« We're in your browser, watching your gender | Main | Crazy!=criminal »

The measure of faith

07 Aug 2008 01:07 pm

Ross wonders why evangelicals are more likely to be pro-life than Catholics, even though the Catholic Church is in many ways the one with the harder line on reproductive issues.

describing oneself as an "evangelical" tends to be a proxy for religious intensity in a way that describing oneself as a Catholic isn't. Many evangelical churches subsist within mainline denominations, attracting a self-selected pool of the denomination's most devout churchgoers; many others, especially in the megachurch sector, rely heavily on spiritual seekers looking for a more intense experience than their mainline upbringing (or Catholic upbringing, more often) provided. If you're a member of an evangelical church, chances are your congregation demands more from you - and you demand more from your congregation - than even the minority of Catholics who fulfill their Sunday obligation every week, let alone the lukewarm, once-a-month variety. And if you're born and raised evangelical, you're getting a very different experience of religion than the typical cradle Catholic, since evangelical youth ministries tend to emphasize the necessity for personal conversion - of making an active choice for Jesus, and being "born again" - much more heavily than your average Catholic confirmation class. American Evangelicalism is thus at a deep level a religion of converts and enthusiasts in a way that American Catholicism - which of course includes its share of converts and enthusiasts - simply isn't. And it's hardly surprising that this difference would manifest itself in polling on abortion and related matters, since as a general rule (with, of course, myriad exceptions), the more seriously a given Christian takes their faith, the more likely they are to come around to some variant on the pro-life position.

As an empirical matter, I'm sure that last sentence is true, though logically I'm not quite sure why that should be the case--abortion isn't really much taken up by the Bible, and there's no particular reason that a lack of religious belief should cause one to set the emergence of personhood at birth. 

On the larger question, I think Ross is on the right track, but I might state it slightly differently:  evangelicalism is self-selecting in a way that Catholicism isn't.  Catholicism is as often a proxy for ethnicity as it is for belief; I observe Lent not because I believe in the risen Christ, but because my ancestors have done so for a couple of thousand years.  Not that I self-identify as Catholic, but I know a lot of people who think of themselves that way even though their main connection to the Church is watching the occasional Hail Mary pass.

Evangelicals who stop believing in God, or biblical literalism, don't continue to call themselves evangelicals.  The religion itself encourages forum shopping.  Lukewarm Catholics, on the other hand, tend to stay put.


Comments (79)

Ross isn't anti-choice because he's a Catholic. He's anti-choice because he's a movement conservative and one of the most dogmatically loyal members of that sad, failed "vanguard."

"Catholicism is as often a proxy for ethnicity as it is for belief; I observe Lent not because I believe in the risen Christ, but because my ancestors have done so for a couple of thousand years."

I guess that Catholicism is as often a proxy for ethnicity as it is for belief, because I suspect that you aren't descended from any of the 12 apostles. And, of course, the forty days of Lent were probably not observed as they are today until the 4th century AD, and one could argue that the "Catholic Church" didn't really come into existence until the Great Schism of 1054, but, hey, this is tradition, so let's not sweat the details.

I certainly know a lot of C&E Catholics. My wife and all of my in-laws are Catholic. Almost none of them buy into the Church's teaching on birth control and some of them are regular church goers some are not. But none of them observe Lent but also claim not to believe in the Risen Christ. I am sorry Megan but you are not Catholic. For you to claim to be one merely because your forgo chocolate for a couple of months in the spring and attended church when you were a child but don't now believe in the most basic tenants of the faith is really insulting to Catholics. Being a Catholic does mean something more than just haven been raised around it. There are lots of former Catholics. Lots of people who leave the church. Hell, I am a Protestant so it is not like I can blame them. But to claim to be a Catholic while renouncing the basic tenants Christianity is really gross and offensive. You don't eat meat either; I guess that means you can claim to be a Hindu to.

I take that back Megan. I missed the part where you said you don't self identify as a Catholic. Your friends who do but are not Christians are gross and offensive. Not you.

"As an empirical matter, I'm sure that last sentence is true, though logically I'm not quite sure why that should be the case--abortion isn't really much taken up by the Bible..."

People always mention that the Bible doesn't mention anything about abortion and conclude that it must not have informed early Christian belief, so people think Christian religious opposition to abortion must be new or politicized (coming from "outside" the religion). Interestingly, though, a Christian document (the Didache) from the time of the apostles that actually predates the New Testament--according to the Jewish Encyclopedia, it's an even earlier Jewish document that was expanded and Christianized by the apostles--specifically condemns abortion. Clearly abortion opposition is one of the earliest tenets of Christian belief, so it's not really surprising that the more informed a Christian is about their faith they would become more pro-life, regardless of whether or not it's in the Bible. As much as certain Christians (evangelicals in particular) like to pretend their faith informed exclusively by the Bible, non-Christians are a little too quick to conclude that any non-biblical belief must be a non-binding belief, which isn't quite the same thing.

I mention all of this as an aside, really--obviously most evangelical opposition to abortion probably wasn't decided with the Didache in mind, and even many Christians who are familiar with the document don't practice other things it proscribes, why should they agree with the injunction against abortion? I just find it interesting the way Christians and non-Christians alike jump to whether or not something's "in the Bible" in order to decide whether it should influence belief.

Sorry to be longwinded and kind of vere slightly off topic... I have to say Megan's analysis of evangelicalism being more self-selective than Catholicism is spot on, by the way.

I would bet that the Bible speaks indirectly of people being formed and known by God from the womb, but I could be guessing. Evangelicals also just make the leap that there are two living creatures (in pregnancy) and killing any living thing is wrong... in terms of New Testament Christian scriptures which are the standard by which Christians are supposed to live. (Even our law sometimes makes this logical leap too, so that if you kill a pregnant woman, depending on jurisdiction, you can end up with more than one murder charge).

In most instances you will find an evangelical putting more effort into following, or attempting to follow (with failure of course) the scriptures. They read their Bibles and pray more, which thus exposes them to greater conflicts between what Christianity expresses and what the world offers.

