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26 Sep 2008 10:22 pm
Obama's position on Georgia is that . . . we should give them $1 billion to rebuild their economy. My position on global warming: a federal program to make sure everyone has an adequate supply of little umbrellas for their tropical drinks!
So we're all just gonna ignore that the Georgians killed hundreds of their own people, I take it?
Where is "Georgia" and why do I care?
I played the back nine at Augusta once. Looked fine.
That's rather elitist, Megan. We also need a federal program so that everyone has an adequate supply of those foam beer can sleeves!
Half of Georgia's roads have been shelled or chewed up by tank treads, a bunch of Russian sappers spent the second half of August dynamiting its ports for practice, and its housing stock has depreciated in value due to having been blown up.
But no doubt private investment can be found to remedy all these problems, as long as it keeps its capital gains taxes low.
brooksfoe writes: "But no doubt private investment can be found to remedy all these problems, as long as it keeps its capital gains taxes low."
Oh, no question. Market-driven foreign policy is the way to go, especially if bloggers who speak out in favor of it are given coupons for free cappuccino at trendy spots where dogs are allowed.
Elaborate:
1. Does Georgia not need rebuilding, and if not why? I have my own opinions on why this might be a stupid proposal, but presumably readers want to know yours.
2. Your position on global warming oscillates between the cringe-worthy and the laughable. Not the best counterpoint you could have used here.
3. Still waiting on a comment about the gaming of Intrade, if you care to address it given your public support of its relevance.
Show me a libertarian that has bothered to sit down with a credible scientist involved with climate and has absorbed the scales we're dealing with, please. That's not snark, I like to have my views challenged.
And what's your position on Georgia? Go to war against Russia, a nuclear power? Or invite Georgia into NATO right away so that the next time that country has a conflict with its neighbour, we go to war against Russia, a nuclear power?
Georgia is strategically important, and paying $1 billion to protect America's strategic interests is a cheap way to keep a foot in the door.
It is in the interest of the US of A to continue to have a close relationship with Georgia, but anything of a military nature will cause Russia to respond. Financial help, on the other hand, is sufficiently innocuous that Russia will have no excuse to pretend provoked, while protecting the West's interests in a strategically (read: oil) important area.
I don't read Reason Magazine myself, but is it true everybody over there is a libertarian hawk, bellicose especially towards Russia?
By the way, why don't all those Georgian lovers in America chip in their own money and pay for repairing Georgia's roads?
"...while protecting the West's interests in a strategically (read: oil) important area."
Shouldn't we tax oil really heavily? All those externalities! Half of American military budget should be financed directly from taxing oil consumption.
By the way, why don't all those Georgian lovers in America chip in their own money and pay for repairing Georgia's roads?
And why don't all the Iraq war supporters do the same? I'm a bit tired of every libertarian argument being teh markets! or "teh charity!
Finland might be a strategic asset...if the Finns were dumb enough to think we could actually do anything to protect them from Russian retaliation if they joined NATO. They're not.
They've learned to live with their unpleasant Russian neighbors. I'd suggest to the Georgians that they do the same.
What's the problem with a cool $1B for the Georgians.......the top 5% of wage earners can easily afford that......oh, you mean we're all going to be in the top 5%? hmmmmmm
Would this be the same Obama who suggested that we work against Russia through the UN... when Russia has a seat on the security council and veto power?
But no doubt private investment can be found to remedy all these problems, as long as it keeps its capital gains taxes low.
The post was obviously way too subtle. She wasn't objecting to the $1B in aid, she was objecting to the idea that this was any complete kind of answer or that what Georgia mostly needs is cash.
What Georgia mostly needs is security, so the Russians don't decide to come by next year and do another several billion in damage and, possibly, decide hang around for several decades. Just as, the solution to global warming isn't a tax rebate.
I think Obama had more to say than that. Perhaps you dozed off during those moments.
With respect to McCain, it seems his brilliant proposal is to adapt Kennedy's phrase, telling us again and again that "we are all georgians."
My problem with McCain is that he always seems to be reaching up to the shelf for some remedy for his current ills. A rather ad-hoc and ill-considered approach. It's like he's not even looking at the problems. I mean, he didn't even have time to read a barely three page proposal from Treasury on the bailout.
