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Parks

07 Aug 2008 10:01 am

As an addendum to the last post, Ryan Avent notes:

I don't mean to pick on Atrios, because he does a lot of great urbanism stuff, but this is also only half right. You can have walkability and a big yard, so long as you aren't picky about whether or not the yard is your own private property. That's the tradeoff.

The essence of a good, walkable, urban place is density, but it's density that's achieved in part by publicly supplying a lot of the things people want, and thereby achieving a more efficient use of space. Is it necessary for every last home on the block to have a decorative, manicured lawn that does nothing but sit there getting watered and mowed? No way, a couple of public gardens will suffice. Is it necessary for every home to have its own blacktop square with basketball hoop that sits unused 99 percent of the time? Is it necessary for every home to have a place for a father and son to play catch, or for a guy to sit in the shade and read?

A well-planned city will provide good public spaces-sidewalks and retail corridors and public gardens and parks. When you frame the tradeoff as being between open space and walkability, many will say, oh well, it would have been cool to walk places. But that's not necessarily how it has to be. Washingtonians can sit on their patio or balcony and grill or have a coffee, and when they need more space to shoot hoops or admire some greenery or whatever, there are plenty of places to do that. And when they don't want to make their own coffee and sit by themselves, well, they can walk to places where they don't have to.

Parks are definitely the key to building a city that works over the entire life-cycle.  But I'd dispute that DC has done a good job of this.  Indeed, this is one of the things that my mother, who has just moved here from New York, often complains about--there aren't really any adequate parks in Northwest, at least east of Rock Creek.  I live a few blocks from one of the better ones, but it's not very good for dogs, and no good for children at all; it's basically a place for adults to take a stroll (and at night, to sell drugs). 

Middle class families are, IMHO, the backbone of a thriving city--they're the stabilizing force that keeps civil society together.  And those families will not stay in DC, in part because of the schools, but also in part because DC is not constructed to make it easy to have small children here.  In New York, on the other hand, there are dozens and dozens of neighborhoods where families can live within walking distance of a sizeable park, replete with playground equipment, sledding hills, and fountains to splash in.

Comments (88)

Just a personal anecdote on the subject. When I moved to Cleveland for what would become a two-year stint, I thought I was moving to a grey, gloomy industrial wasteland.
I was pleasantly surprised to find that their parks system is expansive and extremely popular. The parks encircle the city in a sort of semicircle so that no matter where you live, you're reasonably close to a park.
While the yards of most homes are admittedly small, the value added to the community by having a nice, well-maintained and safe parks system is remarkable.
Considering Cleveland used to have a problem with pollution (some would say they still do, but at least their rivers are burning), I would argue that the city could be a model for improvement.

Correction: "some would say they still do, but at least their rivers are no longer burning)

i think the ideal walkable comminity is the area around Trocadero in Paris.

Check it out by using Google satelite view.

Notice the buildings are set back about 3 ft from narrow streets; that the main floors are used by small shops - butchers, bakers, charcoutiers, cleaners, hardware, cafes, et, Notice that each building has a large interior courtyard where children play safe from cars and bad guys.

In the ideal walking community shopping and residences are integrated, streets are narrow, and interior courtyards and rooftop gardens prevail.

I would argue that you can't have your own vegetable garden in a public park, which has good utility. Otherwise, this is right on. Plus, you can have a smaller garden with a smaller lawn that still produced a good amount of produce. If you don't want to bother, a park is more than sufficient (and they build community too, which is also a plus).

I guess it depends on what you define as a "big yard". If you are talking about acre lots like my parents had in suburban Oklahoma City, then yes big yards make an area un walkable. If you are talking about quarter acre lots like people have in the nicer areas of NW DC or Chevy Chase and Bethesda, then there is nothing about yards that make an area un-walkable. I live in Bethesda and am about a mile and a half from the downtown area. The walk is very pleasent and goes through really nice tree lined neighborhoods, some homes with big yards some with smaller ones. What is not walkable about that?

The big advantage of a yard is that it gives you space from your neighbors. My wife's cousin lives in a big town home community in Virginia where no one has a yard and it sucks. You can't walk to your window without staring your neighbor in the face. What people like Atrios and apparently Megan don't get is that some people value space. No Megan I don't want to live in an apartment anymore. I don't care how nice or close the parks are. I want a yard and some space from my neighbors. Why that seems to bother people like Megan is beyond me. Moreover, that preference does not make areas unwalkable.

Just to throw in a contrary perspective, you can keep your community, and your (ugh) neighbors, and the parks with other people's children in them, where my dogs wouldn't be welcome. Give me a good ten-acre buffer zone, and let me walk the entire perimeter of my land without being able to see another house. Heaven. If I want to be around other people, I can invite them to my house, go to theirs, or go to town.

I grew up in an inner suburb of Milwaukee. Lots were ~40 ft wide and ~.15 acres. This is considered small nowadays but it was big enough for BBQs and playing catch out front. The neighbors let us run our post patterns from our yard onto theirs. Plenty of neighbors on the block, walking distance to elem school, park, church, shopping, and bus rides into the city.

Trees and grass provide shade, cool the area, prevent runoff, filter the air a bit, etc.

Modest yards are great in many ways, but anything greater than a 1/4 acre seems excessive.

I think virtually all of society would disagree with your analysis.

Offer them a nice 2500 sq ft house in the suburbs with a half acre partially wooded lot, or offer them a 800 sq foot apartment in the city and we all know what the majority of people would pick.