Some of the Catholics I have known put greater weight on the "culturual" or symbolic aspects of Christianity--cross wearing, getting the kids to various Catholic classes, Lent--than the actual practice of Christianity or belief in the central figure that makes the symbolism meaningful.

Evangelicals find the "name" meaningless if you don't believe. It's the equivalent of putting a "Darwin Fish" on the back of your car and then saying, "Oh, I don't believe in anything Darwin proposed, I just like the cute fish with legs and my dad was a big science guy." Ah... makes sense...uh huh.

Megan "I'm not quite sure why that should be the case--abortion isn't really much taken up by the Bible"

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."

Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder"

Megan has it right: Catholicism is the public school of Christianity in that it takes everybody. I tend to see that as a strength - Christ spent most of his time with uncommitted people and it makes sense that His Church would do the same.

I think it does make logical sense that Christians are more pro-life as they are more committed to Christianity. The default position for most of human history has been to allow contraception, abortion, and infanticide. Christianity opposed all three of these practices from its earliest days, but they don't come naturally.

Nessuno:
Psalm 137:9 "Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." (KJV)

Look, I can post silly quotations too!

I still find it bizare that anyone would observe Lent but not believe in Christ. You have heard of nihlism without the abysss. Megan seems to have athiesm without the fun.

And quoting Old Testament scripture doesn't get you very far when you consider the amount of support the pro-choice movement has from people who are Jewish. Just like with Catholics, there's obviously a large amount of Jewish-as-ethnicity.

Josh, you're probably not interested in understanding much, but rather you seem to prefer destroying another's faith.

If you are interested there is context on that verse, which speaks volumes about the sad state of affairs that has always existed between man. The proceeding verse to the one you quote talks about Israel visiting the exact same punishment upon Babylon that Babylon did on Israel. ie hebrew children having their heads bashed in by Babylonian soliders.

You can only imagine the rage and anger of someone who just watched a soldier, and likely a parent themself, smash a childs head in. "How would you like it if this were your child?"

Eye for an eye and the law of Moses. That being said, many (most?) Christians believe Christ's coming fulfilled the law of Moses and Christians were no longer required to live the preceise law of Moses, but rather a higher law, one followed in accordance with the spirit that Christ promised his followers would be there to guide them.

That last point directly ties into the topic at hand. Followers of Christ rely on the spirit, in addition to the words of Christ. Which is why you naturally have most Christians opposing abortion.

"In most instances you will find an evangelical putting more effort into following, or attempting to follow (with failure of course) the scriptures. They read their Bibles and pray more, which thus exposes them to greater conflicts between what Christianity expresses and what the world offers.

I think this paragraph was worded carefully enough to avoid generalizing Catholicism too much--"in most instances" thankfully narrows the application of the idea--but I still have to take some issue with the idea that Protestants "read their Bibles and pray more".

Many Protestants do actually read their Bibles more, but in my experience it tends procure shallow interpretations. Many non-Catholic Christians are a little too eager to see the Bible as God's Word *and nothing else*, so they ignore the historical and cultural contexts of the documents in the Bible. Often, they ignore the actual context even of specific verses. It's kind of like how some students read their textbooks to pull out relevant passages--"Oh, William the Conqueror, Hastings, 1066"--but aren't concerned with the larger historical setting because "that's not going to be on the test". I sometimes think a lot of Protestants totally forget that the verse distinctions weren't part of the original... it's not like Paul was thinking: "Oh, from this word to that period is going to be verse 23, so I better make it a good one! I hope it will be useful for summarizing a complicated issue into an easily quotable catch-all explanation."

And I don't think it's the case that Protestants "pray more" at all. It's funny to me how there seems to be a fundamentally different interpretation of the role of prayer between Protestants and Catholics. Protestant prayer is much more about benediction and supplication--praising God and asking for his favor--while Catholic prayer is much more about contemplation and adoration--"getting to know" God and prostrating (metaphorically) oneself before his majesty. In part I think this is because benediction and supplication are considered appropriate for the saints in the Catholic tradition, praising them for their example and asking for them to intercede on our behalf before God. But I also think it's the result of how prayer is exercised. Catholic prayer is much more disciplined and focused and rigid, hence things like the Rosary and similar devotions. Protestant prayer is much more spontaneous and individualized. Too many people see the latter method as more "genuine"--but for me, it's not only distracting, it's also theatrical and sermonizing. When I pray, I don't want another person's spontaneous whims to be offered up as my prayer to God. Catholics are free to pray that way in private, and most do, but public prayer for Catholics is more restrictive which is why I think a lot of Protestants are perceived as "praying more", because they do it more publicly and without much discretion.

Josh,

I like Psalm 137 - mainly because it speaks to facing things that are difficult:

If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.

If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy.

And it is where Faulkner got the title of a great book.

The passage you quoted was not about infanticide per se, definitely not your own children.

O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Also, you'll find that the words of God or Jesus are where the teachings are, not in the Psalms or other passages.

"I am sorry Megan but you are not Catholic. For you to claim to be one merely because your forgo chocolate for a couple of months in the spring and attended church when you were a child but don't now believe in the most basic tenants of the faith is really insulting to Catholics."


wow, I think this is really off (as an ardent Catholic myself...and generally it's really hard to insult Catholics about their faith)

AND MEGAN HAS IT ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. Belief is generally less important to Catholics than Protestants. Thomist theology (still the theology of the Church) certainly implies that practice comes before belief.

Sam, Skullberg:

Thank-you for explaining the context and meaning of the verse I quoted. You've established my point much better than I did: quoting isolated bible verses as if it settles an argument is very silly. Nessuno's mention Jeremiah 1:5 & Exodus 20:13 might be interesting, but only with supporting argument. By themselves those verses are not exactly specific as to the big G's opinion on, say, the morning after pill. Hermeneutics is critically important.

