all, a good grasp of information is useful for identification purposes. Or do you just accept whatever sign someone puts on a plant as being 'accurate'? If that were the case, if someone put a sign saying "Arugula" in a patch of Poison Ivy, would you pick a handful and put it in your salad?
On the third hand, maybe you just don't care.
I think my money is on option #3 with regards to your approach.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Education replaces an empty mind with an open one.]
P.S. That's if it's home-schooled, these days.
Looking at Chuck Pelto's posts, I suspect we are seeing the meltdown of a limited mind in the throes of paranoid insecurity. Poor fool doesn't have an original thought in over a dozen posts.
Tired stuff from you, Chuckie, tired stuff. I bet your rants have doubled Democratic turnout in your county already. Please, keep up the good work.
"There is an impostor posting in my name. Possibly several. I think there is one left wing impostor and one right wing impostor, and possibly even a third one who is probably insane."
I think the third on might actually be you. One less impostor to worry about. Ain't ceaseless malevolent attention fun?
TO: All
RE: Obama as AntiChrist
If you understand the Word as presented in that Old Book, EVERYONE is, in essence 'antiChrist'; 'anti' meaning against and 'Christ' meaning the Biblical Christian Messiah.
How is this possible? Well, because, according to that Old Book, EVERYONE 'sins' and if you sin you're against what Christ preaches, i.e., to stop sinning.
The BIG difference between Christians and the rest of the World is that the Christians supposedly recognize they have a serious problem. And, accordingly, if they are REALLY Christians, are trying to overcome that problem. They do this by asking forgiveness and at least honestly trying to do better.
Whether or not Obama does that in all honesty and supplication is an unknown. After all, we've seen plenty of politicians claim to be one thing when their behavior is something completely different. This is, by definition, hypocrisy. Another thing that Christ was REALLY upset about with some people.
Is Obama anti-Christ? Well....if you look at it from a certain perception, yes. As we all are. But is he THE AntiChrist; an entity alleged to arise in the End Times to be a dominant figure on the Earth before Christ returns and overpowers him?
Who can say? Certainly not many, if any, on this plane of existence. Only time and history will tell. Personally? I doubt it. But one never can tell.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[There is nothing new in the world except the history you do not know. -- Harry S. Truman]
TO: yazzel
RE: Tired...Eh?
"Tired stuff from you, Chuckie, tired stuff." -- yazzel
As I said (above), you're nature is blatantly obvious.
RE: Local Dems
"I bet your rants have doubled Democratic turnout in your county already." -- yazzel
Actually, in this community, where registered Dems outnumber registered Repubs by 2-to-1, more and Dems are changing the registration to Repub.
I know one guy who's convinced his whole extended family to do so. And in a largely Hispanic community, that's rather extensive.
Why?
Because of Obama. Indeed, one of the wheels in that party showed up at a Repub committee meeting and offered to get a group together for the State Fair Parade float and wave a banner stating....
Democrats for McCain
You can't make this stuff up....
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[There is no more independence in politics than there is in jail. -- Will Rogers]
P.S. But sometimes the 'convict[ed]' escape....
Wait, has anyone played this ad backwards to see what it really means?
TO: ken in sc
RE: Backwards
"Wait, has anyone played this ad backwards to see what it really means?" -- ken in sc
Will it say, "Paul is dead"?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Oh I get it...like humor...but different.]
It seems little Chuckie is simply another orc with delusions of grandeur. Not even an Urukhai. Fortunately, we know which side won in the end.
TO: yazzel, et al.
RE: Talking Prophecy
Anyone who wishes to talk about 'prophecy'—Biblical or otherwise—is welcome to discuss it with me, in detail, at my preferred web-site for such.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[It's later than you might care to think.]
P.S. Wear body armor....or steel your mind and 'gird up your loins'......
....I've got stuff that will [likely] 'make you WHITE!'
TO: yazzel, et al.
RE: Talking Prophecy
Anyone who wishes to talk about 'prophecy'—Biblical or otherwise—is welcome to discuss it with me, in detail, at my preferred web-site for such.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[It's later than you might care to think.]
P.S. Wear body armor....or steel your mind and 'gird up your loins'......
....I've got stuff that will [likely] 'make you WHITE!'
Yazzel,
No wonder I confused you. If you take a passing reference to Nostradamus as belief in his prophecies and their modern interpretations, I can see how your head must be spinning from my comments. The point is that one misguided fool is not the same as another misguided fool. As I said to begin with, the idea of an American Antichrist is antithetical to the beliefs of the vast majority of those who it is claimed the McCain ad is aimed at. I was asked for to support my claim, which I have done. I have explained the beliefs of a particular group of Christians against those who claimed to know for a fact what they were talking about but obviously don't. I have never claimed to hold those beliefs personally and thought that from my acerbic tone it was obvious that I don't.