BTW, one of my dreams has been to own enough property out here (in the west) where I can build a house, get some horses for my family and be able to ride all day and night without really running into anyone. Although I don't mind dense urban living for a relatively short period of time (2-3 year intervals perhaps) it's never been a dream of mine to "move to the city where it's more crowded!

The problem with public spaces is that they're public. Anyone can use them, and they often end up being dominated by the worst elements of society.

@B. Minich:

I would argue that you can't have your own vegetable garden in a public park, which has good utility.

Boston has a number of "community gardens" in which everyone who cares to sign up gets about a 12 x 12 plot for their personal use. I understand other cities have similar arrangements.

FWIW, I live in an area of Boston that has homes on very small lots -- it is certainly less than 20 feet from my window to my neighbor's house -- but we could easily grow a few vegetables in our small yard. The major impediment is that the houses in the area were painted with lead paint for most of the last century, which has since leached into the soil, and so we'd have to replace a fair bit of dirt to start a garden.

Although I detest lawns, I used to think what I wanted was a big wooded yard, large enough that I couldn't see my neighbors. Lately, I've discovered that the key quality is not size, but privacy. I'd be perfectly happy with a living-room sized courtyard, so long as it was sufficiently shielded from view and pleasantly green.

I have lived in L.A., D.C., and Fresno, CA, where I currently have a home. I can honestly say that I am much happier having a home of my own in Fresno. I can get the principal joys of urban life and its culture simply by visiting LA or San Francisco when I wish.

There is just something about having your own land and home, separate from others, that is just yours . That is a feeling very different from dense, urban life, but at least with a family, I find it significantly better.

There's a reason (or really a cluster of reasons) that people with a choice about how to live - denser, urban cores vs. suburban environments, tend to choose detached, single family homes. This is not just fashion. It's called the American Dream for a reason. If you give people an equal choice between urban and suburban life, I think most would choose the latter. And those of us in the policy and political worlds should respect that choice.

"Middle class families are, IMHO, the backbone of a thriving city--they're the stabilizing force that keeps civil society together. And those families will not stay in DC, in part because of the schools, but also in part because DC is not constructed to make it easy to have small children here. In New York, on the other hand, there are dozens and dozens of neighborhoods where families can live within walking distance of a sizeable park, replete with playground equipment, sledding hills, and fountains to splash in."

Yeah because the middle class certainly stayed in New York City. None of them moved to Jersey or Long Island so they could have a home and a yard as opposed to a tenement, I mean apartment, in the city. Sometimes I really wonder what planet Megan lives on.


John: the middle class are moving back to the city. As for Jersey? The hottest place in Jersey right now is Hoboken, also Newport in JC. People live in Hoboken as long as possible, and leave only when school quality forces them to.

(Hoboken schools obey the 25/25 rule: $25,000/student puts you into the bottom 25% of the state.)

Ninja,

They are moving back to the city in some numbers but they will never move back to what they once were. As far as the burbs go, most people like having a house and a yard once they have kids. Yeah, you can do it in the city in an apartment but it is harder. Maybe once Megan breeds that is what she will do. But she is in the minority on that. I don't get why some people are so bothered by the fact that people like having their own homes and yards. There seems to be this idea that people live in the burbs because they are forced to not because they want to.

John, I'm not saying everyone who is middle class has to stay in the city; but when I was growing up there, New York had a sizeable middle class, and indeed in many parts of the boroughs, it still does. I'm not trying to force everyone to live in the city; I'm arguing that DC should build some damn parks so that parents who want to raise children in the city have a shot at doing so. Why this provokes such a hostile reaction is sort of puzzling.

I grew up in quarter-acre suburbia (which was, in my experience, pretty un-walkable - I could get to friends houses, but not realistically to any store or restaurant), have inlaws in what I guess could be called "upscale rural" with acres of lawn, and currently live in Brooklyn with toddlers in a 3rd floor walkup within walking distance to at least 3 good playgrounds or parks (and many more if your definition of "walking distance" includes "you need a good meal before hand to fortify yourself and the kids will only get a little whiny before you get there").

I am a big fan of the high density of parks for kids in Brooklyn. (Manhattan, not so much.) However, it is not even close to standing in for a back yard. Parks are public, and in any city or high-density area you need to keep constant vigilance over your kids - running out on the street, eating cigarette butts, garbage or god knows what off the ground, tangling with high school kids trying to use the same space, cornering rats, etc. With a private back yard, the kids could (and can, when they visit family in the boonies or rich friends) play outside in a much more controlled environment; therefore they'd get to play outside a lot more than my exhaustion currently permits.

That's not saying I want to mow Blenheim Palace. Frankly, if I had my parent's quarter acre plot, I'd dig up a lot of the lawn for something else. But a nice, entirely private patch big enough that I can just open the back door and let my son go run around while I fix dinner or rewire the blender or whatever else needs to be done after I get home from work? Oh yeah, walkability goes right out the window compared to that.

However, I agree that the trade-off isn't necessary. In Brooklyn, if you've got $1-2 million to get a brownstone (plus $30-40K/year for private schools), you can have a back yard, maybe 20 feet wide, 40 or so deep, which is plenty for most purposes. I see no reason that model can't be adopted (more affordably) elsewhere. In fact, I've got friends living in condos in New Jersey that are fairly similar, with small private yards backing onto public greenbelts and bike paths - a very nice arrangement, actually. (Until the local rapist started stalking the houses along the greenbelt, but that's another complaint.)