To treat the matter more seriously, I would counter that, per the arguments in Roderick Long's Abortion, Abandonment, and Positive Rights:
The Limits of Compulsory Altruism
, those verses are not relevant to the matter of abortion unless one intends to claim that Exodus 20:13 requires a commitment to absolute pacifism (a claim to which I am open, but one that is rarely made).

I think one reason for the anti-abortion gap is a cultural difference between Evangelicals and Catholics, at least in the U.S.

The Catholic Church seems to produce fewer people that crave being told what to think and that blindly follow authority. Partly this is a function of not emphasizing the Bible. Catholics that do not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible can still feel comfortable being members of a church. Catholicism allows for, or at least tolerates, gray areas in morality and a balancing. I assume this is linked to how closely the Catholic Church is linked to ethnic groups, at least in the U.S. A church that wants its younger generation to feel comfortable and stay in the church needs to informally accommodate them.

Evangelical churches weed out people that question authority by making parishioners that do not believe the Bible is inerrant uncomfortable. This results in a membership that does not see gray as well and is drawn to having an all-powerful authority in charge of their lives.

Evangelicals prefer black and white and are willing to give up autonomy to have clear answers. Pastors tell their parishioners their way is the one, true path to God and salvation. They also tell Evangelicals that they must fight the culture war and abortion is part of it. Evangelical churches have a higher percentage of people that are willing to be led as well and use abortion as an issue to keep their congregations energized and increase their sense of community and uniqueness.

"Also, you'll find that the words of God or Jesus are where the teachings are, not in the Psalms or other passages."

I'm confused in this thread...isn't Psalms the words of God?

freddiemac writes: "I'm confused in this thread...isn't Psalms the words of God?"

No, actually. Like everything else in the bible, they're the words of long dead Hebrews. (With perhaps a long dead Greek or two tossed in for laughs.)

Catholicism allows for, or at least tolerates, gray areas in morality and a balancing.

This claim is pretty laughable with respect to abortion. There is little or no ambiguity with respect to Catholic teaching on abortion. Pro-choice Catholics aren't occupying a "gray area" that is "tolerated" by the Church. They are simply rejecting or ignoring the clear teaching of the Church that abortion is profoundly immoral and unjust and should be a crime.

Also, you'll find that the words of God or Jesus are where the teachings are, not in the Psalms or other passages.

Then considering all the appalling things that God and Jesus are quoted as saying and believing and doing in the Bible, it's not surprising that so many of those teachings are rejected by so many people who self-identify as Catholics (or Christians of some other kind).

freddiemac,

Despite the trolling by ML+J, the Psalms are religious songs written down sometime around 6-7th century. They contain wisdom but are not the teachings of God or Christ. The New Testament is full of Epistles Paul wrote to the Corinthians, Galatians, Romans and others, those are letters from and Apostle to believers.

Throughout the Bible you have passages like "And the LORD said..." and "And Jesus said..." - those are the words of God and Jesus.

I hope that clears it up for you.

Seth,

Couldn't agree more! For long I've been trying to explain the same to several people.

the appalling things that God and Jesus are quoted as saying and believing and doing in the Bible

Such as? Specifically, anything from the New Testament?

Skullberg writes: "Despite the trolling by ML+J, the Psalms are religious songs written down sometime around 6-7th century. "

It's now trolling to point out that the bible was written by Hebrews and not by some sky fairy? Seriously?

Are you really that stupid or do you just refer to anyone who disagrees with you as a troll?

Skullberg quotes and challenges: " the appalling things that God and Jesus are quoted as saying and believing and doing in the Bible

Such as? Specifically, anything from the New Testament?"

Try this on for size, Skully:

"And shall cast them into a FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 13:42. Here Jesus is scaring the kiddies and dummies with the threat of eternal torture, the most disgusting idea ever conceived by the human mind.

But there I go, "trolling" again.

Sheesh.

I can hardly wait for Skully's spirited defense of eternal torture.

ML+J,

1) You are a troll - you post purely to raise ire and distract.

2) No one claims the Bible magically appeared fully written, but that part of it was written in pieces over time by many authors believed to be divinely inspired and that other parts are what I said - songs and letters and such. Revelations was written by a questionably mad man detailing his visions.

3) See #1 again, since I assume you forgot while reading #2.

Mixner,

I understand that the Catholic Church allows no ambiguity when it comes to abortion. However, the Catholic Church does allow for gray areas and balancing in other areas - the concept of "just wars", for example.

U.S. Catholics also seem to be perfectly willing to ignore the Church's teachings in areas of birth control and artificial insemination. As the post points out, a significant number of Catholics also do not follow the teachings surrounding abortion.

Some Catholics disagree with some of the teachings of their church, but most of their fellow Catholics who follow the Church's teaching seem willing to tolerate them, which is a significant difference between Catholics and Evangelicals.

Skullberg replies: "You are a troll - you post purely to raise ire and distract."

No, I post to express my opinions, which seem to annoy people who are always on the lookout for something to piss them off. I also post to amuse myself and likeminded freethinkers, and I have plenty of evidence that says I've been successful at that. Raising the blood pressure of society's dregs (Cheneyites, Sailerites, and other movement conservatives) is just a very attractive bonus.

"No one claims the Bible magically appeared fully written"

You'd be surprised how many times I've seen fundies make just that claim.

"but that part of it was written in pieces over time by many authors believed to be divinely inspired and that other parts are what I said - songs and letters and such. Revelations was written by a questionably mad man detailing his visions."

In other words, it was written by long-dead Hebrews. Which is what I said. Does agreeing with me make YOU a troll?

ML+J,

The presence of Hell (and by extension Souls and Heaven) is the 'apalling' thing Jesus believed in? That he told people about it, in order to prevent it from being their fate is the 'apalling' thing he did?

You're right, I've never seen any mention of long running punishment for unethical behavior in any other history lesson.

Skullberg does not disappoint: "The presence of Hell (and by extension Souls and Heaven) is the 'apalling' thing Jesus believed in? That he told people about it, in order to prevent it from being their fate is the 'apalling' thing he did?