We've had enough shoot from the hip gambling with the country mentality.
McCain is Bush.
I believe Megan's point was that $1 billion in aid does nothing to address the underlying problem while also being totally inadequate to alleviate the symptoms.
That does not imply that McCain has a better idea. I know it's hard for all the Obama true believers to grasp, but it's possible, even likely, that neither candidate has a good answer.
Jim
If we had only helped Russia in the way that we are helping Georgia, we wouldn't be in the current position.
I point my finger at ... Newt Gingrich, tightwad and short-sighted, self-proclaimed seer.
(What? Too partisan?)
It seems a little disingenous to claim that this is "Obama's answer to Georgia". Since he said earlier that..."And to countries like Georgia and the Ukraine, I think we have to insist that they are free to join NATO if they meet the requirements, and they should have a membership action plan immediately to start bringing them in."
How is that saying the solution is to just give them a billion dollars for their economy? Obama did stress that the economic front was an important one for keeping Saakhashvili in power, but not that it was some sort of silver bullet solution to the Ossetia mess.
It's a prescriptive solution to a small part of the overall problem.
Agree or disagree about NATO expansion (which I think is stupid and dangerous), I think it's perfectly reasonable to call BS on Megan's point here.
I'm guessing the problem here is what's served under those little umbrellas? Kinda does away with reason. . .
Why oh why ---
"[I]nvite Georgia into NATO right away so that the next time that country has a conflict with its neighbour, we go to war against Russia, a nuclear power" is apparently the rest of Obama's plan, according to Nob Akimoto.
Because, there aren't actually any "requirements" to join NATO outlined in the Treaty of Washington, beyond, "get everyone in NATO to agree to let you join".
So, are you voting for the Libertarians, the Greens, or for war with Russia?
RE: a fellow NATO member, I think we are required to support each other in a conflict. Trade sanctions would be support. OTOH it would also facilitate some transfer of military hardware in peacetime which would, in itself, make an attack by Russia more problematic for them.
The Russians have probably just figured out that they can't go driving their tanks into neutral countries and still have a stock market. It would appear that they are going to have to choose which they value more: a western economy or a plenitude of nice little slaves. I wouldn't like to bet where they will come out on this at the moment.
Notice that their stock market crash wasn't caused by sanctions or UN policy, just fleeing investors. The current question is more whether we allow Ukraine into NATO than about Georgia. If the Russians want to reconstruct their empire in all of its glory, then sooner rather than later they will be after Poland, which is already a NATO member, and then we shall see what we shall see.
There will be another conflict in Ukraine. There is a sizable chunk of the country that is 60% Russian, strategically important, and historically Russian (it was ceded to Ukraine for administrative purposes during the USSR era). It may not happen via invasion (I'm betting through some type of vote or other type of internal agitation), but it will happen.
And given the west's reluctance at projecting their own power, why should Russia back away? 10 years down the road, no one will care.
But it will set the stage for China appropriating large swaths of Siberia (parts of which used to be part of China a few centuries ago). Given that there are 10 million Russian citizens in this large area, some significant Chinese migration (legal or otherwise) could bring some interesting times.
There's no material difference between Obama and McCain on dealing with Russia. That's why you kept hearing Obama say, "I agree with Senator McCain...".
That's unfortunate both candidates are committed to seeing Georgia and Ukraine brought into Nato. That's insane. Ukraine is where Russian leaders have their beach resorts, and it's where Russia's Black Sea Fleet is headquartered. Georgia is the birthplace of Stalin and has long been inextricably connected with Russia. The U.S. entering into a defense pact with either of these countries is ludicrous. They are too deep into Russia's legitimate sphere of influence to be worth us going to war with Russia over them. It would be like Russia starting a war with us over Mexico.
How much equity do we get for that? I am sure that housing prices there can only go up?
I think the libertarian position is that since there's no market for global warming then it can't be happening and even if it is happening, then this would create a market for reversing it and that's all that's needed.
I'm completely serious that really does seem to be what they believe.
It seems like almost every week now Megan blogs drunk on a Thursday or Friday night then disappears for several days.
Not a good sign.
I love that, clearly, Megan was a few drinks in when posting this, yet everyone has responded so seriously.
