Perhaps I'm getting too testy. For the past two presidential elections, I've voted for the winning candidate. For the past two elections, I've experienced near-immediate buyer's remorse. And for the past two elections, I've been saddened and appalled to watch the people who voted with me display behavior they would be ashamed to find in their three year old in any other context.
I don't mean celebrating their win. I mean celebrating their opponents loss. I mean taking more obvious enjoyment in the fact that the people they disagree with are unhappy, developing fantasies of being the boot stomping into those peoples' faces--forever. Four years ago (or was it six?) I told my commenters to stop gloating, only to be dismissed as a nannying concern troll. They'd earned it, you see. After years of abuse from the other side, they deserved to take joy in the disappointment of others.
How'd that work out, guys?
Every time we have an election, the partisans confuse the fact that the independents disliked the opposition candidate, with the idea that the independents joined their party. The independents did not want to stomp the Democrats in 2004, and they do not want to stomp the Republicans now. They are not interested in advancing the electoral fortunes of the Democratic Party, any more than they were preparing to hand the Republicans a "permanent majority" in 2004. And when the various parties act as if it is so--as if the independents had actually voted to join their power-hungry two-minutes-hate, rather than voting for the guy they thought would best shelter them from the vicissitudes of fate . . . well, for the last few elections, they've had their asses handed to them on a silver platter two years later.
I don't begrudge my fellow Obama supporters an excitement I certainly do not feel about the many exciting projects that may be undertaken with a large Democratic congressional majority. But I'm kind of ashamed at the meanness. The election of the President of the United States not a sports match, or a schoolyard battle for who's the biggest, meanest bully on the block. I wish so many Obama supporters were not acting as if it was. I especially wish they weren't doing so after complaining so bitterly that it wasn't fair four years ago. If Obama gets blindisded by an intractable financial crisis, those people will deserve every bit of nastiness that gets heaped on them two and four years hence. And the undoubtedly equally repulsive Republican gloating from people who really ought to have learned better will be no less nauseating for all that.
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Which supporters are you talking about? Commenters on partisan blogs? I've spoken with many Obama supporters over the past two days and haven't heard one mention of the GOP w/r/t their elation at Obama's election. I'd be careful from which pool of supporters you extrapolate such trends.
Megan, no one can plausibly say that Obama supporters have been "meaner" this election than Bush supporters were in 2004. Back then, we still had a lot of that "traitor" talk, you know? And that "you're with the terrorist" talk? And that "disrespecting the victims of 9/11 with your vote" talk?
One side practiced eliminationist rhetoric after a crushing electoral victory. And it wasn't my side. We've been much, much better than the Republicans were in 2004. It's not even close.
Which supporters are you talking about? Commenters on partisan blogs?
Seriously, post some links to those articles, editorials, and blogs so the good Obama supporters can pile on them for not displaying some grace.
If you're talking about random commenters on blogs, you know perhaps better than anyone else what kind of crap pools under the "comments" menu and how much importance to ascribe to it.
"The election of the President of the United States not a sports match, or a schoolyard battle for who's the biggest, meanest bully on the block."
Actually, it is. It is a contest, even a fight, with a winner and a loser. People are organized and energized by conflict. You can't take that out of them. What you can do is channel those emotions into a peaceful process. But it is a sort of bloodless civil war. It is meant to be.
@Megan - "The election of the President of the United States not a sports match, or a schoolyard battle for who's the biggest, meanest bully on the block."
Oh, but it is...
You see, government is an instrument of force plain and simple. And since the people of this country, and indeed the world, decided long ago that the chief executive of our allegedly-chosen instrument of force should be the most powerful man in the world, it follows that our presidental election is no different from "...a sports match or a schoolyard battle for who's the biggest, meanest bully on the block."
This is exactly why the "winning team" gloats on so. They believe that the losers are about to get their comeuppance - and then some. They envision their elected swooping in as a vengeful god and laying waste to the non-believers.
Force begets force because it can't create anything else.
As someone who also has voted for the winner in the last two elections, I can assure you that there were plenty of Republicans that I would have supported for President over Obama. Unfortunately none of them were on the ballot.
Likewise, Republicans that believe they only lost because McCain wasn't conservative enough are missing the point. Nominating Palin in 2012 will not bring the Republicans back to power.
Somebody call Bill Maher.....
Will you marry me? You are a genius.....
[my] near-immediate buyer's remorse [about Obama]
If this had been an option on Intrade, lots of people could have made a lot of money. It was a safer bet than Pennsylvania voting for Obama.
Yes, it's always amusing to hear about "mandates" -- from roughly half the population.
Let them have their fun. It's fleeting.
Blog comments and bloggers themselves are from a small subsection of the population, and from my experience, they seem to be the subsection of the population that is more emotionally immature but still politically engaged. That, along with the anonymity and the lack of face to face contact simply leads to the worst sides of these people being revealed. I discuss politics with a lot of people outside the online arena, and even though the divisions are usually deep, I have never seen a nasty face to face confrontation that even comes close to the levels seen in forums like this.
In other words, Megan, I think you are overreacting a bit- I don't think the problem is all that widespread in general, and I don't think there is anything that can be done about the online world anyway other than practicing what you preach.
For the past two presidential elections, I've voted for the winning candidate.
That would George Bush, Jr. and George Bush, Jr., since you couldn't be bothered to register this time around. Putting aside for a moment that Bush won neither (as many of us reality-based see it), all I'm seeing here is a bandwagon rider than anything close to a libertarian.
For the past two elections, I've experienced near-immediate buyer's remorse.
Uh, nice try Sparky. You were pretty jazzed about George Bush Jr.'s Iraq Invasion as I recall. You also seemed to think that wildly regressive tax cuts would turn the U.S. into some adolescent Objectivist utopia. How'd that work out, guy?