Yazzel said: Revelation and the Letters of John are charming pieces of literary fantasy, from a long tradition of Hellenistic apocalyptic Judaism, but it's hard to think of a top-flight theologian who takes them seriously as a part of the core message of Christianity. Still, if you get something out of them, I wish you well.
Have you ever heard of this guy?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI
I don't know what circles you run in, but in mine, we consider him top-flight. Would love to stay and chat, but I am on my way to witness and take part in the Revelation of St. John right now. I hope to meet you there some day. Peace.
http://tiny.cc/gwmXc
TO: Renee
RE: Uuuuuhhhh....
"No wonder I confused you. If you take a passing reference to Nostradamus as belief in his prophecies and their modern interpretations, I can see how your head must be spinning from my comments." -- Renee
I think you're being entirely too (1) kind and/or (2) naive. I've seen this sort of comportment in 'discussions' before. And I suspect that our friend yazzel, is doing nothing more, nor anything less than what I've seen all too often in the past....
....throwing dust in the air in order to cloud the matter under discussion.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[If you can't convince them, confuse them. -- some Democrat]
TO: All
RE: I Suspect....
...that all of these 'denizens' of the 'Progressive' persuasion will not participate in the offering to discuss 'prophecy'.
Why?
For the most part, because they are so totally ignorant of anything to do with the religious beliefs of the people they decry. They'll be easy prey for anyone who has made even a cursory pass through that Old Book. Let alone someone who has committed their life to the Truth.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Jesus astonishes and overpowers sensual people. They cannot unite him to history, or reconcile him with themselves. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson]
P.S. But, if you think you have what-it-takes to debate such matters, feel free to join me at....
http://www.comensarations.info/index.php/weblog/talking_prophecy_080810/
P.P.S. Failure to participate will be construed as acquiescence....., i.e., a Monty Python Moment....Run awaaaayyyyyy!!!!!!
Obama is not a vegetarian. So he can't be the antichrist. From the BBC - oldish but a classic:
Hi Chuck,
Number one is a possibility; two is a definite no; however, I'm leaning towards a third possibility which is that Yazzel's reading skills have some gaps.
Hmmm I do love the sound of wingnut whining in the evening. Oh, and Renee, nice try at the significant theologian issue, but no-one considers Benedict original or significant. Have you ever considered thinking about your positions? As for the attempt to pretend that you aren't a LaHaye girl, well, hardly convincing. Still, nice try. Maybe you can get a pair of McCain flipflops with all the trollpoints you have earned?
The problem with Renee's viewpoint is that Benedict only ever talks about Revelation as essentially historical and symbolic. There's no core Christianity there, just a certain amount of crude triumphalism. Equally, calling Benedict a significant theologian is preposterous. He is a rather crudely conservative, run-of-the-mill Catholic, typical of the favorites of the late John Paul.
It's a shame that we have had to waste so much time on an idiot like Chuck Pelto, but I am glad no-one is going to take him too seriously. I laughed when we discovered his true Satanic identity. I was however just a touch disappointed to find that even the Devil offers such weak arguments and such limited writing.
TO: Renee
RE: Possibilities
"Number one is a possibility; two is a definite no; however, I'm leaning towards a third possibility which is that fill in the blank reading skills have some gaps." -- Renee
The third possibility is self-evident. Indeed, it seems to be rampant amongst that lot. Look at the thread and the manifest lack of grasp of the English language. Let alone such concepts as logic. Nor even a basic knowledge of what they are supposedly opposed to. It's all just bombast and bluster and their sophomoric, de rigueur ad homs.
These are the people that Someone warned us about two thousand years ago when He said, "Cast not your pearls before large, domesticated members of the Suidae family," or something like that.
Hence my comment to you about naiveté.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[When you wrestle with a pig, he likes it; you get dirty.]
TO: Renee
RE: [OT] Say What?
"....I am on my way to witness and take part in the Revelation of St. John right now. I hope to meet you there some day." -- Renee
I understand the 'witness' business.
Tell me how you 'take part in' the Revelation of St. John.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Atheism is a non-prophet organization.]