You're right, I've never seen any mention of long running punishment for unethical behavior in any other history lesson."

"Long running punishment for unethical behavior" is a Cheneyesque euphemism for "eternal torture"! Well done, sir, well done! You can fill in for Dana Perino anytime with mega-euphemism skills like that!

Being tortured eternally for stealing a bag of Fritos and nailing cheerleaders or going to the wrong fairy-rally on Sunday and so forth may not seem especially heinous to moral cripples, but it seems harsh to those of us in the reality-based community. Appalling, even.

You'd be surprised how many times I've seen fundies make just that claim.

But you see... I never made that claim, nor did anyone in these comments. You decided to post a snarky response to a legitimate point because some mythical third party at some point said something different (which I don't trust you on anyway).

That is what trolls do.

ML+J,

We'll leave it at that - it's not worth discussing this - as neither of us will be swayed either way. I'll believe you're a moral cripple, you'll beleive I'm a moral cripple and we'll both be worse for it.

Skullberg quotes and replies: " You'd be surprised how many times I've seen fundies make just that claim.

But you see... I never made that claim, nor did anyone in these comments. You decided to post a snarky response to a legitimate point because some mythical third party at some point said something different (which I don't trust you on anyway).

That is what trolls do."

You made the assertion that "nobody claims" and I countered it, Skully. It's not my fault that you didn't qualify your original broad statement in any way.

"We'll leave it at that - it's not worth discussing this - as neither of us will be swayed either way. I'll believe you're a moral cripple, you'll beleive I'm a moral cripple and we'll both be worse for it."

You have such a huge blind spot when it comes to your faith that you can't even guess what outsiders might find heinous about it - as shown by your post at 5:05 - and I think you're the worse for it. It's too bad you won't even address your Cheneyesque avoidance of what that faith actually teaches, but so be it.

(I've got a few ex-fundies to my credit, by the way - so swaying DOES happen. But it's rare.)

You made the assertion that "nobody claims" and I countered it, Skully. It's not my fault that you didn't qualify your original broad statement in any way.

The ORIGINAL quote was


"Also, you'll find that the words of God or Jesus are where the teachings are, not in the Psalms or other passages."

I'm confused in this thread...isn't Psalms the words of God?

Posted by freddiemac | August 7, 2008 4:13 PM

freddiemac writes: "I'm confused in this thread...isn't Psalms the words of God?"

No, actually. Like everything else in the bible, they're the words of long dead Hebrews. (With perhaps a long dead Greek or two tossed in for laughs.)

Posted by MoeLarryAndJesus | August 7, 2008 4:22 PM

It was you who brought up the authorship of the Bible as well, that was a topic you chose to insert into the conversation to score some fantasy argument points with yourself.

You see, there you are injecting snark and condescension to a relevant discussion... It was uncalled for and added nothing to the conversation. That is what trolling is - annoyance without substance.


And you didn't understand my post at 5:05 - Mixner made a claim without any evidence about the Bible. I never claimed there wasn't anything, as there are apalling things that happened in the Bible, but I wanted Mixner (and not he hasn't responded) to lay out of what he was speaking. If we are to make blanket assertions like that I would like to see the reasons behind them.

I understand there are people who thing Catholicism/Christianity/Religion/Non-empirical ideas are heinous or destructive. I think many of the beliefs and ethical systems other people have are heinous as well, irrespective of religious content. I don't much care, live and let live, I don't evangelize. I don't tell people what to base their moral, ethical or political views, and I am offended when people like some in these comments do.

I understand that the Catholic Church allows no ambiguity when it comes to abortion. However, the Catholic Church does allow for gray areas and balancing in other areas - the concept of "just wars", for example.

Considering that the issue here is abortion specifically and not war, I don't know why you think that's relevant. And as far as I can tell, the teachings of "evangelical churches" on war are at least as varied as the "gray area" you attribute to the Catholic Church on the issue.

Some Catholics disagree with some of the teachings of their church, but most of their fellow Catholics who follow the Church's teaching seem willing to tolerate them, which is a significant difference between Catholics and Evangelicals.

Sorry, I don't see any real difference here, either. "Catholics who follow the Church's teaching" don't really have much choice but to "tolerate" the dissenters. In western nations at least, dissenting Catholics vastly outnumber obedient ones, and the obedient ones don't have the power to censure, expel or otherwise punish the dissenters anyway. Only the Church authorities can do that. And the Church authorities are obviously reluctant to impose any kind of serious consequences for dissent from fear that doing so would drive even more people out of the Church. The Catholic Church has a hard enough time holding on to its members as it is. Giving them even more reasons to leave would just make things even worse.

skullberg,

Such as?

All the murders and genocide committed, ordered or condoned by God in the Old Testament.

Specifically, anything from the New Testament?

The doctrine of Hell. The condemnation of divorce and remarriage. The "most important" commandment.

I don't understand why the doctrine of Hell is so terrible. We send people to prison --which is certainly no fun--for committing crimes (sins) all the time. Why is it so heinous for God to do the same? Granted, His punishments seem to go farther than the 8th Amendment would allow, but heck, if I was omnipotent and omniscient, I'd probably do things that you disapprove of, too.

All the murders and genocide committed, ordered or condoned by God in the Old Testament.
Such as? Answering generalities with generalities doesn't work.
The condemnation of divorce and remarriage.

That is a low bar...

Even with that low bar, I'm not sure how

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it. Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

is apalling - asking for love and devotion to God and then directing love and compassion to other people

I don't understand why the doctrine of Hell is so terrible.

Eternal suffering. Eternal. You don't think that's a terrible thing to impose on someone?

if I was omnipotent and omniscient, I'd probably do things that you disapprove of, too.

Probably, yes. But why is that relevant to the issue at hand? Just because someone can do something obviously doesn't mean it is just or moral or righteous for them to do it. Or do you subscribe to the "might makes right" school of moral philosophy?

