I'm stopping the sock puppeting. The impersonations of MLJ are occasionally amusing, but they're more often distracting. Note to MLJ: I can't ban the people who are using your alias, because I don't know which one of you is you, so to speak. What I am going to do is ban anyone who is repeatedly uncivil, so if you tone it down, you'll survive the winnowing process and they won't.
Further note: terms like "Rethuglican" and "Dimocrat" are automatic grounds not merely for deletion, but for banning. If you are very, very nice, I may unban you after one slip . . . but not two.
Copyright © 2009 by The Atlantic Monthly Group. All rights reserved.
As a very partisan Democrat, nothing annoys me more than "Rethuglican". I just want to yell to everyone at DKos etc that it makes them sound like middle schoolers and does absolutely nothing to further discourse with people you might be interested in convincing.
Oh, and I think the corresponding term is "libtard". I've never even heard the one you list.
Purely out of interest, has your mother delivered her oracle on the election yet?
I've never posted here before and I can't quite figure out the comment police standards, but if it means that all comments here will be respectful and non-personal, I'm all for it and this will become a great place for intelligent discussion.
As to the Palin speech, she obviously did great. The democrats are temporarily flailing [sp?]. The media is looking for ways to hurt her. I assume the democrats will gain their footing (although perhaps not with Obama apparently saying today that the surge succeeded in ways nobody anticipated) and the media will figure out a way to bring her down (and perhaps she will help them). Although, the media certainly has been hapless, sexist and tone deaf so far. Criticizing her because she had a speechwriter? Give me a break. When did you last hear that criticism of a male? Maybe occasionally against Bush and Reagan. I don't remember it ever by the media against a democrat.
Thank you Megan, I'm sure my impostors will slip up before I do. I have no objection to the imposition of civility, as long as it is uniform.
It's very, very easy to figure out which is Moe - from the email addresses which aren't made public.
How would anyone else know the real Moe's email?
Brian, how do you explain the focus groups that show Palin being rejected by Independents, motivating Democrats to donate more, and generally doing nothing but motivate the GOP and Democratic bases? Given that the Democrats have a big edge in party identification, doesn't this all add up to bad news for McCain, even before you figure in the rich trove of Palin scandals, and the hostages she gave to fortune last night with some of her more obvious falsehoods?
Tech wonders: "It's very, very easy to figure out which is Moe - from the email addresses which aren't made public.
How would anyone else know the real Moe's email?"
Exactly. And since I've been posting here for a long time and I've been using the same email to sign in with since the sign-in system was started, I don't find Megan's "oh well" to be very convincing.
I suspect that if someone were posting under Steve Sailer's name the response would be very different.
re: stupid twists on Republican and Democrat: to call the habit middle schoolish is an insult to middle schoolers; the middle schoolers I know are much more clever than that. I post under a pseudonym only because I sometimes comment while at work - I know, but I swear it doesn't materially affect my productivity - but I quite like the idea that if you wouldn't say it to someone's face, you can't say it in a comments thread.
Democrap, dhimmicrap, repuke, rethug - honestly, I read that and I wonder who is it that thinks like that? do they talk like that when they are amongst themselves? Do they have a "themselves"? Cause I find it hard to imagine there are really that many people who talk like that, and they must be spread out geographically (except in places like Madison or San Fran. I kid. I kid.) (Not really). Do they have jobs? Did they, in fact, get beyond middle school?
Then I think - maybe it's an analog of porn addiction - maybe, instead of talking dirty on a sex site, they go on political blogs and spew this crap, but in real life they walk around all calm and normal and no one knows their dirty little secret.
I think about this too much, don't I?
stubby, the key question is whether you now have hot little hands and a sticky keyboard. *s*
Morzer,
I think the motivation of the respective bases is an entirely predictable reaction to a great speech by a conservative republican woman.
I'm not sure what you refer to with respect to focus groups. I saw little snippets about one in Michigan and one in Nevada that generally support your point. But focus groups are not a very good predictor of how large groups of people will vote - they are too small a sample size and too subject to the dynamics of group discussion. They give a better indication of how certain arguments will play. It is way too soon to judge how "independents" will be affected, if at all, by Palin. But there must be some group of independents who will identify with and be favorably impressed by her. I have no idea as to whether there overall will be a net gain or loss of votes, or no effect, but Palin sure has made the race more interesting.
