It has come to my attention that someone posted as me in the comments section, claiming that I had registered as a Democrat. This is not true; sorry for anyone who was misled. I've never registered as a member of a major party, and I find it hard to imagine doing so for other than very temporary reasons, like having some desperately strong preference in a primary.
On a related note, a couple of people have asked me why I didn't just go up to New York to vote--or, more practically, since I'm covering the election, why I didn't vote absentee. The answer is that I am not a legal resident of New York. It is therefore illegal to vote there.
This is not particularly urgent, since my voting "options" were New York and DC; in both places, the question is not who will carry the state, but whether Obama will get a mere 80% or so of the vote, or achieve Saddam Hussein-like vote totals*.
*Before you say it--no, not by fixing the election, by being so popular that he achieves fairly what Saddam achieved by force.
Copyright © 2009 by The Atlantic Monthly Group. All rights reserved.
...and the necessity of cracking down on impostors becomes impossible to ignore.
Are you not voting? There are other things on the ballot than the Presidential race.
To be fair, he's still achieving it by force - through taxation of other people.
"whether Obama will get a mere 80% or so of the vote, or achieve Saddam Hussein-like vote totals"
obscene analogy
Local Elections Megan. That is the question you should have focused on.
Saddam was actually pretty popular among a broad swath of the Iraqi population. Which of course is not to excuse being a vile, murdering despot.
To be fair, he's still achieving it by force - through taxation of other people.
Actually, that would be McCain who's doing that since he took public financing.
You're worrying about this too much. Just send me your ballot and I'll fill it out for you.
Well, then I retract my harsh, perhaps even rude, comment several posts back.
But aren't comments here monitored? I realize that it is hard to stop people posing as one of the regular commenters, but surely the monitor could stop fake Megan McArdles.
Every Obama fan should be outraged that McArdle would compare BHO to Saddam in any way. If he were still alive and running for U.S. president, Saddam would be behind by ten points and would have a few hundred million dollars less in donations than BHO.
"...and the necessity of cracking down on impostors becomes impossible to ignore."
Are you talking about blog comments, or about ACORN registering dead people, 12 year olds, cartoon characters and family pets?
"in both places, the question is not who will carry the state, but whether Obama will get a mere 80% or so of the vote, or achieve Saddam Hussein-like vote totals*."
yikes, you pulled a palin!
Are you talking about blog comments, or about ACORN registering dead people, 12 year olds, cartoon characters and family pets?
That would be a funny joke, if there was actually a voter fraud problem in this country. But since absolutely every shred of evidence indicates that there's not, it's not funny. You know what else isn't funny? The active campaign by the Republican party to suppress the black vote for the last three elections! Not funny.
I have volunteered at my local precinct and I vow to you that I will not allow any cartoon characters vote. Since I do not live in Tune Town, I do not suspect this to be much of a problem. But, there are many family pets in my neighborhood, so that is a concern. I am especially concerned because lately, I have been seeing many pictures of cats with captions on the internet and judging by their spelling abilities I do not think they should be allowed to vote.
I have a simple rule though. It is "two legs good, four legs bad." Its modified from this account I read where animals did get to vote. Frighteningly, many of these animals had marxist tendencies, so I think its pretty clear who would be getting the household pet vote and why they must be stopped.
I'd like to echo that there is more going on than President. For those with Congressional races, Senate races, these are important. Local races are meaningful too.
And of course all of the propositions.
"whether Obama will get a mere 80% or so of the vote, or achieve Saddam Hussein-like vote totals"
Megan's site is one of the best places to go for the Libertarian take on the news. She's sort of the Joseph Goebbels of the Libertarian movement.
"But since absolutely every shred of evidence indicates that there's not, it's not funny."
First, there's clearly a registration fraud problem.
As for evidence of a vote fraud problem, wouldn't "every shred of evidence" include the Vote From Home and Vote Today Ohio groups? There might be a lot more 'shreds' if the main stream media was doing their job half as well as Palestra.net, a college network.