Rob Lyman says: "I don't understand why the doctrine of Hell is so terrible. We send people to prison --which is certainly no fun--for committing crimes (sins) all the time. Why is it so heinous for God to do the same?"

I guess adding in the element of torture doesn't faze a conservative much these days. Oh, sorry, did I say torture? I meant "enhanced eternity."

skullberg,

Such as? Answering generalities with generalities doesn't work.

They're too numerous to list one by one. How about Numbers 31, in which God orders Moses and his army to slaughter all the Midianites, children included, except for all the young virgin women, who are apparently to be kept so that Moses' men can rape them. Charming.

Even with that low bar,...

Huh? "Low bar?" There are tens of millions of Americans who are divorced and remarried. According to Jesus, they're committing the sin of adultery. A very serious wrongdoing. Maybe you don't consider that accusation appalling, but I do.

Even with that low bar, I'm not sure how ... is apalling - asking for love and devotion to God and then directing love and compassion to other people

Sorry, now you're trying to rewrite the Bible to say what you want it to say and ignoring what it actually says. A very common ploy among Christians and apologists for Christianity.

Contrary to your claim, Jesus does not merely "ask" people to love God. He says that loving God "with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind" is the most important commandment of all. Atheists and agnostics don't even believe God exists, let alone "love" him. Adherents of non-theistic or polytheistic religions likewise do not "love" God. According to Jesus, all these people are violating the most important commandment of all. More important than any of the commandments about how to treat other people. So yes, I consider this teaching utterly appalling also.

I see that I was not clear. I can understand why someone might think that Hell was a bad place, and God was a mean dude for sending people there.

What I don't understand is belief in Hell makes somebody a bad person. If I say "I believe prison sucks, so you should avoid going there," nobody is going to call me a moral cripple.

Many who claim the title, "pro-life" are not. They support needless deadly wars and death penalties. Interestingly - at least officially - Catholics do not.

While I disagree about the rights of a fertilized egg, I agree with and respect the consistency of the official Catholic position.

I see that I was not clear. I can understand why someone might think that Hell was a bad place, and God was a mean dude for sending people there. What I don't understand is belief in Hell makes somebody a bad person.

I don't think belief in hell necessarily makes one "a bad person." I think the belief is deeply irrational and tends to be destructive of human welfare. I also think it's inconsistent with belief in a God of love and justice. Are you under the impression that Christianity teaches that God is "a mean dude?"

Rob Lyman replies: "I see that I was not clear. I can understand why someone might think that Hell was a bad place, and God was a mean dude for sending people there.

What I don't understand is belief in Hell makes somebody a bad person. If I say "I believe prison sucks, so you should avoid going there," nobody is going to call me a moral cripple."

We choose our own beliefs, of course. There are plenty available that don't involve "loving" and praising as "good and perfect" the imaginary architect of a system in which the vast majority of the human race gets tortured eternally for non-crimes and misdemeanors. There are even Christian thinkers who don't hold that conception of god, and who deny the existence of such a hell - which, by the way, does not exist in the preceding Hebrew tradition.

If there's a prison in your neighborhood where inmates are tortured every day and you spend time telling people to avoid going there, I wouldn't say that makes you a bad person. But if you go bowling with that prison's warden once a week and you give him regular presents and tell everyone what a great guy he is and invite him to big family parties and advertise for him on your car's bumper... well, I'm inclined to think you're either a scumbag or you're out of your mind.

But then maybe that's just me.

'It is the decision of the holy Spirit and of us not to place on you (Gentiles) any burden beyond these necessities, namely, to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from meats of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage. If you keep free of these, you will be doing what is right. Farewell.' (Acts 15, from the early Church leaders in a messsage carried by Paul as to minimum entry cirteria into the Christian group). This is part of the Catholic Sunday Mass reading cycle. Sexual acts look to always have been a central issue in Catholicism; birth and baptism are seen as sacredly associated. With regards to denial of the Resurrection, Christ's last words, 'It is finished,' are more poignant therein.

If the choice is between goiong bowling with the warden and going to the prison--and if the warden is willing to bowl with most anyone who'd like--then you're damn right I'd bowl with him and encourage my friends to do so.

I'm not convinced we choose our beliefs the way we choose our shoes. I for one am an "unwilling unbeliever" who would prefer to be devout but find myself unable to believe in God.

I assume that everyone thinks that wrongful acts should not go unpunished. So for someone who believes that death is not the ultimate end, it's only logical to expect that you have to answer for your deeds even after your death.

Rob Lyman replies: "If the choice is between goiong bowling with the warden and going to the prison--and if the warden is willing to bowl with most anyone who'd like--then you're damn right I'd bowl with him and encourage my friends to do so."

You left out the parts about telling everyone what a great guy he was and advertising for him on your bumper - probably because you recognize some difference between being coerced and being a collaborator.

"I'm not convinced we choose our beliefs the way we choose our shoes. I for one am an "unwilling unbeliever" who would prefer to be devout but find myself unable to believe in God."

Perhaps the crappy conception of god that dominates our culture is part of the reason for that. But a large percentage of our population changes (at least) their denomination at some point. (I forget how large and I'm not in the mood to look it up.) I think most people end up with a belief system which reflects on them. You don't see many people following a religion (or a political credo) that makes them want to throw up.

You don't see many people following a religion (or a political credo) that makes them want to throw up.

One of the reason's we don't have many atheists...

The fundamental reason you can't rely on self-described Catholics to be anti-abortion is that you can't rely on self-described Catholics actually adhering to even the absolute minimum statement of the faith, much less any actual doctrines.

Exempli gratia, Andrew Sullivan, whose on-blog theological speculation includes direct contradictions of the Nicene Creed. That makes him exactly as Catholic as Osama Bin Laden; the difference being that Bin Laden knows that Bin Laden isn't Catholic, while Sullivan somehow hasn't figured out Sullivan isn't.