Brian, I'd have to disagree with you when you call it a great speech. It was very staccato, with no real structure, except for applause line after thudding applause line. It didn't lay out any sort of vision for the GOP or the country, except to repeat, ad nauseam: John McCain great, Barack Obama loser. It had no real meat in policy terms, and offered nothing to attract Independents.
I would say that it was an effective partisan speech to the base, but that doesn't make a great speech. A year from now, you won't be able to look back and recall anything - except that she talked about herself as a family person, and that she didn't like Obama. That's where the whole thing failed, for me, and why I suspect it will prove a bust in the long term.
there's already been one "independent" focus group from ABCwhich turns out to have included not one, but two Code Pink members identified as "independent." I do not think the word means what they want us to think it means.
And also, Morzer - yes to both, but it's from hot flashes and Diet Coke, I promise.
stubby, I can approve of the hot flashes, but I really don't know about this Diet Coke stuff. Sounds kind of unAmerican to me. *s*
Morzer, some of your content assessments are correct but I think an attractive articulate politician delivering with poise and timing "applause line after thudding [thundering?] applause line" gets into the great speech category.
This campaign season, I have concluded that, even among those who try to do it honestly, the assessment of political speeches is an almost wholly subjective process. And most of the media does not even attempt to do it honestly, or are unable to do so honestly. As far as how the voting public assesses a speech, I think they also filter it through their own bias or subjectivity, with truly independent persons developing a general impression, which must be shaped to some extent by media reports and/or replays.
Brian, the problem with your definition is that your "great" speech seems to be entirely lacking in content or vision. Anyone can read canned attack lines off a teleprompter, but Palin never went beyond this, and it really is a very limited achievement. I'll give you that it was effective for the base, but that simply is not enough.
As for the applause, I'm sorry but measuring greatness by applause on favorable ground is simply not a reasonable benchmark. You could put the Easter Bunny onstage, and if it attacked liberals, the GOP crowd would roar.
Yes, assessments are subjective - but even you can't find much substantive in what Palin said. Where's the greatness?
We'll have to see how the troll control works out. I'd imagine it will be fine because Megan has basically decent instincts on this stuff. But it reminds me of the kinds of discretion issues that arise with, say, police decisions to arrest people during demonstrations. One thing that should be avoided: other commenters trying to point Megan towards people they accuse of trolling as a means of getting people they disagree with banned. I've been on sites where that went on, and it turns into a lynch mob.
I have to say that for me the worst form of trolling is the fake servicemen who appear on these sites and use their "service" as a way of accusing others of a lack of patriotism. They are offensive on every front, and a banning policy for them would be a real gain.
Morzer, you could similarly put Santa Claus on stage and have him promise to spend money, and the Democratic crowd would roar, but that doesn't make Obama a bad speaker.
morzer writes: "I have to say that for me the worst form of trolling is the fake servicemen who appear on these sites and use their "service" as a way of accusing others of a lack of patriotism. They are offensive on every front, and a banning policy for them would be a real gain."
How about the bogus posters who claim to be lifelong Democrats and then start blasting Obama, etc., in ways that make it clear they're Repig, uh, Rethug, uh, GOP ops?
Then there was the HUGE FLOOD of fakes who posted on Douthat's blog during the Repug, uh, GOP primaries on behalf of Mitt Romney. Hordes of Marys, Beths, Janes, and so on who all basically said the same things about how great the dog-abusing freak was.
It all gets a little absurd.
Josh, that's absolutely true, but I am saying that applause in itself doesn't define a speech as "great". No disagreement that Palin was effective at talking up a storm on home ground - but I think a great speech has to go beyond what she offered in terms of content. Likewise, if Obama gives a great speech, I would consider it great because it laid out a vision or articulated a new set of policies in an effective way, not because everyone loved it and clapped like crazy.