But I'm kind of ashamed at the meanness.
Please don't hit me with a 2 x 4!!
Oh, and a single example would be awesome. Thanks in advance.
I voted for McCain, but I'm not upset that Obama won. I like McCain's policies better, but objectively speaking, I can see that Obama was a better candidate from an ability to govern perspective. Obama built up a massive organization for his campaign much better than McCain did and McCain had trouble holding onto his base while Obama had its full support. Even if McCain won, he would have been hamstrung by a Democratic controlled congress, and a whacked out conservative Republican fringe that he couldn't distance himself from and still win the primary.
In McCain's favor, he gave the best and most gracious concession speech I've ever heard.
Ms. McArdle: How could you have voted "with" anybody this year when you didn't actually vote at all?
Who are these people who are behaving so badly? Are there any examples you can share?
Pardon me for sticking on this one point, but I find a contradiction in claiming adulthood and admitting to Bush '04.
This was the essense behind my argument for voting for Bob Barr this year. I don't like the policies of Barack Obama, and I certainly don't like how Republicans have moved away from their traditional small government and personal responsibility platform.
If I had still voted for John McCain, the Republicans would not have seen that as a vote AGAINST Barack Obama (which it would have been). They would have seen it as part of a mandate to lead in the direction they had choosen (to the left).
If I had voted for Barack Obama (as a vote against McCain), then I would have been seen as one of his followers, giving him more incentive to do what I don't want. More importantly, that would have signaled the Republicans incorrectly, that they need to move farther to the left to win next time.
I voted for Bob Barr, not only as a vote against both Obama and McCain, but also in an effort to SIGNAL Republicans, that if they want to get my vote back, they need to move back towards the right.
Before we can even begin to discuss the gruesomeness of the false equivalence that exhausts the entire range of theoretically possible substantive content of this post, we'll need to be provided with a single example of what on earth Megan could possibly be talking about.
Incidentally, when was Godwin's law modified to stipulate t=0? Because one might have expected some nominal disagreement, let alone several rounds of rhetorical escalation, before anyone would equate "taking...obvious enjoyment in the fact that the people they disagree with are unhappy" -- i.e., schadenfreude, which let's even grant for the sake of argument is always and only unhealthy, though that's debatable -- with "developing fantasies of being the boot stomping into those peoples' faces--forever."
Between this and the "mandate" post (answer: the scope of a mandate is a function of the scale of an electoral victory...um, obviously), I'd say it's clearly time for a week off.
We've been much, much better than the Republicans were in 2004. It's not even close.
Give it time. It's early yet
Well, Megan, judging from the comments section here, I think the answer to the question in your post's title is "no".
For the most part Obama voters have been okay to me online. Certainly better than they were before he won. One even told me something like "I told my friends I met a McCain supporter online and that he's actually a pretty okay guy", for which I thanked him.
Still I went to the Christian Science Monitor's site and they had a profile of an 18-year-old McCain voter and activist type. I thought it was interesting as the young are so strongly for Obama. However the comments were basically bashing this girl all to heck and I think that continued after Obama won. In fairness there were several Obama supporters who decidedly disliked that and said so. And a few other places I've seen people indicating a vote for McCain was a sign you were retarded or racist. (The pro-Obama side seems to be the most into retard-bashing, which understand I don't blame him for that at all)
But still mostly they've been okay.
You, an Obama supporter? You didn't even bother to vote! Quit yer whining, you Libertarian sheep in goat's clothing!
I've been ignoring partisans since Tuesday morning. It's been really lovely. I recommend you all do the same.
One thing I'm wondering about the people swaggering about this (and this applies equally to any election)... Did they have any part in it themselves? Or are they just a bunch of semiambulatory drunks in a sports bar thumping their chests because some guy they never met made a touchdown?
Megan, it's almost as if you’re suggesting politics isn’t about the selfless advocacy of superior public policy. Or that people let their political beliefs become an extension of their self-image.
The goal of politics, my dear, isn't about getting the trains to run on time. It's to stimulate that deep fissure in the brain that revels in the joy of the hunt. Who cares about being right? We'd rather be affirmed.
Who are these people who are behaving so badly? Are there any examples you can share?
Depends on where you live. I happen to live in the bastion of liberal politics in the NorthEast. If you so much as question any of Barack's ideas, you are treated like a pariah. After all, you might be a Republican enemy of the state. It would be funny if it weren't so stupid. But people in NYC will get very in-your-face and ugly about it. I had eight years of "Bush is Hitler", "Rethuglicans this and that", etc - and that's without me saying anything. I was afraid to. If Barack does the same thing as Bush, he'll get a pass. It's a blood sport.
Funny thing is I moved here from the conservative South under the impression that liberals are more accepting of different ideas and are less dogmatic because they are less religious. Turns out they are not less religious.
Although, the moderates on both sides don't behave like monkeys at the zoo.
Dan Koffler ---
Perhaps it's time you took a week off from philosophy class? Looks like not much has changed from our time at the YPU. What the heck are you talking about in that comment? I know, I know, I'm a mere mathematician and am not quite as rhetorically skilled as you, but seriously dude. This isn't a symposium article on Husserl's phenomenology.
The Republicans painted us as their enemies, as dyspatriots, and called our candidate "Osama." How filthy.
It would be a strategic error to fail to punish this.
One factual point: according to the 2004 American National Election Study (ANES), Kerry won independents.
The independents did not want to stomp the Democrats in 2004, and they do not want to stomp the Republicans now.
I'm pretty sure that's backwards -- they did and they do. This time around, independents were probably voting for the Democrats less than they were voting against the Republicans. I.e. they were more interested in stomping the Republicans than they were in promoting whatever flimflammery the Democrats happen to be advocating. And the reverse was true in 2004. The punitive stomping is the part the independents like -- it's the positive agenda that they get more iffy on. That's my read, at least.