Chuck
One of the reasons many Protestants have jumped the shark with the Book of Revelation is because they lost its meaning, which is also why other Protestants (like some here) are so dismissive of its usefulness. The book is central to Catholic theology. Catholics believe that the during the mass we are joining with those in heaven in worship and prayer, the very same eternal worship service that St. John witnessed in the Book of Revelation when he was caught up to heaven. In fact, much of the book serves as a model for the mass. (The rest is the framework for the Catholic worldview that Jesus's parables flesh out.) This is the reason why Catholics have tried to make the interiors of their churches and Cathedrals resemble the description of heaven in the Book of Revelation, when they could, and the practically de rigueur ceiling mural of heaven opening with the angels and saints looking down on the congregation. When we go to mass, we go to heaven, just like St. John did when he saw his vision. When we receive communion, we are taking part in the wedding supper of the lamb as described in Revelation. We bring that little piece of the divine food back with us to this world of tribulation and share it with others when we do good works. That is how the kingdom of heaven is built here on earth, and like Dickens said, it is the best of times (The kingdom of heaven is at hand) and it is the worst of times (it comes out of The Great Tribulation spoken by St. John). That is what my rapture watching friends cannot grasp; the wheat and the tares grow up together, just as described in the Apocalypse.
Maxim,
Who is on your list of top-flight theologians?
TO: Renee
RE: Interesting....
....report that.
Thanks.
RE: Revelation
The way I look at that book of that Old Book, where thinks get 'confusing', is to read it through the eyes of a man from the 1st Century.
How would a man of that time, given a vision of future events, describe them to his contemporaries. I suspect he'd use terms that his contemporaries could understand.
Hence, a strange locust that does not eat grass, looks like a horse arrayed for battle, has locks of hair like women, crowns that shine like gold, the faces of men, wears breastplates like iron and its flight sounds like chariots racing to battle....
....could well be his description of a vision of the AH64 Apache attack helicopter.
• They don't eat grass, they drink JP4
• The ITOW missiles on their wings resemble spears
• The four-blades of the main rotor assembly, when folded back for transport look like four braids of hair
• Plexiglass windshields reflect the dessert Sun VERY well.
• Look in the cockpit and what do you see? Faces of men.
• The kevlar armor on the fuselage comes off like a Roman legionaries armor
And en massé their flight IS like being in the Ben Hur chariot race
[Note: Three guesses as to how I know that last part.]
They’re reported in that book to fly for five months and then a great war breaks out in the Euphrates River valley.
The 82d Airborne Division deployed to Saudi Arabia—in response to Hussein’s invasion of Kuwait—in mid-August 1990. They brought their AH64s with them.
The shooting war broke out in Iraq, where the Euphrates River flows, in mid-January 1991.
Do the math.....
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Coincidence, n., When God works a miracle and doesn’t get the credit.]
Chuck Pelto babbles: "Indeed, it seems to be rampant amongst that lot. Look at the thread and the manifest lack of grasp of the English language. Let alone such concepts as logic. Nor even a basic knowledge of what they are supposedly opposed to. It's all just bombast and bluster and their sophomoric, de rigueur ad homs."
Chucky may think that passage is an example of good writing, but it's really just public masturbation.
And he's shooting blanks.
TO: MoeLarryAndJesus
RE: Crossing the Proverbial Line
"...it's really just public masturbation." -- MoeLarryAndJesus
I was wondering where all the adolescents had gone.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. Where is the 'hall monitor'? I think one of them is running 'loose' here....
TO: All
RE: Anyone Here....
....familiar with the Terms of Service?
I DO believe that there is a statement about....
"By using this service you agree not to post material that is obscene...."
As I said, how do I get in touch with the 'hall monitor' here?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
WorldNetDaily lists among its columnists the following people: David Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Chuck Norris, Pat Buchanan, Phyllis Schlafly, Jerome Corsi and many others who are by no means shunned by the right.
What, then, to think of the fact it recently published Hal Lindsey's column, "How Obama prepped world for the Antichrist"? Is it acceptable if I, as a liberal, point out that accepted right-wing magazines are expressly stating an Obama/Antichrist connection or is that paranoid?
Chuck Pelto wants to know: "As I said, how do I get in touch with the 'hall monitor' here?"
Just reach into your pants and press the magic button, chuckles. You'll find it under your McCain pin.
nitpicker writes: "WorldNetDaily lists among its columnists the following people: David Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Chuck Norris, Pat Buchanan, Phyllis Schlafly, Jerome Corsi and many others who are by no means shunned by the right.
What, then, to think of the fact it recently published Hal Lindsey's column, "How Obama prepped world for the Antichrist"? Is it acceptable if I, as a liberal, point out that accepted right-wing magazines are expressly stating an Obama/Antichrist connection or is that paranoid?"