MLJ doesn't bother me so much, so long as he's not talking about Repiglicans. But then I grade for spelling.
MLJ, I don't find the people you list tremendously enlightening either. They are a sad feature of life on the net, and I dare say always will be. On a lighter note, since you seem to have an "in" with the All-Seeing Eye, what does it mean when Megan says that we should be "very, very nice"? Is there a specific protocol? And what if we are merely "nice" or "very nice"?
Megan,
I am glad you are putting an end to some of the most appalling vitriol – it is sad that adults cannot use reason to argue their point of view instead of stooping to childish name calling.
I have read this blog for a long time, although I have never made a comment. Ms. McArdle you have made me scratch my head with disbelieve at times with your take on issues, other times your comments infuriated me, and sometimes you make me evaluate my views. In all those times, I have never thought a reason to comment. Tonight I want your comment about the shameful use of the memories of those who died in 9/11 and Senator Lindsay Graham’s speech ( do not even know what to say – words fail me).
Michael Tinkler writes: "MLJ doesn't bother me so much, so long as he's not talking about Repiglicans."
I've been using "Repiglicans" in an effort to avoid offending the few decent Republicans who are left by distinguishing between them and the members of the Cult of Dumbya. It seems like a very mild pejorative when I'm using it to describe war criminals and the people who love them.
Besides, if I really wanted to bring out the heavy insults I'd start calling people names like "tinkler." That must have been hard to grow up with.
Not sure why we're having this discussion here, but I found Palin nasty and deliberately stupid in a way that reminded me simultaneously of Campbell Brown and Ann Coulter. The GOP and business class figured out 10 years ago that conservative ideology and stockmarket updates are both best delivered by hot babes, for the same reasons that animate Lara Croft. Why they hadn't applied the reasoning to the political candidates they front as well as their on-camera "analysts" and flacks, I don't know.
While we're banning words, can "vitriol" get the boot?
MLJ, if I were you, I would hastily specify that Dumbya is an ancient Voodoo deity, in no way related to the current POTUS Richard B.. oh, never mind!
I really feel that Sailer needs to insert "my" before "IQ" in his first line. This message will now self-destruct.
morzer asks: "On a lighter note, since you seem to have an "in" with the All-Seeing Eye, what does it mean when Megan says that we should be "very, very nice"?"
I think it just means Megan is a Bokononist.
Oh, a sleeping drunkard
Up in Central Park,
And a lion-hunter
In the jungle dark,
And a chinese dentist,
And a British queen -
All fit together
In the same machine.
Nice, nice, very nice;
Nice, nice, very nice;
Nice, nice, very nice -
So many different people
In the same device.
Yes, you can use proxies, and I can get a list of open proxies and have an intern waste a day typing the addresses into the server, and deleting your comments. Don't you have anything better to do?
Hope you are feeling better.
(Am I banned?)
One suggestion to dealing with the trolls - propose that comments contain some form of constructive dialogue. By this I mean that (1) they define why they think that something is a problem, and (2) what they would do to correct the problem.
It's easy to criticize, but hard to explain why something might be wrong. It's harder still to explain how to fix the problem. Trolls don't bother, and putting such rules in place might help keep the discussion civil.
I can't take credit for this idea. It's the one of the main ideas taught by Toastmasters for giving evaluations.
Good luck with the troll problem!
Hmmm. I should have my CPA request a private letter ruling on the term "libtard."
Steenwyk says: "I should have my CPA request a private letter ruling on the term "libtard.""
Or you could just spend some more time at the Creationist Museum with your fellow conservative intellectuals. I understand they have pic-a-nic tables out back.
Thank you, Megan; this is just what we needed!
I want to suggest the addition of "glibertarian" to the banned list.
If you watch the entire convention (not just the part shown on network television), you'll get to see plenty of speakers who can't read canned lines off a teleprompter. In and of itself, it may not be a particularly important skill for a politician, but it's not as easy as you think.
I'm a bit unsure about banning words like "Repiglican". Removing half of Moe's vocabulary seems unnecessarily cruel. I don't know what we would do without his caustic and witty social commentary.