I should note that my friends' neighborhoods in NJ aren't actually walkable, either, but that's because of crappy planning, not the size of the yards.

it's basically a place for adults to take a stroll (and at night, to sell drugs).

My grandmother used to live in an apartment building which backed up to a lovely wooded part--in one of Seattle's ritzier, closer-in suburbs, literally a stone's throw from the lake (she had a partial lake view).

Yet at the time (mid 80's) the park was a known drug market. Mostly spoiled rich brats, but even so, you couldn't let your preschooler run free there. The problem with public space is that the public can use it. The great advantage of a fenced back yard is that you can let your preschooler run free.

Moreover, that preference does not make areas unwalkable.

I think this point deserves a little amplification. I live in a house in Arlington VA that has a yard big enough to play touch football in (oddly, this was not a particular selling point for us - to me a big yard means more effort but meager benefits).

Still, I can very easily walk to several restaurants, a coffee shop, movie theater, drug store, farmers market, etc etc.

It's not the footprint of the yard that makes a community unwalkable (although it does present some additional challenge), it's the suburban zoning practices that tend to actively separate useful stores from residential areas, I presume for the sake of "quiet" or whatever other concerns there might be.

I grew up in one of those neighborhoods, where the nearest anything was a two-mile trek at least. And our yard was much smaller.

Rural life isn't idyllic, but at a time in a person's life, one might prefer it.

I lived for nearly ten years off and on in Cologne, Germany, which is the type of city environment many American leftists salivate over. And I think it's a great, fun city. But mostly for the young. The popular public parks where people play games and grill and party in the summer are low on families with children. Most people rent.

Then I moved back to rural WV where I grew up and just enjoyed a delicious head of broccoli out of my own garden. Hard to beat.

But a list of benefits of living in this part of the American boonies and having a large tract of yard would have to include not only gardening, but also shamelessly low property tax rates and very limited regulations. Once people move close together to live, their inherent busy-bodies break free and they start taxing and regulating the living daylights out of everything. They do this in the name of providing public goods to all those stacked-up apartment residents, such as parks and better schools and such.

Yes, I, too, often may wish my neighbors hadn't let their yards go wild or started keeping chickens or promoted the beat-up, rusty pickup to lawn ornament status. But then I think that if I lived somewhere where I could tell them what to do with their land, they'd soon start telling me what to do with my own.

In sum, I think we need to pass the hat to resettle Megan farther westward onto a farm in the Blue Ridge or something. She might discover some rather sublime rural joys she had never previously considered.

DC does build parks - there's an interesting one over in Petworth that was completed just about a year ago - Taylor Street, between New Hampshire and GA Ave.

It's a nice little effort - none of your Moses-esque tarmac, with great jungle gyms and a fenced-in lawn, and a water park the kids can play in during the summer months, and a basketball court.

But you know what? The jungle gyms started to collect graffiti during the summer months. The feral teenagers started to colonize it, so that toddlers get to hear a barrage of f-bombs and the occasional fight. Trash started to accumulate, and the equipment started to get damaged. The city has done some work on keeping it fixed up, but what it can't do is make the people who are using it behave.

As to the commenter who mentioned a district of Paris with apartments with enclosed courtyards...I agree that is nice for urban living. I would point out that many/most(?) apartments in big cities offer this kind of courtyard.

It's certainly better to have an enclosed garden available to you and 30 other people (half of whom don't use it) compared to sharing central park or something.

But if that's better than sharing central park, perhaps it's better to have a yard all to your self and your chosen friends.

And I'm not sure about the whole 99% of the time it's unused. My daughter spends about 2-3 hours in the yard everyday, weather permitting. My wife or I can work in the garden/yard or work on a construction project, etc while she runs around up the hill, around the side of the house, etc. with no worries from me.

That would NEVER happen in a city park where you'd have to watch your kid like a hawk. There's probably also something to be said for personal play time, without a parent hovering over you. She can learn and explore on her own. And when we want to interact with others... well we just walk a block and a half up the road to the town park with all the other kids.

Am I a snob if I think my world is better than yours?

That should read...
"I would point out that many/most(?) apartments in European big cities offer this kind of courtyard."

I think virtually all of society would disagree with your analysis.

Offer them a nice 2500 sq ft house in the suburbs with a half acre partially wooded lot, or offer them a 800 sq foot apartment in the city and we all know what the majority of people would pick.

That's just silly.

Offer them a nice 1200 sq ft townhouse in a city--say Capitol Hill, or Brookland--or offer them a 2500 sq ft house in Manassas and there is absolutely no question what the majority of people would pick.

There's a reason that the house on Capitol Hill costs $500k and the house in Manassas costs $250k.

I think it's pretty clear that most American families just don't attach much value to living within walking distance of stores, restaurants, parks, etc. Far more important to them is the size and quality of their housing, the quality of the area's schools for their kids, and the comfort and convenience of being able to get around mostly by car, as opposed to public transportation. Hence the explosion of low-density car-oriented suburbs and the decline of "compact" transit-oriented urban areas. I don't expect this basic pattern to change even if gas prices rise further.

"Walkable communities" within or close to major cities appeal mostly to young childless professionals, who tend to grow out of them and move to the suburbs when they get married and have a family.

And yet, for high-income individuals with children, that's exactly the decision they make. Walkable communities are *more* expensive per square foot than sprawling communities. That's just a simple fact in every single real-estate market in the country.