Kat,
Do you think Obama would "get a pass" on torture? On secret internment camps? If you do, you are mistaken.
Examples, Megan. Evidence. Enough with these BS assertions.
The people strangers who congratulated me in the streets Tuesday night were happy about victory, not a word was said in criticism of Bush or McCain. You don't even have an anecdote. Shabby.
Solid Republican here who desperately wanted McCain to win.
I say this: a pre-condition for claiming "adult in the room" status in matters political is actually voting.
The Democrats I know are celebrating right now -- that's fine. They deserve their little victory dance, and I don't begrudge it them.
Things will turn around in time.
I probably should have expanded a bit. The adult issue in 2004 was truth in a democracy. Without that you have nothing. It doesn't matter where you stand on any particular issue ... if you are willing to accept a government that will lie you into war, you discard your very foundation.
By 2004 the Downing Street Memos were looking pretty true, and anyone buying into four more years was discarding democracy itself.
Megan, I invite you to compare the two conventions this year. One was civil, intelligent and patriotic, the other was a howling rabble of corrupt, plutocratic hatemongers. The difference was clear to anyone who watched the campaigns as well - one side traded in lies about Muslims, socialism and "real" America, the other respected McCain's service, did not spend time denouncing the ignorant and obvious bigotry of Palin, but rather called for a new approach and offered new policies. Consider these facts before you write such an offensive, ignorant and dishonest post. Your blogging of late has been shocking in its doom-ridden inability to show either coherence or logic. If you are depressed, you have my sympathy, but it does not justify some of your recent nonsense.
I have to agree with the majority here. Out in "Real America," at least, the mood is generally celebratory, not vindictive.
Of course, today's Columbus (OH) Dispatch had a letter from a McCain supporter who is still calling Obama "strongly anti-American," pro-terrorist, and all the other nonsense.
Great post, thanks
I can't comment on real america, as I'm out of the country. But I did have a Chinese citizen tell me she was excited because Obama's election would "help the world economy, especially in time of recession and help to encourage innovation."
Normally I'd want to go into a tirade about what kind of ridiculous crap is that?!?!? But instead I just told her I felt a little differently, I felt that both choices in the election were poor choices, and that if any good can come out of the outcome it will be because so many people are motivated and excited that hopefully change and innovation can start where it belongs -- with the individual and not with the government. The government will not innovate our way to helping the world's economy.
Our government only spends. And spends. Maybe we can spend more and take on even more debt. But if that's the case I really hope I'm not alive when we hit the ceiling.
Gene,
I've never read Husserl or really anything like Husserl in any respect except for being composed of letters and punctuation signs, so I wouldn't be able to judge the resemblance. What don't you understand? An assertion of equivalence between whatever it is Megan is cryptically referring to and the way GOP partisans conducted themselves last election (or this election) is not just false but gruesomely so. You betcha.
I should add, what's tying together this post with the rest of the series of "not so fast, Democrats" posts this week is how they systematically miss the point that the election result was the product of some profound demographic shifts that have been underway for a while -- accounting for 4 out of 5 Democratic victories in the popular vote -- were arrested a bit by the terrorist attacks, but have resumed and will continue indefinitely.
Within a few decades, this will be a majority-minority country. Long before that, if Republicans don't drastically narrow their gap among Hispanics, people with college degrees, and the not-dying, they'll become an Appalachian regional party. How well President Obama performs in office is close to irrelevant to the final outcome.
This week's output has been positively Kausian in its ignorance of basic statistical realities and reliance on professional counterintuitiveness in place of insight -- and Megan is usually so much better than this, which is why it's disappointing.
"The independents did not want to stomp the Democrats in 2004, and they do not want to stomp the Republicans now."
Well, actually a lot of independents specifically DID want to stomp the GOP. Not for idealogical or partisan dem reasons of course but becuase they thought that the GOP deserved to be stomped.
My dad is 72 and switched to being an independent after being a Republican all his life. He voted for Obama specifically becuase of how much he now hates the GOP.
Its been fascinating to me becuase we used to argue about this all the time.
Well said, Megan. Wise words that will get shoved aside in the hurricane of faceless venom that I knew would ensue (and now that peruse the comments: HAS ensued).
I'm with you entirely...expect that I voted for Kerry in '04. :)
And while I chose the third party route with a vote for Bob Barr, I prefer that fact that Obama won to the idea of McCain winning.
What DID concern however was the expansion of Dem majorities in Congress. I think the tsunami tidal wave of blowback on the GOP went a wee bit too far inland.
As a nonpartisan independent, I think moderate America's rejection reflex was a little over-measured and bit a late. Bush is already on his way out and the Dems have already had both Houses for two years.
If Kerry had won in 2004, I think we'd be in a more balanced position. The time for blowback is a little late.
The coverage I have seen and read has had next to nothing to do with stomping on McCain's bones, but rather has been almost universally positive about the hope and happiness that Obama's win has engendered. I suspect that your avowed unwillingness or inability to be affiliated positively means that that you cannot participate in this happiness. Fine. Be a curmudgeon, but stop pissing on the parade with false observations.
A puzzling argument. She objects to people celebrating the loss of the opposition, but in her account of the role of independents makes clear that she thinks the election was in fact a repudiation of the opposition. So she would seem to be objecting to people getting the election right.
But mixed in with this is the idea that the mistake is not in fact talking oneself to have a mandate. And she claims that the last two elections in which the winning side has taken itself to have a mandate has produced a backlash. But it is hard to know what two elections she has in mind. If it is congressional elections, then we have 2004 which produced a backlash and 2006 which produced further gains.
If she is talking about presidential races, then we have 2004 which produced a backlash and 2000 which did not.
It almost seems that she is counting 2008 as an election that produced a backlash because she has buyers remorse.