But the question I keep wondering about is why ACORN is deliberately set up to encourage false registrations. They like to paint themselves as the victim of rogue employees, but they would never let a corporation get away with such a weak, illogical defense. Over many election cycles, ACORN has consistently been set up to encourage employees to collect a large number of registrations regardless of authenticity. Employees know that they face no penalties for false registrations, only rewards for large numbers of names to turn in.
Even if the people running ACORN weren't smart enough to anticipate problems in advance from such a bad incentive system, they surely would have figured it out by now, after repeated problems over more than a decade, if they actually wanted to make the process more effective for all legitimate voters. Instead, they seem to be trying to overwhelm the system. How does that increase voter confidence and thus encourage poor people to show up and vote?
Ann:
Do you pay attention to anything but wing-nut propaganda? ACORN has to, by law, turn in all registrations. So you can have Republican mischief makers fill out false and misleading registrations and ACORN still has to turn those in. Get it now?!?!
False registrations can never be entirely prevented, but incentives can be set up so that employees know that fake registrations are likely to be caught, and that there will be systematic penalties for those that collect too many of them. Many of the bad forms were filled out by the employees themselves, taking names from the phone book or filling in the starting line for the Dallas Cowboys. ACORN's bad incentives cost it money, even though part of the cost is shoved onto taxpayers. Why is ACORN paying to increase the number of false registrations?
I would've gone with "Hugo Chavez-like vote totals" but that's only because that seems to get the right-wingers more riled up.
Ah yes, JK'sC, when left-wing activist groups get caught pulling nationwide electioneering shennanigans, it's actually the fault of Republicans... somehow.
Because everything bad in the world is the fault of the right and everything of the left is truth and light.
Do you ever stop to think that maybe you are a wingnut?
(Just a helpful reminder: there are wing-nuts on both wings.)
So you can have Republican mischief makers fill out false and misleading registrations and ACORN still has to turn those in.
I'd like to see some stats on the party affiliations of the "misleading" registrations. I suspect there are far more Ds than Rs on them. But I'd like to know.
Why is ACORN paying to increase the number of false registrations?
My guess is so that they can be sure the MSM can continue to produce stories like this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/05/AR2008100502524.html
Republicans: give up! You're surrounded. It's no use trying to vote.
Damn, and all this time I thought it was the black vote that was being "suppressed."
The active campaign by the Republican party to suppress the black vote for the last three elections!
Speaking of shreds of evidence, what the hell are you talking about?
Seriously, I mean. Everything anyone says is now a racist dogwhistle or a secret racial stratagem, and I'd like some kind of evidence that these racial motivations exist outside the minds of left-wingers.
Because, you know, Saul Alinski wasn't black, and Willie Horton really did commit a horrific crime while on furlough.
I have a simple rule though. It is "two legs good, four legs bad."
How well does that work for absentee ballots? You can register in Oregon with nothing but the last 4 digits of an SSN. It happens that I am not voting multiple times in multiple states, but there's nothing that would stop me.
Re: The Saddam vote comparison.
After 8 years of Bush being likened to Hitler, etc - I find this selective outrage hilarious.
Ann writes: "False registrations can never be entirely prevented, but incentives can be set up so that employees know that fake registrations are likely to be caught, and that there will be systematic penalties for those that collect too many of them. Many of the bad forms were filled out by the employees themselves, taking names from the phone book or filling in the starting line for the Dallas Cowboys. ACORN's bad incentives cost it money, even though part of the cost is shoved onto taxpayers. Why is ACORN paying to increase the number of false registrations?"
Seriously, Ann, why do you give a fat flying fuck? Obviously you're not concerned about ACORN being run inefficiently. And if these false registrations never end up as FALSE VOTES, then what exactly is the damage and why should anyone really care? If there are 10,000 Willy Wonkas registered and none of them vote, why would any sane, rational adult give a rat's ass?
I realize you're a member of the United Wingnut Front and you're required to spend a certain number of hours per day perspiring heavily while worrying about this sort of garbage, but give it up. No one outside of the UWF takes this crap seriously. No one. Not this year.