Skullberg types: "One of the reason's we don't have many atheists..."

There are very many atheists, in fact. And most of us are bright enough to realize that the plural of reason is "reasons."

It could also just be that we're more familiar with reason than most theists are.

Meanwhile I really do hope you enjoy your vacation at the Creationist Museum, Skully.

"And it came to pass that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost. 42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said: Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb." Luke 1:41-42. What's leaping in the womb is called an "infant" not "a bodily organ" or what not.

Hell can be a difficulty, but the people described as "going into fire" are always those who are the enemies of good and mistreaters of the poor. At their death there is no further chance of repentance. As they are cold-hearted to God and their fellow man they would not belong in Heaven. For one to have them in Heaven would be rewarding injustice and for another they would not want Heaven. If the punishment, rather than mere deprivement, element seems unfair than the rewards of Heaven should also be unfair. Human society would not give people life-long bliss for being good. In addition human societies are unable to know who is irredeemably wicked and who is purely good. So analogies to human societal rewards and punishments are largely irrelevant.

Still I admit eternal fire sounds a bit extreme to me at times. However the nature of the fire is unknown and Jesus was talking to people in a harsher age. It seems possible what is meant is a valley like Gehenna where fires pop-up, but individuals are not actually inside fire. The wailing is because they are people unable to give or receive love so will live eternally unhappy because their nature is unhappy. If their nature had some good God could purify them in Purgatory. To be in Hell means that the individual is unable to be truly happy, their "iniquity" is so deep rooted you'd have to essentially obliterate their personality to remove it. And this kind of violence to their nature is, arguably, even more cruel.

Atheists and non-believers do not necessarily burn in Hell. They might be eternally separated from God and believers, which in a sense means Hell, but any pain might come from that (and being wrong) while otherwise they might live fine.

Thomas R writes: "Atheists and non-believers do not necessarily burn in Hell. They might be eternally separated from God and believers, which in a sense means Hell, but any pain might come from that (and being wrong) while otherwise they might live fine."

And where would they live? Is there a lesser Hell called Heck? Is there beer there?

My remembrance of teaching about Purgatory was that it was merely a temporary place. What sort of non-official heresy are you positing, TR?

And most of us are bright enough to realize that the plural of reason is "reasons."

It could also just be that we're more familiar with reason than most theists are.

You found a type, I guess you win!



Meanwhile I really do hope you enjoy your vacation at the Creationist Museum, Skully.

I'm Catholic AND I believe in evolution - both interspecies and intraspecies - and so have all the Priests I have talked about it with, which makes sense since it is accepted by the Church. I would think someone as well versed in being an a**hat wouldn't make such a flaw in such a well placed ad hominem attack.

Skully replies: "I'm Catholic AND I believe in evolution - both interspecies and intraspecies - and so have all the Priests I have talked about it with, which makes sense since it is accepted by the Church. I would think someone as well versed in being an a**hat wouldn't make such a flaw in such a well placed ad hominem attack."

Bully for you! Your general approach made me peg you as a fundie. Try to modify it in the future. But I guess you're just trying to fit in with the Bob Jones crowd.

This is the last time I feed the troll.

Bully for you! Your general approach made me peg you as a fundie. Try to modify it in the future. But I guess you're just trying to fit in with the Bob Jones crowd.

Who knows what kind of bigotry and prejudice would cause someone to write that, but I certainly hope you are a more pleasant person in meatspace.

"And where would they live? Is there a lesser Hell called Heck? Is there beer there? My remembrance of teaching about Purgatory was that it was merely a temporary place. What sort of non-official heresy are you positing, TR?" ML&J

TR: I'm often intrigued how much militant atheists/secularists want a religious person to be an ultra-traditionalist or Fundamentalist. If they're not they get pouty and start denouncing the person's heterodoxy more than any priest or preacher would. I guess you need your "boogeyman" boo hoo for you.

Back in reality the idea that not all are punished equally in Hell, and that the unbaptized can go to a limbo, goes back to Medieval times. Maybe even earlier. Admittedly I can't entirely prove it, but justice would seem to require that not all crimes be treated identically. Now before the 14th century views of Hell might have been harsher. So I'll concede I'm liberal by the standards of 13th century Italy. (Heck I believe women can vote, but don't spread that around "g")

Re: Evangelicals who stop believing in God, or biblical literalism, don't continue to call themselves evangelicals.

"Literalism" is a slippery term and you might better rephrase that as "Biblical inerrancy". Not all Evaneglicals are Fundamentalists, in fact the movement began with Billy Graham and others distancing themselves from the hard literalism of earlier Fundamentalism. Probably you won't find a lot of strict Darwinists in an evangelical church, but you probably will find people who acknowledge that the Earth is more than 6000 years old and that the Bible contains a great deal of allegory and metaphor.

I have always thought the word "Evangelical" is incorrectly used in current political discussions.

It seems to be used to mean a certain type of fairly fundamentalist protestant, but aren't all Christians Evangelical. Aren't all Christians called to Evangelize?

Mixner I won't say much as I didn't read through everything. Just saw how deeply offended you were about Christ's comment on divorce.

I'm deeply offended that so many people let their relationships end in divorce. I'm not talking about the battered wife (or husband) cases here.

But sure more children are adversely affected by the parents not toughening up and doing what they should for their own personal good and the good of the marriage. Instead they take the easy way out and part ways, forgetting that they made a vow to each other and in many cases to God as well.

Our society is suffering from the selfish desires of parents/spouses. People are so fixed on feeling "justified" in what they do. He did this so I did that. She's like this so you can't blame me for doing that.

If the parents would learn Christ's perhaps greatest teaching, to love, serve and be quick to forgive your neighbor (spouse included).

The world sure could do with a lot less people feeling justified in their actions.

TR replies: "I'm often intrigued how much militant atheists/secularists want a religious person to be an ultra-traditionalist or Fundamentalist. If they're not they get pouty and start denouncing the person's heterodoxy more than any priest or preacher would. I guess you need your "boogeyman" boo hoo for you.