Who knew? MoeLarryandJesus has a method! Of course, it's based on his personal evaluation of who is a Repiglican and who is a Republican, but hey.
And yeah - Tinkler was not an easy name to start school with. Pretty much everyone got over the inherent humor by the time 2nd grade started.
True enough, but I'd be particularly surprised if an ex-sportscaster had any difficulty at all with the ol' TelePrompTer. She's got more canned-line-reading experience than the entire Democrat party, is what I'm hearing.
Tinkler reports: "And yeah - Tinkler was not an easy name to start school with. Pretty much everyone got over the inherent humor by the time 2nd grade started."
I'm guessing your wife (if you have one) kept her maiden name, though.
Kept her maiden name?
She\'s still kept her maidenhead!
Have you given any thought to Farah's question?
Could you "comment about the shameful use of the memories of those who died in 9/11 and Senator Lindsay Graham’s speech?"
I'm curious about your take, as well.
I want to suggest the addition of "glibertarian" to the banned list.
At least properly used, "glibertarian" is a little different-- a "glibertarian" is someone who pretends against any evidence to the contrary that the entire world is reducible to a few unchangeable free market principles. It's a much more directed insult than "repiglican", which is just saying that anyone who disagrees with a particular political party deserves a barnyard epithet.
I guess someone should point out that pretending to be another commenter isn't exactly the same thing as sock puppetry. As I understand it, sock puppetry is when one commenter pretends to be two or more different commenters, often using this ruse to conduct "dialogues" among the different characters.
Megan,
Good luck with the culling. I thought it was really getting out of hand. It reminded me of those parties where the one obnoxious guy won't stop talking so loud that no one else in the room can say anything. You love the party but the dude ruins the whole experience.
I'm going to stick around for a while and see how it goes.
RF
Dilan writes: "It's a much more directed insult than "repiglican", which is just saying that anyone who disagrees with a particular political party deserves a barnyard epithet."
This is simply untrue, and you're usually swifter than that, Dilan. I've explained the distinction over and over again. There are real Republicans left in this country and they don't deserve to be lumped in with the lunatic torture supporters who love Dumbya. Hence the neologism.
It's also a bow to Hunter Thompson, who used the phrase "Generation of Swine" to great effect. Damn, I wish he could be here to see that generation get rendered into Spam on election night.
How about using 0bama instead of Obama? Pronounced normally, but spelled a bit differently. You know, with all the chants of "zero, zero" at the RNC, I thought it would be useful to put that into practice.
Finally, I am so glad you are deleting mean and unproductive comments. I used to read your blog every day and I got so sick of the meaness and stupidity in the comments that I stopped reading. I read tonight on an econ blog you had finally decided to crack down and I will come back and check it out again.
The discussions on the old Jane Galt assymetrical blog you had were the best on the net. I think your writing has a way of stimulating good discussions, and I would love to see them come back.
I have a suggestion about what standard to use for deleting, one I have used on my own blogs. Any damn thing you feel like.
If you watch the entire convention (not just the part shown on network television), you'll get to see plenty of speakers who can't read canned lines off a teleprompter. In and of itself, it may not be a particularly important skill for a politician, but it's not as easy as you think.
Neither is lying with a perfectly straight face, which *is* a necessary skill for a politician. (E.g. A guy from the Deep South saying "I've never heard uppity used in a racially derogatory sense.")
Anyway, how do you feel about "libertoonian" and "Libertopia", Megan?
cool post dude
MoeLarry:
With all due respect to the late Hunter S. Thompson, he is not the first person I would look to for inspiration with respect to effective and persuasive political rhetoric.
The fact is, if you have strong ideas, you don't need to call your opponents "pigs"; you can let your ideas do the talking. And if you have weak ides, calling your opponents "pigs" doesn't make them any stronger.
Is Megan actually going to enforce these rules? Because MLJ hasn't stopped with his "Bushpigs" comments or his annoying tendency to twist other commenters names into references to nazis.
This isn't just one or two slips, he's done it essentially non-stop. Why have rules if they aren't enforced?
Perhaps someone will create a secondary comments weblog. Have it work like gmail initially did, invite only.