The fact that many middle-income families are unable to swing the mortgage on a house in one of these desirable areas, and are forced by housing prices to settle for a house in some exurban cul-de-sac isn't proof of what "most American families" want.

You may as well argue that--in the college market--there are more Texas A&Ms than Harvards, therefore the "most Americans" want to send their kids to Texas A&M than Harvard.

ibc,
I get your point, but disagree with the way you arranged the terms. If I sold my house for 200k in the suburbs, what kind of house could I buy in the city? Or if I sold my 500k house in the city, what kind of house could I get in the suburbs?

I think most people would choose the suburbs most time. Maybe you disagree, we'll have to agree to disagree in that case. As long as no one is planning on forcing me to move to a big city, taxing me more because of my choice, etc I'm fine.

But strangely enough I tend to see policy implications from some people masked behind these discussion. Much in the same way as "save the planet" means I'm planning on charging you more for gas, water bottles, construction, food, etc. Thanks, but no thanks!

"And yet, for high-income individuals with children, that's exactly the decision they make. Walkable communities are *more* expensive per square foot than sprawling communities. That's just a simple fact in every single real-estate market in the country."


And there are very few children in those communities. Look at the demographics of places like Manhattan and San Franscisco. The old and the young and childless predominate. Even among the wealthy, for every wealthy family living in Manhattan raising their kids, there is another four or five families living out in Morristown or some other high end suburb doing the same.

There is some really stupid things being said on this thread about housing prices. The housing price is a product of both demand and supply. There is a small supply of homes in compact inner city areas. That means it takes less demand to drive the price up. You can go to the burbs and build endlessly and increase supply to meet demand. Further, many inner city areas enact inane zoning laws and rent contol that further reduce the supply of houses and drives up the price. The mere fact that one area is more expensive than another does not mean that there is greater demand for the higher priced area in general letalone among a particular demographic. To argue that the prices of homes being higher in inner city areas is the result of child rearing couples prefering the inner city is just nonsense.

Megan,

To have parks you have to have a functioning city government and law enforcement. DC has neither. When you open a park in DC the ferrel tennagers and bums show up and immediately ruin the place. You can have a park like Rock Creek because it is just too big for the bums and criminals to overrun. But small neighborhood parks inevitably turn into havens for bums and crime. When you wonder why DC doesn't have more neighborhood parks, you are really wondering why DC doesn't have a functioning government.

Megan:

"I'm arguing that DC should build some damn parks so that parents who want to raise children in the city have a shot at doing so. Why this provokes such a hostile reaction is sort of puzzling."

One of your edges in blogging is that you have a keen awareness and ability to point out how non-economic factors influence how people react to markets and how time and trust play such crucial roles in what type of arrangements arise from various sets of rules. In this case, you are missing something very important that is distorting all market choices.

DC can build beautiful parks and middle class families will still never move there. New York City has plenty of local parks but the only families in the dense parts of the city are super rich (the middle class does live in NYC, but in non-dense areas only (Staten Island, parts of Queens, parts of the Bronx)).

Why? Starting in the 1960s, American cities all chose to ignore crime and hamstring law enforcement (much of this was driven from national rules imposed by the Supreme Court). This, combined with the demographic change since the mid sixties made cities completely unlivable for families. You claim to have been middle class growing up (although this is a dubious claim from a woman who, as a girl, went to a private non-Catholic school in Manhattan). If you were middle class you can easily recognize that the upper west side is no longer even slightly middle class (unless you consider a mere big law partner middle class when compared to an MD of an investment bank). The number and size of parks hasn't changed since then.

These days, law enforcement has improved in effectiveness from the nadir of the 1970s but that improvement can reverse any day the elites choose to reverse it. Can't happen? Everyone knows better now? Let's say one day "racial profiling" is banned. Well, since some races are significantly more criminal, you'll wind up with arrest quotas for different races that are based on their proportion of the population. Why not? Obama has already made noises about the disparity in numbers of black men in prison versus white men.

The cities are a borrower who defaulted once before asking for an unsecured loan. Only people who can afford to insulate themselves from the default risk (the very rich, who buy isolation), people who don't really end up exposed (single people who can just avoid being out at night (unless they get shot like the DC blogger)) or people who have no choice (the working poor, who are victimized by crime as opposed to the criminal poor who have no specific occupation) are going to take them up on it.

One big problem with parks in DC comes back to the city's failure to develop adequate policing. It's hard to convince the public that these are safe spaces, or that playground equipment is a worthwhile investment if it's likely to soon be vandalized.

Steve Johnson,

Those are all excellent points. I find it difficult to beleive that any middle class live in Manhattan where last I looked a one bed room was going for a million plus. Further, if Megan actually knew people from the burbs and I suspect she doesn't, she would know that people who live out there loath the city. Many of them won't even drive in DC letalone live there. This is true of every other big city I have ever been in from Boston to Atlanta to Dallas.

I to have always wondered about Megan's claim to have grown up middle class. She probably does believe that she did. But that probably says more about her self awareness than it does her economic status. It is too bad Megan didn't get a fellowship in Kansas City or somewhere. It is hard to write about this country when the only places you have lived in New York and Washington.

Look at the demographics of places like Manhattan and San Franscisco. The old and the young and childless predominate.

Look at Capitol Hill in DC--tons of kids. Look at close-in, walkable urban areas like Arlington, or Bethesda, or Chevy Chase, Maryland. Again, tons of children.

The problem is that these areas are more expensive--so few can afford to live in them. Don't confuse that with the *desire* to live in them.