Back in reality the idea that not all are punished equally in Hell, and that the unbaptized can go to a limbo, goes back to Medieval times. Maybe even earlier."

Not looking for a boogeyman, TR, and I know from past discussions that you're not a fundie. I guess you just don't get the humor of questions like, "Is there beer there?"

And Limbo has been officially closed. Health code violations or something, I forget. So where will the not-so-good dead people live is still a valid question.

"As an empirical matter, I'm sure that last sentence is true, though logically I'm not quite sure why that should be the case--"

Hmmmm ... could it be because fundamentalism, which is the most visible and audible strain of evangelical Christianity, is profoundly anti-sex and anti-female?

Just asking.

"And Limbo has been officially closed" ML&J

TR: I've not been entirely happy with Pope Benedict and was disappointed he went in that direction. I worry he's a bit too Protestant-sympathetic for me and was disappointed he seemed to sincerely have nice things to say about Martin Luther. (You have to pretend to have some nice things about him to avoid hurting the feelings of Lutherans, who are mostly nice people even if their founder was an emotionally unstable anti-Semite. Still I worry Pope Benedict really meant his compliments.) Anyway until he outright condemns it I'm still going to think Limbo is possible.

Still from what I can tell he seems to be trying to say everyone who'd goes to Limbo goes to Heaven, which to me is history/theologically absurd. If you get rid of Limbo what it traditionally means is the unbaptized go to Hell unless they are martyred for Christ, die desiring baptism, or are in a state invincible ignorance. On the first Jesus told the one man on the cross next to him that he'd go to Heaven for his kindness to him and deathbed repentance, but the man was never baptized. On the "invincible ignorance" this is mentioned by Pius IX, who was hardly a liberal. The desire one is sort-of self-explanatory, but you can look it up if you want.

And yeah I got the humor of the beer part, but I thought the overall deal was serious.

"aren't all Christians Evangelical. Aren't all Christians called to Evangelize?"

I remember a pollster came once and asked my parents if they were Catholic. They said "yes." Then they asked if they were "Evangelicals" and again they said "yes."

In principle "evangelical" shouldn't really have the political connotation it does. A liberal Quaker missionary is evangelical, even if they go to say Africa to evangelize for reducing the military and legalizing sodomy.

Thomas R,

Your comments further illustrate why the Christian doctrine of hell is so incoherent and repugnant.

Hell can be a difficulty, but the people described as "going into fire" are always those who are the enemies of good and mistreaters of the poor. At their death there is no further chance of repentance.

Why not? Does God somehow prevent them from repenting?

As they are cold-hearted to God and their fellow man they would not belong in Heaven. For one to have them in Heaven would be rewarding injustice and for another they would not want Heaven. If the punishment, rather than mere deprivement, element seems unfair than the rewards of Heaven should also be unfair. Human society would not give people life-long bliss for being good. In addition human societies are unable to know who is irredeemably wicked and who is purely good. So analogies to human societal rewards and punishments are largely irrelevant.

What does "irredeemably wicked" mean, exactly? Is it merely a state of mind, a state of being, independent of any actual "wicked" behavior? You think a person who is "irredeemably wicked" deserves to be subjected to eternal (eternal!) suffering merely for being "irredeemably wicked," do you? That strikes you as just and moral and righteous, does it? Simply preventing them from behaving "wickedly" isn't enough? You think they have to be made to suffer forever and ever in order for justice to be served, do you? Anything less than eternal suffering is too good for them? Is that it?

To be in Hell means that the individual is unable to be truly happy,

No, to be in Hell is to be subjected to eternal punishment, eternal suffering. The Bible clearly describes Hell as a place or state of punishment that God imposes on unrepentant sinners for their sin. It's not merely a state of being unhappy. Indeed, if a person is "unable to be truly happy" why is that a reason to punish them with eternal suffering, rather than pity them and try to help them?

Atheists and non-believers do not necessarily burn in Hell. They might be eternally separated from God and believers, which in a sense means Hell, but any pain might come from that (and being wrong) while otherwise they might live fine.

Well, what happens to them, then? If they don't go to Heaven and they don't go to Hell, where do they go? And for how long? Atheists and agnostics violate what Jesus describes as the most important commandment of all (to love God with all your heart, etc.), so if anyone deserves to go to Hell, why don't atheists deserve to?

sam,

Mixner I won't say much as I didn't read through everything. Just saw how deeply offended you were about Christ's comment on divorce.

"Offended" isn't really the right word. I find Jesus' statement that divorce and remarriage is a serious wrongdoing, a grave "sin," to be morally repugnant. Unworthy of respect. The same way I find claims that, say, gay sex is a "sin" or that using contraception is a "sin" to be morally repugnant.

I'm deeply offended that so many people let their relationships end in divorce.

I don't care if you're "offended" and I think that, absent exceptional circumstances, it's arrogant and presumptious of you in the extreme to assert that you're in a better position to judge the quality and prospects of other people's marriages than the married couple themselves.

Are there two Mixners? I don't recall ever agreeing with him before.

Mixner, eternal Hell is at times a quandary for me and many Christians. However actions do get punished. If someone's a serial killer do you just say "oh he's screwed up poor thing, let's get him medication and put him in a nice mental institute." Generally we give them life imprisonment or death. And if this life is all there is life imprisonment is essentially an eternity in a land of hopelessness and despair.

The other thing is I think you're thinking there's some natural good in everyone and that everyone's able to be rehabilitated. That's sweet, but I don't think it's realistic.

Now admittedly I'd prefer to believe in a Hell that is just an eternal separation from God where any punishment is mostly the punishment of being a miserable person for eternity. That is what I've believed, more or less, for much of my adulthood. Yet I will agree the New Testament does not seem to allow for that. I've been thinking on the matter for a bit, but haven't come to any conclusions. Atheism however would not be a conclusion. Even if I somehow abandoned Christianity it does not seem plausible to me that atheism would be the inevitable result of doing so and I've never gotten a satisfactory reason why it would.