"And if these false registrations never end up as FALSE VOTES"
If.... Ah, there's the rub.
First, ACORN isn't just wasting their own resources, since they expect local election officials to sort out the messes they keep creating. Much of the cost goes to the taxpayer.
But my big concern is that they may have a plan, either to discourage certain voters (as Admin User suggested), or to so overwhelm the system that it can't catch voter fraud at all, allowing many false but seemingly plausible registrations to go through and be used to cast votes. Perhaps they're hoping that there will be no time to hunt down illegal immigrant or convicted felon registrations, for example, because election officials are so busy weeding out children, pets and famous sport figures.
We've already heard testimony that ACORN registered one person more than 70 times. Why couldn't a dedicated group of supporters register at many different addresses and then just make the rounds of the polls on election (and through early voting)? If election officials can't keep up with the flood of new registrations, then multiple voting should be feasible, and how will we know about it, when any attempts to investigate are shouted down as racist?
If ACORN doesn't have some sort of plan, they why are they doing all this? Are you saying that they're really just that stupid and have nothing better to do? Or are they simply creating chaos so that they can protest later about long lines and voter intimidation?
Ann waxes paranoiac: "But my big concern is that they may have a plan, either to discourage certain voters (as Admin User suggested), or to so overwhelm the system that it can't catch voter fraud at all, allowing many false but seemingly plausible registrations to go through and be used to cast votes. Perhaps they're hoping that there will be no time to hunt down illegal immigrant or convicted felon registrations, for example, because election officials are so busy weeding out children, pets and famous sport figures."
Tell you what, chuckles, get back to me when there's a Cheney's-heart sized scintilla of evidence that any of that has actually OCCURRED.
In the meantime, since you and your fellow Republicans have never given one sweet damn about the massive (and PROVEN) efforts of your fellow Republican OFFICE HOLDERS to disenfranchise black voters, you should be aware of just how hollow your "concern" for the integrity of the electoral system is. Let's face it, you don't care a whit.
"If ACORN doesn't have some sort of plan, they why are they doing all this? Are you saying that they're really just that stupid and have nothing better to do?"
They're doing it because they want to increase voter participation, O disingenuous one. They do what they can to point out fraudulent registrations - that's been seen over and over again in any balanced story about the issue.
They think the service of adding huge numbers of new voters to the process is worth the negligible (and wholly undemonstrated by you or any other GOP mouthpiece) "risk" of Mickey Mouse or Babe Ruth voting.
I realize government-by-irrational-fear is Dumbya's way, and you're a two-time Bush voter, but come on. This ACORN crap is silly even by Dumbya standards. It harbingers that a "President McCain" would raise Dumbya's stupidity to a new level.
Good thing he's about to get the asskicking of his life. Election Night is going to make him wish he was back in the camp eating cockroaches.
"you and your fellow Republicans have never given one sweet damn about the massive (and PROVEN) efforts of your fellow Republican OFFICE HOLDERS to disenfranchise black voters"
I care very much about 'massive' and 'proven' efforts to disenfranchise black voters. Can you give me more information on them?
And if, in the midst of all the name-calling, you can explain to me the logic that you claim to see behind ACORN's failure to implement simple common-sense measures to prevent their workers from making up lists of names or getting the same person to register more than 70 times, I'd appreciate it. I can see the advantages of registering legitimate voters. The question is why ACORN is going to so much effort to add fake names to the lists. That does nothing to increase 'voter participation' if, as you claim, the fraudulent registrations don't lead to votes.
Ann replies: "I care very much about 'massive' and 'proven' efforts to disenfranchise black voters. Can you give me more information on them?"
No. I'm not your daddy. Learn how to use Google and stop begging for information WorldNetDaily doesn't give you. If you genuinely cared about ballot access you'd already be familiar with these efforts. But then maybe you're actually Katherine Harris and you're just blowing smoke.
"I can see the advantages of registering legitimate voters. The question is why ACORN is going to so much effort to add fake names to the lists. That does nothing to increase 'voter participation' if, as you claim, the fraudulent registrations don't lead to votes."