The answer is *more* development like this, not less.

I get your point, but disagree with the way you arranged the terms. If I sold my house for 200k in the suburbs, what kind of house could I buy in the city? Or if I sold my 500k house in the city, what kind of house could I get in the suburbs?

I think most people would choose the suburbs most time. Maybe you disagree, we'll have to agree to disagree in that case.

No I don't disagree--that much is obvious. But the question is not what will folks settle for because of financial constraints--the question is "What sort of development should we be encouraging."

Here's a thought-experiment: rather than thinking in dollar terms, imagine you win a contest, and the prize is a 2500 sq ft house and free private-school tuition for your children. My point was that, in that situation, the *vast* majority of Americans would choose to live in a community like Bethesda, Old Town Alexandria, or Capital Hill over Manassas or Dale City, VA.

That is just patently obvious, and reflected in current housing prices. The point that often gets missed is that walkable communities are expensive precisely because they are more rare.

Further, if Megan actually knew people from the burbs and I suspect she doesn't, she would know that people who live out there loath the city. Many of them won't even drive in DC letalone live there.

Yep, and most folks that are forced to eat at McDonalds (because of financial constraints) loathe "fancy-schmantzy" restaurants. There are folks who went to Salisbury State College and absolutely loathe the very idea of schools like Yale and Harvard. Usually it's a combination of ignorance and grievance.

I have tried three times now to post a comment linking to an article on middle-class housing and lifestyle choices, and every time it has gotten stuck in Megan's damn comment filter. Megan, please fix your filter! Your blog seems to be the only one on the Atlantic that has this problem.

ibc:
Unless I'm reading you wrong, you're saying that "loathing the city" arises from the same kind of class resentment and envy that leads people to claim loyalty to McDonald's over Four Seasons and State U. over Harvard.

Well, I can't speak for all of my fellow hayseeds, certainly, but this particular Harvard grad (who loves a good steak and pinot noir, by the way) loathes the city so very much that I took an approximate 40% pay cut to leave one (moved from the city to a small town in the mountains). Having taken that step, I then took the even-more-frightening leap of quitting my job, selling my home, and buying a house in the country -- 2000 miles away -- with no job, no prospects, and no contacts.

Because I loathe the city, and love solitude, that much.

Usually it's a combination of ignorance and grievance.

That's a charming way to describe people with different preferences than yours: they're stupid and jealous!

"Yep, and most folks that are forced to eat at McDonalds (because of financial constraints) loathe "fancy-schmantzy" restaurants. There are folks who went to Salisbury State College and absolutely loathe the very idea of schools like Yale and Harvard. Usually it's a combination of ignorance and grievance."

The people who whine and complain about the burbs yet don't live there always come back to being elitists. Who are you to say that the burbs are McDonalds and the center city Che Paul? There are a large number of people in this country who hate center cities, do not like living in close proxcimity to their neighbors and want nothing to do with the kind of "walkable development" you are so keen on. It is a free country and they have a right to their tastes without busybodies like you telling them how they should live and how their tastes are the results of ignorance and grievence rather than genuine preferences.

I will give you credit though. At least you are an honest insufferable snob.

This particular Harvard grad (who loves a good steak and pinot noir, by the way) loathes the city so very much that I took an approximate 40% pay cut to leave one (moved from the city to a small town in the mountains) [...] Because I loathe the city, and love solitude, that much.

Sounds nice! Just got back from Salida, CO visiting family. My wife and I have talked about retiring there once our daughter is grown.

Not sure how your experience applies to the argument at hand (i.e. urban vs exurban development), though.

IBC,

It is interesting that you consider Bethesda to be center city. I live there and consider it to be totally suburban. It is an old suburb and lots of new ones have since been built further out, but it is a suburb. Further, the layout of the houses are very suburban. What Bethesda does have is narrower streets and tall trees. Those things make it much more livable than newer suburbs where all of the streets are wide enough for two fire trucks to pass by at full speed and every tree has been cut down.

The people who whine and complain about the burbs yet don't live there always come back to being elitists. Who are you to say that the burbs are McDonalds and the center city Che Paul? There are a large number of people in this country who hate center cities, do not like living in close proxcimity to their neighbors and want nothing to do with the kind of "walkable development" you are so keen on. It is a free country and they have a right to their tastes without busybodies like you telling them how they should live and how their tastes are the results of ignorance and grievence rather than genuine preferences.

Hey! Thanks for the excellent example of the "culture of grievance" I was referring to. Sheesh, you guys have a persecution complex as rich as the Serbs, but with less rationale!

It's not enough for y'all to just live your life, you need affirmation from everyone else that your way is the American Way. So listen up, no one's telling you how to live your life--we're just pointing out the obvious fact that most Americans (most humans, actually) don't like exurban sprawl.

That's as measured in US dollars; not as measured by your gut feeling of rectitude.

That's a charming way to describe people with different preferences than yours: they're stupid and jealous!

I guess if one designs one's life around the acquisitive snob-appeal Olympiad, it would only follow that refuseniks uninterested in competing would be perceived as potential competitors who should be disqualified for not playing by the rules.

Hey, whatever floats your boat.

"So listen up, no one's telling you how to live your life--we're just pointing out the obvious fact that most Americans (most humans, actually) don't like exurban sprawl."

