From a senior who majored in English:
"Is it wrong to feel schadenfreude about my classmates who majored in Economics to get "safe" jobs at Lehman and Merrill Lynch?"
I heard about it second hand, so I'm paraphrasing, but this gave me hope for America's youth.
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Of course the English major will still be serving coffee to pay for her English habit regardless of how poorly the Economics student does. The Economics student will also have the knowledge that he actually learned something in college. You can spend your life reading great books. You don't need a University to do that. In fact, considering the curriculum at most English departments today, they are actually a hindrance to that.
They say that now as they ride high on the post-structuralism bubble, but when that bursts, where will they be? Plus, India and China are producing English sentences both faster much more cheaply than their US counterparts. Soon you'll be able to get a haughty, disdainful opinion of the book you really liked for a fraction of what you're paying now.
John, What happened this weekend affects all of us. Doesn't matter what the hell you studied. Unless you're filthy stinking rich, we're all in this together.
Lesley: well said. My portfolio (really just a lot of Vanguard Global Equity mutual fund holdings) is already down 30% from this time last year. Thank God I'm not anywhere near retirement age, and thank God I didn't take the "good advice" from my friends to buy a house when the market was up.
In one way or another, we're all getting stuck holding this hot potato.
John, why do you assume that only "Great Books," but not economics lessons could be studied independently? I'd rather read a text-book full of logic and math to myself, while sitting in for discussions about works that require creative intepretations and unique points of view.
BTW, I am not knocking economics as a discipline. I simply believe that, unlike for English, the creativity and ingenuity involved in Econ only begin after the fundamentals are mastered in undergrad.
I'd feel better if that quote were from someone who started a business, or majored in engineering....
I do not feel schadenfreude, more like relief. If I were to enter the finance industry last year right after college and worked 'til I dropped for a year, instead of being rewarded, I'd likely be canned.
And yes, I am an economics major. I am so glad I am instead a web developer.
Adina,
You may have a giant enough brain to that. If you do, I commend you. I majored in Economics in college and think that it is very much a craft in that someone has to teach you the basics and the math skills. Yeah, you can learn how to manipulate a supply and demand curve on your own or things like marginal benefit on your own. But to get down into the nitty gritty of actually doing the math, at least I, needed to be taught.
As far as English goes, it could be a great major but most English departments are bloody awful. Perhaps the English major in this example can go on to get her PHD and a tenured track job writing a feminist deconstructionist critique of The Good Earth emphasizing its transsexual Muslim imagery. Personally, I would rather be unemployed or dig ditches than have to read or write most of the crap that comes out of English Departments and I say that as a person who loves fiction and books.
In my u-grad days as an applied math + physics major I had my share of contempt for business majors. I don't know how my old friends are faring in this meltdown -- they're not in NYC -- but it's nice to see the masters of the universe being knocked-down a few pegs.
I have a B.A. in English and an MS in Accounting. The writing, study, and critical thinking skills I honed during my undergraduate work made me a more capable business student than most of my graduate program cohort, and helped tremendously on the CPA exam.
That said, I think the schaudenfreude is misplaced. The entire economic picture, for the vast majority of us, is going to get worse before it gets better.
Do people still believe that what they majored in during college matters?
They have a saying in the military; "Failure breeds supervision". Thanks to these clowns running their company in the ground, we look forward to new rounds of regulation that will do nothing but make us all poorer.
As an English/Math major who now works in finance, I have no sympathy for people who took jobs at these banks, because if you think that job is definitely safe, you're an idiot. (Kind of like how you're an idiot if you think home prices will definitely keep going up. Any relation?)
And John, I don't think the point of studying English is to read great books, though I agree that far too many people who study it believe that it is. The economics one learns may be more useful than the English one learns, but I think one learns a lot in both disciplines provided he approaches them correctly.
Nick,
I have always felt that the point of an English major is to read and through that reading gain insight and wisdom into how people act and think and are. Fiction, along with actual experience, is the only way to get that kind of wisdom. I never found my English classes in college to be of much value when it comes to reasoning and writing skills. They used to have a joke in the philosophy department; if you get tired of losing arguments and want to win one once in a while, just go down to the English department. The value of them was the great things you got to read and discuss.
Nice, yeah, feel happy that people who lost their jobs and Merril et al.. dumbazz, who is going to buy your nice little novels and pay you money to write in a cafe all day long if the economy collapses genius...
I have always felt that the point of an English major is to read and through that reading gain insight and wisdom into how people act and think and are. Fiction...is the only way to get that kind of wisdom.
Shouldn't non-fiction teach you more about "how people think, act, and are" than fiction? using novels for that purpose makes about as much sense as reading science fiction to learn about physics and chemistry.
I minored in Economics. It is rather interesting and useful at the undergrad level where the focus is more on the qualitative and "common sense" aspects of the discipline.
"They say that now as they ride high on the post-structuralism bubble, but when that bursts, where will they be?"
That was funny.
"In my u-grad days as an applied math + physics major I had my share of contempt for business majors."
Back to Megan's friend's initial comment, I'm sure some of them went on to have contempt for the applied math/physics types who went on to become quants on Wall Street.