In fact, it seems more likely that the backlash is not tied to people's being offended by the reaction of the winning side so much as to the success of the policies that are pursued. If Obama pursues liberal policies and a strong economy results will Independents really turn on him because they think his supporters were to boorish in victory? That seems unlikely.
Anyone who DIDN'T EVEN VOTE (apparently) like you, Megan McArdle, has no business criticizing anyone else for their behavior. I mean, get real.
I'm an proud independent and I did indeed want the Republicans to get stomped in both 2006 and 2008. They had taken the train to crazy-town and I felt a good stomping would be the only thing to return the party to sanity. And now, I'm thrilled they got stomped. But I'm not gloating or being nasty to people who voted for McCain. I'm just happy. In my circles, I actually haven't seen anyone acting nasty or vindictive. Now, I am also hopeful that the GOP will take a good, hard look at the party and try to return to a platform that appeals to moderates like me. But after all of the absolutely awful things the Bush administration did--and conservatives wholeheartedly supported--it will take a lot of work to convince me to vote for them again. Personally, I don't think that will happen for a few election cycles, if ever. If the GOP continues to be the party of religious absolutism and intrusive government while ignoring real conservatism, I'll never vote for them again.
If you want an example of gloating and McCain stomping, go up to Voices, move your mouse over to Andrew Sullivan and start reading. Way to stay classy Andrew.
One thing: I think Obama gets this. His acceptance speech came off, at least to me, as less celebratory and very aware that he's been elected, not coronated. "I will be your president too" and so forth.
For the past two presidential elections, I've voted for the winning candidate.
And you lost me right there. Sorry, but I have a hard time seeing a vote for Bush as anything other than either immoral or ignorant of what we'd been doing in the world up unto that time. I don't think that's boorish, I think it's thoughtful.
And though I know it's out there, I haven't seen a lot of boorish behavior since Obama was elected. Mainly just celebration. Jubilation even. But if you voted for Bush last time round, you probably w on't get that.
Your point about the independents, however, is well taken.
I'm ain't a Democrat.
What Daniel Koffler said.
I am one of those boot-in-face people because whom I vote with has become more important to me than whom I vote for. I disaffiliated with the Republican Party in 2004 when I realized that I had been voting with racists and homophobes. The Republican Party can't survive without these people and this election has made clear that it can't survive long with them, either. That's something to celebrate.
The only reason McCain was close among Independents is because many 2004 Independents are now called "Democrats". Why do you think voter partisan ID grew to a 10 point gap in 4 years? Because Democrats had a lot of babies 18 years ago??
A large chunk of Independents became Democrats because of Bush. Hell, I was a Republican in 2000, an Independent in 2004 and a Democrat in 2008 thanks to W.
Depends on where you live. I happen to live in the bastion of liberal politics in the NorthEast. If you so much as question any of Barack's ideas, you are treated like a pariah. After all, you might be a Republican enemy of the state. It would be funny if it weren't so stupid. But people in NYC will get very in-your-face and ugly about it. I had eight years of "Bush is Hitler", "Rethuglicans this and that", etc - and that's without me saying anything. I was afraid to. If Barack does the same thing as Bush, he'll get a pass. It's a blood sport.
Still not specific examples. If it's so bad in the ultra liberal and intolerant Northeast, the least you could do is come up with three specific examples. I've got one for the way tolerant south: the Obama hung in effigy in Kentucky (I'll get you a link if your Google button is broken).
See? Not too difficult.
OK, your turn.
Megan --
Democrats have been virtually demonized by the right for a long time. It continued this year. (Michelle Bachmann, Sarah Palin rallies, Randy Hayes, Dole's "There is no god" ad, etc. etc.) Liberals do not "hate America." Witness the spontaneous singing of the national anthem in front of the White House Tuesday night. Suggesting otherwise is demagoguery of the lowest rank.
If Democrats want to celebrate their yanking the country toward sanity a little bit, who can blame them?
For a "normal" election, I would share your sentiment.
But the end of the Bush-Cheney era is no 'normal' time.
Few have governed with an almost unbridled arrogance. The iconic image of the same is Tom Delay hoping aloud that people would see Jesus in his mug shot.
And, if you are still unconvinced by that, all I have to say, echoing those infamous words, is that "Democracy is untidy".
"Funny thing is I moved here from the conservative South under the impression that liberals are more accepting of different ideas"
Liberals are more accepting of different ideas. What does that have to do with the present discussion? Conservatives have no ideas, just different methods and timetables for the elimination of personal freedom and the destruction of the constitution.
First time here. I haven't seen the things you have been talking about, Megan, in my own little corner of the world as a pastor. But I am sure that they are there.
Celebration is ok, right? I am glad Obama won. There are people in my congregation who are sure that it is impossible to be a Christian and a Democrat. I don't preach politics, but they think I should: conservative politics.
I disavow the hate speech from both sides, and say that Christians have the responsibility to be a part of a civil civic conversation (not dialogue, because there are more than 2 sides, right?)
I found some of the Obama blogs even before the election mean-spirited. But then I got in the middle of a conservative blog-ring, and the hate made my hair stand on end.
Where will it end?
Maybe some independents need to invest in organizing a viable third-party alternative. Dean Barkley in Minnesota thinks that is the case.
Every time we have an election, the partisans confuse the fact that the independents disliked the opposition candidate, with the idea that the independents joined their party.
We're really sincere in our disdain for Palin, though. Put her up again in 4 years, and we shall demonstrate it anew.
ed,
I'll take that one. How about the Sarah Palin mimic hung in effigy in oh-so-liberal and accepting California. (You know, the state that just banned marriage for a slice of its populace). Try your Google button since you seem to like that. See? Not too difficult.
Players from both sides acted abysmally both during and after the campaign. Arguing about who behaved the MOST ABYSMALLY is kind of depressing, actually. If one is to claim a moral high ground, one should at least be on moderately high ground, not just less below ground than the other side.