Really? I guess all of it got built by aliens then. Most people I know who live in the exurban sprawl like it and have no desire to live any closer to the city. Frankly, I think they are nuts. I would rather live in the city. Bethesda is too far out for me. But they think I am nuts as well. It is funny you think I have a sense of grievence. I like the city as much as anyone. But, I understand that a lot of people don't look at it that way and have no problem with it. When I see exurban sprawl, I see people living as they wish. Wouldn't want to live there myself. I have but would prefer not to. But don't have a problem with the people who do and am not about to preach to them about how they need to live any different. It is called tolerance. You should try it sometime.

It is interesting that you consider Bethesda to be center city. I live there and consider it to be totally suburban.

Well, just a minor correction: I never used the term "center city". We were talking about "walkability". Bethesda proper (i.e. radiating outward from the Wisconsin/East-West Hwy intersection) is *very* walkable. Also, by most measures, very urban.

Just curious: what makes you consider it to be "totally suburban"? The fact that it's in Maryland? Has good schools? Hasn't been the set of a Woody Allen movie?

Heck, the center of Bethesda gets a 98/100 on walkscore.com...

So listen up, no one's telling you how to live your life--we're just pointing out the obvious fact that most Americans (most humans, actually) don't like exurban sprawl.

Perfect example of typical big gummint busy-bodyism in the making.

"I really don't care how other people live. But I do find their lifestyle choices so aesthetically offensive that will strive to see it banned."

[I] don't have a problem with the people who [live in the burbs] and am not about to preach to them about how they need to live any different. It is called tolerance. You should try it sometime.

One more time: not preaching anything. Just pointing out that the "people love sprawl" camp needs to provide some support for that argument other than "walkable communities are expensive", and "exurban sprawl is dirt-cheap".

Once again, that's an argument in favor of building more walkable communities, not against it.

As far as the charge of elitism: I'm not trying to win an election, so I have the luxury of pointing out the manifestly obvious without single-mindedly focusing on folks' delicate sensibilities.

Perfect example of typical big gummint busy-bodyism in the making.

Not only that, but the "Big Gummit Busy Bodies [tm]" are gonna abduct our Snowflake Babies and force 'em to get gay-married to secret Muslims!

"So listen up, no one's telling you how to live your life--we're just pointing out the obvious fact that most Americans (most humans, actually) don't like exurban sprawl."

Really? I guess all of it got built by aliens then. Most people I know who live in the exurban sprawl like it and have no desire to live any closer to the city. Frankly, I think they are nuts. I would rather live in the city. Bethesda is too far out for me. But they think I am nuts as well. It is funny you think I have a sense of grievence. I like the city as much as anyone. But, I understand that a lot of people don't look at it that way and have no problem with it. When I see exurban sprawl, I see people living as they wish. Wouldn't want to live there myself. I have but would prefer not to. But don't have a problem with the people who do and am not about to preach to them about how they need to live any different. It is called tolerance. You should try it sometime.

ibc,

One more time: not preaching anything. Just pointing out that the "people love sprawl" camp needs to provide some support for that argument other than "walkable communities are expensive", and "exurban sprawl is dirt-cheap".

50+ years of declining cities and growing suburbs and exurbs. Americans have been voting for suburbs-plus-cars over cities-plus-transit with their feet, their pocketbooks and at the ballot box for decades. Absent some truly drastic changes in basic lifestyle preferences or a catastrophic increase in energy prices, this isn't likely to change.

And "people love sprawl" misconstrues the argument anyway. It's not that people love sprawl in itself. But, rather, that sprawl is the inevitable consequence of the things people do love--big houses with yards and the comfort, convenience and flexibility of a car-oriented transportation system (as opposed to a transit-oriented one).

Megan should check out Capitol Hill sometime - Lincoln, Garfield, Stanton, Folger are all decent-sized parks in that neighborhood that I see people of all ages use all of the time. When I bought my house I stuck close to Cap Hill rather than living in NW like most young professionals just because it is a walkable neighborhood with green space. NW pretty much lacks that - and as the Petworth commenter says, adding new parks is no good if the people in the neighborhood don't value them. And unfortunately, a huge percentage of this city's population are trashy people that think nothing of littering all over the place and treating people and public spaces with disrespect.

50+ years of declining cities and growing suburbs and exurbs.

In that case, if the twentieth century has shown us anything, it's that humans love war and genocide. 'cause we've certainly had a lot of that, too.

Anyway, time will tell. My guess is that the housing prices in walkable communities and along transit lines will continue to hold, the prices in the outer burbs will continue to fall, and that the current trend of the urban poor being displaced from the cities and into the suburbs will continue apace and exacerbate that trend.

Two (married, with children) economists are walking down the street when one says "You know, I've always wanted to live in a walkable, urban neighborhood".

"Obviously not", says the other.

Two (married, with children) economists are walking down the street when one says "You know, I've always wanted to live in a walkable, urban neighborhood".

"Obviously not", says the other.

That's a sad story. Too bad they didn't buy 6-7 years ago. :)

My guess is that the housing prices in walkable communities and along transit lines will continue to hold, the prices in the outer burbs will continue to fall,

Then housing in the outer burbs will become even more attractive and housing in "walkable communities" even less. Higher prices tend to reduce demand. Lower prices tend to increase it.

Higher prices tend to reduce demand. Lower prices tend to increase it.

But that just begs the question. Your comment is true if we assume all other things are equal, which is exactly what we're debating.

By your logic, we should see a reduction in demand for McDonalds cheeseburgers, because a 5 lb bag of rice and dried beans is comparatively cheaper.