If, as I claim, the fraudulent registrations don't lead to votes, then by the "logic" you claim to care about this concern of yours is baseless, paranoid nonsense. And since ACORN is in fact going to a great deal of effort to check the registrations and sorting out the dubious ones before presenting them to state authorities, I think you're being more than silly here. I think you're being dishonest.
"President Obama," Ann. Say it out loud, right now. Get used to the sound of it. You're going to be hearing it a lot.
What bugs me is that many people see registering phony or dead people as an amusing misdemeanor, while expressing horror at somehow keeping someone from voting. In a practical sense, they amount to the same thing. If I vote for McCain, and 'Mickey Mouse' votes for Obama, my vote has been cancelled, and hence, stolen from me - just as surely as if I had been physically prevented from voting.
Humble apologies for giving credit to the Democrat registration post. In mitigation, I was mislead by your seemingly desperate antipathy to John McCain. I myself judge him the second best candidate in the election, but he did seem the best in the Republican primaries.
I'm with Ann. I would appreciate it if someone could give a good faith explanation of why ACORN is willing to pay for large numbers of bogus registrations. Once could be accident, twice could be incompetence, but on this scale it's clearly by design.
ian writes: "What bugs me is that many people see registering phony or dead people as an amusing misdemeanor, while expressing horror at somehow keeping someone from voting. In a practical sense, they amount to the same thing. If I vote for McCain, and 'Mickey Mouse' votes for Obama, my vote has been cancelled, and hence, stolen from me - just as surely as if I had been physically prevented from voting."
Horseshit. If someone is prevented from voting, there's an ACTUAL VICTIM. If Mickey Mouse is registered and never votes, no harm done, chuckles. I'm surprised I have to explain this to people who are (at least) intelligent enough to write complete sentences.
Show me that the bogus ACORN registrations lead to actual VOTING FRAUD and you have a case. Fail to do that and you're just spreading the Republican manure. I'm not stupid enough to swallow that stuff.
And SG writes: "I would appreciate it if someone could give a good faith explanation of why ACORN is willing to pay for large numbers of bogus registrations. Once could be accident, twice could be incompetence, but on this scale it's clearly by design."
No matter how many times you're given the explanation you won't think it's a good faith one, but one more time. ACORN cares about getting as many VALID registrations as possible. They accept the risk of bogus ones, though they try to sort them out (as I explained above) before presenting them to state authorities. They accept this risk because there's really no evidence that the "risk" ever amounts to ACTUAL VOTER FRAUD.
I realize this is all too complicated to make sense to Palin supporters, but those of us in the reality-based community have no problem with it.
(Just as John McCain had no problem praising ACORN before he decided to use them as a race-baiting tool in his despicable campaign.)
Diversity writes: "I was mislead by your seemingly desperate antipathy to John McCain. I myself judge him the second best candidate in the election, but he did seem the best in the Republican primaries."
He was. Which just goes to show what a revolting pack of sniveling bozos the Republican Party has become.
My favorite GOP-related rumor of the past few days has McCain (in the nightmarish and remote chance that he wins) appointing Rudy Giuliani to head the Department of Homeland Stupidity. The horror!
ACORN cares about getting as many VALID registrations as possible. They accept the risk of bogus ones, though they try to sort them out (as I explained above) before presenting them to state authorities. They accept this risk because there's really no evidence that the "risk" ever amounts to ACTUAL VOTER FRAUD.
You may be making this claim in good faith, but it's not logical. If ACORN only cared about valid registrations it would be trivial to change their incentive structure to get it - only pay for valid registrations. Sure, there would still be honest mistakes but you wouldn't have employees making up forms or encouraging registrants to fill out forms multiple times. And I guarantee that if ACORN only paid for valid registrations, they would register more actual voters than they are now. The fact that they continue to pay for invalid registrations very clearly shows that they find value in invalid registrations. What is that value?