Nothing paranoid about it - it's a fact. That Beltway neocons like Douthat pretend it isn't happening doesn't change that.
World Nut Daily is always good for a laugh, isn't it?
TO: MoeLarryAndJ
RE: The Right Button
"Just reach into your pants and press the magic button...." -- MLaJ
The 'button' is actually at the top of this page and leads to Home, which allows for 'Contact Us'.
Let's see whether or not The Atlantic plays by its own 'rules'.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. Whereas the distaff continually reminds me of the female lead in Life Force....
....well...you might be able to understand why your off-color, i.e., obscene, humor was so laughable.
She even had the same maiden name.....
Chuck Pelto seems like the kind of guy who talks to himself in Klingon.
ML&J,
Not with himself, just a bunch of morons, by all appearances.
Re: Contemporary American conservative Christianity is much closer to traditional Christianity than the wishy-washy liberal variants of the religion that have arisen in western nations over the last few decades.
The original poster may have overstated his case, but he has a point: theological ignorance is rife among Evangelicals (and among other Christians too of course) and that includes the leadership. Check out "The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind", written by an Evangelical lamenting the gross ignorance of his fellows. And among (some) Pentacostals, not to mention the LDS and the JWs, one finds revenant heresies that were roundedly condmened by the ancient and medieval Church. Yes, there's the occasional Bishop Spong among the mainliners, though one should not confuse laxness on some discipline issues (like homosexuality or even abortion) with outright heresy.
Meanwhile, Christianity has also deep roots in America's liberal tradition. The forerunners of the Evangelicals, the churches of the Great Awakening, were almost shockingly liberal in their day: most were racially integrated and many allowed women to preach (things which were discontinued when these churches became "respectable"). The Abolitionist movement is unintelligible without an understanding of its Christian passions. And within living memory Christian churches played a prominent role in the Civil Rights movement and the anti-war movement. Yes, this sort of thing has its dangers: the extremism of the Abolitoionists helped bring on the Civil War, and today's pro-Life extremism has saved no children, merely assisted scoundrels, frauds and warmongers into power. The biggest danger, IMO, is the partisanship of today's religious activists: that is fairy unprecedented. The Christian churches should, I think, take a long time out to search their souls and recollect the Kingdom of God is not of this world, that Christians have no call to build worldly utopias--and that in Christ there is neither Democrat nor Republican, liberal nor conservative.
TO: All
RE: The Atlantic
Apparently the people responsible for 'managing' these threads don't really care what people say on them. And the warning (below the posting point) has no meaning whatsoever.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Chuck Pelto complains: "Apparently the people responsible for 'managing' these threads don't really care what people say on them. And the warning (below the posting point) has no meaning whatsoever."
Or maybe they're just well-balanced adults, Chucky, and they realize that your opinion about what qualifies as "obscene" marks you as an unhinged zealot with the sensibility of a Victorian spinster.
Stick with those Zippy-The-Pinhead non sequitur opening sentences.
This time it took a whole FIVE comments before you got pwned! Baby steps, girl, baby steps ... sure, the whacko liberals have totally jumped the shark with their read on things like McCain's "THE ONE" ad, or the veritable plague of Obama-as-Antichrist e-mails: any good German, er, American will simply ignore them (unless they've had the scales lifted from their atavistic little eyes, in which case they BELIEVE EVERY WORD).
Waiting for a lucid justification for supporting a man with known mental-health issues regarding anger, as he seeks a position that puts him in control of a massive nuclear arsenal. And waiting, and waiting, and waiting ...
jim writes: "Waiting for a lucid justification for supporting a man with known mental-health issues regarding anger, as he seeks a position that puts him in control of a massive nuclear arsenal. And waiting, and waiting, and waiting ..."
Let's remember that McCain actually tried to kill himself - twice. Imagine if a Democratic nominee had that sort of psychological baggage. We'd never hear the end of it.
TO: All
RE: Under Law....
....dating back to Middle English Common Law, it is a violation for any organization—governmental or government recognized—to not uphold and abide by the statutes, codes, ordinances, resolutions and/or regulations that describe it's operations and activities.
Unresolved violates of such matters make said organization anathema.
If Megan is willing to work with The Atlantic, in understanding that The Atlantic does NOT observe its own Rules of Conduct/Engagement, then it falls upon her, as well as upon the ownership, management, and staff of The Atlantic.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out....]
P.S. I'm certain that everyone will read more about this in the future....
...on other venues where it cannot be squelched.