Also, the availability of the Kia Rio should drive the Honda Accord off the market. After all, you can get it for half as much.

It is--as our President is fond of saying--Economics 101.

My guess is that the housing prices in walkable communities and along transit lines will continue to hold, the prices in the outer burbs will continue to fall, and that the current trend of the urban poor being displaced from the cities and into the suburbs will continue apace and exacerbate that trend.

The first part is probably true. The latter part is more likely a toss-up, depending on the fate of the city surrounded by the suburban development.

Wonder if anyone has applied the von Thünen model to any of this? It seems that old Hannes had some early insights.

There is a hidden tax on residents of high density areas - higher prices at stores within walking distance. The market size for small stores whose customers are all pedestrians is too small to compete with the prices of a WalMart or large supermarket. Thus the residents in high density low income urban areas pay higher prices for groceries than I do. There is no solution to this except increasing the size of the stores customer base - people with transportation and parking.

50+ years of declining cities and growing suburbs and exurbs. Americans have been voting for suburbs-plus-cars over cities-plus-transit with their feet, their pocketbooks and at the ballot box for decades.

In fairness, I think the walkability/yard size aspect of this comes in at around #28 on the big list of things that determines whether you move into or out of a city. (Much higher: schools, crime, cost - which is influenced by factors other than strict demand, such as zoning-induced scarcity, etc etc.)

I've been lucky: DC has turned around from decades of decline, and has been rapidly improving as a city for at least a decade now; it's popularity as a destination for businesses and home ownership has increased by leaps and bounds, and I've enjoyed the results tremendously. Trends, even long ones, need not be permanent if there are fundamental problems that can be addressed.

Thus the residents in high density low income urban areas pay higher prices for groceries than I do.

This very important qualifier should tell you that the higher prices are not structural in nature, but rather a pricing strategy.

But that just begs the question. Your comment is true if we assume all other things are equal, which is exactly what we're debating.

All else equal, I'll take the suburban/exurban thing. Some of my hobbies variously involve audio, power tools, and automechanic work, and same for the neighbors. A garage, a driveway, and a comfortable distance to the next house prevent all of that from turning into a zoning fight with 1930s overtones.

" ... I'm arguing that DC should build some damn parks so that parents who want to raise children in the city have a shot at doing so. Why this provokes such a hostile reaction is sort of puzzling. ..."

Megan: That's like arguing that if they installed some sprinklers in the 8th circle of Hell, it wouldn't be that much worse than the 7th.

Why would anybody -- if they had a choice -- want to raise their children in *any* urban cesspool?

I live about 5 miles outside the city limits of Bozeman, Montana (population ~ 30,000) which has a WalMart, a Target, Staples and Office Depot, 5 supermarkets, a Lowes and a Home Depot, and a State University. There are several thousand square miles of National Forest land within a half-hour drive in any direction.

I would not take my children to New York or Washington, or any other big city, for a million dollars per year.

Dude, talk about elitism! Preferences vary. Many people I know do want to raise kids in the city, but can't because the school and park situation is atrocious. Despite having spent several summers on a ranch in Wyoming, I'm pretty sure I would go crazy living there. Nonetheless, I'm well aware--and delighted--that many people do.

"I would not take my children to New York or Washington, or any other big city, for a million dollars per year."

Dude, talk about elitism!

No, Megan. You've got it all wrong. If you read David Brooks, you'd know that only the decadent coastal dwellers can be called elitist. A True American would never, ever expose his children to something as horrible as a city, either domestically or (god forbid) in some foreign land.

Thank goodness his children will be spared the opportunity to participate in the Smithsonian's "Resident Associate" children's programs, or take classes at the Folger Theater, or any of the innumerable other opportunities you'd get in the godless megalopolis.

Well, at least until they graduate from college and run screaming for some urban area. Hopefully they'll write.

I would not take my children to New York or Washington, or any other big city, for a million dollars per year.

Fine, I'll cancel the fundraising drive :-(

Thus the residents in high density low income urban areas pay higher prices for groceries than I do.

This very important qualifier should tell you that the higher prices are not structural in nature, but rather a pricing strategy.

See also von Thünen. Rents in urban areas are higher, partly bid up by general property price differentials. Then you've got smaller store sizes and the decreased economies of scale exacerbated by limited parking. Next come the added price pressures caused by zoning restrictions, other urban-specific construction and land use regulations, higher urban property and sales tax rates.

A True American would never, ever expose his children to something as horrible as a city, either domestically or (god forbid) in some foreign land.

Har, har!

"Whudja git, Cletis?"

"I bagged me a straw man!"

ibc,

By your logic, we should see a reduction in demand for McDonalds cheeseburgers, because a 5 lb bag of rice and dried beans is comparatively cheaper.

I don't think you understand "my logic." We should expect to see a reduction in demand for McDonalds cheeseburgers relative to demand for rice and beans if the price of cheeseburgers increases relative to the price of rice and beans. That's an oversimplification, because of complications like demand elasticity, but in general a decrease in price produces an increase in demand, and vice versa.

Demand for exurban housing has declined substantially over the past couple of years because of the double whammy of the real estate bubble bursting and a significant increase in gas prices. But falling prices obviously act to counter this trend. When prices have fallen back to the long-term equilibrium, or perhaps even before that point, we should expect demand to start growing again.

The only thing that would be likely to stop (let alone reverse) the long-term trend towards sprawl and suburbanization is a large and permanent increase in energy costs, and specifically in the cost of driving. This does not seem very likely to happen. Given a choice between switching to a more fuel-efficient car or truck, and radically changing your whole housing-and-transportation lifestyle, I don't think many people are going to choose the latter.