If you have not seen the new South Park episode covering the election ("About Last Night"), you really should. It captures the ridiculous celebration/despair dichotomy very well.
I teach at an alternative high school. I have thus far been unable to convince my students that not everyone who voted for John McCain is a racist. The hate Megan describes is entirely real.
Last night's South Park did a nice job of mocking some of the extreme reactions to the election.
Does this really surprise you?
I mean really?
This is the defining characteristic of most political partisans.
Players from both sides acted abysmally both during and after the campaign. Arguing about who behaved the MOST ABYSMALLY is kind of depressing, actually.
Nice try with the wishy-washy, namby-pamby, laaaaaammmmmeeee false "they both do it" equivalencies. One side is far worse. Guess which one it is. I double dog dare you.
I promise to stick with my 100% track record of not blaming or crediting either Congress or the President with the economic fortunes of the nation, unless something Really Amazingly Different happens.
(By which I mean something along the lines of Nixon's price control scheme or the National Recovery Act (or notionally a massive reduction in spending, taxes, and regulation, but let's live in the real world, shall we?).
Fortunately, the possibility of something like that is very, very tiny - especially for the reasons outlined in your following post.)
It helps that I'm not a partisan, and have no emotional investment in either party's fate (while I typically prefer the Republicans on foreign and economic policy, of the two, I'm certainly not a party member or activist, and voted for some local Democrats in both of the last two major elections.
(I'd love to vote Libertarian more, but the LP's penchant for isolationism and general nutbaggery is something I'm not willing to endorse at a level higher than State Treasurer.)
Megan,
Look on the bright side, now that the election is over, you can totally rescind your completely bullshit support for Obama! Just think of the endless column space you can milk out of how disappointed you are at him not repealing the capital gains tax or abolishing all unions.
Because at the end of the day that's what being an online libertarian is all about! You get to criticize liberals without ever having to own up to what an abominable failure Republican rule of this country has been. You get to all of the lib-bashing to satisfy your fans--which to a person are all far right reactionaries--with the plausible deniability of never having any real world example to answer for any of your ideas or beliefs.
This is the best thing that ever happened! As soon as Obama starts governing like a centrist Democrat, you can simultaneously attack him for not being left or right wing enough...either way you and your fantasy worldview win!
i've been very moved by the tearful reactions of some obama supporters, from the (wo)man on the street to colin powell. i simply wish megan paid as much attention to these people as she did those who acted like, as she mentions, total children.
anytime 63 million people do something, there is going to be anecdotal evidence to support nearly any assertion about those people. given that, if we are going to talk about how some are reacting, let's not point out the nastiness inherent in every election cycle, but rather, on the extraordinary aspects of this moment.
to focus on the obvious and predictable when you have four-star generals nearly in tears on national tv seems like a waste to me.
ed--
All you have to do to get the examples of "mean-spiritedness" you arrogantly demand is go back upthread and read your own posts.
Megan,
I'll let you in on a secret: South Park is fictional, and random anonymous comments on blogsites are not representative.
Hate speech is obviously to some extent in the ear of the listener. The 'non adult' reactions reveal that democracy is to some extent a treatment for hubris. Hubris is that excessive pride and self valuation that leads to failure from the mistaken judgment.
It's tiresome when you keep attacking caricatures.
As you sow so shall you reap...
The gloating, mean spiritedness and juvenileness mentioned by Megan is certainly not just confined to political comments. It speaks very poorly of our country.
I astounds me that adults would refer to things like Microsucks vs Crapple. Then they will have temper tantrums over the two.
If you look at comments in reference to the auto company news, you will find hate filled screeds about this company or that company with the commenter fervently hoping they go bankrupt. How is it good for most people if any company goes belly up? Why wish for hurting any number of plain old people who just want to earn a living?
Such behavior becomes even more sad when you realize that many of the people making the juvenile comments are college grads, who are supposed to be able to reason.
By the way, I walk my dog so I see all sorts of stuff in the neighborhood (of about 3000 people). This year I saw exactly one bumper sticker for a presidential candidate. My theory is that people are afraid of getting "keyed". That's pretty sad.
Megan's always been like this guys, even when it was janegalt.net. There's really no surprise at this point for any longtime readers.
ed,
Thank you for at least admitting that "your side" is bad, and that this election was about the lesser of two weevils.
Honestly, as many commenters have shared, after being called terrorist sympathizers and everything else along those lines, how can you not expect some gloating?
Excellent post. As an independent, I agree that this needed to be said. Many of us (most?) voted against the other guy; we are happy to remain independents and have no intention of becoming Democrats.
I also find there is another problem the left will be facing. When the far right starts in with the anti-Obama vitriol, it will be difficult to take any moral high ground. After 6+ years of Bush=Hitler, etc, I fear the hard left has moved the standard of how far too far is too far.
Excellent post. As an independent, I agree that this needed to be said. Many of us (most?) voted against the other guy; we are happy to remain independents and have no intention of becoming Democrats.
I also find there is another problem the left will be facing. When the far right starts in with the anti-Obama vitriol, it will be difficult to take any moral high ground. After 6+ years of Bush=Hitler, etc, I fear the hard left has moved the standard of how far too far is, too far.
I am a liberal, Democratic-leaning voter. I voted for Gore in 2000, Kerry in 2004, and Obama in 2008. But when I saw the expression on Mr. McCain's face during his concession speech, my heart went out to him as I recalled similar expressions of grief on Gore and Kerry's faces. I obviously can't feel what Mr. McCain felt, but having seen two candidates lose who I was persuaded would have done a better job as President, I empathize with the pain Mr. McCain and his supporters feel for his loss.