TR says: "Yet I will agree the New Testament does not seem to allow for that. I've been thinking on the matter for a bit, but haven't come to any conclusions. Atheism however would not be a conclusion. Even if I somehow abandoned Christianity it does not seem plausible to me that atheism would be the inevitable result of doing so and I've never gotten a satisfactory reason why it would."

So you've accepted Pascal's Wager.

I haven't. I just can't pretend to believe in something I don't believe. It seems to me that that's what you're doing, TR.

Do you think that's really what a god would want?

I look at the universe - a magnificent and immense place of wonder - and I just know that the idiotic bully-god of the bible has no validity. It doesn't pass the laugh test. It's like thinking your family hamster will wake up tomorrow and come up with a unified field theory. It's not happening.

Mixner, eternal Hell is at times a quandary for me and many Christians. However actions do get punished. If someone's a serial killer do you just say "oh he's screwed up poor thing, let's get him medication and put him in a nice mental institute." Generally we give them life imprisonment or death. And if this life is all there is life imprisonment is essentially an eternity in a land of hopelessness and despair.

I have not suggested that justice and love precludes all punishment for wrongdoing. But we're not talking about just any punishment here. We're not even talking about harsh punishment. We're talking about ETERNAL SUFFERING. How can you possibly reconcile the infliction of eternal punishment with a God of love and justice? Under any remotely civilized conception of the meaning of justice and love it's nonsensical. Sadistic. Evil. Monstrously cruel. I don't believe the God of Christianity exists, but if he does and if he behaves as described in the Bible he is worthy of scorn and contempt, not respect, let alone love.

Even if I somehow abandoned Christianity it does not seem plausible to me that atheism would be the inevitable result of doing so and I've never gotten a satisfactory reason why it would.

I don't think atheism is the "inevitable result" of abandoning Christianity. But I do think that belief in God or Gods in any of the traditional religious senses of the word (God, Allah, Jehovah, Shiva, Odin, Zeus, etc.) is highly irrational. The only God I consider consistent with reason and evidence is the deistic God of philosophical theism. And even that seems rather implausible to me.

Just to mention I loved Terry Pratchett's interpretation of Pascal's Wager on the Discworld, where the Discworld equivalent of Pascal dies to find himself on the ethereal plane with a lot of really pissed-off deities around him: "We're going to show what we think of Mr. Smart-Arse...."

"So you've accepted Pascal's Wager." ML&J

TR: I'm not sure that's the right way to put it. It's more like the Catholicism I believed in and was raised in still seems right to me. I would literally not be alive without it. Atheists have told me that as a fifth child with a genetic condition I shouldn't have been born or my little sister shouldn't have. Catholicism offers one of the most protecting and nurturing atmospheres for those doomed to fail in a world of pure Darwinian selection. (Socialism I suppose does too, considering Steinmetz, but I really couldn't embrace that for other reasons) Reading stuff by Popes from the 1930s onward I had little problem with it. That a literal reading of the Bible on Hell, and some Papal statements of the 1800s, don't entirely fit with my thinking is not really enough for me.

Besides which the Hell stuff is often emphasized by atheists intent on wanting people to leave Christianity. I've rarely even heard Hell mentioned at Church and the modern Popes I've read do not have you or Mixner's view on Hell. So I'm still not sure my own traditional thinking on the matter is incorrect. It's just not what some purely outside force says I should see it as. True it's also in discord with the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia and the "Society of St. Pius X", but I'm not sure why that has to shake me up. The militant atheist position of late tends to be it should because the "true form" of a religion is it's most literalistic form and therefore if you're not in that you might as well abandon all religion, which I find silly.

Besides which denying Catholicism would be to say people I love are insane as they've had experiences with saints, Mother Mary, and God. I may have as well, but I'm uncertain on the matter.

Thomas R,

TR: I'm not sure that's the right way to put it. It's more like the Catholicism I believed in and was raised in still seems right to me. I would literally not be alive without it.

This seems highly unlikely.

Catholicism offers one of the most protecting and nurturing atmospheres for those doomed to fail in a world of pure Darwinian selection.

You have got to be kidding. If the world followed the sexual and reproductive behaviors taught by the Catholic Church, the result would be massive overpopulation and the consequent horrors of mass starvation, disease, poverty and conflict.

Besides which the Hell stuff is often emphasized by atheists intent on wanting people to leave Christianity. I've rarely even heard Hell mentioned at Church and the modern Popes I've read do not have you or Mixner's view on Hell.

Er, the Catholic Catechism describes Hell in almost exactly the same terms as Jesus does in the Bible, as a place or state of eternal punishment for unrepentant sinners:

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."

Given the repugnant nature of the Church's teaching on Hell, and how difficult it is to reconcile that teaching with modern western notions of justice and love, I don't think it's terribly surprising that you've rarely heard it even mentioned at Church. It's terrible PR. American priests tend to present a sanitized, sugar-coated version of Catholicism to their parishoners to try and make the religion more palatable. It wouldn't surprise me if even most priests don't really believe the Catholic doctrine on Hell. I'm fairly confident most lay American Catholics don't. Assuming they even know what the doctrine is.

Besides which denying Catholicism would be to say people I love are insane as they've had experiences with saints, Mother Mary, and God.

Huh? No, it wouldn't be to say that. It would be to say they are mistaken about the nature of their experiences. Perhaps dishonest. But not "insane."

Re: Are there two Mixners? I don't recall ever agreeing with him before.

Mixner is a modern rarity: an anti-religious rightwinger. That didn't used to be the oxymoron it has now become. Ayn Rand was as bitterly atheist as Dawkins or Hitchens.

Re: If the world followed the sexual and reproductive behaviors taught by the Catholic Church, the result would be massive overpopulation and the consequent horrors of mass starvation, disease, poverty and conflict.

No, because a great many of those good Catholics would join the clergy or monastic orders and would have no children at all.