It's usually best not to admit to feeling schadenfreude, since others will think less of you for it, but as a practical matter I second the commenters above who questioned whether an English major is in an enviable position. Perhaps so, if he is in one of a handful of schools where he'll have the connections to plum jobs in publishing or TV writing, but otherwise, perhaps not. The sorts of majors who can write their own ticket today are in geology, certain types of engineering applicable to the natural resources industry, etc.
"Shouldn't non-fiction teach you more about "how people think, act, and are" than fiction? using novels for that purpose makes about as much sense as reading science fiction to learn about physics and chemistry."
History certainly does that to so I should have not said "only". But so does non fiction. There is a whole lot to be learned about human nature in Shakespeare or the Iliad.
Ack! Could have used an English major to check that last post. "Back to Megan's friend's initial comment," belonged at the beginning of the last paragraph instead.
With all due respect to the English major, I don't think anyone who works on wall street, does so because they think it's safe. They know it's a huge risk. You could get fired at any time for no reason and escorted out by security. They send your personal things in a box later if they feel like it. But it's a calculated risk that people take. Other than the newly hired grads/undergrads, everyone else who worked on wall street made a killing the last 3 yrs and will be fine. They probably made more money the last 3 yrs than the "average" english major will their whole life. So I don't feel sorry for most of these people who are now going to lose their jobs. BUT, this will affect main street just as much. Less consumer confidence, spending, lower real estate, less corp profits, lower bonuses/salary increases, less consumer spending etc. It goes on.
John,
In my book, the study of literature is the study of abstract systems (i.e., texts, symbolic structures, author functions, language, etc.) which may or may not interact with other abstract systems in interesting ways. My view is largely informed by being a math person and a neo-formalist, but I think the point of studying literature (and probably most contemporary theorists would agree) is more to understand how books function as systems of words, themes, characters, narrated events, etc., than it is to talk about human nature or collective human experience. I think books can be useful for the latter but then you are delving more into philosophy.
I agree with your point that English classes are not great for reasoning skills - if I was in charge of an English curriculum, some kind of basic course on logic would be a prerequisite. A lot of critics and theorists are prone to obnoxiously ignoring it.
"My view is largely informed by being a math person and a neo-formalist, but I think the point of studying literature (and probably most contemporary theorists would agree) is more to understand how books function as systems of words, themes, characters, narrated events, etc., than it is to talk about human nature or collective human experience."
Most theorists would agree with you. I think it is all rubish and one of the reasons why English departments are dying. That view destroys all of the joy and anything interesting in reading fiction.
IMHO, Schadenfreude is usually an extension of envy, one of the seven deadly sins and considered irredeemable.
Avoid it at all times. The great English word for this evil is epicarycacy.
Unless you think the investment banking business is going away those that remain are going to have a bigger upside. Survivor relief maybe but not schadenfreude. Thanks for reminding me to think of putting my nickel to work.
As someone that lives in New York and is currently looking for employment, this is just more bad news. Especially for New York City. Appoximately 20% of New York City's tax receipts come from Wall Street. Thousands of highly paid professionals are soon to be unemployed causing a significant hit to the economy of the largest city in the U.S.
The ramifications of these financial difficulties go far beyond Wall Street. Bear Stearns, now Lehman Brothers and we are no where out of the woods. The person who was experiencing schadenfreude is a fool.
Schadenfreude was well deserved for Spitzer... but the shrinking of the world's money supply doens't deserve it
Big investment banks such as Lehman actually employ(ed) a lot of quant types such as CS majors. They're not all Economics majors by any means.
Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly but how so?
For all you know the people majoring in Economics have a disabled parent, a brother with Down syndrome, or are a first generation American, and maybe they simply can't afford to take a chance on a degree in English.
Look, not everybody grows up with a safety net.
The choice between English and Economics is not always 'modest life, rewarding career' vs. 'extravagant life'. Sometimes it's 'struggling to pay the bills (b/c of aforementioned responsibilities)' vs. 'paying those bills and having a little left over for yourself'.
If I were in that situation I know what choice I would make. Do you?
There's always law school to fall back on.
Hank Paulson was an English major.
Literature is great for studying human nature, as long as you choose to study authors whose reputation has survived across the boundaries of history and cultures. Those tend to be the ones who nailed human nature in such as way as to have universal appeal.
Otherwise, you're better off with history. Post-structuralism is still annoying in history, but theory tends to either get integrated into a historian's pre-existing fascination with human difference across time, or get ripped apart on the basis of Foucault's mediocre use of historical evidence and faulty theory of change.
I love the insane misconception that everyone who majored in English works in coffeeshops. There's something so weirdly bitter about it.
Justin said it best: Do people still believe that what they majored in during college matters?
Since I've just exited the ARMY (ETS for those who are curious) school starts in two weeks for the quarter system schools. I'm planning on majoring in Economics and International Studies. However, I detect a strong bias in the hostess predilection to English majors. So thats that. In addition "schadenfreude" is a state of feeling, so instead of "feel" it shouldf read "be".
Why does this give you hope for the youth. Seems like the opposite. Someone with no accomplishments happy that those with productive lives are now facing hardship. Typical lety sentiment. How are you not a lefty again.
John, in that case it probably makes sense that you weren't an English major. I think too many English majors are in the department because they like reading books, not because they want to study them. Now that I'm out of school, I do more of the former than the latter, which works fine for me.
Hank Paulson was an English major.
I do believe we have a Thread Winner!
Oog, and Paulson was from Barrington Hills. I think I'm gonna throw up.