I've been standing on the other side of that fence for 8 years, and I don't see now as the time to gloat. Now is a time to take stock of what has been given to Mr. Obama. Now is the time to realize what a daunting set of tasks await him. I wish him good luck because he will need every bit of it.
Had Mr. McCain prevailed, he would be confronted with everything that Mr. Obama will be compelled to address. I do not envy either man their respective task. For Mr. Obama, it's "Prove your leadership in a very difficult economy" time, and for Mr. McCain, it's patching yourself up, cleaning and stitching up your wounds, and seeing what you can do tomorrow to make a positive difference.
That is my sober vantage point. For those McCain supporters who feel Obama supporters are giving you the bum's rush, I extend sincere condolences. I hope our new President and all of our Congress Critters are successful because failure in the economic crisis we now face is not something I wish to contemplate. It won't end well for any of us if our leaders screw things up.
After 6+ years of Bush=Hitler, etc, I fear the hard left has moved the standard of how far too far is, too far.
Yeah, except the "Bush=Hitler" bulljive (citations?) came from wacky blog comments. The Wall Street Journal peddled Vince Foster conspiracy theories and other crap. Again, both sides do bad things, one side is far, far worse. False equivalencies make the baby Jebus cry.
Thank you for at least admitting that "your side" is bad, and that this election was about the lesser of two weevils.
Some members of my team do bad things. I'm not convince my side is bad. The other side's official strategy since Nixon has explicitly and implicitly been fear and hatred (Southern Strategy et al). So no more false equivalencies, please.
Buyer's remorse?
Megan, you've got it in spades now..
Good lord woman, take an inhaler puff and turn the internets off for a day.
I hear you Megan. I didn't mind McCain, but lost respect when the party proper bent him into something he's clearly not. Watching him try to justify "pals around with terrorists" to Letterman was just painful. In stark contrast, hearing McCain say that Obama was 'his president' got me all bleary-eyed.
If there's one bit of schadenfreude, it's that I hope all those people with 'love it or leave it' bumper stickers realise what a stupid, anti-democratic turn of phrase that truly is.
Yeah, except the "Bush=Hitler" bulljive (citations?) came from wacky blog comments.
Obviously you don't live in California. :)
You're missing the root cause of the delight in the demise of the republican hold on the white house. The hatred stems from a party that let a guy run the country who had a truly unique combination of arrogance, incompetence and power.
Bush completely trashed a huge number of American/conservative values (the rule of law, personal responsibility and accountability, and the idea of a meritocracy to mention but a few) and this is the reason he is so reviled. I'm an independent who had no problem with the first Bush, but his son was a complete embarrassment.
I would have taken no great pleasure in McCain's loss had he not been transformed in to a monster by his own ambition. Before this campaign, there was much to admire about JM, but he threw it all away and basically acted just like Bush had done -- trying to scare people into voting him, demonstrating colossal incompetence (with his Palin pick), and backing away from all the good things he'd ever said. His use of Rovian techniques was truly ironic given his own destruction by them in the 2000 campaign.
Yes, I'm glad McCain lost -- not because he's a republican/conservative, but because, like Bush, he's an ass....
If Obama acts like Bush/McCain, I hope everybody is happy when he loses..
Weirdo wins for the Patrick O'Brian reference.
Thanks for that.
I think a lot of Dems fail to realize that if McCain had gone Karl Rove/Lee Atwater negative from June, he might have won, particularly if the banks hadn't detonated. And maybe even if.
With the exception of a few desperate weeks, he kept mostly on policy and ran a pretty clean campaign.
I have a lot of respect for him for not taking that poisoned chalice.
I have a lot of respect for him for not taking that poisoned chalice.
Except that he did take the chalice. He, McCain himself, called Obama a Socialist. He led beer hall style rallies where the peopele screamed "terrorist" at the mention of Obama's name and did nothing to stop them (until he got called on it and rejected the format). McCain, himself, said that Obama was "palling around with terrorists." Are you serious? These weren't surrogates (although there were plenty of them too), but the candidate for Prez. Please, I beg of you, don't fall victim to this bogus McCain worship the David Broders of the world are selling. Pay attention.
All you have to do to get the examples of "mean-spiritedness" you arrogantly demand is go back upthread and read your own posts.
Careful when clutching your pearls like that, honey, you might harm them.
We have invaded our own country through our educational system, by not taking an affirmative stance on illegal immigration, through the welfare system, and allowing the portions of our country to be invaded by gangs and low life people. We only have ourselves to blame. Now, the country has spoken to give more power to those sectors who have contributed not to the betterment of the country, but to its demise. Unfortunately, many could not discern that they are products of the gray areas; they stand for nothing and when asked, are confused or sputter nonsensical prefabricated statements for which they are not cognizant of their real meaning. " Yes we can. Change. "
400+ point plunge of the DOW two days in a row. That's right Obama's the man. Pelosi wants more money and Reid wants to get rid of Lieberman , oh yeah ... We must unite the country---as the Chinese say May we have an interesting four years.
Thanks for your concern, Stephanie S.
One thing though. When you say
and
what, exactly, do you mean? Could you be more specific, using particular examples? What do you mean by "gangs and low life people"? Who has contributed to this country's demise? How? Sorry for so many questions, but it's important. You know, country first.
400+ point plunge of the DOW two days in a row. That's right Obama's the man.
Also, not to nitpick, but I'm pretty sure the DOW's plunge, as with 9-11, the economic downturn, and the disastrous Iraq Invasion, happened while George Bush, Jr. was [technically] President.
Bush doesn't equal Hitler, but he's still a war criminal and an amoral scumbag who made torture the public and official policy of the United States government.
"Perhaps I'm getting too testy. For the past two presidential elections, I've voted for the winning candidate. "
In 2004 you voted for a war criminal and a torturer. "Testy" about what? You should feel humility and gratitude over the fact that two-time Bush voters aren't all being deemed moral lepers by the rest of the citizenry. After all you condoned in 2004 there should be some shame in your portfolio. That the opposite seems to be the case makes me wonder how many more violators of human rights you'll be voting for in your lifetime.