Furthermore, you're making the claim that registration fraud doesn't matter. It then follows that we shouldn't register voters. Are you (or ACORN) arguing to abolish voter registration? If you're not arguing against the concept of voter registration then there's simply no good argument for encouraging fraudulent registrations.
Would elections be fairer with or without registration? If you require voter registration but the registrars get overwhelmed with bogus registrations to the point where they cease to function, doesn't that practically eliminate the voter registration process? Since voter registration laws are statewide, but voter registration is typically done locally, don't ACORN's actions provide a mechanism to selectively disable the registration process?
Or to ask the question another way, what would you differently than ACORN if you wanted to shut down the voter registration process in certain localities?
But I acknowledge that, while I don't see an honest explanation for ACORN's actions, an honest explanation may exist. That's why I'm honestly asking the question of what it might be. But your explanation just doesn't fit the facts.
SG replies: "You may be making this claim in good faith, but it's not logical. If ACORN only cared about valid registrations it would be trivial to change their incentive structure to get it - only pay for valid registrations. Sure, there would still be honest mistakes but you wouldn't have employees making up forms or encouraging registrants to fill out forms multiple times. And I guarantee that if ACORN only paid for valid registrations, they would register more actual voters than they are now."
You're the illogical one here, chuckles. Getting more people out in the field is the best way to get more registrations. Of course some workers will abuse the system, but your suggestion would require a large staff of supervisors checking each and every registration. It's not cost-effective, especially when you're dealing with an organization whose methods have ALREADY been shown to be effective in producing huge numbers of registered voters. Which is, of course, what actually pisses off Republicans and their well-named "base."
"Furthermore, you're making the claim that registration fraud doesn't matter. It then follows that we shouldn't register voters. Are you (or ACORN) arguing to abolish voter registration?"
Are you really this stupid or is it an act? Of COURSE we should register voters. We should do it to avoid VOTING FRAUD, which is an act which can actually harm the system. A million Mickey Mice being registered doesn't bother me in the least. Unless and until some member of the wingnut contingent here shows some reason to believe that ACORN is turning these Mice into actual fraudulent votes all you're doing is passing gas and holding the covers over your own heads. Which is a good metaphor for the entire conservative movement's range of activities these days.
but your suggestion would require a large staff of supervisors checking each and every registration
No, I'm suggesting that ACORN match their submitted registrations against the published voter rolls (which are a matter of public record) and only pay for the valid registrations. If you want to maximize valid registrations, it's the only intelligent way to do it. It requires no more people and should require no more effort, as they should be doing this anyways as a quality control measure. They'd get far more bang for the buck this way, assuming their goal really is to register voters.
And if you're really asserting that we need to register voters to avoid fraud but fraudulent registrations don't matter, I'd be little more reticent about throwing insults. Think about that for a bit and see if you can find the flaw in your logic.
If you really can't see the flaw, then don't bother responding. I'm trying to find an honest explanation for ACORN's activities yet you're making illogical, inconsistent arguments and hurling insults. If that's the best you can do, then you're just a dishonest hack trying to justify voter fraud.
I really want to see some evidence that 1 Mickey Mouse (real or imagined) has voted in any recent election. I can't find any empirical evidence. Or that there are 1000 Mickey Mice ON THE ROLLS via false registrations. All there seems to be is innuendo.
But there is evidence that voter rolls have been purged of real live voters in order to supress voter turnout in places like Florida that always seems to be close at the national level. All of this argument about ACORN registrations and liberal voter fraud is just more Republican gas and blather. Every system has flaws, but the important part in all this is that real people get registered to vote. Would you be this adamant in your pursuit of this perceived boogieman if the RNC got caught putting 5000 Rush Limbaughs on the rolls? The idea is as crazy as the argument.
Another pawn in the culture wars to take our eyes off the really big issues of the day. It is truly stunning the amount of time Republicans spend on issues like this because they would rather get to power by any means necessary than actually govern in any meaningful way.
The economy, foreign policy, energy, education - lets hear some policy talk about these issue besides slogans and jingo like DRILL BABY DRILL! or BOMB BOMB BOMB, BOMB BOMB IRAN! or SOCIALISM!