Well many European countries don't want to invite Georgia into NATO, or even designate it as a candidate; so it is not joining anyway, no matter who wins the election.
For the same reason, McCain's anti-UN "League of Democracies" would be: USA, Iraq, Afghanistan and maybe Australia and a few Eastern Europe countries.
"I love that, clearly, Megan was a few drinks in when posting this, yet everyone has responded so seriously. "
Well, that would explain some things. I've had a feeling for some time that Megan has a lot to say about how to best fight Russian imperialism, but is to shy to share it with us.
Fred writes: "That's unfortunate both candidates are committed to seeing Georgia and Ukraine brought into Nato. That's insane. Ukraine is where Russian leaders have their beach resorts, and it's where Russia's Black Sea Fleet is headquartered. Georgia is the birthplace of Stalin and has long been inextricably connected with Russia. The U.S. entering into a defense pact with either of these countries is ludicrous. They are too deep into Russia's legitimate sphere of influence to be worth us going to war with Russia over them. It would be like Russia starting a war with us over Mexico."
Here's (perhaps) a first. I agree with Fred on this one.
"then this would create a market for reversing it and that's all that's needed."
Um, but it kind of is, M. Farris. The acid rain market works great. When was the last time you even heard the phrase "acid rain?"
Carbon futures have been trading in Chicago and New York since August. The first carbon allowance auction for electricity generators went down last Thursday on the East Coast.
The horse has left the barn. Carbon trading is a reality; carbon has a public price in North America.
Soon a large portion of Canada, the Western USA and maybe several Mexican states will begin to trade as well, even in the absence of over-arching national legislation.
Carbon finance will improve & soon provide the means/incentives to bid the old economy adieu by 2050.
We're all Georgians now, except the South Ossetian's.
There are certain things American politicians can't say. A good sized library couldn't contain them all. Like say, when Stalin drew Georgia's borders..... well never mind.
Send some money, pay a few people off, leave the illusions intact. Obama can't change that.
John McCain racked up more than 300 demerits at the Naval Academy and graduated 5th from the bottom of his 899 member class. Widely known for serial adulteries, McCain married Cindy Hensley one month after he divorced his first family. Cindy’s father, Jim Hensley, a wealthy beer distributor, was convicted of falsifying records to illegally distribute liquor.
Cindy confessed to drug addiction and to stealing drugs.
Sarah Palin paraded her 17 year old, pregnant, unmarried daughter, Bristol, on the stage at the RNC. (In fact, Sarah Palin’s first child, Track, was born when she had been married about seven months). There are abuse of office charges against Palin. She and McCain have lied in their speeches and McCain has flip flopped on many issues. All of this while she professed to be a Christian.
This pair and their families in the White House would provide much fodder for the tabloids . Such terrible examples for our young people.
So why do so many conservative preachers and church goers support these two? This President and this Congress have not conserved our tax money, our international reputation nor the environment.
It seems like almost every week now Megan blogs drunk on a Thursday or Friday night then disappears for several days.
If I had left a public record of how wrong I was over the years about pretty much everything I'd get drunk alot and disappear also. Or maybe spend all day hoping that post-singularity nanobots can go back in time and rewrite my blog like Glenn Reynolds does.
I just want to say that I agree with Fred and MLJ. Both McCain and Obama are off in the weeds on this one. Stock up on your iodide pills if the US pushes Georgia into NATO.
It seems like almost every week now Megan blogs drunk on a Thursday or Friday night then disappears for several days.
That's an interesting way of spinning "Goes out with friends at the start of the weekend and then doesn't resume her day job until Monday."
If I had left a public record of how wrong I was over the years about pretty much everything I'd get drunk alot and disappear also. Or maybe spend all day hoping that post-singularity nanobots can go back in time and rewrite my blog like Glenn Reynolds does.
Or maybe spend the weekend casting impotent slurs at people who left you behind in the search for fame and fortune. Question: How is your life improved by this activity?
I think I've figured out who Mouse is. He's the shy little guy who had a crush on Megan during their freshman year but never had the courage to ask her out because she's 9 inches taller than he is.
So here he is all these years later defending her honor. It's sort of sweet, I suppose, but she can defend herself. She knows how to shoot a shotgun, after all.