Something similar to this has been bothering me as well... Please, let's do act like adults and not name call and degrade simply because we have differing opinions. This type of behavior makes me really wonder if we can have CHANGE.
And for those who are "Show Me's" here are a few examples of where the "mean-spiritedness" during and after the election:
1. "A fellow woman calling Sara Palin a bitch."
This is ironic seeing that our sex has fought so hard to get respect, rights and power in this country, and the moment a woman, whose views we don't agree with, has the chance to get what we've worked so hard for, we name call. Shame. If you don't agree with her state why, oppose her views. Run for Vice President yourself, I'm sure it's no easy task. Whatever you do please do not degrade our sex by calling her a bitch.
2."Members of my family telling me Obama was a terrorist because he was Muslim"
Uh... Really? You're Irish Catholic does that make you drunks? Seriously people, critical thinking. Think before you speak.
and finally,
3. "Making fun of McCain's disability from being a POW. Calling him 'Lobster Claws' and mocking his inability to wave 'hello'."
*Wow*
Words can't describe how this made me feel. My heart hurt. It honestly made me sick to see my fellow Democrats mocking others disabilities when we have worked so hard to help others with theirs... when those I respected, I thought were more emphathetic, tolerant and understanding than most, belittled someone simply because he was different than you... Do you see no irony in that?
Sigh... I hope people understand, this isn't about a party. This isn't about an election. It's about being human, TRULY making this place we habitat a better place to live by not spewing hate and being tolerant of other's views.
Overall it is troubling to see how divided we are, especially in a time where it hurts us most. What makes it even worse is how stubborn we can be. There isn't only one solution. Your way isn't always the best way. Two heads really ARE better than one.
How do we expect big change, if we are not willing to change a little for the betterment of all?
United we stand and divided we fall.
"If you want an example of gloating and McCain stomping, go up to Voices, move your mouse over to Andrew Sullivan and start reading." rtb
You really can't count Sullivan. He's like a guy who divorced his wife, the GOP, and now can't shut the heck up about what a bad marriage he had. Or like an ex-smoker or David Brock.
Although I've not seen much bad behavior from Obama supporters since he won, I'd agree there was some beforehand. A prominent Canadian doctor feared that Palin would encourage women not to abort if they had a Down syndrome baby and there were plenty of "retard" jokes about Trig. There was ads implying McCain hated Mexicans or that made fun of him being old. There were several attempts to show McCain supporters to be racist thugs.
However the McCain side was in many ways worse. Anyway all that's over now. I think there are enough good people on both sides it's really not been unusually negative since Obama won. (There's always going to be some snots) I have great respect for Obama and what he has accomplished even if I don't agree with him on much. I also have great respect for many who voted for Obama. My "favorite" sister likely voted for Obama.
Note: I wrote in "Ben Nighthorse Campbell" in 2004 as a protest vote favoring an American Indian Republican for President. I only voted for Bush once, in 2000, when I thought he was going to be a "compassionate conservative." I figured that meant more concern for Mexicans and the poor while otherwise being conservative. By 2004 it was clear it was nonsense and he was an inarticulate man who made us look bad.
I think Megan is being far to generous. As far as I'm concerned, anyone moved to tears or song by something like an election result is WAY too childish and emotional.
Well unless they are personally getting (or losing) a senate seat or their own private pork barrel. I'll concede that.
Hold it right there, MM. Didn't you say that you were neither registered to vote in DC, nor New York?
How, pray tell, did you vote for the winning candidate this year? And assuming you did, without registering to vote, how many others who didn't register to vote also managed to vote for the winning candidate?
Ahhh......I think I see the reason for all the back-slapping congratulations amongst BO "voters"
Ed--
The Dow plunging would have been in one inch typeset if McCain had one--
Low life gangs are the people who like to push other around thugs. This is not a cultural or racial slur I am part Mexican all American--Socialism is a gang or thug mentality and it begins when there are great economic down turns. Study what Marx and Lenin have written. I was a student of Howard Zinn's at BU. Zinn in fact endorsed Nader.
Look at the BIG money that came from Hyde Park in this election. I am not talking gangs from the movie images or the inner city or a culture but a mentality.
Low life's, the one who say that people cling to their religion and guns...
Remember your Marx-- if God did not exist one would have to invent him .
More specifically Khrushchev said "that the your own working class will bury you." Lenin says that to sow the seed will lead to generations of believers. He was referring to schools. There is a lot of specifics. History needs to be read and re-read right now.
Obama comes from big money Emanuel was one of the top receiver of funds from lobbyists not just the $ 25 dollars here and there. Read Read Read .
We need to block the union card check; keep the airwaves safe( Fairness doctrine) and to keep a strong two party system. This is not about a candidate of color this is about keeping Democracy strong and individual freedom even stronger. Chanting Yes we can. We can do what?? Where are their specifics? As a teacher I have been appalled that 3 days of celebrating and no teaching has been going in some classes. What do sixth graders need to know about this election except the results. Yes, three days of Obama rama and don't protest too much or you know then you will be called a racist.
I realized three days after the election why I wasn't caught up in the elation. Not because I did not vote for Obama but because I am color blind. For some odd reason it didn't really seem that big of a deal to me. It does now. No longer will I allow myself ever to hear a person say that they are victims of racial bigotry and that is why they cannot get ahead. I have been ridiculed for not speaking Spanish or for not being ethnic enough. I am proud everyday to be a free American and I have never felt that we need to be popular or vindicated as good in the eyes of the world. So many people have said now they like us again . Who? Who likes us Europe, China the Middle East. ? Yes they like us they like to come here and make money. America has become a cash cow for legal and illegal immigrants. I have seen people spit on the ground and say I hate America while they run a state licensed Smog only station in Southern Calif. ( The person said he was from Palestine.) Why are you here? To make money.