MarkG wrote:

"I bagged me a straw man!"

Sorry, you must've missed the OP, who wrote:

"I would not take my children to New York or Washington, or any other big city, for a million dollars per year."

Whether the original poster is or isn't literally or figuratively made of straw, you'll have to take up with him.

Damned Internet anonymity...

Whether the original poster is or isn't literally or figuratively made of straw, you'll have to take up with him.

Hey, I can take it as I dish it out: in good fun. Then again, I was perhaps damaged in my childhood by being taken to "big cities" with considerably less remuneration.

But when in doubt, me and Yokel and Elmo've got your citified backs when the chips are down. ;-)

"Hey! Thanks for the excellent example of the "culture of grievance" I was referring to. Sheesh, you guys have a persecution complex as rich as the Serbs, but with less rationale!"

Is this comment section now a zone for freely expressing hate speech against specific ethnic groups?

"Thank goodness his children will be spared the opportunity to participate in the Smithsonian's "Resident Associate" children's programs, or take classes at the Folger Theater, or any of the innumerable other opportunities you'd get in the godless megalopolis."

I was visiting a family in DC last week. The oldest child was participating in an excellent National Zoo summer program and was having the time of his life. On the other hand, it was really expensive, and both during the school year the mom was spending much of her time driving between their gentrifying neighborhood and the older kid's public school in NW. The family does pretty well, but there are obviously trade-offs. Our family moved from DC to a college town in Texas last year. In Texas, we have a smaller, but excellent zoo and a very fine children's museum, and both run lots of children's programs, and you can get from one end of town to the other in 20 minutes, no matter what. Meanwhile, when we lived in DC, there were many friends that we would have loved to see more of, but the distances were so brutal that we barely ever saw them. In some ways, DC was like being invited to a wonderful banquet, and then not being allowed to eat.

Wait, is that "paul Milenkovic" post some kind of jokey meta-comment? Because he's objecting to the suggestion that Serbs have a persecution complex ... by complaining about perceived persecution.

I can't believe no one has mentioned the biggest reason why I, who grew up in Fairfax County, the famously affluent uber-suburb outside of DC, will never, ever, in a million years live in one again. (As an adult I have lived 3 years in Austin, 9 years in New York City, and I'm now getting my MD in Buffalo.) That reason is INTOLERANCE! I am a gay man in my thirties, but I still feel fear when I walk around in suburbs and definitely rural areas of America. Even though it's 2008, cities are the only places in the US where you can introduce to a new acquaintance, or God knows, employer, and blandly say "My boyfriend did this or that" and not fear for repercussions. But thatr's just mer: one of those "liberal elitists" with a distaste for being beaten spit on, and ridiculed.

Re: Given a choice between switching to a more fuel-efficient car or truck, and radically changing your whole housing-and-transportation lifestyle, I don't think many people are going to choose the latter.

I think we will see plenty of people doing both. People with children will of course tend to go for good schools, and that usually means suburbs. But childless people (and there are a lot of us) may choose to live closer to where they work. That doesn't necessarily mean inner cities (a fallacy assumed by both sides in this argument), and it doesn't mean walking distance either, since a lot of workplaces are found in the suburbs too. But I do think you underestimate the trend in that direction. Moreover, living closer to work brings a powerful non-economic benefit: it gives you more time.

Here's a thought-experiment: rather than thinking in dollar terms, imagine you win a contest, and the prize is a 2500 sq ft house and free private-school tuition for your children. My point was that, in that situation, the *vast* majority of Americans would choose to live in a community like Bethesda, Old Town Alexandria, or Capital Hill over Manassas or Dale City, VA.

That is just patently obvious,

...if you grew up in Belgium, maybe. Nobody who has actually met an American could possibly believe this. Of course there are Americans who love living in the city. They're just a minority of Americans, and a small minority of Americans with children.

(Of course, I'd take the city home too in the contest hypothetical you provide -- but only so I could sell it and move to the suburbs and get a much nicer home for that price.)

and reflected in current housing prices. The point that often gets missed is that walkable communities are expensive precisely because they are more rare.
You do realize that the second claim undermines the first, right? "Current housing prices" reflect the rarity, not demand.

Moreover, living closer to work brings a powerful non-economic benefit: it gives you more time.

Right, but as population increases, congestion increases, which means that in order to get that powerful non-economic benefit (i.e. "time"), you have to have somewhat greater density. That doesn't have to mean concrete canyons, but it does mean smaller houses, smaller yards, etc... There's just no way around it. A necessary byproduct of that growth is greater walkability...

Obviously that's not going to be the case in regions where population is quite low, but that's beside the point of the discussion at hand.

Speaking of straw-men, I think it's kind of amusing that commenters keep bringing up the "inner-city," then arguing against it. Aside from John, and JonF, no one has mentioned the inner city model as some kind of ideal. We're basically talking about walkable medium-density urban areas like Capital Hill, downtown Bethesda, Old Town Alexandria, or if you're from the left-coast, Santa Monica, etc...

Moderately dense communities with retail within walking distance are the most desirable real-estate markets in the country--based on what people are willing to pay per square foot. That point is completely beyond debate.

[Cue comments on how Poster X HATES Santa Monica, or is restoring a B-52 in his garage in 3...2...1...]

You do realize that the second claim undermines the first, right? "Curren