So this is where really snarky people who are wrong about everything come?
Meagan I've noticed a recent trend in people (like you) who are wrong about everything and voted for Bush twice, instead of simply apologizing to the rest of mankind you seem to be digging your feet in even deeper, growing increasingly sarcastic and blaming the rest of us for your mistakes.
Any one sane is voting for Obama this election. Period.
P.S. Meagan please don't start predicting the economy is going to recover after this bailout package either. Because it's not. For a long time.
Maybe Obama can send some community organizers to help. The awful truth is that Obama is dumb as post. That he could think sending a billion dollars over to rebuild Georgia after Russia destroyed it is mind boggling.
It is interesting how people call McCain a war monger. Obama's weakness will get us into a lot more wars than McCain bellicosity. It is easy to imagine that the Iranians and Russians are laughing at the thought of dealing with someone so in over his head. The problem is that no President, even one as dumb and as weak as Obama, can retreat forever. Eventually even they have to act. An Obama Presidency will be about two years of him running around the world looking confused while groveling and appeasing. Then at some point, probably in the last half of his term, one of our enemies will finally go to far and do something that even Obama cannot tolerate and we will have a war and it might be a really bad one. We will get a real war, not a low level insurgency but a real war with real consequences and casualties.
Hey, John, I don't think The One is dumb. I think he is intelligent, but his arrogance negates much of the value of his intelligence. Obama will likely get us into a war, for two reasons: one, he says really stupid things when he is pandering ("Jerusalem must remain an undivided capital" is exhibit 1); two, he is unable to admit mistakes (just ask his 'mistake-prone' staff). Both of those traits are serious handicaps in foreign policy.
Regarding the stupid words, IMHO he is too arrogant to spend time really understanding the context, as the Jerusalem kerfuffle so tellingly illustrates. It certainly isn't the lack of intellectual firepower on his part. And the inability to admit mistakes, well, that's arrogance first and foremost. The man is a loose cannon on foreign policy, and he'll get his **** in a wringer that will result in a nasty international showdown. Hide and watch.
"So this is where really snarky people who are wrong about everything come?"
Here or they're trolling Yglesias. The difference is, the people here aren't all that clever. They're mostly just slavishly devoted to "the cause".
It is beginning to look like the collective will is going to be for Obama. I suppose it is his backroom financial cronyism that bothers me the most. He isn't as subtle and his deals are more destructive than those of LBJ. John Althouse Cohen made fun of the bracelet that John McCain wore. His sobbing into a star of David after the demise of Israel is, well you get the idea. I imagine those with 'sanity and morality' will enjoy an education in the next few years.
So the US Congress is preparing to vote on the largest economic intervention since the Great Depression (or possibly ever), the financial contagion appears to be spreading overseas and our resident economics guru is completely AWOL. That's like Ambinder taking a breather on the evening of Nov. 4th.
To steal a phrase from Bush: Heckuva job Megan...
I think I've figured out who Mouse is. He's the shy little guy who had a crush on Megan during their freshman year but never had the courage to ask her out because she's 9 inches taller than he is.
Tch, tch, tch. So much guessing and so little use of plain facts. As a mouse, I am considerably shorter than 9" below Megan McArdle. Also, I went to a public high school with people who were more like you than her, for whatever that's worth.
So here he is all these years later defending her honor. It's sort of sweet, I suppose, but she can defend herself. She knows how to shoot a shotgun, after all.
More like trying to prevent you from destroying what little is left of yours. Also, you forgot the obligatory 2x4 reference there -- work on that, would you?
aMouse quotes and squeaks: "I think I've figured out who Mouse is. He's the shy little guy who had a crush on Megan during their freshman year but never had the courage to ask her out because she's 9 inches taller than he is.
Tch, tch, tch. So much guessing and so little use of plain facts. As a mouse, I am considerably shorter than 9" below Megan McArdle. Also, I went to a public high school with people who were more like you than her, for whatever that's worth."
High school? I was referring to college.
I went to a public high school, but I managed to make it to a college which is held in higher regard by "elitists" that the one Megan went to is. Go figure. I had a great time there.
I resorted to guessing because as far as I can recall you've never said much about yourself here. I guess you have nothing to say. In any event you tend to say nothing about everything.