Now that we are broke --Will they go home/
What do you think Ed?
Ed--
The Dow plunging would have been in one inch typeset if McCain had one--
Low life gangs are the people who like to push other around thugs. This is not a cultural or racial slur I am part Mexican all American--Socialism is a gang or thug mentality and it begins when there are great economic down turns. Study what Marx and Lenin have written. I was a student of Howard Zinn's at BU. Zinn in fact endorsed Nader.
Look at the BIG money that came from Hyde Park in this election. I am not talking gangs from the movie images or the inner city or a culture but a mentality.
Low life's, the one who say that people cling to their religion and guns...
Remember your Marx-- if God did not exist one would have to invent him .
More specifically Khrushchev said "that the your own working class will bury you." Lenin says that to sow the seed will lead to generations of believers. He was referring to schools. There is a lot of specifics. History needs to be read and re-read right now.
Obama comes from big money Emanuel was one of the top receiver of funds from lobbyists not just the $ 25 dollars here and there. Read Read Read .
We need to block the union card check; keep the airwaves safe( Fairness doctrine) and to keep a strong two party system. This is not about a candidate of color this is about keeping Democracy strong and individual freedom even stronger. Chanting Yes we can. We can do what?? Where are their specifics? As a teacher I have been appalled that 3 days of celebrating and no teaching has been going in some classes. What do sixth graders need to know about this election except the results. Yes, three days of Obama rama and don't protest too much or you know then you will be called a racist.
I realized three days after the election why I wasn't caught up in the elation. Not because I did not vote for Obama but because I am color blind. For some odd reason it didn't really seem that big of a deal to me. It does now. No longer will I allow myself ever to hear a person say that they are victims of racial bigotry and that is why they cannot get ahead. I have been ridiculed for not speaking Spanish or for not being ethnic enough. I am proud everyday to be a free American and I have never felt that we need to be popular or vindicated as good in the eyes of the world. So many people have said now they like us again . Who? Who likes us Europe, China the Middle East. ? Yes they like us they like to come here and make money. America has become a cash cow for legal and illegal immigrants. I have seen people spit on the ground and say I hate America while they run a state licensed Smog only station in Southern Calif. ( The person said he was from Palestine.) Why are you here? To make money.
Now that we are broke --Will they go home?
What do you think Ed?
What do you think Ed?
Well, StephanieS, truthfully:
I think that was some seriously incoherent Right Wing rambling.
I think that's almost impossible to believe that you are really a teacher (Really? What do you teach? I'm guessing at a radically religious private school).
I think it's sad that you write so disparagingly about legal immigrants.
I think it's beyond pathetic that you call yourself colorblind, unless you're some sort of Stephen Colbert/Medium Lobster hybrid super-species which delivers a level of ultra-satire which I am constitutionally unable to comprehend.
I think you should be embarrassed by writing "We can do what??" when a simple Google would get you here.
I think that the Republican party is in worse shape than I thought it was before I read your recent post.
I think you should seek professional psychiatric help and/or should stay on your meds. Really, I do. It would be for your own good (unless you're the hyper-satiric hybrid I noted above). I'm not kidding.
Ed, I am not the only person that is color blind in the world. It's because of where and when I was born. In Southern California years ago there was a time when people truly seemed to not see or act upon someone color or race. A colleague of mine same age , both 48 has said the same thing about the era we grew up in. I am full of satire but not like Stephen Colbert. This is legitimate color blindness. In the NY Times a columnist daughter has said something very similar to her mother when the mother was celebrating Obama's victory. Is it that big of a deal? Since in the daughter's eyes there has been equality throughout her entire life. I realize historically, don't get me wrong that this is huge. Its this outpouring that somehow we are now good again. My belief is that we usually do the right thing. That we are good. Why do we hate ourselves so much? I think there is a book out there with title. " Why we hate us" I don't know if it is Liberal or Conservative but I guess I am not the only one who thinks , why?
Change is a simple mantra. Change what? I know about taxing the rich. Then what is the next thing to change? Health care. Yes I agree the current system isn't working for anyone very well. You asked for specifics I gave them to you and now I get to be criticized for voicing an opinion and to be told to seek psychiatric treatment.
No, I teach in public school and if you had actually read the reply, I said that there was three days of celebratory talking about the election and lesson plans went out the window for three days. Now , on Monday the student's will have District level tests which they are now not prepared for. Did you see the video of the woman in North Carolina who belittled the student who's father is in the military and she said she wanted McCain. Students who are 5 8 10, need to learn to read and right. Have a short positive discussion and then get back to the lesson. Leave the indoctrination at home or for the Universities. I am not right winger I just do not like our country being put down and hated because of who our President is or isn't. In 1977 I went to Europe. The French made fun of Jimmy Carter because he was a peanut farmer. I guess they didn't check out that he had been a physicist as well.
I think its sad that some legal immigrants spit on the ground when they tell me to my face that they hate America. I wrote then "why are they here?" The man's response was " I am here to make money then go home". Is that everyone no, but during the last 4 years there was a lot of hating going on towards America. If you think that America will get a free ride because the new President says "Change", I think that is rather wishful thinking.
I will be careful not to make disparaging remarks back to you. I have noticed with some liberals and or other people who do not agree with my opinions, when they do not like what you say they attack...Joe Biden is a good one to watch. Have you noticed that Biden has been muzzled since he said Obama would be tested early on.
Have a nice Sunday Ed, don't worry too much about the Republican Party. Your guy won.
I live in a red state, and I have seen more meanness from the losing camp than from the winning camp. I am even afraid to check my fave blogs on my campus because there are so many Obama haters.