And Megan, the Saddam Hussein analogy is a cheap shot, no matter what the intent. If you have to qualify (*) a statement, you knew it would be misconstrued.
Leaking Geek:
Would you be so sanguine if the RNC was caught putting 5000 Rush Limbaughs on the rolls? I doubt that.
According to the New York Times, there are some 200,000 newly registered voters in Ohio whose voter registration information failed to match other database information. No one thinks that all 200,000 are fraudulent, but I don't think anyone honestly thinks the number is zero either as there are acknowledged duplicates among that 200,000. ACORN claims to have registered almost 250,000 people this year in Ohio.
According to the AP, ACORN registered 53,000 people in Missouri this year and registration officials are bogged down because of the number of questionable registrations.
ACORN claims to have registered 1.3 million people this year and its registration efforts are under investigation in at least 13 states this election cycle . Invalid voters are known have registered and voted absentee in Ohio. (I could give more links but the post gets lost in moderation limbo). If you're unaware of the facts, it's because you've chosen not to look for them.
I think it's important that everybody be able to accept the election results - especially after 8 years of "selected not elected" and "Diebold stole Ohio" (please spare me the notion that this is a Republican thing - it's a loser thing). ACORN's process invites this kind of thinking. Their process encourages this result and it's corrosive to our society.
Any implementable process will have some number false positives (ineligible votes being cast) and false negatives (eligible voters being denied the vote). Both are bad (a vote is lost), but I believe false positives are worse. A false negative has some recourse (retrieve your ID, cast a provisional ballot, worst case is fix it next time), but a false positive invalidates a voter without their knowledge - there is no opportunity for recourse. Also, it's much easier to scale up false positives thereby altering the election results.
FWIW, I also think purely electronic voting is a bad idea, even if it were foolproof, simply because it invites conspiracy theories about election fraud. Nor do I think that Obama will owe his victory to fraud, although I believe there will be more than usual amount. I do think it's quite possible that some local elections will decided by fraud, however.
I think having an electoral process that people (by and large) have faith in is far more important than the results of any particular election. A non-negligible number of people on the left lost faith after the past 8 years. I believe some non-negligible number of people on the right are losing faith this year. This road ends in a very bad place.
freddie-
That would be a funny joke, if there was actually a voter fraud problem in this country. But since absolutely every shred of evidence indicates that there's not, it's not funny.
To demonstrate 'voting fraud' would require a stringent ID verification program at both the registration and voting levels in all 50 states (combined with a multi-state cross-check of registrations and ID). Which party is preventing this from being enacted?
Obama can't even prevent his 'illegal alien' aunt from donating to his campaign.
Meanwhile, we already know that there have been illegal voters here in Ohio- which our Dem Governor and Dem Sec. of State choose to ignore...
SG replies: "I'm suggesting that ACORN match their submitted registrations against the published voter rolls (which are a matter of public record) and only pay for the valid registrations."
So you expect field workers to wait to get paid until the rolls are published? That's your idea of a serious suggestion?
That's the dumbest argument you've made yet. But I'm sure you can top it, the way you're going.
"Would you be so sanguine if the RNC was caught putting 5000 Rush Limbaughs on the rolls? I doubt that. "
Damn, and I didn't even have to wait very long.
That's the dumbest argument you've made yet. But I'm sure you can top it, the way you're going.
No, clearly my dumbest moment here was when I thought you were interested in good faith discussion and not just trying to defend fraud that benefits your party.
My second dumbest was thinking that I didn't need to spell things out at the simplest possible level for you to understand. (Go look at how just about every other organization handles commission-based workers to see how my proposal works in practice. Hint: It's called an "advance").
But if your argument is the best defense that can be made of ACORN's practices, I feel justified in my belief that ACORN is (at the least) attempting to subvert the voter registration process. Thanks for the confirmation.
Megan,
I too am not, nor have been registered in either major party. I really can't imagine why people still register as and consider themselves to be Democrats or Republicans. I have been happily registered Non- Partisan for years.